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Ford Fusion/Mercury Milan

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Comments

  • badgerfanbadgerfan Member Posts: 1,565
    I cannot speak concerning the Duratech rpm range, etc, and performance with CVT or 6 speed, however on the last point, the Duratech in the 500 is not a variable valve timing version.

    Quite a while ago I posted this in the Five Hundred discussion, comparing the Duratech in my Taurus with the variable valve timing version in the Mazda 6:

    "Just for kicks I went back and looked at CR's acceleration data for the 3.0 Duratec in Taurus vs 3.0 Duratec modified and with 5 speed automatic in Mazda 6.

    Taurus 0-60 in 8.3 seconds. 45-65 in 4.9 seconds. 1/4 mile in 16.4 seconds. Curb weight 3325 lbs. CR mileage test: 15 city, 31 highway, 22 overall

    Mazda 6: 0-60 in 8.1 seconds. 45-65 in 5.3 seconds. 1/4 mile in 16.5 seconds. Curb weight 3355 lbs. Cr mileage test: 14 city, 30 highway, 20 overall.

    Seems all that tweaking Mazda did with variable valve timing and a 5 speed automatic did nearly nothing but allow Mazda to publish a 10% higher horsepower rating, but with worse mileage, and in only one acceleration test did it beat the Taurus."

    Variable valve timing with the 3.0 Duratech does not seem to buy you much, at least the Mazda version.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    Variable valve timing with the 3.0 Duratech does not seem to buy you much, at least the Mazda version.

    The Mazda version, which I drive every day, has more HP but less torque than the version in the Taurus. I test drove the 6 with ATX and was fairly unimpressed just as you were above. I leased mine with an MTX and there is a big difference in performance. MT clocked the 6 with MTX to 60 in about 6.8 seconds. Unfortunately the Fusion will not be offered with a V6 and MTX combo.

    FWIW, Mazda is using a 6-speed ATX on V6 models this year. I haven't seen any performance numbers on it yet. The fusion is using the 6-speed too right?

    I argued all of this in an earlier post. The Fusion is getting a ~210 HP version of the Duratec30 but it still has ~200 ft-lbs of torque to move the car off the line. If you factor in that the 6 has less torque but more HP and weighs about the same the performance numbers between the two shouldn't be that far off.

    I assure all of you, if all of this is true, and the Fusion is equal to the 6 in handling too, it is going to be one nice ride and well worth a look or two when shopping around. I can't say enough good things about the Mazda6 and I would expect the same to be true of the Fusion.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    If you scroll back, we discussed this previously on these boards.

    To make it short, the Taurus' Duratec has a higher torque curve at lower RPM"s, over the Mazda unit The Mazda unit is designed to breathe at higher HP, with a loss of torque at the higher range.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    And, so, which curve will the Fusion get, since it doesnt have exactly the output of either?

    I'd expect/hope that the 6 speed auto in the Mazda 6 V6 trims acceleration times a bit...

    ~alpha
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    The Fusion receive a torque curve inbetween. Off the line it gathers itself quickly (helped by the 6A), then the VCT maximizes it's top end HP.
  • jrljrl Member Posts: 39
    Intersting talk, but the real question is what the heck is Ford thinking. Have they noticed hp numbers coming from their competition? How can you throw a new car that looks oddly enough influenced by cadillac out into the market to defeat Honda/Toyota with a top dog engine of 210 horsepower? What the *@##& Ford? Before you know it Kia is going to be sporting larger hp #s. Yes Ford is bringing improvements, but you have to bring the heart as well. Give us a real V6 with 240-280 hp, throw it in Fusion and 500. Clean up your act Ford with the 4.6 in the F-150 and Explorer. If that thing can spit out 302 hp in a Lincoln Aviator, you better make it do the same for Explorer/F-150!! It is starting to be embarrassing to be a true blue ford fan
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Member Posts: 2,287
    Apparently, you have not seen the price of petrol of late. Nor realized that well near 2/3 of all cars sold in the midsize market have either 4 or very small 6 cylinder engines.
  • jrljrl Member Posts: 39
    Apparently you have not seen the mpg estimates on those "foreign cars" that are boasting the 240-280 hp v6s, comparable or better than Fords lathargic v6. Dont defend Ford, demand something better from Billy. I'm not calling for a 1969 gas guzzling v8, where is the technology at? Give us the higly efficient yet powerful v6s that Honda/Nissan/Toyota are offereing
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Member Posts: 2,287
    HA! My Chevy Impala got better mileage and had better power than those so called efficient Accord/Camry engines. Sorry, I don't buy it.

    I also will wait to drive the car before I come to an opinion about Fusion. A car which, by the way, was more under Nasser's tutelage than William's.
  • jrljrl Member Posts: 39
    Chevrolet is typically a little more generious with their hp love, but some how I don't think your Impala had better gas mileage than the hybrid Honda four door accord which runs 0-60 in under 7 seconds-a good romping on the noggin of the 500 with gas to give your neighbor! Face it, there is no arguing around it. Ford's hope is that the Fusion can rest away top cudos from Honda accord/camry. That is never going to happen if those cars have just as nice interior/ride and more hp with gas effiency that Ford can not boast about right now. I think its a mistake to bring something to market unless you know it is better than the competition. The same thing is happening to Ford/Chevy in the compact truck market. Do not even try to tell me Chevy's inline Five has as much power and good gas mileage as the new offerings from Nissan/Toyota. It gets left in the dust! so does the Ranger..which is basically moses in compact truck market
  • jrljrl Member Posts: 39
    Hey, dont take my word for all this, pick up any modern vehicle magazine and you will read the same complaints
  • venus537venus537 Member Posts: 1,443
    HA! My Chevy Impala got better mileage and had better power than those so called efficient Accord/Camry engines. Sorry, I don't buy it.

    i guess you had a "special" impala that no one else got. the accord is rated at 21/30 mpg and consistently gets 0-60 times of 7 sec. HA! HA!

    GM's 3.8L is better suited for farm machinery. it's time for GM to have its excellent 3.6L OHC more available. or at least "tinker" with the 3.8L to make it smoother like they did with the 3.5L OHV.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    As was mentioned before...
    Majority of the midsize vehicles are sold with a 4 cylinder.

    Majority of the high output V6's available in the competition, requires premium fuel as well.

    The 6 speed automatic transmission (what the competition doesn't have) will make the vehicle quicker, HP is just half the equation. Ford has already demonstrated the 203HP 3.0L Duratec in the 500 can out accelerate the Chrysler 300s 250HP 3.5L V6.

    A 3.5L V6 will be added a year later, along with AWD (something rare in the segment).

    The 4.6L DOHC in the Aviator (kinship to the Mustang Cobras) will die in July. The one in the Explorer is a SOHC version. It's being replaced with a 4.6L with a 3V, more efficient, lower emmissions, more thrust at lower RPM's. The DOHC unit also requires premium gas. That hurts for a vehicle that already posts low fuel efficiency. Yes, Nissan and Toyota's 4.0L in their trucks are powerful, but with premium gas. Hurts, when it's on a work truck.

    The 4.6L 3V will be available in the newly remodeled Explorer/Mountaineer that will debut later this summer with 292HP, and will trickle into other vehicles currently using the 4.6L 2V version.

    The Ranger isn't getting remodeled for awhile. That market is dwindling in sales since you can buy an F-150, for a bit more money if your really serious about a truck. Chevy's mistake was to revamp the Colorado, and not the Silverado which is their money maker. You always redesign your higher profit vehicles first.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    For the vast majority of drivers any decent car, including Ford's and the 4 cylinder midsizes have more than adequate power. Really, we do just fine even in cars with 0-60 times of 10 seconds.

    Most drivers I see are so sedate in their acceleration it is annoying to me, but this has nothing to do with the available power. They apparently do not like to actually press the gas pedal down too much and like to take about 1/2 mile to get up to 60 mph.

    Apparently in the real world the hybrids do not achieve anywhere near the claimed mileage. The hybrid Civic got 36 mpg in CR test, while EPA numbers are 48/47 mpg.

    The hybrids also make no economic sense. The Accord Hybrid costs $30,000+ and EPA mileage numbers are 29/37 mpg. This cost is $3000 more than comparable non-hybrid V-6 and $7,000 more than comparable 4 cylinder model (which gets 24/34 mpg).

    It'll take nearly 200,000 miles to break even on the $3000 investment in the hybrid vs. the normal V-6. And this assumes it actually achieves the EPA mileage numbers (I used average of city and hwy for both vehicles).
  • dbauerdbauer Member Posts: 416
    normally, i agree with you, but you are mistaken about one thing. none of the competitions' V6's REQUIRE premium.

    the altima is at 250 HP with regular, and the accord is at 240 with regular. ive had both before.
  • venus537venus537 Member Posts: 1,443
    pretty much agree with you.

    i would point out that it's not honda claiming the 48/47 numbers but the EPA (not implying you were saying otherwise). a different methodology needs to be devised for hybrids by the EPA.

    it's even worse for the hybrid accord then you suggest. while hybrid accords sell at sticker, the regular accord V6 sells closer to invoice price. i haven't done the math but the difference is a lot more than $3000.

    if you want the increased performance from the hybrid accord then you can just get a TL. the actual purchase price of these cars are not too far off.
  • jrljrl Member Posts: 39
    Correction, Ford has not proven that the v6 500 out accelerates the chrysler 300 3.5 liter. It only beats the base model. "With some reservations, we think it is good enough. Zero-to-60 comes up in 8.0 seconds; holding the pedal brings the quarter-mile in 16.3 seconds at 88mph. This is a not-so-close second to the Chrysler 300 with its optional 3.5 liter V6."-Car and Driver on the Ford 500 (March issue). The point I am making is that Ford (or GM) will never rest away #1 spots in car sales if they continue to produce underpowered vehicles with LESS fuel effiecency and not-there-yet reliability versus imports. The one thing that American cars use to be able to say is "Hey, we have more power than the buzzy weedeaters from across the sea" Now, not even in the Truck market can Ford and Chevy boast the more powerful and effiecent engines. And while Ford should maintain its #1 spot with the F-150, it is continuely dissed by every critic including its owners that the new 300hp engine feels about like 250 instead. As for the Lincoln aviator, I'm still not seeing the value of anyone's argument. So are you saying the explorer/f-150 should not recieve the "cobra" 4.6 because Ford has decided to kill it? And that would be a good argument because...?? And for the hybrids..isn't the point to reduce emissions and save generations from ungodly stories of skin cancer because we all burned up the ozone layer, not that they cost less than a regular powered gasoline or that you can save 300 bucks annually? My arguments: 1)Nissan/Honda/Toyota are producing more reliable, equally attractive, superior interior, more effiecient, and now even more powerful vehicles than Ford/Chevy. It would appear to me the only way to defeat that is beat them at every level. 3.0 duratec with 203 hp does not send the message to me. I'm not saying Ford has not improved or that the 500 is not unique (good price with awd/cvt)but is that really enough to throw off the bunches of imports?
  • dbauerdbauer Member Posts: 416
    "It would appear to me the only way to defeat that is beat them at every level."

    you continue to say "entry level", but talk about optional vehicles with V6 engines. entry level for the fusion will be the 2.3L I-4 that has 160 HP and about the same amount of torque. this is the same as the accord 2.4L and the camry 2.4L. the EPA ratings for a 6-speed auto or CVT with a 4-cyl. are not available yet, but i can almost assure you that it will be similar to the honda/toyota/nissan 4-bangers.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    "the altima is at 250 HP with regular, and the accord is at 240 with regular. ive had both before."

    I have 2 friend with the Altima V6, the manual specifically says Premium. Another friend has a G35, which also states it requires premium. The Honda 3.5L in a friends Pilot, requires midgrade. New Toyota Avalon 3.5L, states premium fuel as well.

    "Correction, Ford has not proven that the v6 500 out accelerates the chrysler 300 3.5 liter"

    Yes it did, the test was done by AMCI, which showed 0-60 in 7.3 secs against the Chrysler 300's 3.5L which took over 8 seconds.

    "#1 spot with the F-150, it is continuely dissed by every critic including its owners that the new 300hp"

    Flashback on some history, the F-50 has never been the most powerful truck in it's segment, yet, it's been the #1 selling vehicle for over 20 years, with this difficiency. The Camry is the #1 selling midsize sedan, yet around 80% of them are I-4s and counts on other positive items for it to sell, SPEED isn't one of them.

    "So are you saying the explorer/f-150 should not recieve the "cobra" 4.6 because Ford has decided to kill it? And that would be a good argument because...??"

    I clearly stated the reason as to why the 4.6L DOHC engine cannot be used. Just to point it out ONE more time.

    1) Uses premium fuel- for a truck...Not good.
    2) Higher emmissions than the 4.6L 2V and 3V.
    3> The 3V version (now being used in the Mustang) can attain better low RPM torque, using regular fuel.
    4) Easier to build, less complexity, costs less to produce

    I ask you, WHY should the DOHC version be used then? Since it has nothing positive over the new 3V version.

    ": 1)Nissan/Honda/Toyota are producing more reliable, equally attractive, superior interior, more effiecient, and now even more powerful vehicles than Ford"

    Equally attractive? Styling is subjective.
    Superior interior and Nissan, doesn't equate- try touching the interior of a Titan, altima, Pathfinder, Armada. Nissan is gaining reputation for the "GM-like interior, of the foreign brands".
    Toyota uses the cheesiest headliner's, looks like sprayed on mousefur.
    More efficient? Check some of the emissions and lower gas mileage the Tundra is posting. And the audacity to use premium fuel in some of it's trucks.

    As I stated before, the 3.5L will be available soon after, and an ST version with 270HP will be introduced as well if someone needs that much power. Anything more, get a Mustang.

    Everyone brand has their pros/cons, not everything is greener on the other side of the ponds.
  • dbauerdbauer Member Posts: 416
    "I have 2 friend with the Altima V6, the manual specifically says Premium."

    wrong. read more carefully. the altima V6 RECOMMENDS premium for maximum performance, but does not require it. with regular, the HP is at 245 instead of 250, and actually gets 1 MPG better.

    it is a choice to be made by the owner. personally, i cant see spending $0.20/gal more for only a 5 HP boost. useless.

    also, you obviously havent seen the 2005 altima interior. get up-to-date with your product knowledge, and we'll talk more.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    So which is it? Do we want to "save generations from ungodly stories of skin cancer because we all burned up the ozone layer" or do we want everyone to think they need 8 bajillion HP so that they can go 0-60 in 1.6 sec? Or more realistically drive like a grandma, but be able to tell the guys at the office "I got more HP than you, na na ne boo boo".

    BTW, the issue would be global warming and/or running out of oil not the "ozone layer". If the goal is less gas use then the 4 cylinder will give you that and adequate performance and save you about $9000.

    And yes it is worse, the TMV for hybrid accord is $5000 higher than the V-6. So you have to go 300,000 miles to break even at today's gas prices. So even if the price of gas doubled, you would have to go 150,000 miles.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    "also, you obviously havent seen the 2005 altima interior. get up-to-date with your product knowledge, and we'll talk more"

    I have seen it, I drove one a full day last week testing it out. I wasn't impressed by the interior. Although much better than the previous interior. BTW here's a tip I learned on the test drive, if an Altima cuts you off, hit the left rear corner and accelerate a bit, and watch it flip.
  • mindaugusmindaugus Member Posts: 20
    Most people don't learn much about the cars they buy than the branding. I think it is unlikely Ford's engine choice for the Fusion will hurt them. For one thing most cars like Accord's and Camry's will be 4 cylinders. Also Americans hate shifting gears, so the auto in the Fusion beats the imports. Now styling is crucial, and the Japanese are loosing their minds now. They are putting out bland if not just strange styling that is distasteful for anyone that wants to be different. I'm optimistic and when pricing comes out I hope you see the last but most important piece of the equation value, shows this car is better than the competition on all fields. One caveat is if Ford applies these brand killing incentives they can't have a future. Just set a lower price, I don't want a rebate, I want a deal.
  • venus537venus537 Member Posts: 1,443
    tell me again why the auto in the fusion beats the imports. the conventional 6 speed in the ford five hundred isn't all that great.

    styling is crucial??? the fusion is decent enough but nothing outstanding or so different. can't get much more bland than the five hundred and i have a hunch that sedan will do well.

    it's kind of a flippant statement to suggest the fusion will be better than the competition on all fields.

    and has it dawn on anybody that this car has its roots in a japanese designed sedan?
  • gogophers1gogophers1 Member Posts: 218
    Wow, what an active thread this has become. I cannot help adding my $0.02 on the horsepower debate.

    Personally, performance matters a lot more to me than net horsepower. I've driven Chrysler's 3.5 in a few different applications including the Pacifica and 300. Neither felt "quick" to me. Now, my degree wasn't in Physics... but I'm thinking curb weight could be the culprit. Not to mention, the portly Pacifica only has 4 cogs for its slushbox. Is a car with 250hp a better performer than one with just 200?

    Is a 160lb. person fat? It kind of depends, doesn't it?

    Nobody here, with the *possible* exception of ANT, has ever driven a 2006 Fusion or Milan. We won't know any PERFORMANCE figures until they're published in the big auto periodicals - because performance isn't solely a function of horsepower. And if you're going to discuss the acceleration aspect of performance, you'd be remiss not to factor in weight and transmission gearing. If you're going to chastise Ford for coming to the plate with "only" 210 horses, why not criticize T and H for only playing with 5 forward gears?

    Personally, I think the Camry and Accord are good vehicles, but I'm blatantly anti-automatic. So which V6 automatic in the group packs more horsepower punch means about as much to me as missing an episode of ER.

    I think the 4cyl. w/manual version of every car discussed here (they're all within a few ponies of 160hp) is plenty for my needs - so long as I can get to sixty in under 8.5 seconds, I'm content. Perhaps if I was planning to tow a Boston Whaler up to Crater Lake I'd be singing a different tune. But I'm not.

    In the same vein, my world is not going to come crashing down if the car I'm driving takes 1 second longer than that of the guy one lane over to hit 60 at full-open throttle. If I was track bound, I'd be shopping for something other than a midsize family sedan anyway.

    I do, however, desire something that's fuel efficient and enjoyable to drive. The last time I went car shopping, the Altima was quickly thrown out of contention because I found the gearbox to be rather vague (not to mention that here in the Twin Cities, I've only seen chicks driving 'em). Likewise, I didn't much care for the extra-springy clutch release on the Accord. I figured it would be quite annoying in heavy stop-and-go.

    Steering feel is very important to me too (and why I'm not a big Toyota fan), much more so than straightline acceleration times. A supercharged Regal is faster than the whole lot here, but one can hardly call it a "fun" car. Overboosted and/or lifeless steering is not my idea of a good time.

    Lastly, styling is the linchpin in my purchase decision (this is obviously subjective, but the Honda Accord IMO is supremely unhip in the Looks Dept.). As they say, you are what you drive. And if you're driving a wallflower, well...

    The Milan/Fusion interest me because they look like they just might be the whole enchilada - stylish, affordable, fun-to-drive and efficient. Hopefully I'm right but time will tell. Needless to say, I can hardly wait for a test-drive.
  • venus537venus537 Member Posts: 1,443
    have you ever considered the mazda 6 or better yet the acura TSX. they're pretty hip and you be hard pressed to find a better manual tranny than that of the 6 speed TSX.

    the TSX may not be one of those affordable cars but its resale value is excellent.

    in addition to the lifeless steering of the supercharged regal, the engine itself contributes to the un-fun factor. it comes across as a "lazy" powerful powerplant.

    since the demographic's of the accord are of highly educated, high income empty nesters or recent empty nesters i don't mind being seen in the accord. i don't like how they're so common though.

    if the 6 speed automatic doesn't shift any better than that of the ford five hundred then it would be hard to criticize H and T for their smoother more responsive 5 speed automatics.
  • jrljrl Member Posts: 39
    If a ford five hundred will go 0-60 in 7.3, I will feast on cow dodo. I trust c&d over amci. A six speed will not magically make a hefty vehicle with awd and 203hp/207torque go 7.3. I said "every level", not "entry level". My argument still remains the same. Foriegn competition is building smoother, more effiecient, more hp, and even smaller engines. The more "power" may have been Americans only strong hold here. As someone mentioned, looks are subjective, but I don't think any new car shopper is going to find any of the mainstream models particular too ugly to own. FYI:

    Midsize Suvs:

    Ford Exlplorer (5a) Reg 4.0L 210/254 14/20
    Honda Pilot (5a) Reg 3.5L 255/250 17/22
    Mitts. Endeavor (4a) Pre 3.8L 225/250 17/22
    Nissan Pathfind (5a) Reg 4.0L 270/291 15/21
    Toyota (5a) Reg 4.0L 245/282 17/21

    Midsize sedans

    Honda accord (5a) Reg 3.0L 240/212 21/30
    Mitts. Galant (4a) Prem 3.8L 230/250 19/27
    Nissan Alt (5a) Prem 3.5L 250/249 20/30
    Toyota Cam (5a) Reg 3.3L 225/240 21/29
    Ford 500 (6a) Reg 3.0 203/207 21/29
    (Ford 500 is actually a little large for this comparo..so why is it the one with the least hp?)

    Minivans

    Ford Freestar (4a) Reg 3.9L 193/240 18/23
    Honda Ody. (5a) Reg 3.5L 255/250 20/28
    Nissa Quest (5a) Reg 3.5L 240/242 18/25
    Toyota (5a) Reg 3.3L 230/242 18/24

    Compact Trucks:

    Please, same deal

    Fullsize trucks:

    Ford does a little better here, but Nissan does it better with same mpg

    If your arguing that the best engine does not mean best car..ur right. If your arguing that most cars that are bought are 4s..your right. If you are arguing that you have to take many things into consideration when purchasing a vehicle..ur right. If your are saying that most vehicles with better performance than Ford use prem gas..ur wrong. If you are saying that Ford builds better engines than the competition, ur smokin something. If your a Ford fan (like me) but this does not bother u the least little bit..why not? If your saying that the grass is not greener on the other side..then Ask Ford how they feel about being #3 in Auto industry now while Toyota is #2. I guess they don't care. 4 bangers sell because they are cheaper to buy and cheap on gas. 4 bangers, however, don't necessarily move people into the showrooms. I say Ford has to beat the competition on every level (not entry level). Granted their best efforts might be in looks, and improvements are on the rise (interiors, hopefully reliability) Chassis could see some improvement and YES, their engines suck compared to the competition!!

    P.S. Edmunds.com states that the 500's engine performance is "mediocre" 7.3 0-60 is not mediocre. I'd be willing to bet that the 3.5L 300 will outrun the ford 500.
  • jrljrl Member Posts: 39
    If ford does come out with a 270 hp engine for the 500, it would be nice..and hopefully something that other Ford vehicles in other markets could use. I will believe it..when I see it.
  • gogophers1gogophers1 Member Posts: 218
    I was ready to buy a Mazda 6 last spring, but backed off when it became apparent I couldn't get the factory sunroof with a cloth interior. The only way I could get a sunroof was to bump up to a model with the Pontiacesque ground effects and leather. Well, that put the kibosh on that idea.

    I agree though, the stripper model Mazda 6 looks fantastic - very clean and European.

    My hope is that the Milan/Fusion will have similar handling traits (why not, they're all based on the same platform?) but will be available with my requisite sunroof-cloth seats-manual tranny combo (the Mazda 6 isn't).

    The TSX would have much more appeal to me if leather weren't a standard feature. Why Americans have this love affair with leather car interiors and automatic transmissions, I'll never know. My *guess* is that it's a drive-through thing (people like to eat and drink while they're driving - leather cleans up easier after a Slurpie spill), but I prefer not to use my car as a mobile cafe.

    As to the primary Accord demographic being "highly educated, high income empty nesters or recent empty nesters", I would love to know if you have any numbers to back up that statement. I don't work in the auto industry so my judgement is purely observational, but here in Minneapolis, Japanese nameplates with the exception of Lexus, Acura and Infiniti are not viewed as premium brands. I commute from the western 'burbs and the highly educated, high income empty nesters around here all seem to be driving German and Swedish imports (Audis and Volvos in particular). Accords are more popular in middle-class (and younger) neighborhoods closer in.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    "P.S. Edmunds.com states that the 500's engine performance is "mediocre" 7.3 0-60 is not mediocre. I'd be willing to bet that the 3.5L 300 will outrun the ford 500."

    A few other rags (which you like to quote from, for your analysis) also have posted better acceleration numbers over a 300 3.5L.

    I think you should concentrate more over transmission and gear ratios, which make a difference. HP/TQ are just half of the story as you will read in the 500 Forum.

    There's more to a car that 0-60 acceleration as the new Avalon shows us. Great engine, but uninspiring vehicle dynamics. Or torquey 3.8L in a Galant, but with gobs of torque steer which is annoying. Everything has a trade-off, not everyone is interested in 0-60 performance.
  • venus537venus537 Member Posts: 1,443
    it's difficult to get everything you want in a car....

    from USA Today (accord): "Slightly younger, richer, better-educated than typical Accord V-6 buyers; hybrid target is college-educated married man, 50, with $100,000-plus annual household income"

    (G6) "Fortysomethings with $65,000-$75,000 annual household incomes, as likely to be women as men, probably not college grads"

    the medium age for accord buyers is getting up there. i'm starting to feel old now. i'll let you determine what is meant by "slightly" for regular accords. i should of been more clear by what i meant by high income. i was talking more about within the pond of midsize sedan consumers.

    http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/reviews/healey/2004-09-23-accord-hybrid_x.htm

    http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/reviews/healey/2004-10-07-g6_x.htm
  • venus537venus537 Member Posts: 1,443
    it's not only edmund's who have made comments pertaining to the ford five hundred mediocre acceleration.

    regardless of the transmission or gear ratios, the bottom line is that the ford hundred isn't a hot rod.

    as with the ford five hundred, the avalon's driving dynamics are superb for its target audience.
  • jrljrl Member Posts: 39
    Seems like your not directing my argument. Ford's engines are subpar when compared to the competition. I already granted the arguments that engines and 0-60 times are not the only thing important in a car. So are you still arguing that Ford's engines are as good or better than competitions, mainly in the V6 department that is fueling toplined sedans/suvs/crossovers/ and compact pickups? Most of the competitors info that I threw up here included whether or not they were 4/5/ or 6spd automatics. As you can see, most of the competition brings 5a to the fight. One more gear doesn't help an underpowered hefty more than what a better engine would. So I ask you this, if Ford brought to the table the 500 and Fusion with same 3.0L but with say 240hp, but same mpg, with same driving dynamics, wouldn't you feel better about being a Ford Fan? I think you would. Then Ford could say our 500 is "bigger, faster, just as cheap or cheaper to own, rides great, better looking (subjective) and just as reliable with some intersting differences (cvt,6spd,awd)." I could then sleep at night. The engine argument here really comes down to REFINEMENT. Foreign competition has it, I am not so sure Ford/Chevy does.
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Member Posts: 2,287
    And for post 1ooo, I am going to mention the Ford Fusion. Carry on...
  • jrljrl Member Posts: 39
    This site is a blast and so is everyone in it. By the way Ant14, I just checked another "rag". I think AMCI must have recieved that 270 hp 500 you were mentioning earlier to get the 7.3 secs to 60, as Motor Trend has them 0-60 in 8.6, while the 3.5 liter 300 comes in at 8 flat. My suspicion is that AMCI tested the 2.7 L base engine on the 300, or Ford payed them a lot for that time blurb.
  • jrljrl Member Posts: 39
    ...Once again proving that Ford has droped a big pile of $&**! on its cars known as underpowered v6s. Somebody give me a WHOO HHaaHH!
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    So if you have an issue with the engines, Don't buy one. No one is forcing you to. Being an armchair critic isn't going to profit any company. Every vehicle has it's pros and cons, if I don't find something negative on a car, my work isn't done. It just depends what your willing to trade off, for the negatives.

    BTW, some of Ford engines have received "Wards 10 Best engine" awards, for a few years on different engines. The 5.4L Triton received it for 5 years, as the 6.0L PowerStroke Diesel, as the 3.9L DOHC V8, even the Ford Zetec 2.0L received it one year. This year it's the 4.6L SOHC V8, as well as the 1.3L Mazda Renesis.

    If your expecting Ford to have the best engines on each and every segment, for every segment, every year. That's impossible, sorry to break the news to you. Competition makes good vehicles, better. But you can't have it all at one given moment.
  • jrljrl Member Posts: 39
    "Being an armchair critic isn't going to profit any company"
    -No, but being a critic is if they listen!!

    "So if you have an issue with the engines, Don't buy one"
    -I own one..haha..2004 f-150 5.4L, I purchased from Ford, so I have an interest in it. (sort of like the argument that if you voted, you should be able to complain, right?)

    BTW...none of those engines were v6s, which has been the main concentration in these arguments...Are you really gonna argue with the numbers that I posted before? Just say it ANT14, Ford is behind in their main stream motors..because..well..they are. And no rebuttal to the 500-300 fight?

    And finally...

    "If your expecting Ford to have the best engines on each and every segment, for every segment, every year. That's impossible, sorry to break the news to you. Competition makes good vehicles, better. But you can't have it all at one given moment."
    -I must have missed Ford's new advertisement.."you can't have your cake and eat it to you know." PPEEllleasse.

    No seriously I know what you are saying there, but I can't find a market other than fullsize truck, that they are not extremely behind in. Even in the full size market they are not in the lead. (I'm not saying the 5.4L is a "bad" engine..its just a little outclassed by Nissan's 5.6 and possibly the hemi..although the hemi eats, sleeps, and terds gasoline)

    I'm not trying to make Ford look like a butt..I've only owned four autos, two have been Fords. I pledge allegiance to my f-150 everymorning. Don't hate on me because I pointed out the obvious, just accept, ask why, and hope for improvements! (Just like GM customers have been doing with those "interiors". )
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    Well I'm sorry your just not satify with Ford's performance. Considering it was just a few years ago the company had to be rescued and restructured to avoid bankrupty. Kick out Jac Nasser and his associated cronies.

    Continue to grow Volvo, allocating sufficient funds for new vehicles, new engines, new techonology respectively.

    Introduce new vehicles to Aston Martin, as well as new engines (wonder where the engine development money is going?).

    Introduce new vehicles for Mazda, and turn them into the black from years of posting in the red, breathe new life into their vehicles.

    Raise Jaguar's reliability rating, and continue to introduce new vehicles, new technologies and new engines for them... and that's another one that needs to be rescued from the red.

    Rejuvinate Land Rover, give them new vehicles, (most they have had in decades) as well as introduce new engines, even if it's Jaguar derived.... (than having to pay for BMW's 4.4L).

    Introduce new vehicles for Mercury, which never in it's history will it receive as many vehicles (even if it's Ford clones) as it soon will have.

    Introduce new Lincoln vehicles as well, with AWD availability.

    Develop new transmissions (6A FWD/RWD&AWD) and integrate AWD technology in the majority of their vehicles. Continue to increase the safety on their vehicles so they all post the highest (or near highest) in their segments... in government crash testing. Lower the emissions on all their vehicles, (better than most competitors).

    Improve the V8's, introduce new I-4's. I'm sorry that the Duratec35 is the last one to receive the attention.

    If you worked in the industry, you would understand it's not as easy to think "OH let's bring out the Duratec35, 2 years ahead of time".

    1) You need the technology of the AWD systems to catch up in capability to the power the 3.5L will deliver.

    2) Build new transmissions that can sustain the power the new Duratec35 will deliver.

    3) Build new platforms that can sustain and provide the space for the new engine.

    4) Build a relationship with supplier's, to facilitate the assembly and delivery of the products necessary.

    Next round of question, "Well why not bring it out 2 years ago?"

    A) The Taurus would have requires intensive investment from the A-Pillar forward to allow this engine in it. As well as, beef up the transmissions. In other words...Pointless.

    B) In the Ranger? Too expensive of an engine at such a low pricepoint. No transmission available then to sustain it's power.

    C) Explorer? Transmission not able to sustain it, requires some engine bay modification.

    D) Lincoln LS-Tbird, dying soon, leave them as V8s solely.

    E) For the CV/GM ? Nope, major engine bay modifications to allow for it. Vehicle too heavy, better suited solely for a V8.

    F) Escape? Maybe, but no transmission available then to allow for it. Also requires a beefier AWD system, and some major engine bay modification to allow for it.

    G) IN time for the new 500? Nope, the AWD system needs to be beefed up for it. At the time it wasn't possible. 6A auto needs to be beefed up as well, not worth paying the investment when a Ford/GM unit was under talks.

    Next round of possible questions...

    "Why now after the introduction of the 500/Fusion?"

    A) Refer to the paragraph of putting out wildwires throughout all companies.

    B) Refer to the paragraph of all the other technologies that need to be beefed up to allow for it, like AWD and transmissions.

    C) New platforms are now being introduced, that can allow for all these technologies to work together.

    D) Older platforms being killed, that wouldn't have allowed such drivetrains to be fitted.

    E) When your main breadwinner is the F-150 and your company produces more V8's than the competition, you tend to concentrate on it's V8's first since their emissions and C.A.F.E. will affect other vehicles in the line.

    Don't pull what GM did.... They redid their Colorado/Canyon and introduced a new I-5 in a segment that's dwindling. Instead of allocating resources to their highest profit vehicles, the Silverado.

    BTW the Ford Triton 5.4L isn't outclassed by the Nissan 5.6L. The F-150 has much more weight to pull around, and a 4speed automatic. Also, the 5.4L posts a higher torque curve, down low. As well as having the usual array of techonologies found in todays modern OHC engines.

    The armchair critics like the Titan because of quicker in it's performance. The car rags love to boast about that, and will recommend the vehicle, yet when the vehicle sits in the shop most of the time, they turn a blind eye away. How many times haven't they creamed over a VW, and look how unreliable they are... They also have wildfires to put out as well.
  • jrljrl Member Posts: 39
    Hmm..Actually most "rags" point out the f150 as best in class all around..just like edmunds here does, they just have to give credit where it is due when it comes to the Titan-a real nice engine. It does outclass the 5.4L, just pop open the hood and you will see what I mean. Its like looking at a nice piece of aluminum work versus a bunch of black plastic laid on top of some iron. You point out a lot of manufacturing decisions..which is fine I guess. But by your methods, it will be a while before Ford starts producing better engines. Look at it this way, The last generation Honda accord had available a 200hp 3.0, and now a 240 hp 3.0. By the time Ford introduces its next line of "better" engines, the competition will already be moving on. It sounds like Ford is behind a generation or so. Excuse me for thinking that one of Americas car companies, that races every sunday, boast about its legendary Le Mans win,etc.. would pride itself in some real nice work from the engine department. Now the argument has gone full circle. Ford wants to retake the car segment back into its realms, which it once held. It brings to the table solid competitors (500/fusion) They arguably have the looks, ride, comfort, reliabity, etc. yet Ford lays up a bunt in the engine department. If they do not take back the market, how could they really blame it on anything else? They have the uniqueness (awd/cvts/6a) they just have not brought the heart yet. Foriegn companies are producing/in general terms and across the many segment boards, more effiecent, more powerful, more refined engines than Ford. So I guess I'm the only Ford Fan that feels that way...
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Member Posts: 2,287
    Moving on, given the recent ballyhoo over the relatively poor side impact crash results posted by small cars, particularly the Dodge Neon, what can we expect from the Fusion? Would Ford be smart enough to make side airbags standard, thus ensuring much better results in the crash tests (and for its customers who are unlucky enough to crash)? (Even the brand new-just designed Cobalt, which did very well WITH side airbags, did very poorly without them).

    Which will come out first: the AWD for the Fusion or the 3.5 for the Five Hundred? About how much time will be between the two? (I bet you can see where THIS is going!)

    Will the Fusion have comparable safety levels to the Five Hundred? Would a person considering trading a Five Hundred for a Fusion be some sort of nut if safety were a MAJOR priority for him/her?
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,242
    Thanks for the Fusion question, johnclineii!

    This topic has been drifting all over the place - let's stick to the Fusion/Milan, and take the general Ford conversation to News & Views.

    MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
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  • dbauerdbauer Member Posts: 416
    "BTW...none of those engines were v6s"

    not even honda, toyota, or BMW has dethroned nissan's VQ engines...how would ford?
  • avenger1avenger1 Member Posts: 90
    and leave the p!ssing contest to another forum. There's only so many times you can say "my car's better than yours" before you sound juvenile.

    Anyway...does anyone know what plans for has for the Fusion and hybrid options? Will there also be a diesel option in 2006-7 with the new fuel regulations?
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Johnclineii, its worth noting that no passenger car without airbags has ever gotten anything other than a "Poor" in this test. Its not a test that cars (being hit by a simulated midsize SUV) will ever pass without inflatable side impact protection. Id be willing to bet that even the very high scoring Five Hundred would get a POOR without the optional side airbags/curtains in this test.

    More than that, though, this test calls attention to the necessary strong safety cage around the occupants- crumples zones upfront and in back, and a rigid cage and door structures. FWIW, most of the small cars were rated 'Marginal', including the top ranked Corolla and Cobalt (with SACs). The Ford Focus was ranked as 'Poor' for structure- Id hope that the Fusion is designed with safety in mind. The only small car that did reasonably well in that measure was the Mazda 3, earning an 'Acceptable' for structure.

    Also- someone recently posted the MPGs for lots of different vehicles. Among the minivans, I wanted to point out that that post included figures for the Toyota Sienna AWD, and the FWD Sienna is rated at 19/27.

    ~alpha
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    The Fusion will incorporate a structural cross beam under the B-pillar, same as the 500, which should help it in side impacts. According to IIHS, the test simulates impact with a 3100lbs SUV. Does anyone know of a 3100lbs SUV ?

    The diesels have yet to be planned out, till the government specifically states what is exactly allowed pertaining to that. If so, your looking at 2008, but nothing on concrete just yet.

    The 3.5L will enter the 500 first, but not much longer the Fusion will receive it. Hybrid engines phase-in has been moved ahead of original time.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    I thought it was 3300lb SUV, and yea, thats light for a midsize ute, but thats dead on what many of the larger compact utes are.

    ~alpha
  • dbauerdbauer Member Posts: 416
    the problem with these side-impact tests, is that they determine the outcome based on external head injuries. the safety cage does nothing for the impact of the brain against the inside of the skull. nothing can minimize this. it only reduces intrusion to lower blunt-force external trauma.

    they also do these tests at 40+ MPH, which is a very unrealistic speed that ANY vehicle can protect the occupant. beleive it or not, the average impact speed in all 2-vehicle accidents is barely over 20 MPH.

    my point is that SACs cannot stop internal head trauma, such as concussions. they cant test for this, so until they can, these types of tests are a complete waste of time, IMO.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    3300lbs is correct, my source told me 3100lbs. I guess under 3300lbs we could possibly find 2 small SUV's, and not even since once you option them out, your hitting 3400-3600lbs. They should have just gone all the way and used a 4500lbs example instead.

    They are possibly doing this to give it a smaller goal, then when automaker's catch up, grow the size/weight of the crash barrier to reflect a larger vehicle.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    According to IIHS, the test simulates impact with a 3100lbs SUV. Does anyone know of a 3100lbs SUV?

    That's light for an SUV - the Explorer weighs over 4,000 lbs. The results would be worse IMHO.

    According to the IIHS, they test at 31 mph w/ a 3,300 lbs simulated SUV.

    In an interview I saw this AM, the Lancer had the B pillar sheared. The Beetle had great intrusion. The key in these tests is that the SUV/Pickup Truck simulator misses the lower door structure - just like in the real world.

    Now the 500 may do better because it is raised a bit. The Fusion - I doubt it.

    As for head/brain injuries, I'm not an expert. But if my head hit an airbag as opposed to the window/intruding vehicle, I think I was fare better.
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