Subaru Crew: Suggestions for Subaru

ateixeira

I vote for bare-bones.

You can delete several items that would cut costs without removing any functionality:

* Moonroof
* leather
* alloy wheels
* cladding

Give it styled steel rims and the same body panels as the 2005 Outback to save on stampings.

Put the 5th seat back, in fact use the rear seat from the Outback.

Price it along side the Element, $16-20k.

-juice

p0926

I vote for bare-bones

Juice- In other words... bring back a modern version of the Brat!

Small trucks are going the way of the dinosaur

Bob- You're letting your preference for full-size trucks distort your view. Yes they have gained in popularity in recent years but the auto industry (like everything else in life) moves in cycles and what's in favor today won't be tomorrow (especially if these gas prices continue to climb). IMO there will always be a market for small pickups and while Ranger sales are down, they still sold over 100k of them in the past 12 months.

-Frank

rsholland

is a sure recipe for failure.

Frank, my preferences is not for full-size trucks, but for trucks that make sense—and that will sell. I think all the "full-size" trucks are way too big, and have said so many times, maybe not here in the Subaru forums at Edmunds, because most people here don't care for trucks of any sort. My preference, as you call it, is in mid-size trucks. Not small trucks. Not full-size trucks. Mid-size, family/lifestyle trucks; that's what I'm interested in.

All the truck manufacturers are abandoning bare-bones because nobody's buying them, except maybe contractors, which is not Subaru's market. That we can agree on. Nissan no longer offers a regular cab model. Why? Because the profits are in crew cabs and extended cabs, not regular cabs.

Bob

locke2c

so you want the smallest truck possible that can hold a 4'x8' eh?

~c

ateixeira

The Canyon can hold a 4'x8' and it's basically tanked.

It is a *tough* market. We're talking about huge investments with big risks in a hard-to-penetrate segment with loyal buyers.

Look how long it took mighty Toyota to make a dent.

I'm not saying I don't want to see one, only that I think R&D money should go elsewhere. Let's see the 7 seater, a full-size car, a coupe or two, and a minivan. Then a pickup.

-juice

rsholland

so you want the smallest truck possible that can hold a 4'x8' eh?

BINGO!

Bob

rsholland

I'm not saying I don't want to see one, only that I think R&D money should go elsewhere. Let's see the 7 seater, a full-size car, a coupe or two, and a minivan. Then a pickup.

Juice, you're not a truck person. A truck is probably the last on your list of vehicles to own. I. on the other hand, would seriously consider a Baja to replace my Explorer—if it were right and had the features and utility I want. So my list of vehicle priorities are a bit different than what you just listed.

Bob

p0926

You're right Bob, Juice isn't a truck person but I suspect he's much closer to fitting the Subaru demographic than you are ;-) I know we disagree on this but very few people really need a truck (same with SUVs) and most people would be better served just having the local home improvement store deliver those 4x8s (what every 5 years on avg?).

-Frank

volkov

Juice is right that breaking into the truck market as an import brand is a serious bloodsport. From a business standpoint I would see it coming dead last for potential market expansion for a company with 1% total market share.

Nicholas

rsholland

Juice isn't a truck person but I suspect he's much closer to fitting the Subaru demographic than you are ;-)

Frank, I don't know how you can honestly say that with all the time and effort I've put in here at Edmunds over the years.

So what is the demographic Frank? Only college-educated people in their mid-30s? Does that mean anyone outside that demographic should not be listened to? Or that demographics are rigid, and never change?

I've said my piece on this. You all know where I stand. Ignore it if you like. Time to move on...

Bob

locke2c

Bob, Frank surely meant that your desire for a truck is outside of the typical Subaru demographic-- he wasn't attacking your character, lifestyle or commitment to Subaru.

It's very hard to say from my armchair position whether the Baja sales are just due to having an undesireable product, or whether Subaru is trying to compete in the wrong market.

I will say though that once you get into a market, you should be reasonably committed to staying in it. So I'd like to see at least a v2.0 Baja... and among the wish list to make it more competitive I could definitely see fitting a 4x8 in the bed as one of the items. I'd also like to see a more truckish powerplant. The 2.5L turbo is a stout motor, but I think with a smaller, higher tech turbocharger they could make peak torque around 2000 rpm (say 2500 at worst), even if it results in a powerband that doesn't go much beyond 5000 rpm it would be a good move for a truck.

of course, a big six cylinder would be better. but that's too much money to design unless it's already been done for the Surveyor/Tribeca/Whatever.

~c

rsholland

I overreacted. If so I apologize.

Even so, that doesn't change my position or opinion on this matter.

As to demographics: they are a constantly changing and evolving item. The whole reason Subaru turbos (and Bajas) exists, is to expand and build upon the current demographics. I do agree with you that Subaru should do a v.2.0 Baja. It's gotta be better than the current model, right?

The other thing, this new and larger Tribeca platform gives Subaru a whole new "parts bin" to work/play with. They've never had a a platform this large before, so a mid-sized pickup seems like a no-brainer to me.

Bob

dcm61

... unless it's already been done for the Surveyor/Tribeca/Whatever.

Subaru Whatever reminds me of the VW Thing. I saw a Thing a couple of weeks ago in Key West.

VW may already have Whatever trademarked though. ;-)

DaveM

aarestad

While I agree that the baja isn't cutting it from the perspective of generating sales, I don't know that I am necessarily ready to jump on the bandwagon of "it must be changed". I do concede that the "it must be changed" concept may be the answer to making a hit but I would like to see Subaru give the Baja a fighting chance first.

Try advertising it! Try promoting it to niches where it would be ideal! For all we know, it could be a sleeper hit ... but a sleeper hit that noone knows about because SOA dropped the ball.

SOA could make the best vehicle in the industry with all the "must have" features that anyone would want... but if they promote it like they did the Baja, it will be just as much of a failure.

The problem doesn't lie with the Baja (although it does have shortcomings), but with the lack of support for the Baja exhibited by SOA.

The best product in the world won't sell anything without some degree of exposure through advertising.

rsholland

I agree William. SOA has pretty much abandoned the vehicle in terms of marketing it. It's a shame.

Bob

bat1161

I'll second that. I have not noticed any advertisement of the Baja for quite a while.

There are people who want it. I've noticed more on the road, including 3 or 4 on Staten Island.

Mark

rsholland

If Subaru decides to build a B-9-like roadster, I'd like to see them resurrect the "Brighton" name, and use it on that vehicle. I like it because:

• It's very upbeat. It suggests sunny days and fun, which are all the right image attributes for a roadster.

• There is a long automotive history with the name. Since virtually the dawn of cars, the drive to the beaches Brighton England has long been a cherished and storied drive. It's famous in UK and European automotive folklore.

• Today, from what I understand, Brighton England is a hot bed of the gay lifestyle. We all know Subaru has been courting that audience for some time now, so this would be just another logical step in that marketing direction.

• There is already a "Subaru" link to that name. The only problem I see is that Subaru has used the Brighton name on bottom-feeder Impreza and Legacy models. So there is already an established (Subaru) image of the word "Brighton" as being drab, cheap and boring; but that could easily be reversed with the right product and marketing.

Bob

rsholland

with the London – Brighton Classic car run.

http://www.greenwoodsexhibitions.com/london-brighton-classic-car-- run.htm

Bob

amsbear

I guess I read this sites address this too quickly. Now... what's happening in Greenwood ???

sorry

Alan
98 OBW Ltd

rsholland

Not sure I understand your question?

I was just pointing out that the London-Brighton drive has a lot of historical significance, especially among old time UK auto buffs.

When one thinks of small "roadsters," there is often a large nostalgic aspect to it. The first thing that often comes to mind are MGs, Triumphs, etc., from the 1960s and eariler. Even the Miata was inspired by the original Lotus Elan.

I'm just trying to reinforce my justification for the use of the name "Brighton" as a possible name for a small Subie roadster, that's all.

Bob

dcm61

Not sure I understand your question?

greenwoodsexhibitions.com

Alan (amsbear) read the address as greeenwood (next three letters) hibitions instead of greenwoods exhibitions. LOL.

DaveM

rsholland

http://www.subaru.ca/interface/Subaru02/WebPage.asp?WebPageID=545- - 8&Range=Forester&ModelYear=2005&WebSiteID=282

I've always been a big fan of a "loaded" bare-bones model, even if that sounds like an oxymoron.

Steel wheels, unpainted cladding, heated seats, and a moonroof. Sounds to me like a great combo of features. I'd like to see that here in the USA—and I'd like to see this same type of thinking applied to other Subaru lines as well.

This not exactly a "new" idea. It's not that uncommon to see entry-level pickups with black rubber floor covering, painted bumpers/grilles equipped with A/C, CD changer, and even power windows/doors.

Bob

dcm61

Those features would be nice to market as the Outback / Baja / Forester / Tribeca "Adventure Package" that I have suggested in the past. Exceptions: I would include alloy wheels (maybe?), more aggressive tires, and some underbody armor.

DaveM

rsholland

I say skip the alloy wheels. Steel wheels (on the Forester) have a more serious, purpose-built feeling about them.

Years ago Detroit offered bare-bones muscle cars such as the Plymouth Road Runner, which were striped down bottom-feeder models, stuffed with the biggest engine possible. Maybe it's time for that kind of idea to be re-introduced?

Bob

rsholland

someone over at nabisco, just commenting on the Forester 2.5X SE, said that's exactly the car he wants—but with the the XT's turbo!

Bob

ateixeira

To be honest, even I am now beyond the target demographic. Notice how they categorize you by age, 25-34, and 35-44? Well, I'm now in the latter group.

The way a marketing type sees it, I'm already set in my preferences, it's too late to woo me. That's not entirely untrue. I'm already a Subie nut. Why should, say, Suzuki, waste marketing moneys on me?

So when they want to bring in new buyers, they usually want young buyers, younger than me even. That elusive 25-34 year old demographic, that will establish a preference with this purchase and keep buying Subarus until the day they die!

That's how they see it.

Under 25 is great, but mostly they buy used cars or ultra-cheap wheels like Kias or Aveos, i.e. not profitable cars.

Any how...

I want that 2.5X SE! Sweeeeet! Moonroof and unpainted magic self-fixing cladding? I'll take two please!

-juice

ateixeira

YES Bob I'd kill to see an XT SE. Steelies, unpainted cladding, manual A/C, but gimme a moonroof and heated seats please.

In fact I've asked for it before.

-juice

pon1

All the more reason to go out and buy a second set of summer wheels and tires.....

rsholland

SOA Could offer a "Convenience/Comfort" package with a moonroof, heated seats, etc., as a factory option on models with all those features. Or they could just call it an "SE" model.

They offer an Outback Sport SE here with extra goodies, and now a new Forester 2.5X SE in Canada. So maybe just adding an "SE" package is the way to go, since they've already set a precedence.

I'd also like to see heated mirrors added too.

Bob

ateixeira

I could hardly believe how well those work when you showed it to me. Very nifty in the rain, not only in the snow.

-juice

rsholland

I think heated mirrors should be standard across the board. They are a real "safety" feature in the rain and snow. More so in the rain, as many drivers do not slow down that much.

Bob

cbmorton

So what do you have to do to get heated mirrors on Subarus in the US? Do they only come on certain models?

I'm actually considering the new X SE. Only CDN$1000 more for the sunroof, heated seats, cargo cover and rubber tray, the lack of all of which was a reason I went with an OBS instead of an X when I was shopping last year. Great deal.

rsholland

They come on certain models. Most (not all) Subies with heated seats also have heated mirrors. I believe the sole exception being the Baja. Not sure about the WRX with premium package...

Bob

p0926

Wow! CDN$1000 for the sunroof, heated seats, cargo cover and rubber tray is a real bargain.

-Frank

hondafriek

juice you will just have to move to Canada to get that model:-)

  Cheers Pat.

volkov

Heated mirrors are standard up here on the WRX.
Nicholas

rsholland

I checked the brochure. They are standard on our WRX sedans with the Premium package, but that package is not available on our WRX wagons.

Bob

rsholland

There is a 2-set series for almost all the Subaru models, except the Forester 2.5X, WRX STi and the Outback sedan here in the USA. They are:

Impreza 2.5 RS
Impreza 2.5 RS Sport (sedan only)

Impreza Outback Sport
Impreza Outback Sport Special Edition

WRX
WRX Premium Package (sedan only)

WRX STi

Forester 2.5 X

Forester 2.5 XS
Forester 2.5 XS LL Bean

Forester 2.5 XT
Forester 2.5 XT Premium Package

Legacy 2.5i
Legacy 2.5 Limited

Legacy 2.5 GT
Legacy 2.5 GT Limited

Outback 2.5i
Outback 2.5i Limited

Outback 2.5 XT
Outback 2.5 XT Limited

Outback 3.0R LL Bean
Outback 3.0R VDC

Outback 3.0R sedan

I suggest they add the Forester 2.5 X SE from Canada, a Outback 3.0 sedan VDC, and a WRX STi Premium Package to flush out the lineup.

Bob <bored on a Saturday>

locke2c

that's interesting! never noticed that.

~c

well ok honestly not that interesting but it looks like you spent some time thinking about it.

rsholland

rsholland

I have long complained about the new Legacy's and Outback's location of the power window switches, as the vertical inside door pull interferes with accessing those switches. Well both the new Acura TL and RL have a similar vertical door pull, but the power window switches are in front of the door pull, which is a perfect solution to my complaint.

The below link shows the new RL window switches in relation to the driver's door pull.

http://hondanews.com/CatID3010?mid=2004083146747&mime=JPG

This is the TL's driver's door. While it's hard to see the door pull and window switches, you can see a black section of the door armrest, which houses the window switches. Just in front of those switches (and out of sight&#151;sorry, best image I could find), is the vertical door pull.

http://hondanews.com/CatID3017?mid=2004083141746&mime=JPG

On both of these cars, the window switches fall right at hand. Their location is perfect. Subaru needs to do the same with their window switches.

Bob

ateixeira

We've been discussing the power gap between the base Legacy and the 250hp upgrade engines, and there is near universal agreement that something in between would appeal to a lot of people.

Basically right now you choose between Fuel Miser or Porsche Killer, with nothing in between.

While I'm not suggesting a 4th engine for the lineup, some people did suggest a taller final drive option for the GT for a little more economy, and/or enhancements to the base engine like AVSC and Direct Injection.

Fact is, most people buy the base engine, so my suggestion would be to get working on that first. Even if it made 180hp, it's not going to cannibalize turbo sales, which take you to a whole different level of performance.

-juice

rsholland

you're going to see that for '06 juice, as Subaru has already stated that H-4 engines we're going to be upgraded. I bet the base engine will have 180 HP at least.

Bob

ateixeira

Well, the last "upgrade" was a whopping 3hp.

Let's see if we get a true upgrade this time.

-juice

rsholland

AVCS across the board. Maybe even a return to DOHC?

Bob

ateixeira

That would be great, hopefully fuel economy won't suffer also.

-juice

pon1

Couldnt agree more.

Base engines need shot in arm to reduce turbo envy. In the Forester and OB, they have been essentially the same since 98 and the Leg since 2000.

JP

rsholland

Found this over at nabisco; it's a lifeguard service Baja from Coranado CA. They have a fleet of thusly equipped Bajas.

http://mrlink.hotmail.ru/OtherCars/DSCF1344.JPG

Subaru might consider offering a factory-approved rack such as this. This could address the 4'x8' panel issue I keep harping on. Granted, that would/could put a lot of weight up high, which is not good. But for those few times needed for that type of chore, I think it would be okay.

Even if you forget the 4'x8' paneling capability idea, a rack like this would open all sorts of doors for expanded use of the vehicle. It could even be designed for quick removal, with HD snap-in connectors.

Bob

rangner

I'll second that idea! It could be offered as an accessory through the dealer.

Eric

ateixeira

Looks like aluminum. Shouldn't be too heavy.

-juice