Transmission problems with Lexus ES?

texas83

As some of you have read in my previous posts, I'm on my second new ES 300. I kicked Lexus butt in Lemon Law court. The judge drove the car and the transmssion failed twice for him. Lexus wouldn't settle until that happened. As you know, Lexus designed the software package to react to your driving style. If you drive to some place trying to make it happen, eventually the software will try and reduce the slippage effect. If you want to make it happen.... baby the car for a couple of days..... then let someone try it. Unfortunately, my new Lexus is worse in some ways than my old one, but also better in some ways. Unfortunately, it is still unacceptable. Someone asked if this is the same tranny as in the Camry. I can assure you it is not. I wish it had the Camry tranny. From driving loaner cars, I can say that some cars are worse than others. Keep complaining. You will note that the ES 300 is the most advertised car of the Lexus group. I have to believe that is because it isn't moving as good as they'd like. Financially, I'm way ahead with the Lemon Law proceeding. This car drops in value like a rock as soon as you drive it from the dealership...... 20% at least.

atoews

Haven't posted on this topic for awhile, but since there seem to be a new crop of posters, thought I'd restate my opinion.
1) I am an owner who feels the problem, but does not think it is that big a deal.
2) I have driven several 2002/3 ES300s and I can create the same problem in all of them. My driving style at any given time impacts the degree of the problem more than any other factor. I don't personally believe that individual vehicles vary that much.

3) Because of 2), I have concluded that, no offense, a "jerky" driving style produces a jerky response in the vehicle. Drivers who never have the problem probably always accelerate smoothly. (Not that I think this gives Lexus and excuse to avoid the problem).

4) I believe the percentage of posters on this board with strong complaints does not correlate with the actual percentage of owners who experience the problem. I believe that we have a few squeaky wheels (myself included) on this board that make it seem as if all owners know about and are dealing with this symptom. But I don't think that all the sales reps, dealers, mechanics, etc. are liars when they tell you they have not heard any complaints.

5) I don't see how getting a new Lexus ES300 is in any way kicking anyone's butt. I see a lot of energy being expended more to get even with Lexus than to resolve the situation for oneself. I can't myself conceive of going to all the energy to pursue a lemon law just to get a vehicle with the same problem I had in the old one, and being happy with the outcome.

texas83

It really wasn't that much energy expended I can assure you. It costs $30. I filled out some forms and the state did the rest. Of course I had to show up for the hearing. I'm beginning to believe you work for Lexus. It's odd that someone relatively happy with their vehicle would spend much time making posts on this board. Personally, speaking there's a lot of difference from the '02 to the '03. The '02 acted up mostly when I needed power suddenly and occasionally jerked and slipped in stop and go traffic. Also, the '02 would hang in gear and after a heavy acceleration it would downshift. The '03 slips and surges like crazy in stop and go traffic..... say 5 to 20 mph. Sometimes the shifting clangs so hard my whole car shutters. That's much different than the '02. However, the '03 downshifts annoyingly just like the '02. I should have asked for my money back, but I wasn't trying to be difficult just wanted a good car. I talked to a guy in another state today. He's meeting with Lexus tomorrow and fully expects a load of BS from them. Listening to his problems, they are somewhat different than mine. He says his 87 year old grandmother complained about the car's jerky shifting. Of course, she didn't know anything about a tranny problem. A friend of mine has an '03 and hasn't had any problem with it. I have driven two loaners. One had the problem, not as bad as my '02, and one I didn't notice it. The out of state guy had a similar experience. As to numbers..... the Lexus Rep at my February hearing admitted one in twelve aren't happy with the transmission. If you do the arithmetic that calculates to over 6000 dissatisfied owners with sales of 80,000 by February. I would say it's a lot more than that. My dad asked a lady if she was happy with her '02. She said she was quite happy with it. My dad mentioned the tranny problems and she said "Oh yeah it does that all the time, is it not supposed to?"

toydriver

I find it interesting to see how some of you who have posted complaints about the tranny feel that part/or most of the "problem" relates to driving style. I know that if I rapidly accelerate and quickly apply the brakes in rapid succession on my old Toyota Avalon or my wife's Ford, I can feel some hesitation and "harsh" down-shifting.
However, I wouldn't consider that a normal driving style - more like someone having a bad day or road rage. I guess when I bought my ES I was looking for and now enjoy a smooth ride. I like driving to work in the "cocoon" (nick name for the ES) so I'm not stressed out when I get there.
I remember discussing different Lexus vehicles with the sales rep. He showed me the IS300 and the GS300 - both of which are more "sporty" and responsive than the ES300. I chose the ES because I enjoy the incredible interior and the quiet, smooth ride. IMO a good value and GREAT CAR.
p.s. I don't work for Lexus

daytona01

ES is the best entry luxury in the new study of JD Power...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=509&ncid=- - 1189&e=2&u=/ap/20030709/ap_on_bi_ge/auto_dependability

I did research before purchase my 03 ES... only (very) few people complained about the hesistate of the tranmission of their 02 ES... However, thanks to today internet... their complaints have been wide spreaded...

With 60+ thousands ES sold last year and every year.. I feel sorry for their unlucky.. I hope Lexus will find out a solution for them...

I love the ES for safety, luxury feature, quiet and comfort ride...

PS: if employee can drive car for free, I will wish Lexus hire me... and probably I should send my resume to Porsche too.. :-)

================================================
03 Alabaster Metallic
Premium w/ heated seat
Wood package + HID + VSC

Try (to save) to get a Boxter S to replace the Daytona in the next 3 years

garnes

Recommendation - for that price you can get an 03 Aurora. 4.0 liter DOHC V8 (same engine as the 4.6 Northstar, just a smaller bore). Real walnut, very nice leather, Bose, 5 yr 60k warranty .... They are really nice cars and with Olds going you can negotiate a great deal. Down side is that it will depreciate a lot with Olds going away. So if you don't keep cars long, you will lose a lot. They will be serviced at any GM dealership, but Cadillac would be the best as the engine and transmission are the same. Parts will be available for at least 20 years.

I have a 98 Aurora and love it. Also, a friend was considering an ES300 as they are very nice. But after testing the Aurora 4.0 and getting a great deal (I think low 30's), he bought it right there. Give it a look.

Anyway, I was just cruising the board. Please, no domestic bashing. I'm just answering a question.

wrd

My 02 Es33 has a lugging motion most noticable around 40/45 mph. It feels like it is in too high a gear. While in for service, a 03 loaner did the exact same thing. Some of you may have a different problem. The service manager at first acknowleged there was a widespread problem and said Lexus was working on a solution due by July 2003. Later, I was told by the same service manager that Lexus considered this normal drivability and there is no problem.
 Having read post#89, I called Lexus Customer Satisfaction Dept. today,August 8. I was told that a fix was released monday,August 4.and that it should be in the dealers database by now. I called my dealer, reported this, and shortly after, I received a call to arrange a service appointment. My car goes in next tuesday to be fixed. I will let you all know how it turns out.

amf1932

Here's the story of the upgrade(TSB-TC004-03) that was done on my '03ES.

1- The original ECM is re-programmed NOT changed.

2- The new software is downloaded from the Lexus Corporation to the dealers computer.

3- Dealer transfers this new software to a scan tool and than plugs it into the socket which than uploads to the existing ECM. This upload takes about 1 hour. The scan tool tells the mechanic whether the update was successful or not.

My first findings:

I was told that the fuzzy logic will adapt to my driving habits after using it for awhile. Right from the start I noticed that acceleration, downshifts and upshifts were crisper. It seemed to know what gear to go into without the hesitation. I tried this at slow speeds(0-40mph) as well as road speeds(40-80mph).

I never had the shudder that some owners complained of, so I can't tell whether that has been corrected, but from all indications it looks like it would be.

Shifts were as smooth as before this upgrade.

So far I'm very pleased with this transmission fix and I'll report back if I find anything to the contrary.

Good job Lexus.

nogermancar

TSB-TC004-03 is not a fix. Lexus has failed miserably to remedy the problem many of us have experienced with transmission for so long now.

The problem, that still exists and appears will never be fixed, is an utter lack of power when the gas pedal is pressed firmly at around 40mph and dangerously the RPMs shoot up as high as 5,000 RPM almost to red line. The gear then sticks and only when you take the foot off the gas pedal do the RPMs come down and the gear then "pops" into place.

Scary stuff when you are trying to pass a big rig while merging onto the highway going 40-60mph. There's not much time to react going this fast and only time will tell when someone will get seriously hurt from this severe problem.

The "fix" with this TSB, if you will, fixes only the cosmetic and more noticeable poor driving characteristics of the transmission so many of us unfortunate 2002-2003 ES300 owners have experienced over the last year and half. The shift points have changed, allowing for the vehicle to more appropriately adjust to our driving styles. The hesitation, shuddering, and fumbling for gears is not as pronounced as before. However, as I have said above, this is no fix for the more serious problem with our transmissions. Which is the considerable loss of power in acceleration with the RPMs going to dangerous levels while driving above 40mph.

Signed-
Very Irritated and Disappointed Lexus Customer

bartalk2

The problem you're having when you accelerate from 40mph: do you floor it (which should downshift immediately), or just try to accelerate moderately?

amf1932

QUOTE:"The problem, that still exists and appears will never be fixed, is an utter lack of power when the gas pedal is pressed firmly at around 40mph and dangerously the RPMs shoot up as high as 5,000 RPM almost to red line. The gear then sticks and only when you take the foot off the gas pedal do the RPMs come down and the gear then "pops" into place."

Since my upgrade I tried doing exactly what you tried and I no longer get the hesitating that you are having. Naturally the RPM's increase since the car is downshifting to a lower gear. Driving around 40mph I tried flooring the accelerator and the transmission downshifted and the car accelerated very smoothly without the problems that you are incurring. I DON'T have a loss of power ever since the re-programming of the ECM!

amf1932

On my previous post I couldn't replicate what you were saying about flooring the accelerator from a speed of 40mph. I now see what you mean! Today I tried this and sure enough the tachometer climbed to 5200rpm and finally went into gear after too long a delay. This is still an unsatisfactory fix!! I gave it enough time for the logic system to learn my driving habits, but that didn't help. This fix might have changed the shift points, but in general it did NOT address most of the other problems that this transmission has. I guess I spoke too soon.

richm4

Perhaps Lexus should just give up and put the old 4 speed trans back in the ES. I don't think people were having this trouble with the 4 speed transmission.

dardson1

bartalk2

In the Consumer Guide preview of '04 models, besides the bigger engine, the ES300 is supposedly slated to get what they call an "upgraded transmission," whatever that means.

amf1932

WARNING
I called Lexus Customer Service and I found out that the latest transmission upgrade for the '02-'03 ES is not reversible!!
Try to drive another car that has the upgrade and see if you like it before you have it done. My dealer never told me this and I was supposed to sign a release to have it upgraded. Lexus doesn't consider the poor shifting characteristics a defect, even thought there have been numerous complaints on this subject.

richm4

In one of this month's car mags (C&D or MT), the reviewer states that the RX330 transmission is very sluggish when hitting the gas hard. I guess it means that the trans problem will not get fixed for 04.

bartalk2

Lexus may have a general problem with their 5-speed transmissions across the board. In an evaluation of the Lexus flagship LS430, Consumer Review praised the car (naturally), but said, "Alas, the transmission is sometimes slow to downshift for passing."

And of the $62,000 SC430, Road and Track said, "Automatic shifts are seamlessly smooth, but there's a bit more delay in the kickdown than we'd like."

Ironically, Toyota's 4-speed automatics have always been praised as among the best in the business (along with GM's).

richm4

"Ironically, Toyota's 4-speed automatics have always been praised as among the best in the business (along with GM's)."

I have owned GM products for the past 15 years and have nothing but praise for their transmissions.

wrd

I had fix Tcb -tcoo4-03 done to my 02. The shudder at 40/45 is about 95% cured. The problem now is that the car is noticably slower(no pep at all) and when accellerating from a on-ramp, it feels like the engine momentarily cuts-out and then accellerates. If anybody has any info about engine computer# 89666-33442, I would really appreciate it if you could post it.

4ali

Hello,

I had computer #89666-33442 installed on my 2002 ES300. The car continues to perform great (almost perfect). I am no longer reluctant to move into the passing lane. For my purposes, the hesitation problem was solved.

In Canada, the ULEV-II regulations don't apply. Maybe that has something to do with the U.S. problems.

wrd

More miles on the trans update and it seems to drive and shift perfectly now. Earlier problems seem to have disappeared.

cxc

Our ES300 was updated with TSB-TC004-03. Under the following condition, we observed similar shudder/hesitation to that occurring at about 40 mph before the fix:
(1) The car moves at about 3 - 7 mph without applying gas for about 2 - 4 seconds (when you either follow other cars in traffic jam or make a slow turn).
(2) You want to accelerate quickly (The car that you follow speeds up or you finish making a turn and want to speed up).

tedescm1

Does the problem also exist with the new 330 ES?

atoews

Just spoke with the service manager at Motor City Lexus in Bakersfield, Ca.

According to him, the fix makes things better for city, stop-and-go driving, but worse for highway driving. He also said that once you get the fix, you can't go back.

He did not know whether the problem is in the ES330.

He said that the problem is a side effect of having everything electronically controlled and it seems to be the way of the future. I suspect that eventually, they will fix things, but in the near future, all vehicles will have problems like this when they go to the newer designs in transmissions.

I find it hard to accept that this is an acceptable condition.

kreativ

I want the Canadian non-ULEV-restricted fix. The hesitation problem still exists in the US version fix.

kreativ

"once you get the fix, you can't go back"

It sounds more like an unwillingness to have to revert back and forth between the software versions for customers, rather than a technical inability to do so.

Anyone else know of a chip that can only be written to twice before being permanent? Only ones I know of are either non-flashable (write-once), or able to be flashed multiple times.

If it indeed is technically impossible to flash back to the previous software version, that would mean you'd be prevented from having potential future software versions loaded on.

atoews

And I knew someone would want a technical explanation, but I didn't care why.

If you are correct that the Canadian version corrects the problem, then the trade-off I mentioned before must be an emmissions issue. In order to have good gas mileage, more power, at low price, and be within some states' emissions requirements, we get a transmission that hesitates. Oh, well.

As a software developer myself,(I write the Mission Computer and warfare management computer software for a military aircraft), I know that you may or may not be correct about the technical ability to reload various versions of software. It could be that the "patch" firmware is not a complete reload. If patches are sloppily written by programmers, the new code could cause incompatibilities that would not be overwritten by the earlier version. Unlikely these days, but very, very possible.

atoews

I was under the impression that you were among those who do not experience the ES300 hesitation problem. I keep track because I cannot believe that any owner would NEVER feel the symptom, although many claim the transmission is perfect.

hooray

I have a 2002 ES300 with 12,000 miles. My transmission problems have not been as serious as some of yours. But when merging on to interstates or passing at highway speeds, it does stay in fifth gear for about 2 - 3 seconds before downshifting, resulting in rather slow acceleration when you need it the most. I have learned to compensate for this by manually downshifting in to third gear when merging on to interstates or passing at highway speeds. By doing this, my acceleration is more than adequate.

Since I have found a way to overcome the transmissions computer logic, should I leave well enough alone? Or should I get the new transmission upgrade that is irreversable? I would greatly appreciate the opinions and experiences of other owners before calling Lexus with my questions. The official letter must have been written by lawyers as a CYA, because they offer an irreversible upgrade that should not significantly change the performance of the car?!?! So it is our problem if we don't accept the upgrade, but it is also our problem if we take the upgrade and it makes the situation worse.

Thanks to all for your opinions and sharing your experiences with the upgrade.

texas83

You've bought a luxury car and you shouldn't have to hold gears in a certain position or your tongue in a certain way. I was driving today in stop and go heavy traffic and simply wanting to accelerate from 10 to 30 mph was ridiculously difficult and dangerous. Like you, I feel that letter was a joke. Further, I agree with your analysis. I'm somewhat afraid to do the upgrade because the terms of that letter seem to release Lexus from further liability for the car. This is sad and I can't believe they won't fix this.

texas83

I'm scheduled for the upgrade this Friday. I'll let you know how it goes.

hooray

Thanks Tex,
This is a real Catch 22, "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. So, I really appreciate the actual results of Lexus Owners with the upgrade before taking the plunge myself.
Good luck and may the force be with you!

atoews

Wonder how much it is would cost or if it would be possible to get an ES330 engine/transmission and have them install them in an ES300. If it were possible, it might not cost as much as the depreciation on the vehicle.

Sorry if this sounds ignorant to car buffs!!!

I'll say this for Texas. He knows how to hound the big guys to get results. Maybe you can get Lexus to give you an ES330, provided the problem is fixed in the new model.

weiss4

Letter from Lexus was ridiculous!
An "enhancement" means that something works well and you can make it run better.
A "fix" means something does not work well and you need to fix it. What does "enhancement" mean for my '02 ES 300??
Aside from a very slight "bump" at about 20-30 MPH, I am not having any problems.
Perahps I am being too sensitive about this slight bump. My concern is that if something is not working properly and consistently wears away at the gears, will I face a serious trans. problem later on?? Since Lexus is not really saying that anything is wrong, it's hard to decide if I should do the enhancement that you can't reverse, or just let things be.
Any suggestions, guys(and gals too)?
Should I just leave things alone, since I am happy with trans now, or should I do the enhancement?? Thanks, Weiss4

texas83

You wouldn't believe how I've hounded them. They know me from California to Georgia and from the U.S. Senate to Consumer Reports. I've carbon copied Lexus on most of my correspondence. The squeaky wheel gets the oil.

kreativ

I'm not one of those "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" kind of people. I like to keep updated with the latest and greatest. But I would want the tranny update to fix what others have been complaining about. The one thing I would've wanted Lexus to fix (the delay when accelerating in certain situations...I should've said "delay" instead of "hesitation" in a previous post) is unfortunately something they seemed to have left untouched.

texas83 - Getting your story into a major newspaper would probably get Lexus going. It certainly worked for the Toyota "engine sludge" folks.

atoews

The problem is that Lexus is advertising the new firmware, not as better, only different. In that sense, it is only a potential improvement.

I spoke with my dealer, and the story seems to be that since not all owners experience the problem, Lexus can't say whether it is a problem, and therefore they don't advertise the new firmware as a "fix". If it were, Lexus would be putting it in all cars, not just in those cars where owners feel the problem.

texas83

Well I got the up grade on Friday. Unfortunately, I've been out of town and haven't been able to drive the car much yet. My first impressions are that it is definitely better, but is also definitely not fixed. As noted in the letter "performance will substantially remain the same". I read a couple of posts that noted a trade off and that in someways their car is better, but they noticed new problems. I haven't detected additional problems yet. That's not to say those people aren't having additional problems. Anyway... I guess I could recommend the upgrade but don't get hopes up too much.

Atoews.... I wrote Motor Trend, Car and Driver, Road and Track and Automobile. I don't know if that will get anywhere, but they were worth a try. I included many of the disgruntled anecdotes from this board, plus my own commentary. I think the newspaper is a good idea. I'm kinda short of time right now, and it actually takes a lot of time to write these letters.

tmart

kreativ

"I think the newspaper is a good idea. I'm kinda short of time right now, and it actually takes a lot of time to write these letters."

You could spend the time on just 1 well-written typed letter, and then be able to send it to multiple sources with minimal additional effort.

hooray

Thanks for the update tex. I have a regular maintenance visit to be scheduled for November, so I will make my decision on the upgrade between now and then. Right now I have to worry about a lady named Isabel since I live in Richmond, VA and I have a condo in Nags Head, NC. That puts my Lexus transmission issues down a notch on my issues list for this week!

As you have more miles with the upgrade, I would certainly appreciate your update. I am leaning towards getting it, but I don't want to make things worse or to solve one problem by creating another one.

kreativ

I haven't heard anyone say that the update actually created other problems. There was one mention in which a Lexus dealership told the ES owner it would make the car worse for highway and better for city driving. But no one actually confirmed this, and Lexus dealerships have been giving all sorts of differing opinions anyways.
General concensus amongst those who got the update is that it's been improved, but some of the EXISTING issue(s) are still present.

wrd

My 02 now has in excess of 15 hundred miles since the fix.The 40mph shudder/lugging feeling is gone. The 40mph downshift is excellent. The car is very peppy and responsive. Downside. The 1/2 and 2/3 upshift is very soft, almost as if it were slipping. This is not as aggravating as the previous shudder, but still a little annoying. An otherwise excellent,plush,stable highway automobile, I would have second thoughts about buying another until I knew this problem was corrected. I also have a 97 LS400 and I have put on hold my plans to buy a new 430 as some are complaining about shifting in them and Lexus does not seem very responsive to customer complaints in this area. P.S. Bothered by warping front rotors on your ES300? My dealer replaced mine, without being asked, with a new better quality oe rotor, complete with new brake pads and shims.N/C I notice that they do not rust at all. The original rotors rusted overnight, everynight. And they stop GOOD.

atoews

My dealer replaced my rotors free of charge on my last maintenance after I complained that the car was vibrating when I put the brakes on. My car had about 13000 miles on it at the time.

Thanks for your report on the transmission. Because of reports on this board, I'll have the fix at my next servicing.

tedescm1

Does anyone know?

pat

Pardon me for interrupting - atoews, did you get my email? I was trying to answer an earlier email you sent me. If you've not heard from me, write me again ... Sorry I had trouble getting back to you.

atoews

But I decided to give up. The problem is that a minority of owners have NAV systems. (I firmly believe this will change in the near future when people realize what they are missing). At this time, however, I think that to get enough folks interested in the NAV issue, the discussion would have to appear on the Camry, Avalon, and all Lexus model boards. I don't want to put the discussion in the "After market and Accessories" board, because I don't think that many posters will see the topic there.

It is very frustrating because the dealers don't know squat about the NAV systems. Most of them are Einsteins on the transmission problem compared to what they know about the NAVs.

My friends and I love ours (I live in a area populated by a lot of computer savvy folks) and it is our opinion that the reason that more NAVs aren't being sold is that the dealers don't know how to work them!!

When I purchased my ES300 in 2002, I was incredulous at all the effort people were putting into getting the ML without the NAV.

Almost without exception, friends with BMWs and nice new cars, who did not order a NAV system, wish they had once they see how mine works.

Anyway, thanks for letting me vent.

lexusrock

I was trying to get one with NAV but w/o ML actually. Of course they don't make ones like. So I took both, and while NAV is very nice we don't use it every day. The ML is surprisingly super and enjoyed on every ride.

I read the 2002 transmission issue and letter mentioned on this board. I am wondering did Lexus send that letter out for 2003 ES300 as well? Does 2003's have the same transmission problem?

tedescm1

I asked a Lexus service rep and he was most indecisive...you can draw your own conclusions. If the problem was fixed, I think he would have been quite vocal.