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Ford Fusion/Mercury Milan

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Comments

  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Personally, I liked the Future that became the Batmobile! That was a concept!!!
  • tomcat630tomcat630 Member Posts: 854
    Yes, the 1961(?) Lincoln Futura concept car became the Batmobile.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    yeah, THAT one......
  • setzersetzer Member Posts: 127
    Okay, this is the size of the Taurus. It will replace it, right? Then why is everyone at the Ford 500 board saying that the 500 is the Taurus's replacement?
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    The Futura will replace the Taurus, the 500 will "supplement" the Crown Vic for those who want FWD/AWD. Or for those who wish to grow into something a bit bigger than the Taurus, but the 500 is definately not a 500 replacement. Ironically I've read this error on some other media sites that haven't updated their information.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Ok, I'm confused now. I thought the 500 was dimensionally larger than the Taurus, smaller than the Crown Vic, and eventually would replace the Taurus. What am I missing?
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    will be replaced by two models. The luxurious Passat like Ford Five Hundred, and the more Camry and Accord like Ford Futura. To make it easier, think of the Futura as a redesigned Ford Contour back from hiatus (It's closer in price to the Contour than the Taurus) and think of the Five Hundred as a Taurus gone upscale.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    "Ok, I'm confused now. I thought the 500 was dimensionally larger than the Taurus, smaller than the Crown Vic, and eventually would replace the Taurus. What am I missing? "

    During Jac Nasser's reign at Ford, the original plan was to have the Taurus grow into a larger vehicle stemming from a Volvo derived platform. But because of the pricy P2 Volvo platform, there would be no way for Ford to have kept the price low enough to what current Taurus prices are.

    So in came the 500, a vehicle that would ideally have been able to compete against Chrysler LHS sedans, FWD and fullsize. BUT Chrysler is going RWD in that segment. Therefore Ford has mentiond the Avalon and Buick's to be it's main target. Advantage with Ford will be availability of AWD, plus interior room will be a bit greater.

    The Futura will be Mazda6 derived which is a great thing. And will be packaged and targeted towards Accord and Camry buyer's. Again, both vehicles will make the most of their dimensions...Keeping tight exterior dimensions, yet have large interiors just as the Focus was able to do.
  • theo2709theo2709 Member Posts: 476
    ANT do you know if this Montego interior shot is real?

    http://199.239.248.45//images/stk/2005/mc2005montego02.jpg

    Much obliged.
  • tomcat630tomcat630 Member Posts: 854
    Another "original plan" under Jac Nassar was to sell 70% trucks. They thought that Explorers and Expeditions would keep up double digit sales increases forever. No thought to car buyers.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    Theo, yes that's what the interior will look like. Notice the VW like instrumentation that is beginning to show up on Freestar/Monterey, F-150. Same with the stereo and A/C buttons as well. In fact, the center console looks very Freestar like along with it's center mounted clock and upper storage big.

    But the Montego will be a 500 twin. Mercury has not yet mentioned the name for it's Futura twin.
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    guesses on name for the Mercury version of the Futura? Mystique might work.
  • bretaabretaa Member Posts: 130
    I have no inside info, but given the Freestar and F-150 interiors, I could believe this is the Montego's design. In fact, a lot of the components look shared, which is actually an OK thing to do as long as the parts are attractive and high quality (which these appear to be). Audi and Toyota/Lexus do that all the time, and no one complains... I'd like to see a bit more "high style," but give how high quality these interiors appear compared to recent domestic efforts (look at the new Malibu, Ion, and GM pickups for example), I'll certainly take these Ford efforts.

    Bret
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Maybe they'll revive the Montclair name... Seems they are totally focused on alliteration...

    I hope they forgetabout the Mistake....
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Have you been in a Malibu or read the reviews?
    The ION and Malibu are in completely different leagues in terms of interior design/materials quality. Personally, I'm not impressed with the picture shown in that link for the Montegos interior. The Freestar interior may have high quality materials, but it looks like its been lifted from some late 80s Toyota. I find the same with the Montego interior. Slap all the wood and pretty leather stitching on it you want, the basic design screams last decade (or two). No doubt though, the increase in quality is very welcome, and Ford seems to be leading the import mfr. assualt compared to DCX and GM.

    ~alpha
  • theo2709theo2709 Member Posts: 476
    I'm surprised no one else thinks that the radio and HVAC controls are very cheap looking.
  • rctennis3811rctennis3811 Member Posts: 1,031
    surprised me the most. I thought that it would at least have digital climate control! Maybe it'll be on higher models. I personally like the interior.
  • ehaaseehaase Member Posts: 328
    I would prefer that Monarch or Meteor be used for Mercury's version of the Futura. Whatever it is called, we know it will start with an M, and it probably will be a name from the past.
  • rctennis3811rctennis3811 Member Posts: 1,031
    What about Turnpike? The Mercury Turnpike was a very popular sedan in the 50s-60s because it was innovative in its segment. Many people bought it, and it is one of the most famous names in Mercury history.
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    won't work because Mercury (and the rest of Ford) is focused on alliteration.
  • rctennis3811rctennis3811 Member Posts: 1,031
    I read about that in C/D....oops, my mistake
  • bretaabretaa Member Posts: 130
    To alpha01:
    I *have* been in the Malibu and Ion, and while the Malibu is much better than the Ion and light years ahead of its predecesors, it still isn't as good as its competitors. The design especially is bland and uninspired.

    The US is one of the homes of design. From the Apple I-Macs to I-Pods, to home design, to movies, to Target-ware the US produces world beating design. Why can't we do it in our automobiles?

    Bret
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    We just don't! Beats the hell out of me why, too.
    I think LIncoln is doing it world class right now. Oops, except in the Town Car. Sorry.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    The Mercury version's name will start with an "M" .
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    Oh, we can produce those products. It's just that the automakers won't. You have your designer stuff at Target, your stylish computers and MP3 players from Apple, why not in a car from Detroit?
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    Other factors are involved. Would many people pay $90K for an american vehicle ? They rather spend it on a MB (which are taxi's in Europe) or Lexus (which are Toyota's in Japan), but how many would pay such an amount for an american vehicle?

    So then it leads to, "well, if they actually built a good product, then some would"... And that's currently the perception that many will have to deal with for awhile. The onslought of bad products in the 80's and 90's from Detroit has soured many to a point where they are rather closeminded about it.

    I actually have one friend with a Passat, she has sunk $7000 of her own money in that unreliable piece of garbage. At one auto parts store where I went to buy a part for her, someone had asked "has your Passat been reliable" she actually said yes! I turned to her with a wide eyed look on me, corrected HER in front of the guy, made her OPEN up her eyes and focus at the stupidity she just said. YET she doesn't like my american manufactured sedan that has never seen a repair center, because she says "oh it's just a Ford".

    So this philosphy will require sometime, IF it's something people can get over. It'll take 10 years of Detroit improving in every segment, for the thinking to fade away.

    Can Detroit pull it off? Surel.... just in 2-3 years GM and Ford have improved in efficiency reports, reliability ratings, initial quality ratings, even Consumer Reports (which I dislike because of their reporting methods) actually recommended the Focus as tops... This after the Ford has concentrated on improving the Focus... and they have... So conclusion: They can do it, depends on the effort.
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    It'll take a lot of years and runaway hits (not SUVs) for the buying public to finally reconsider an American car, as the automakers need to put in more effort and make an effort to change their perception. The Chevrolet Cobalt (and Malibu, which has started off with $1000 cash and good reviews from CR) is number 3 (after Aveo and Malibu) of the effort from GM to change the perception about Chevrolet.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    GM was right to fix Cadillac first, and they've gone a long way toward doing just that.

    I wish Ford would focus on the Lincoln car line, like they have the SUV line and get that aging Town Car spiffed up, and not forget about the wonderful LS for too long.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    Here's a story that ironically just popped up on another website (Detroit News) pertaining to perceptions of american vehicles.

    http://www.detnews.com/2003/insiders/0312/29/insiders-20391.htm
  • bretaabretaa Member Posts: 130
    Good article that at the same time gives me hope and makes me mad. I can certainly understand some people's reluctance to go with domestic makers. My parents owned both a Chevy Vega *and* a Plymouth Volare... AT THE SAME TIME! Two of the worst and least reliable cars in history. They replaced engines, transmissions, A/C systems, and enough suspension bits to build a new car. They had enough rust to turn the garage floor tan. My parents switched for a while to Japanese cars like the Nissan Stanza and Acura Integra and loved them. Eventually, they decided to trust US makers again and got Chysler Minivans, PT Cruisers, and Ford Tauri. I myself had a Taurus SHO and Contour SVT.

    But I can understand those mad at domestic makers. I wanted to replace my Contour SVT with a manual near-lux sports sedan. Where's the Contour SVT replacement, known as the Modeo ST220 in Europe? MIA here in the US. Other domestic options? Only one... The very good Cadillac CTS, which had a terrible interior and a local wheeler-dealership straight out of the 1970's. I went with a CPO BMW 3-series instead.

    Look at the Detroit News article. The author talks about the present *and coming* vehicles. That's Detroit's biggest problem. They have no consistency. They make big pushes and then fall behind. Remember all the great cars the US makers had coming out in the mid-90's? The Chrysler "cloud cars," the Contour, the Focus, the W-sedans, etc. They came out and many were praised. Their replacements? Mediocre at best, if we yet have any replacements at all (the Regal/Impala et al are still around, we won't even get the European Focus replacement here, and it only took Saturn about 9 years to replace the S-series with the terrible Ion).

    When instead of making a big push and redesigning a ton of models at once with much fanfare to only let them languish and flouder, Detroit instead should emulate the Japanese and European ethos of continuous improvement and quick turnaround times. If GM, Ford, and Chrysler can keep replacing their "yet to be released" models every four or five years with version as competitive as those from the rest of the world, then let me know in 2 or 3 generational cycles.

    Otherwise, it'll be more woe if we're looking at roughly the same Malibu, Cobalt, Magnum, Durango, 500, and Freestyle in 2011 as we're seeing in 2004. Think they'll still be "competitive" then?

    Bret
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    we'll be looking at the same 500 in 2015.
  • bretaabretaa Member Posts: 130
    Good article that at the same time gives me hope and makes me mad. I can certainly understand some people's reluctance to go with domestic makers. My parents owned both a Chevy Vega *and* a Plymouth Volare... AT THE SAME TIME! Two of the worst and least reliable cars in history. They replaced engines, transmissions, A/C systems, and enough suspension bits to build a new car. They had enough rust to turn the garage floor tan. My parents switched for a while to Japanese cars like the Nissan Stanza and Acura Integra and loved them. Eventually, they decided to trust US makers again and got Chysler Minivans, PT Cruisers, and Ford Tauri. I myself had a Taurus SHO and Contour SVT.

    But I can understand those mad at domestic makers. I wanted to replace my Contour SVT with a manual near-lux sports sedan. Where's the Contour SVT replacement, known as the Modeo ST220 in Europe? MIA here in the US. Other domestic options? Only one... The very good Cadillac CTS, which had a terrible interior and a local wheeler-dealership straight out of the 1970's. I went with a CPO BMW 3-series instead.

    Look at the Detroit News article. The author talks about the present *and coming* vehicles. That's Detroit's biggest problem. They have no consistency. They make big pushes and then fall behind. Remember all the great cars the US makers had coming out in the mid-90's? The Chrysler "cloud cars," the Contour, the Focus, the W-sedans, etc. They came out and many were praised. Their replacements? Mediocre at best, if we yet have any replacements at all (the Regal/Impala et al are still around, we won't even get the European Focus replacement here, and it only took Saturn about 9 years to replace the S-series with the terrible Ion).

    When instead of making a big push and redesigning a ton of models at once with much fanfare to only let them languish and flouder, Detroit instead should emulate the Japanese and European ethos of continuous improvement and quick turnaround times. If GM, Ford, and Chrysler can keep replacing their "yet to be released" models every four or five years with version as competitive as those from the rest of the world, then let me know in 2 or 3 generational cycles.

    Otherwise, it'll be more woe if we're looking at roughly the same Malibu, Cobalt, Magnum, Durango, 500, and Freestyle in 2011 as we're seeing in 2004. Think they'll still be "competitive" then?

    Bret
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    those won't be competitive anymore, as the newest versions of Passat, Camry, Accord, Pilot, Highlander and 4Runner will be out on the road.
  • bretaabretaa Member Posts: 130
    Don't know what happened....
  • tomcat630tomcat630 Member Posts: 854
    "Remember all the great cars the US makers had coming out in the mid-90's? The Chrysler "cloud cars," the Contour, the Focus, the W-sedans, etc."

    The Focus was in 1999, for 2000, and the W cars date back to 1988.

    "those won't be competitive anymore, as the newest versions of Passat, Camry, Accord, Pilot, Highlander and 4Runner will be out on the road.'

    Nobody can claim that the US makes coming out now will stay around as long as the older cars. ALso, VW is falling behind with updates, the Jetta and Passat are now in their 5th/6th year. Who's to say the "new" Passat will will "All new" sooner?
  • bretaabretaa Member Posts: 130
    "Nobody can claim that the US makes coming out now will stay around as long as the older cars. also, VW is falling behind with updates, the Jetta and Passat are now in their 5th/6th year. Who's to say the "new" Passat will will "All new" sooner?"

    That's *exactly* my point! The Detroit News article is arguing, somewhat, that the gap between domestic and import makers is really all image right now and not product based. Even if you buy that (and I'm not sure I do yet), I argue that until until the U.S. makers *update* just as frequently as the Japanese, the product gap (and thus the image gap) will be real. Wake me up in 12 years and we'll see if they've improved in this respect. Will we see the new third generation Cobalt or second generation Futura by then? As I said, history suggests that we'll be seeing only warmed over versions of our current "debut" products at that point (look the "new" Buick and Saturn minivans).

    Regarding VW, you're right that they don't update as frequently as the Japanese either. BUT, VW's new products are usually class leading when they debut (the new Toureg has won several comparison tests, for example, as the Passat and Jetta did initially). Now, years later, the Passat is *still* winning tests and the new one is a year or two away. How many years did the BMW 5-series crush its competition from the get-go until the very end of its last generation? The otherwise very good CTS was still mid to rear pack in comparison tests on debut, and it still doesn't have a competitive interior (I would have bought it if it did). The current brand spanking new (and likely very competent) Malibu came in... seventh... in the recent Edmunds comparison. I'm sure it'll do much better in 2007.

    Again, if the U.S. automakers want to have longer lead in times, that's OK if the products are world beaters out of the gate. But they aren't. They just "OK." I know our countrymen can do better.

    Bret

    PS: Look at the new US Focus. How can Ford bring over the new European Focus platform on the Mazda 3 and Volvo S40 and only "redo" the old Focus for the US? What does that say about how Ford views its US brand and their US buyers? Ford has an opportunity to crush its competition Chevy and Honda and lets it pass... A shame...
  • rctennis3811rctennis3811 Member Posts: 1,031
    Ford and GM both seem to love their European and Australian customers more. Ford has awesome engines in Australia, excellent crisp designs, and luxurious interiors. Same goes for GM in Australia. Ford/GM in Europe also has the same things, except for the engines as most people will buy a diesel or something economical. Why do we need the Futura or 500?? They could have just imported the Mondeo as the Futura and the Falcon as the 500. Saves money too!
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    saves a lot of money- and you could even make more money by charging what you'd charge for the Futura and 500 right now. I'll pay for a NAV system, DVD Entertainment, Front and rear Parking sonars and a Power Moonroof, all of which are optional on the European Mondeo.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    Ford has studied bringing over the Mondeo in the past. If we were to convert the cost of federalizing the Mondeo and shipping it over, we would be looking at a $28-34K sedan. Not many american's will pay that amount for that size of a vehicle, nor could they perceive it as a Taurus replacement either.

    The Euro Focus, and NA Focus aren't that different. C1 vs. C170 platform. The media has painted as if the Euro Focus is vastly a different platform from the current one, as if it were a totally new vehicle....Ideally, they are almost the same except some structural reinforcements on the frontal area. No one would be able to tell the difference either way. Nothing a bit of suspension tuning, and noise insulation can improve on the NA Focus, to make it "feel" as if it were the Euro Focus.

    And let's take in another point. IN europe, vehicles are mostly about quality over quantity. The Focus has techonology options that aren't available here. Mainly because people will stick to a specific size class of a vehicle, and manufacturer's cater them in various trims to suit all needs. Whereas in the U.S., people perceive "small "size as economy, and fullsize cars as luxurious. Some people can't understand why a VW Jetta can top $26K fully loaded with a V6, and still be classified as a sub-compact. Most american consumer's expect to jump into the full-size class, when reaching that price point....But this is a whole other topic on it's own.

    We can't expect the N.A. Focus to be saddled with all this techological options. Let's be lucky it even has Advance-Trac available. Most consumer's will not pay for such options for a perceived "economy" sized car. So again, it's a different perception on the consumer's behalf.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Makes sense to me....
  • biggie2biggie2 Member Posts: 45
    Me too.

    Is their any word on how good the 500 and futura will be once they debut. How much effort has Ford really put into these vehicles.

    Also, is the Futura scheduled for release in '06?? or '05??
  • ehaaseehaase Member Posts: 328
    Futura will debut for 2006 model year.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    "Is their any word on how good the 500 and futura will be once they debut. How much effort has Ford really put into these vehicles.

    Also, is the Futura scheduled for release in '06?? or '05?? "

    Here's Ford Media Kit on the 500, you should read it and it'll tell you of the effort and engineering placed upon the vehicle.

    http://media.ford.com/products/model.cfm?vehicle_id=1051

    Source: Ford Media.

    The Futura will be released in '05 as a '06 Vehicle.
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    yep, I agree. Europeans are more about quality whereas us Americans are more about quantity. I guess it's perception- I know my neighbor would never dump $26K on a Jetta VR6 unless it was badged as some luxury brand and not as a Volkswagen or if it were a Passat, he could understand hitting $26K. But, a decontented Mondeo didn't work- that car was called Contour, and sales tanked for as long as the Contour/Mystique were on the market. (95-2000)
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,242
    That's a rather odd statement, given that vehicles are generally more expensive in Europe for the same make/model. I just went looking for a VW Golf, and a used '03 is listed at about $23K USD. I've also rented some of the lousiest vehicles in Europe, including the Ford Festiva. It's the same as here - people generally buy what they can afford.

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  • bretaabretaa Member Posts: 130
    To Kirstie:
    It's been well documented that cultural expectations are different on cars. Europeans (and to a different extent, the Japanese) have tended for their $23,00 to place highly on their lists such intangibles as solidity, panel gaps, plastic quality, overall refinement, etc. far ahead of such traditional American priorities as size, roominess, price, equipment levels, mechanical reliability, etc. Multiple industry executives and journalists with worldwide experience have said this again and again. It's one of the reasons such US hits (Ford Explorer, Toyota Camry, Chrysler Minivans, old-style Honda Accord) have never had much European success.

    For example, I have a Contour SVT. When I bought it, a neighbor was mystified why I would buy it vs a similarly priced Dodge Intrepid that was much bigger, roomier, higher equipment levels, etc. When I explained to him that the handling, refinement, engineering, etc. were, in my opinion, vastly superior, I got blank stares back. It's just different expectations.

    I just bought a certified preowned 3-series for the same reasons. Fleets of friends of mine are in Lexi, VW's, Audi's, etc. for exactly the same reasons. Growing numbers of people expect the same detailing and refinement in their cars that they get in their ski gear, MP3 players, PDA's, watches, etc. Our domestic makers ignore this at their peril (which, thankfully, it's starting to look like they are paying attention).

    Bret
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    has it's share of lousy cars. I'll start with the Festiva, and won't go any further. Americans generally prefer size, as you see many people are flocking to Accords and Camrys while Jettas aren't selling in as large numbers. In Europe, where space is tight, people generally buy the most expensive small car they can afford before jumping to the larger version. (From Focus-Mondeo, from Jetta/Golf- Passat)
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    You mean, Fiesta.... Actually the new Fiesta is quite a hit in Europe, and the detail and refinement found therein, makes it one of the more attractive buys in the small "B" class category in Europe.

    To think, the old Festiva in the U.S. (really a Kia) was up there with Geo in jokes to be made. Currently Ford is studying bringing over the Brazillian made Fiesta, to offer it as a (under Focus) offering to battle the Korean entry vehicles. The only issue that might curtail that idea might be UAW. But the Ecosport has been a huge success over in Brazil, and that's another possibility of coming over to the U.S. , and place it under the Escape, as an smaller SUV offering.

    It's ironic how the better selling vehicles here in the U.S., do not register a bleep over in Europe. And it's true, it's all about perceptions and cultural expectations.

    Many U.S. consumer's have this Wal-mart type of buying behavior that is shifting buying habits. Many would rather buy a $16 iron and toss it out when it falls on the floor the first time and breaks. Instead of buying the $45 quality iron that will last them 20 years easily. (The latter explains buying habits in Europe). Naturally the $16, easy to break iron helps supply the U.S. with jobs.

    Everytime that iron breaks, another one must be bought to replace it. And it becomes a cycle. But consumer's are now realizing that the only person benefitting from this is the 3rd world country where that $16 iron is being built. There's a spanish expression (rhyme's in spanish though) "Lo barato sale carro" (I hope I spelled it right), which translates to "What is cheap, comes out expensive in the long term".

    And that's what's currently happening with current domestic vehicles. And naturally, they had/ and have had to adapt to consumer's needs/wants. It's because of this that such lousy vehicles have been offered to us. (Personally, I never had an issue with Fords and we've had plenty of them, just RWD and V8's though). Now for effort is being placed towards long term quality, but only as long as people are willing to pay for it.

    We've seen, and so have domestic manufacturer's, that consumer's are willing to pay (without rebates) higher prices for Accords and Camry's. And with the introduction of the Ford F-150, we have seen that people are willing to pay a higher price, for the higher trim models. Therefore, this needs to be established in other vehicles, without implementing huge rebates.

    So the next few years while american auto-manufacturer's are introducing new vehicles (with higher quality standards), and quality/dependability ratings are increasing, we will need to see and analyze if consumer's are willing to change their perception over domestic vehicles.
  • f111df111d Member Posts: 114
    Upscale Upscale Upscale, no more affordable bang for your buck Ford's. So I suppose the Futura is going to closely model the 500? Common sense no where in sight bigger, taller, more upscale and look at me ain't I something, morgartage to the hilt and can't understand why I'm not enjoying life??? Yeah Boy that's the life for me NOT!!!!!!!
    Explains the proliferation of all the "Books for Dummies" in the USA.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    The Futura will have the packaging attributes of the 500, as in tidy exterior dimension, but huge interior. And the same level of interior attention as the 500. Based on the Mazda6 platform.
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