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Comments
If you live in the midwest I do know some pretty good dealers that were from $1500-2500 off MSRP.
As far as the warranty I got the Toyota $0 deductable 84 month / 100,000 mile warranty for about $950 from the same dealer. Dont pay more than $1000 for it.
So there is the best and good enough. I vote for the best when it comes to brakes and disc brakes are the best for most applications. To say anything else would be misleading people.
So now we go into the bonus round. The really adept might be wondering why Semi-trucks still use drum brakes if discs are the best? Any takers?
Just a guess.
And as I have said before, drum brakes are not nearly as subject to failure due to wetting and I for one would not want one of those behemoths sliding through a stop light, or into something (LIKE ME!) the way some of us undoubtedly have with wetted disc brakes.
My Camry's and Corolla's go 100K before they need pads on the 4-wheel discs.
Please, do not take me as being an advocate of drum brakes (I AM NOT!), just stating the facts.
And as Jake states - the star adjusts stink. Check the rear drums of most cars and you'll find they are way out of adjustment and the operator fails to note it because 70 % of the braking is done by the front brakes.
"When it starts to rain be sure and dry the (disc) brakes out before entering the corners by lightly applying the brakes."
Not just a little ad libbing in the above.
As I'm sure Paul Newman (80 years +) would advise you: "don't forget that coming out of the turn and applying too much torque in the wet will put you promply onto the infield grass."
Three times in a row Paul spun out exiting turn 2 in the wet. The word was that he pulled into the pit and said "this is my last race". Of course Kyle Petty took the wheel and immediately spun out exiting turn 2.
Without doubt when all you need to do is replace pads, disc systems are generally easy (it depends on how the emergency brake system works, turning in the piston can be a pain without the right tools). However when you also have to replace the disc or a frozen caliper they can be remarkably expensive and frustrating to repair compared to drum brakes.
There is no question that disc brakes are vastly superior in situations where massive amounts of energy need to be absorbed. Such as a race course, a place I have spent considerable time or at high speed autocrosses. However there are few times in normal driving where you need to make massive changes in speed repeatedly with little cooloff time. In most cases where you do need to do so, such as coming down a mountain access road (the other half of the hillclimb) it isn't the rear brakes that overheat and fade.
As for discs in foul weather, try driving in slushy or near freezing conditions for 60 or 80 miles without using the brakes: the build up of ice or water film can make the first seconds of braking a bit more interesting than I enjoy. Drums can also be drowned by driving through deep water and suffer the same as above, but this can be pretty rare. (I have experienced both at different times, with the disc issue being far and away more prevalent.)
To go back to the premise: rear brakes do so little work that if the system is properly engineered, it doesn't matter which system you have. Clearly, Toyota sees this, the drum system is for ABS only systems as it is capable of delivering the performance needed. For the VSC system where speedier response is needed (discs release much faster than self leading shoes disengage from the drum) Toyota has a disc rear system. Either way the brakes have been engineered to deliver good braking performance on the Sienna that meets or beats many much smaller vehicle's performance.
As a point of interest, as I recall, the Sienna that delivered the better braking performance in the testing by the car magazines was equipped with drum brakes.
A system which Toyota doesn't use on all its VSC-equipped vehicles for some reason. So the rear drums must release fast enough.
The TV comment:
"When it starts to rain be sure and dry the (disc) brakes out before entering the corners by lightly applying the brakes."
With the amount of rain they had at different times during that race I think they were referring to two things: the potential for water and mud to get picked up by the aggressive brake cooling ducts they need for endurance races (something you don't have on street cars) and the racing brake pads cooling off too much between braking zones. Street pads are much softer and reach operating temp very quickly.
You are correct, that they do save a few bucks on the drum systems, but that doesn't make them a bad solution.
Nice TLA to indicate EOL.
For racing applications and towing where the weight bias is drastically changed, rear discs are superior. But for the typical minivan application, you would be hard pressed to notice any difference whatsoever in either performance or long term maintenance costs for rear drums or discs. Minivans are marketed with safety first and foremost. If rear drums led to inferior braking results, the manufacturer would suffer a huge black eye. Something Toyota (or anyone else)would not risk to save a few bucks.
Is this just a scam to get more service work for Toyota folks, or is this maintenance really required? If I don't do all of this and then have a problem, will Toyota really look to void the warranty? I also bought an extended warranty since this was a first year production model. Thanks in advance.
Steve, Host
Umm, brakes are on the Sienna? : )
My ideal Sienna would be the Natural White 8 passenger Sienna LE with PKG 5 ($1845) + mats ($196) and have MSRP $26,931. (In my 2004 Sienna brochure it is listed as LE Package #2). The 16" aluminum alloy wheel shows 6 spokes but the written description for LE Package #2 states 16" 5-spoke aluminum alloy wheels.
Not all XLEs have rear discs.
Smug Toyota dealers and non-existent Sienna inventory have placed the Honda Odyssey ahead of the Toyota Sienna for my most probable next new vehicle. I can live without the 60/40 Split & Stow 3rd row seat and power window in each sliding door which are the 2 main improvements of the Sienna over the Odyssey.
Dealer #1 had 1 CE 8 passenger ($23,575),with Mats $196, Auto dimming rear mirror $196, Dest $540 = $24,510.
LE 8 passenger with Gp 10 $3520,and a few other items = $28,947, an XLE AWD $40,000 + and XLE Limited $40,000+.
Dealer #2 had LE 8 with PKG 5 ($1845) + a few other items for $27,210, 1 XLE Limited $39,975 and 1 XLE AWD for $39,965.
The XLE with no options is theoretically possible BUT have any actually been imported?
By comparison, there were 13 Odysseys sitting on one Honda dealer's lot: 3- EX ($27,480), 3-EX-L ($28,980), 3 EX-L-NAV ($30,980), and 4 EX-L-RES ($30,480). No Ody LX sitting on the lot. I would NOT pay $10,000 more for a Sienna XLE Limited than for an Ody EX-L-NAV or EX-L-RES if no discounts were given on either. But, I am not in the income bracket that George Bush's tax cut benefits the most.
And this would be how different from smug Honda dealers a year ago? Seriously, if you check with alot of dealers (I dealt with 25) you will find more than one that will deal. I got 1200 off my LE8 with Pkg7 last October and got exactly what I wanted. You can find one too.
"I can live without the 60/40 Split & Stow 3rd row seat and power window in each sliding door which are the 2 main improvements of the Sienna over the Odyssey."
There are some other really nice features on the Sienna that you failed to list: heated mirrors, as well as various variations on self dimming if you so desire, VSC is a massive feature, as are the side curtain airbags, much better headlights, and you will be amazed at how valuable the split 3rd row seat is when you need to carry long objects.
Do get what you want and need but don't let the dealer put you off, the right vehicel for your family is invaluable.
The CE pkg #1 was not listed on sticker but it seems like it did have the roof rack.
Regarding your comment: "But, I am not in the income bracket that George Bush's tax cut benefits the most."
Was there a point there? Do we REALLY need to turn the Sienna discussion board into a political discussion? Personally, I don't give a **** what tax bracket you are in or how you feel Bush's tax cuts benefitted you and how you feel that affects your ability to purchase a Sienna.
Maybe you would be better off with the tax cuts offered by Kerry?
First is a 6-disc CD changer with 7" NAV, not 6.5" screen. Heck, Honda did it and so did Toyota with the Lexus line.
Second is a better chrome grill and better woodtrim interior.
3rd is AFL (adaptive front lighting).
4th is SmartAccess Key.
5th is Hybrid fuel.
Am I being too picky here?
My goal is to get $4K off MSRP. Think I can do it?
The 05s will be out in Sept or late August. Hopefully the new bruiser on the block (Honda) will force a bit of humility on the Toyota dealers.
rorr: I found the Bush comment humorous, try to lighten up, your vociferous retort was uncalled for and rude. If you don't care or give a ****, then ignore it. Geez.
V8 performance, idiots!
VSC is a very valuable feature, I have it on my van and am very happy to have it. A van is not the most stable vehicle (better than SUVs and worse than most cars), so anything that can assist on poor surfaces to keep it going where you intend to go is valuable.
In my case, in western Michigan, we have snowy and icy weather with plenty of mix. On several occaisions the VSC has had to work. In one case I was driving down a multilaned divided road, a woman in a Honda Accord was just to my right and half a car length ahead. I noticed her car starting to weave side to side and I hit my brakes as her car began to swerve from side to side and into my lane. I heard the buzzer and the saw VSC light flashing. My van slowed straight and true as she went all the way across my lane and then backwards across her original lane and onto the sidewalk on the side. Several cars behind me also spun when they tried to react to her. I ascribe being able to slow and keep behind her to the VSC that kept me on the straight and narrow.
It has also activated at other less interesting times, rounding turns and coming to a stop (not just ABS).
VSC and TCS will not make a vehicle go where there is no traction or save you from impending doom in all conditions, but it can give you the edge you need to make it up the hill or avoid an accident. For me it was well worth getting. If I miss having even one accident its been worthwhile (guess its been worthwhile already).
Yes, my reply was rude.
Uncalled for? I felt, and still feel, that the Sienna board (or virtually any other board here at Edmunds) is the last place to bring politics, humorous (depends on which side of the aisle you sit, doesn't it?) or otherwise.
I can ignore political comments about as well as some other participants can ignore wwest's comments regarding FWD......8^)
because it is almost identical in length +or- 200 inches and may be an inch or two less wide versus the Sienna.
I doubt the Freestyle will be more car-like and have as much cargo capacity.