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CATs in Fords?

RoclesRocles Posts: 985
edited March 2014 in Ford
I have heard from semi-reliable sources that
Navistars contract with Ford runs out in five years
and Ford is supposedly negotiating with
Caterpillar. Any more reliable information out
there?
I think International is fine but can you
imagine CAT on the side of a Ford Super-duty? No
one would buy Dodge again!
«1

Comments

  • If cat didn't sign with Gm why would they sign with Ford. Oh ya better truck WHATEVER, both are good trucks plus GM has had a more reliable trans which is a huge issue with diesels. Take a look at the new GM diesels coming out. It buy far will out perform Cummins and Navistars.
  • RoclesRocles Posts: 985
    26Andrew,
    What planet are you from? When has GM had a more reliable tranny? Seriously?? In fact, the most fervent GM fans at this site acknowledge that the ideal marriage would be a GM gas motor with a Ford tranny. Problem about the diesels from GM is that they are unproven Don't believe any hype until they actually build the thing.
    Knowing GM's POOR record of diesels--it would be prudent to wait.
    Back to subject: Why would Cat sign? Maybe Ford can offer a better deal?? Ford has a higher demand for diesels to make it worth while for Cat.
  • ford already has a cat engine. The powerstroke is a international engine with cat designed injectors and fuel sytem. As for the trans problems ford has there problems and chevy does to. But chevy will have the king of trans with the Allison 1000 series. Also chevy might not have the best diesel engine yet but at least it is there engine. How much of Navistar does FORD own!
  • RoclesRocles Posts: 985
    Now that made sense, GM doesn't make a good diesel--but at least they make it!! Huh?
  • mpazosmpazos Posts: 42
    92 6.5L TD w/4L80E auto. 110,00 miles and have never replaced anything. Only maintenance was scheduled. Go screw yourself.
  • lvstanglvstang Posts: 150
    Sover, I understand the next GM diesel to be an Isuzu so I feel kinda stupid for not understanding your comment"at least it's their own engine."
    Mpazos, why the hostility? I'm very impressed with your luck and loyalty but you have to admit the current GM diesels haven't held a candle to the Navistar, Cummins or for that matter even yours.
  • GM now holds 50+ of Isuzu, so it kinda is there's. If you can't build it buy it. Who cares just so it works.

    mpazos I two am impressed there are those that have no problems. Unfortunately they are few (damn fuel injector pumps). I personal suggest people not to buy 6.5 turbo diesel. Although it does give job security.
  • mpazosmpazos Posts: 42
    I been hearing for 7 years that my 6.5 is a pile of [non-permissible content removed] from everyone and while they are fixing their's mine keeps running. The 92 and 93 6.5 diesel are mechanically injected so I don't think it is 'luck' that my engine is reliable. I have taken good care of it and it has taken good care of me. I just got back from a 1500 mile interstate trip and averaged 21 mpg with 3.42 gears and 33" tires. Can tow a 5000lb boat rig to hell and back with no trouble. I've become slightly defensive about the whole issue and I know the electronic injector pumps stunk. But those pumps are made by Stanadyne, not GM. The next time you dis a 6.5, dis the 94-96 as the 92-92 and 97-up are fine. By checking alldata, I see PSD and Cummins have their share of problems too but I never have told anyone not to own one or that I think they are junk.
  • mpazosmpazos Posts: 42
    92-93 and 97-up. 94-96 ok after 'green tag' rebuilt pump.
  • RoclesRocles Posts: 985
    mpazos,
    Angry Man, eh?? Next time you might want to cool off before ranting and telling someone to "screw" off. Try to have some class and take a higher road next time if in disagreement.
    5000lb rig? So what? How many Navistars and Cummins have done that with their eyes closed? I am only reporting the obvious on that motor reputation. I was TOLD by a friend who worked for GM back in 94 NOT to buy their diesel. Nice. We ended up getting the Cummins and haven't been happier. Every time we work with other contractors--they always [non-permissible content removed] and moan without exception about their GM diesels. GEE--I wonder why?
    You sound like the one guy who bought a Ram back in the 70-80's and swear up and down that it was the greatest truck ever. And I'm sure yours is but have you ever thought about why mighty GM couldn't sell the motor?
  • mpazosmpazos Posts: 42
    Rocles, the biggest reason I can see that people are buying the PSD and Cummins is so they have the extra power to take their kids to school and drive to work. Of the 5 or 6 people I personally know that have PSD/Cummins p/u's only 1 of them tow anything,anytime. Question: what are you going to tow with your new F350PSD? Typical answer: anything I want. That's the mind set. I will admit that the straight front axle on the F and D 4X4 are a more durable design, but how many people even know the difference between straight axle and IFS? And I apologize for not having enough money to own a 10,000lb boat to tow. I have never owned a Dodge anything. If the 6.5 would have crapped out early in its life, I would have gotten rid of it. I am not brand loyal to anyone who builds inferior products. My truck serves my purposes above and beyond and if someone in a F or D wants to brag about power, I'll just go get an Army 2.5 ton and say 'now what?'. I wouldn't have even made my original post except for the sarcastic bs that you posted..so shove your class.
    Go ahead and slam back, I won't be reading it. This is another topic you have screwed up.
  • Cdean, The injectors in the 444e or powerstroke are cats. The engine is a HEUI system developed by cat and navistar in a joint venture. And Cat does use that system in there 3126 engines and some of the 3206e engines. I and the reason I know this is we also sell the powerstroke. I work for Detroit Diesel. Suprise! What DDC sells an engine that cat developed Yes,but Not to my liking. The powerstroke is called a 30 series and we also sell the 530e engine that is inline 6cyl.
  • RoclesRocles Posts: 985
    mpazos,
    You are an angry weenie. I'm not part of the 5 of your six clowns who tow boats. No--I work my trucks. Spam and ruining subjects? Who in the hell are you?? Go cry to yourself at home and keep telling yourself that you're special.
    Class? Yeah--screw it, I try playing above the fray every once and awile but there is always some clown who feels inferior and gives me his "little" man complex.
    Money? Who was talking about money? For All I know, you might have more than I do! When did I bring that up? Oh....You thought I was knocking your boat size? That's a new one. I was talking about the LOAD. Sensitive?
    Ruining subjects? Hey knucklehead---I created this subject!!! Don't like what you see---don't post and mumble to yourself!


    Man, now I know what ZBAD feels like sometimes....
  • RoclesRocles Posts: 985
    cdean,
    Chevy dislikers and fans left the flock when the 94 was introduced. Trannys? I'll stick to my opinion. Alot of motorheads at C.C.racetrack and buildshops in Philly area tend to favor the Ford. I'll find out which one and get back to you.
    By the way--WHAAAAA!! You hurt my Feelings and I feel inadeqate around your disagreement!! Screw Off!!! Whaaaaaaa!!!

    Whoops! I think Mpazos took over the keyboard a minutte ago. Sorry. ;)
  • RoclesRocles Posts: 985
    That is: minute.
  • lvstanglvstang Posts: 150
    Roc, you really hurt my feelings. I'm one of them boat towing clowns. I have to go now and put on my red nose and big shoes.
  • RoclesRocles Posts: 985
    Well---Too everyone who has been hurt--Just screw off!! WHAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!! Whoops! It happened again!
    LOL!!!
    lvstang,
    Does mpsos remind you of someone? Hmmmmm, I wonder.......
  • markbuckmarkbuck Posts: 1,021
    Getting rid of the 7.3 in a couple of years, Ford's going to a 6.0 to compete heads up with the Cummins and new GMpusuzu.

    Check the other topic devoted to this.
  • RoclesRocles Posts: 985
    How is the 6.0 going to be an advantage for Ford?
  • markbuckmarkbuck Posts: 1,021
    Ford claims it. I don't really care. Hope the new motors have replaceable sleeves.
  • cdeancdean Posts: 1,110
    Roc
    old motor:
    230 hp, 500 ft lb torque, 7.3 liter displacement

    new motor claims

    300 hp?, 505 ft lb torque, 6.0 liter diplacement.

    as long as they are improving combustion and efficiency, the 6.0 is going to get better power out of a smaller engine. the engine should get 'Cummins-like' fuel economy, and be a much lighter engine, increasing truck payload, and reducing front end stress and wear.
  • BrutusBrutus Posts: 1,113
    I don't think it's fair to say that Ford is moving to a 6.0 to compete with Cummins and GM. Ford has had no problems competing with the Powerstroke. Ford and Dodge have been leap frogging over each other for several years as far as hp and torque. The 6.0L is a second generation Powerstroke that will be introduced in 2002. Initial figures indicate 305hp and 550ft-lbs of torque. The engine will weigh about 200 pounds less than the current Powerstroke. 0-60 speeds are suppose to increase from 12.5 to 9.7 and the tow rating is suppose to increase 500 pounds. Since the current tranny in the Superduty is rated to 500 ft-lbs of torque, I am assuming their will be another tranny introduced with the redesigned PSD.

    Ford will also be introducing a 4.5L Powerstroke for the 6000-8600 GVWR vehicles. It will be introduced in the 2002 Expedition, followed by the Econonline and F-150/F250LD trucks. Ford expects to sell 50,000 of these baby diesels in 2003. The torque figures appear to be in the 345 range. My guess is that the biggest attraction of this diesel will be the improved mpg since you have a lot of car buyers moving up into SUVs and light trucks. As heavy duty pickup owners, most of us have crunched the numbers to figure the payback time of the diesel option vs the improved mpg. I don't expect this sector will care much about breakeven amounts. They just want to be able to say they are getting 20 miles to the gallon with their "truck".

    A link with more info on both engines and some new vehicles (Explorer Sport-Trak) and engines (in-line 5) can be found at the site listed below. Somehow this site gets insider information. Ford has tried repeatedly to shut them down through the courts.

    http://www.blueovalnews.com/engine_page.htm

    As for GM, say you what you will about the reliability of the 6.5L, but there isn't a Chevy with the 6.5L and 4.10 axle ratio that is rated to tow more than 11,000 pounds, which is thousands of pounds below the tow ratings of Ford and Dodge.

    Chevy looks like they are planning to make a serious effort to join the leap-frogging process with Ford and Dodge when they introduce their Isuzu diesel. However, it has yet to be seen if Chevy has the staying power to keep making advances in the diesel engine area every couple of years. Ford is at 500 ft-lbs now. Dodge is coming out with one in excess of that. The new Chevy will exceed the Dodge. The new Ford will exceed them both. Dodge will build a Cummins/tranny combo to beat that. Will Chevy be there when it's their turn? Not if they take as long to make a move as they took to go from the 6.5L to the Isuzu. Only time will tell.
  • leathal02leathal02 Posts: 114
    none of the specs of the new diesels have been officially released, so i dont know if i could say all that about them.

    there are of course rumors and things like that out, but nothing is official, so i dont know if i would say that ford will outdo anything or GM will either.

    everyone knows that the PS and the cummins are great diesels. If i was in need of a truck that needed that much of an engine, i would go out right now and buy the PS, but isuzu has been making diesels for longer than more or less anyone(the PS and cummins) so they have the resources and everything to build it, and with the allison tranny in it, its gonna be one hell-of-a-truck, no doubt

    i seriously doubt a diesel engine will go from 0-60 in 9.7 sec, thats unreal, the v-10 can barely do that

    i just read that blueoval page or whatever.. they must have already produced one or something, because they sure do have a bunch of figures there, that would be pretty stupid to be "guessing" at all those figures, because some of those are fairly important.it says at the bottom internal ford documents, haha, thats too funny

    GM hasnt released its specs on its diesel, so that would be pretty stupid to do the same for the ford
    the cummins is good, but the tranny isnt worth it

    Right now at this time, the Powerstroke rules the diesel market, but who knows when the newer versions come out. This market is gettting extremely competive, but ain't it cool!!

    haha
  • BrutusBrutus Posts: 1,113
    From what I understand, the folks on the website are getting their info from Ford employees, which is one of the reasons Ford has sued to shut them down. Some of those "internal documents" actually show that Ford is doing some spying of their own on Chevy, which is influencing some of their design decisions. Know thine enemy...or rival as it may be.
  • leathal02leathal02 Posts: 114
    well if ford is spying on chevy that says one thing to me

    ford must be scared of the new diesel coming out, because if they weren't then they wouldnt be spying and they wouldn't be redesigning the powerjoke, i mean powerstroke.
  • markbuckmarkbuck Posts: 1,021
    Same logic?
  • RoclesRocles Posts: 985
    Ford scared? What of? This sounds like another pipe-dream of a Chevy fan.
  • leathal02leathal02 Posts: 114
    they had to go back to the drawing boards so that says something

    btw, if i had the option i would go and buy a PS right now, and i am a chevy person!!!
    but i dont need that kind of power so i'll stick with my '99 Z-71
  • cdeancdean Posts: 1,110
    i agree with Brutus, i don't think the 6.0 PS is a move to keep up with anyone, its just an advance in technology. Look at gas motors. Chevy and Ford have new motors that produce better power than the engines they replaced, AND they do it with almost 10% less displacement. So now technology is doing the same for the diesel. If you can get the power out of a smaller, lighter weight, more fuel efficient unit: Why not?
  • RoclesRocles Posts: 985
    lethal,
    I hear you, however, how many times has GM gone back to the drawing room? They need too, look at their HD line.

    Cdean,
    You are right on.
  • leathal02leathal02 Posts: 114
    I guess you could just plain call this competition, someone trying to make a better product and so on

    i guess time will tell which one will work out to be the best
  • RoclesRocles Posts: 985
    Allison tranny will be a good one. However, that Duramax WILL have to prove itself. GM needs that motor to save them from decreasing HD truck sales.
  • leathal02leathal02 Posts: 114
    very true, but i would take a 454 over the V-10, but thats just my opinion and a bunch of people to where i am from, but some have the stroke too, soo
  • RoclesRocles Posts: 985
    The 454 is an excellant motor. Problem is that it's mounted in an inferior HD truck.
  • cdeancdean Posts: 1,110
    my dad has a '99 3500HD with the 454. the truck has a tool body bed, with a Auto-crane on oneside, and an Ingersoll air compressor mounted on the otherside, and about 4K lbs of tools stuffed in all the boxes. this truck replaced a '94, exact same configuration, only it was diesel. i can tell you the '99 is ALOT more stable. it is incredible the ride difference and handling of the truck. with the weight of the crane and the air compressor mounted ABOVE the cab of the truck, the truck is 14000 #s and top heavy. the truck runs down the highway very stiff, but as stable as car. you really can't ask for anymore out of the truck, it is about as HD as you can get. just a look at the huge front axle and ~10-12" frame rails running below the cab is impressive. nothing inferior about this truck. other businesses have similarly equipped Fords F450s, and there is little advantage of one truck to the other, other than engine choice or personal prefs.

    plus that 454 pulls all 14000#s like a demon...
  • Rocles I work for Detroit Diesel and we also have hed very good service out of the 3500hd. We have 3 with 454 and 4L80e. All have over 300,000 miles two have 350,000 miles no problems same trans same engine same axles and all have cranes and compessors.
  • RoclesRocles Posts: 985
    sovercash,
    Sorry, but I don't believe you. If you work for Detroit Diesel then why didn't they get one of their gems in the truck? 350,000 miles and "no" problems?? C'mon--what do you actually do to these trucks? Trust me, I wouldn't buy it from a Ford owner as well. Maybe you'll have information that will make me see the light, but until then...........

    cdean,
    I was actually trying to rile up any number of the clowns that call themselves Z71something.....
    Your dad? I challenge that since it's a 99--it's still new. As for the 94 truck with the diesel---Yeah, well I was right, eh? That diesel IS NOT a good engine(sorry sover) and it's that simple.

    I never doubted the 454 people. Read my post again. Despite one true testimonial and another a little more shady, I just don't buy it. Remember? I DID BUY IT???!!!! I have tried to make excuses for the past GM trucks of my fleet but to no avail to myself. Last time I bought one? Yeah, 1995 and maybe I should go out and take a look again but Chevy has never given me any reason. Why bother when Ford pops out a real HD truck with an engine that is comparable to the 454? (V-10) Dodge with the Cummins? Sorry guys, even kcram had a good story about some truck in Jersey but I need more than the occasional story. GM needs to do better and their big opportunity is coming up with the new HD line.
  • cdeancdean Posts: 1,110
    yeah the '94 had the same problems as everyone else, fuel pump. went thru several of them. but the rest of the truck was, well, solid as a rock. not a single problem in 5 years and 100,000 miles outside the engine. really, go have a look at one, there is a LOT of iron in the 3500 HDs. he was very pleased with the truck, and only had engine problems the first year and half, then they got it fixed, and no more probs. the diesel ran with decent power too. his previous truck was a '88 Ford with the 7.3 non-turbo, that weighed in around 13,000. the '94 chevy at 14,000# definitely outran it.

    he's tickled pink about the '99, it handles great, pulls great, and is really surprising stable for being 14,000# and top heavy. several of the other service places in town bought nothing but powerstrokes in superduty's over the past years, but have now bought starting to buy chevy's with the 454s. Why? the diesels weren't that big of an advantage, and the GM truck is rated at the same weight and handles the same as the Ford. same mileage, around 10 mpg, cheaper engine by $4000, proven workhorse and tranny.

    current longevity story from GM's, two trucks at my work right now, both half tons, both used as utility-do anything type of trucks. one is a '92 350 with manual: over 320,000 miles, only repair was U-joints. the other is a '93 with 350 auto, 260,000 miles, tranny rebuilt around 200K, no other probs other than some fluid leaks. 3 other company early 90's chevy's with 350s that all have between 120,000 and 200,000 miles, no probs on all.

    my truck is a '94, i just hit 100,000. i tow ~4500 almost everyweekend. and i think i am going to finally have to replace those original brakes....

    who needs a Cat in a Ford? :)
  • RoclesRocles Posts: 985
    sovercash,
    Cdean is talking about that "gem" that Detroit Diesel made for GM during the 90's.

    cdean,
    I won't argue the advantage of a 454 over the powerstroke. Alot of guys make out better getting gas over diesel. You have to weigh each engine and it's differences before buying for your own needs. The 454 is good. I never stated otherwise.

    I dispute Chevys of the early 90's. I bought three 95 c1500 with the 350 block. You have heard my problems before so I'll streamline it. U-joints too early, axel/rear bearings gave way too early, wheel bearings a total joke, mislabeled rear, cracked block and brake pads every 15,000 miles. Yes, there are roofers driving them but somehow the Fords that were OLDER never gave me the headaches that those Chevys did. Maybe all three rolled of the line the same day and some union guy hated GM but I was disgruntled to say the least.
    I guess we cancel each other out? Hey, I've been the "CHEVY-GUY" since highschool. It was the straight 6 and the 78 F-250 that won me over in the early days of my firm. I hated that 250 when I bought it. I got it because I couldn't afford the Chevy next to it at the used car lot. Talk about fate.
    Look, I'm not a Chevy-hater. In fact, I still believe they make better gas motors and my dream truck would be the 454 in a Ford Super-Duty. It's preference that has built up because of actual usuage and not magazines and private ownership.
    If Chevy builds a kick-[non-permissible content removed] HD next year as rumor has it, then I will take a serious look. Until then.......
  • cdeancdean Posts: 1,110
    the early 90's trucks i was speaking of were all '93 and earlier.

    brake pads every 15K? sounds like a Dodge...;)
  • The 6.2 and the 6.5 is not a Detroit Diesel product. Never has been. Someone may have said that it is but never was. Detroit made a 8.2liter engine went out of production in the late 80s. ford and Chevrolet all used it for a while. And Just got some info on the Duramax. Diesel Progress got to run the ford,dodge and the new chevy heads up with and without a trailer. Duramax was in front. Ford second dodge way behind. Even with a trailer the chevrolet and ford could out run the dodge. Automatic against automatics.
  • RoclesRocles Posts: 985
    Maybe I'm confused, the 6.2 and 6.5 aren't made by DD? It was a straight GM job? Not suprised at all.......

    cdean,
    Oh yeah, my Dodges run through brakes as well....thank God I don't have that many of them.
  • BrutusBrutus Posts: 1,113
    A year after the Duramax comes out, Ford will be introducing the 2nd generation PSD. The Ford is rumored to be a 6.0L with over 300hp and 550 ft-lb of torque. No word yet on what tranny it will be matched with. I'm not sure what Dodge has in the works.

    It will be interesting to see how the new PSD will do against the Duramax. It sounds like the current PSD still made a reasonable showing against the Duramax. The Duramax clearly has a significant hp advantage over the current PSD, as well as a little more torque.
  • cdeancdean Posts: 1,110
    sure is a lot conclusions, analysis, predictions, and criticisms over engines that don't have ratings and aren't even out yet!! really, they can make these engines pull what they want to. The powerstroke and cummins could pull 700 ftlbs right now if the rest of the truck could take it.
  • brother


    lol
  • RoclesRocles Posts: 985
    cdean,
    But isn't that the fun in this forum?
  • I have a 97 ext f250 with auto. 4:10 & power stroke. It is the most impressive truck I have ever been in for towing. I tow a 8,000 pound horse trailer (when loaded) & I will put it up against any 454. The only place it will beat me is from 0-60. I have towed side by side with 98 454 with the same load & he has a very hard time keeping up with me especialy all the stops he has to for gas.
    I have recorded my mileage since new & have yet to get 12.5 loaded & is usualy 13.5.Empty I will get anywhere from 17 to 22 depending on speed.

    The 454 the best he can get is 11.5 empty & 7 or 8 loaded.

    We both have appr. same mileage on truck 26,000.

    I wont deny the 454 or the 460 ford (which I owned & sold with 170,000 miles on it 91) are good motors & up until now have seved there purpose but unless you have pulled a heavy load with the power stroke you cant imagine the power (torque) they produce.
    He also has trouble with it heating up when he really gets pulling up a long steep mountain pass
    because he has to shift down & use horse power instead of torque. the power stroke has never heated up on the same hill & i wiil usually pass him on the hill if I end up behind him
  • cdeancdean Posts: 1,110
    thats why you payed $3000 more for the engine.
  • markbuckmarkbuck Posts: 1,021
    It's horsepower that pulls everything up hills, down the road, etc.....

    Your diesel just happens to have lots of low RPM horsepower.
  • No that is low rpm torque.
This discussion has been closed.