BMW 1-Series

jaxs1

No one cares about the Euro and won't accept that as price justification when they are shopping for cars and looking at the MSRPs. If BMW can't price it competitively because of the Euro, they can just pull it out of the US market.

andys120

No one cares about the Euro and won't accept that as price justification when they are shopping for cars and looking at the MSRPs. If BMW can't price it competitively because of the Euro, they can just pull it out of the US market.

That would make sense if they were having the kind of trouble moving the iron that Saab or Volkswagen are but they are the most successful importer of European cars ever so they clearly know something about how to price their wares.

I'm guessing that those who are complaining most about the price have never owned a BMW or seriously contemplated owning one. They aren't for everyone and only a minority will find their premium price tags justifiable. That my friends is the way a free market full of consumer choices works.

qbrozen

but what are the competitors they should price it competetively with?

fedlawman

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.ef156ce/681

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.ef156ce/874

$29K for the 128i and $36K for the 135i.

nyccarguy

I'm guessing that those who are complaining most about the price have never owned a BMW or seriously contemplated owning one. They aren't for everyone and only a minority will find their premium price tags justifiable. That my friends is the way a free market full of consumer choices works.

I own (lease) a BMW (it's actually my wife's X3). Part of what makes BMWs so special is that they aren't for everyone. Part of what makes BMW a great company is that they can increase sales year over year and still remain the 2nd most profitable car company.

I understand that you get "more" with BMW as compared to other companies. I'm not shocked at the starting point of the 135i. They're not going to give away cars with 300 hp twin turbo engines.

I'm not going to be in the market for a new car (for me) for a long while, so what I say doesn'y matter :P

blueguydotcom

I'm guessing that those who are complaining most about the price have never owned a BMW or seriously contemplated owning one. They aren't for everyone and only a minority will find their premium price tags justifiable. That my friends is the way a free market full of consumer choices works.

rofl

They're not premium cars. Those who have owned BMWs know they're not that special vis-a-vis other cars. The blue and white propeller doesn't equal quality and top-notch engineering by default.

michaellno

I've never owned a BMW - heck, I've only driven one once, and that was around the block - but I've known folks who have owned them, starting with a co-worker of my dad's who had a 2002 and ending with my brother in law, who has had a leased 5-series and just bought a CPO 2004 330i sedan.

However, when the 1-series was announced, I thought it might be a car that I could be happy with. I was thinking a 128i with minimal equipment, under $30K, would be a nice mid-life crisis car (I'll be 44 in a few weeks).

Not sure how I feel now that the prices have been announced. As was pointed out above, the 128i will be just a tick over $30K before any options are added. Yes, it's still $5K cheaper than the equivalent 3-series coupe, but it's hard to justify a premium for the roundel.

Now, I know I'm gonna get slammed for this, because what I'm about to compare the 1-series to is heresy by some in this group, but I can name a couple of 300+ HP RWD cars that I might want to own more than the 1-series:

Ford Mustang - 300HP and, because I'm a Ford Supplier, I can get one with the discount and the rebate for under $24K (no options)

Pontiac G8 - yes, another Detroit monster, but 361HP for that same $30K (compared with the 230HP of the 128i) is hard to ignore.

I'm sure that not a lot of folks will cross shop the 128i with a G8, but I guess that makes me a 'bang for the buck' kind of guy.

I may have to drive them all and see what I think then .. it's all speculation at the moment.

blueguydotcom

Add in the Hyundai coupe with 300 hp, RWD and a pricetag below 26k.

If we add in AWD, then the Evo and the STI pop up (though the STI is nearly the same price).

ateixeira

You win, I was low on both prices anyway.

As a prize, you get to be first in line to buy a car none of us can afford.

Wonder what the euro delivery price will be on the 128i? Maybe 27k? That's not too bad, I supppose, when you factor the 4 years' free service.

Maybe they figure they can charge more for a coupe. A hatch would have had to compete with the A3 and Volvo C30, this doesn't.

louiswei

Wow, you were dead on with your prediction.

Mine ended up to be about $1.2K too low for each mode but at the time I thought my prediction was on the high side. Oh well...

BMW really surprised me on this one.

fedlawman

I'm not getting in line until I know it's gonna have an aux oil cooler and a dipstick.

kyfdx

$29K+ includes destination..

I think the base is around $28,600..

I don't remember what I predicted here, but I won a contest on another forum for predicting the price... just edged out qbrozen, I think..

blueguydotcom

ED on the 128 should start at around 25-26k with 1k dealer profit and delivery. Even with a few options you'd easily get the car for less than 30k. The 135i will probably run about 30k base with 1k profit and delivery.

blueguydotcom

It'll never have a dipstick.

fedlawman

I know.

I'll just keep saving up for a 911.

qbrozen

I think I'm in exactly the same mindset as you, michaell. As of this moment, the 3 vehicles I keep coming back to on my wishlist for next car are the 1-series, G8 (this is actually bottom of the list, frankly), Challenger, and EX35. All very different, and I like each for different reasons. I think I've written off the C30 because I'm pretty sure I'm not going to be happy with FWD anymore.

qbrozen

did you really win? if so, congrats!

kyfdx

Yeah... I tied on the 128i..

I think you were in 2nd place on the 135i...

But, then again... you are a The Price Is Right maven..

dhanley

"Figuring one can get 2k off a 335i without blinking, that makes the two cars about equal in price. Shameful really."

I see. So you can bargian on a 335i but not a 135i. I wasn't aware of that.

fedlawman

blueguydotcom

Try bargaining on the 335i coupe...it can be done but the 335i sedan is sold with discounts quite easily. I don't think it's a stretch to assume that for the first 6-12 months the 1 series will not be easy to find near invoice.

nyccarguy

Now that I've had a chance to check out some of the options pricing, I'm over the original sticker shock from the other day. This is reasonable. A 128i equipped to my specifications would have a 6-speed manual transmission (n/c), Sports Package, Heated Front Seats (I had butt warmers in my old 2000 Saab 9-3 and do miss them so), Bluetooth, & SIRIUS Satellite Radio (Howard Rules) will have an MSRP of $32,420. By the time I'm ready to buy, a decent $1000 over invoice deal should be completely doable.

If I could swing ED, then I might opt for the 135. But that's a big if.

Thinking it over, BMW priced the 128i at the upper end of MINI Cooper S territory and well below the 328i Coupe. Just right.

I look forward to seeing the 1 series on the roads early next year.

blueguydotcom

That's at the extreme end of the cooper S as 25.5k will get you a Cooper S with the important bits - sport package, xenons, lsd, sport suspension.

kyfdx

You'll definitely have to order a 1-series to get it equipped that way...

Most will be slushboxes with premium package, etc.. I'm going to guess, and say that the average price of the in-stock units will be about $34,500 (128i).

A MINI Cooper S the way I would want it, is right around $27K.... Around here, we have to have heated seats!!

andys120

They have to price the 128i high enough to avoid stealing sales from the MINI at the low end and low enough to keep from cannibalizing the 3-series on the high end.

jaxs1

Hardly the extreme end of the Cooper S at all. The options list for the Cooper S is very long. You can get the MSRP over $30K even without adding nav and additional thousands of dollars of dealer accessories.

blueguydotcom

Agreed on the pricing of the 138 - they'll at least add premium and slushy to 95% of the cars.

My has the heated seats and the three settings of Toast, Roast, Cook to a Crisp. Nice after I get out of the ocean though...feels very good.

blueguydotcom

Yes you can, but loading up a cooper that way is extreme. Cooper S with the important bits is far, far below 30k. Even with something like premium package it doesn't touch 30. You need to work pretty hard to break 30k with a Cooper - adding all sorts of stuff.

nyccarguy

I have NO PROBLEM waiting for the car I want. Our X3 has leatherette, slushbox (n/c), Montego Blue Metallic Paint, Heated Front Seats, & Rear Privacy Glass. It was located on a dealer's lot.

habitat1

I'll just keep saving up for a 911.

Sorry to break it to you, but no dipsticks in a 911 either.

andys120

Replacing the physical dipstick with an electronic one isn't a bad idea IMO. Ever since the advent of unleaded gas the level of internal oil contamination has dropped
so much that dipsticks have become difficult to read, even in strong light. BMW compounds the problem by providing a dipstick that has a black section at the tip!

Given the choice I'd rather have an accurate coolant temp gauge than a physical dipstick, BMW no longer provides a temp guage in certain models and like most cars today, the onnes that are provided are piezoelectric (sp?) meaning they aren't particularly accurate. In my experience over-heating is more common than being low on oil.

shipo

While everything you wrote is true, I still haven't figured out how to change my oil without a dipstick. :P

qbrozen

??
really?
pull the plug, let it drain, replace the filter, and fill with the amount of oil specified by the manufacturer. The days of filters that take a half quart to fill after the engine is running for a few minutes are long gone, at least on the vehicles in question. I mean, if you really come up short, the electronic gauge will tell you, right?

fedlawman

How short do you have to be before the idiot light comes on? What if the light comes on after 1 month - how much oil do you need to add for a top off?

What if you are getting ready for a driving school/HPDE? You definitely want to top off the oil but be careful not to overfill. How does an idiot light help you here?

shipo

In case you've missed it, I don't do the under car thing any longer (if I don't have to). I simply stick a suction hose down the dipstick tube and extract the oil out from there. I also use the oil extractor to remove any stray oil from the oil canister before dropping in the new cartridge. As for needing a half of a quart to fill the oil filter, hmmm, the filter cavities of both of our vans and both of my BMWs displaced nearly a full quart. Go figure

Best Regards,
Shipo

qbrozen

What if the light comes on after 1 month - how much oil do you need to add for a top off?

well, i certainly don't know, but that's a problem with the system, regardless if you change your own oil or not.

qbrozen

yup. definitely missed that.

what is this filter cavity you speak of? is this different than the filter itself?

All of my filters since ... hmmmm... I think my '79 Jeep, have been maybe the size of a pint, so they are completely incapable of holding much more than maybe 5 or 6 oz, I'd have to guess.

shipo

BMWs do not have a spin on filter like your Jeep. Instead they have a top mounted canister with a lid or cap that spins off. Inside is where the filter cartridge/media lives and the entire displacement of this cannister is at least a quart if not a liter or larger.

As for the engines in our Dodge minivans, they too sport the large spin-on oil filters that are almost exactly one quart in displacement.

Best Regards,
Shipo

qbrozen

so if you look up the total oil capacity in the BMW service manual, does it not include this cavity? I would think, since it is part of the engine, it would, unlike a spin-on filter.

shipo

I don't understand what you are trying to tell me. :confuse:

I know exactly how much oil my BMWs needed to reach the top of the dipstick hash marks, seven quarts exactly, which includes the amount of oil required to refill the filter cavity. As for our vans with the spin on filters, they required exactly five quarts when used with the standard size filter and five and a half quarts with the large filter. Simple.

Best Regards,
Shipo

fedlawman

It's only simple if you have a dipstick...

qbrozen

nothing, really. i think it was the train of thought that got a bit confused. When you originally mentioned the lack of a dipstick being a problem, I countered that you merely need to fill with the specified amount of oil, except a filter may change that a bit in some cases, but it shouldn't be a problem. So that's how we got on the filter discussion. When you said it takes a quart, I thought you were trying to tell me this caused a problem when refilling. So we apparently just got all kinds of signals mixed up.

qbrozen

It's only simple if you have a dipstick...

And THIS is where I'm still confused. Unless you also like to siphon your oil out through the dipstick rather than just remove a screw and walk away for 10 minutes while it drains??

kyfdx

He uses a MityVac.. Less mess..

qbrozen

i dunno. its just something that never bothered me. Maybe my long arms make a difference. I can often just toss a pan under there, reach underneath with a wrench and spin the plug off. Its probably a 2-minute process, at worst. Depending on the vehicle, removing the filter is the worst part, but that wouldn't change with a pump.

kyfdx

I don't know... I just throw the guy the keys and go eat a donut...

Later, when I get home... I look to see if I have a new oil filter....

qbrozen

true. That, too.
We do that with our newer cars. I just can't bring myself to take my $800 pickup to a shop, though. ;b

fedlawman

Maybe in this age of clean perfect disposable cars that have plastic engine covers so you can't see the dirty parts - designed to be used for 3 years and then discarded. Please help us forget that cars are actually made of nuts, bolts, gears and grease rather than being clean, egg-shaped, swift, smooth and silent appliances that glide us to our destinations smelling spring-time fresh.

Personally, I get my hands dirty once a month (at least) and check the fluid levels in my transmission and differential. I go under the hood maybe twice a month and check my engine oil, brake fluid, coolant, and washer fluid levels. I even check my tire pressure and inspect my wipers regularly - horror of horrors!

The way things are headed, maybe BMW can make coolant and washer reservoirs out of black abs plastic with non-removable lids - lifetime fluids! They'll match the valve cover cover (not a typo), will never turn yellow with age, and they'll just look really neat-o. And how about tires without valve stems (those little rubber nipples look so unsightly sticking out from those 20" chrome wheels)? If one tire starts looking a little low (as if you can tell on RFTs), just have roadside assist tow your car to your nearest BMW dealer to have it inflated back up to factory specs.

Seriously, you can talk all day about how you don't really NEED a dipstick, but the question remains - what's the harm in having it and why go to the effort to eliminate it in the first place?

qbrozen

what's the harm in having it and why go to the effort to eliminate it in the first place?

well, that I couldn't tell you. Is it silly to eliminate it? yes, of course. It is an answer to a question nobody asked (well, ok, maybe the service departments??). But there is an electronic indicator, correct? At least, that's what it sounds like folks are saying (i've never looked at a new BMW, so I don't know). So if there is still some way to tell, I don't really see the harm. Maybe I am misunderstanding.

Eliminating valve stems wouldn't really be the same because you've then eliminated the ability to fill the tires. But, yes, if there was a TPMS and simply a way to remove or add air, I wouldn't see a problem there, either. Actually, come to think of it, a TPMS with auto inflate/deflate sounds like a great feature that I'm surprised hasn't been offered yet.

cdnpinhead

Thanks for one of the best posts in recent weeks, if not months.

I pine for the days you could actually see the engine and get at all sides of it. One didn't have to take half the engine apart to change the spark plugs -- the whole operation took 20 minutes max, and that included setting the gaps.

Oh well. . .