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Shop around, the prices are not "astounding", they are par for the course, maybe slightly low actually.
-juice
Mark
One if the most important reasons to have dealers in the community is to protect customers. A dealer has to live in a community and needs a good reputation to survive in this business environment.
Rebates are bad I think everyone in the auto industry concedes that rebates do several bad things and no long term good things.
First a rebate devalues all vehicles already on the road by the amount of the rebate. If you buy a truck with a $2,000 rebate and next month there is a $4,000 rebate, you just lost $2k in equity on your truck. Its like the car company stole money out of your pocket.
This devaluing then bites the manufacturers in the butt when they try to get rid of off lease cars at auction. Fleets are also bad for this reason.
For instance over the past few years, say during the 04 model year, an 04 Taurus with a new car msrp of over $22k would sell at auction after a rental company put 12k to 18k miles on it for under $10k. Why would someone pay over $17k after discounts and rebates when the pre-owned unit could be had for $12k?
The next bad thing that rebates do is they draw ahead business. For instance, Mr Jones was thinking about buying next summer after his car is paid off. But during Christmas the manufacturer puts out a rebate that makes the deal too god for Mr. Jones to pass up. He buys in December which is good for that year but come July, he is out of the market and the only way to replace him in the market is to offer another fat rebate and draw ahead another customer.
What GM is doing is mostly a gimmick. For all of the models they are offing this pricing plan on they have chopped the rebates that were offered on the same model prior to this campaign starting.
What GM is doing is bad for Customers in the long run because it is taking the element of competitiveness among dealers away.
At the Ford store I work at outside Philly, we have about eleven other ford stores with in a 30min drive. The number one reason why customers by a new car at my dealership is they wanted a Ford. Right now I am competing against the other Ford stores. This is good for customers.
Another thing about haggling. Customers say they don't like it but in reality, they still want to haggle over trade-in value. Customers still want to think they got a good deal. If every one pays the same price, you have to change the way American's think about buying cars.
Finally, the new car market is already very transparent. Thanks to Edmunds.com everyone already knows invoice and hold back on any new car, along with all available incentives. This GM pricing plan doesn't really change what a customer could buy a new car for.
Used cars is where dealers make their profit. Used car buyers are very different from new car buyers.
Mark
Overall, I think this vehicle (and the Fusion) will follow the same path of the Five Hundred/Montego. A decent car, but not very special, except for the AWD option. Based on the Milan I was in, if its going to compete with the Sonata, Accord, and next-gen Camry, this car had better ride like Lexus and handle like a BMW.
The vehicle is VERY attractively styled, IMO, except for the awkward taillights. Especially viewed from the front, the car is handsome, aggressive, and classy. The alloys are polished in finish and impressively sharp. Exterior styling is a big thumbs up, IMO.
The stark interior is a different matter. The stitched leather looked like it had already seen 50,000 miles worth of use, with heavy creasing and spots of discoloration. Perhaps a preproduction issue, but noteworthy nonetheless. The instrumentation is awful, with small, and to my eyes, unattractive gauges. The needles are so short, as is Mercury's current style, as to mitigate the usefulness... good luck guessing your actual MPH. Reminds me of Buicks, actually, and Im not sure thats the feeling FoMoCo is going for with these new offerings.
OTOH, the center stack is logically arranged, and easy to figure out at first glance. The storage bin on top of it is flimsy and shallow, however, and the doors lack any type of color contrast except for the interior chrome door handles.
The rear seat is roomy, but no more so than the new Sonata, which I think Ford should really be worried about. But better than the Legacy, which has been mentioned several times, as an AWD competitor (the Legacy GT-L interior is much more nicely finished than is this Milan's IMO, with the electroluminescent instrumentation, seemingly better leather, and more contrasting colors and better styling).
just my .02, but without having driven it, the other manufacturers dont have much to worry about. Power on the lowish side doesnt stir any enthusiasm, either.
~alpha
Some interior photos have been added as well. They've got a picture of the left side of the dash from an SEL with a neutral interior. It's two-tone and IMO, more attractive than the all-black of the previous shots I've seen.
Moving forward...isn't that Toyota's slogan. :surprise:
Ford is supposed to copy GM's strategy, the question is can they still make a profit selling the cars at low prices? And will the increases be temporary, i.e. only while the offer lasts?
-juice
So Ford and Chrysler join them. Let's see how this affects them long-term.
-juice
From what I gather, the Fusion will be right there with the rest of the class of midsize sedans. I think that the Sonata represents a better value and the Accord and Camry are probably likely to last longer. It'll sell. It won't displace the Camry, but it'll bring some much needed green back to Ford.
This whole Employee Pricing thing is surely nice for the consumer, but what will happen next? You can bet that the domestic automakers don't want to cede back the market share that they will gain from this. And they surely won't want the other domestic companies selling better because they have bigger incentives! They are all in this Employee pricing mess now, and I don't think that they will be able to drop it very easily. Sure, I've been told that they can just raise the "Employee price" incrementally, but how many increments would it take to get back to normal?
And meanwhile, we have Honda, and especially Toyota and Nissan sitting on the sidelines, quaking with laughter seeing these automotive giants giving their cars away.
Body on frame SUVs have a limited life now. The Exploder, even after its redesign, may have to play second fiddle saleswise to the Trailblazer from now on. Ford is too reliant on SUV's and trucks. This is why the Fusion's success is imperitive for Ford.
Except that....
By offering all these cool features on the Milan/Fusion, the question is, "Why buy a Lincoln Zephyr?" The Zephyr's only distinction from the Milan/Fusion are these features, and the Lincoln badge. Offering such options would be killing Zephyr sales.
But according to sources, a fully loaded Zephyr is still thousands below the competition, and that is what Lincoln is counting on for it to sell.
Ford should offer a premium sound system, but not THX. THX should be kept for Lincolns only. From what I hear, a sound system from the Mustang/Ranger/Focus would do. (Visteon/Pioneer/Sony)
Navigation wouldn't be too bad though....however the lack of one shouldn't make one not buy a Fusion.
-juice
Better to loose a few in-house Lincoln sales to Ford or Mercury than to loose sales to Toyota, Honda, Nissan, or Hyundai.
In fact, ofering those features on the Fusion and Milan would probably kill more high profit Toyota/Lexus, Honda/Acura, and Nissan/Infiniti sales than sales to other Ford divisions. There is one advantage to having "damaged" brand names - you can do things which those other companies will not do. It would be fun to watch Ford take away sales from them (Ford thinks that just because you don't need or want to pay for a luxury brand car, you should still be able to have the luxury features you want. For just $xx you can have a Fusion with a, b, and c, while you would have to spend $$$$$ to buy an Acura--- / Lexus--- with the same features. The all wheel drive will really work in such a comparison - When the AWD and 3.5 V6 become available in the Fusion (and Five Hundred), the only Toyota with AWD will still probably be the Lexus G.
I'm not sure about Mercury, but a performance Ford variant could sell well. The Mustang that is in highest demand is the GT, not the V6.
-juice
Why do I care? Because I really want Ford to suceed. I have a new Mountaineer on order. Also, our Mercedes C230 is still under warranty, and is holding value well (especially since we got it cheap), but enough things have gone wrong that we are more and more likely to replace it with a Fusion or Mustang before the warranty runs out and the value drops.
thanks
Having fixed packages doesn't seem to hurt that much - it's amazing how 300K + people every year just accept being forced into buying things they don't want.
Honda's strategy "all or nothing" has worked pretty well from them for years.
Toyota does have more flexiblity than Honda, but you will get Sunroof and leather standard on XLEV6 models (and it should be) because you have two other V6 models to choose from if you don't want it. Leather is not standard on the XLEI4, SE or SEV6. But a sunroof is standard on the SE (but can be deleted)
Nissan, probably the MOST flexible of the Japanese, allows everything to be optional except on the 3.5SL where leather and sunroof are standard, but the 3.5SE has everything from sunroof, spoiler to leather and HIDs optional.
Mazda's also very flexible as well...everything is optional except on top-of-the-line models...
The bottomline is that the Japanese aren't that bad when it comes to optional features and the way they do things seems to be working.
Also when you do bundle things, it allows the base prices of cars to be cheaper and thus saves the consumer more money.
That's why when you do add all the optional features of some of the domestic cars to compete with what comes standard in say, what an Accord EXV6 has, the cars like the Impala come out to be more expensive (before rebates)
People come check it out, then buy a base/automatic. Yet in these forums, they talk about the hot versions of the car they own. That's true for a 325i owner (M3) all the way to a Cobalt owners (SS).
-juice
Lincoln could offer things like VOICE RECOGNITION and REAL TIME TRAFFIC along with the super THX system to differentiate itself. The biggest differentiation should be on other things, like the sound the door makes when it closes. The way the car goes over bumbs. The Lincoln should be quieter and more refined, thats what will differentiate it from the ford and mercury.
Ford needs to do things that other brands wont to attract people into the showroom.
What Accord has Xenon??
The Meta One is a "concept" vehicle that introduces a few possible items. Now, in relation to the Meta One (idea of it being a Freestyle cousin), that is definately a go (and 2 other Ford family branches will receive a copy of it)... In relation to the vehicle having the drivetrain features on the Meta One concept, not exactly... The concept illustrates and hints at us, of a possible drivetrain of efficiency. But instead of reading inbetween the lines, it's best to sum it up that it'll probably offer something fuel efficient... then we look at the Ford portfolio, and we see the Hybrid possibility, hence, that's what you might see.
I often tell people (when viewing concepts at a first stage)...Blur your vission, what you see, is what might make it. What wows you, might make it (even if it's a simple air-vent). If you see major information given on the drivetrain, understand it's something not conventional, but not far out either. If you see design elements that simply won't meet federal crash standards, obviously it'll be watered down...
I dislike how sometimes so much money is used on concept vehicles to WOW people, yet, hardly anything of the vehicle itself makes it, ahhhhhhh
Sounds a lot like the Lincoln Zephyr concept, a truly majestic automobile.
Just my opinion!
Actually, I might be in a Mazda 6 right now if it weren't for the options packaging. Yes, everything is optional, but to get certain options (the sunroof in my case), other options must be purchased. Engaging in negotiations with the dealer was like taking a trip back to the Propositional Philosophy course I had in college... if this, then this... if this, not that... this only if that and this... never this...
If memory serves, about $2500 worth of additional optional equipment was the price of admission for the sunroof. I guess that's fine for some folks, but I didn't care to pop for the air bag symphony package and I was adamant about NOT getting the Pontiacesque ground effects (with complementary air dam) as well as the 17 inch wheels and horn that played "Tijuana Taxi".
What Ford is doing right is making the polarizing options a la carte. The imports don't seem to get this. Sunroofs and leather don't go together like PB and J. I hate leather (I absolutely will not own another car with leather), but need a sunroof. Some folks are the opposite. Some want both. And some don't want either. If cos. want to package options that aren't polarizing, fine. I can live with a trip computer if that's what it takes to get the sunroof. I just won't use it - that's all.
On the matter of wheels, I'm really getting annoyed with this trend toward increased diameters. For most passenger cars, anything over 16 is too much wheel IMO. For a select group of shoppers it's a style thing, but as I like to say, beauty is in the eye of the beerholder. Personally, I've never viewed sidewall as all that heinous. It's interesting... a guy where I used to work mounted 18 inchers on his Golf and he couldn't drink coffee in it afterward because the thing rode like a mechanical bull on anything other than glass-smooth pavement. But it sure looked cool to have less than 2 inches of sidewall... oh yeah.
My commute is torturous enough as it is. I don't feel the masochistic urge to be beaten into submission while behind the wheel.
I could see if Ford had taken the approach of the competition and given the Zephyr a look that wasn't at all like the lower models.
For example. The TL looks a lot different from the Accord, the ES330 looks a lot less like the Camry.
But the Zephyr looks like a Fusion (Milian espeically) with a slightly different grille.
That is going to be a problem for Ford I am willing to bet. They just can't do much right it seems. They should have learned all of this stuff by now.
I do like the Fusion however, but the Zephyr is a waste of Money IMO, and it will probably be a flop.
Ford had a PERFECT opportunity to build the Zephyr concept to have something different from the Fusion, but they didnt..
As for me, I don't care. And I do NOT like low profile tires OR sunroofs OR leather. The ONLY reason I don't own a Mazda6 or a 626 now is that years ago to get ABS brakes you had to get a sunroof. The next time, to get something or other I really wanted, you had to get a sunroof AND leather.
For now at least, the Fusion doesn't require that. At least on paper. Toyotas don't require such things either, ON PAPER. In reality, finding a Camry equipped the way the customer wants it can be a major pain or even impossible.
One last factor. Dealers order cars. They decide how the lot inventory will be equipped. I've ordered two cars in my life.....One took four months, the other never did come. The first was a GM, the latter a Ford....Years ago? No. The last was a Five Hundred. Safety package delayed it. For months and months and months. Ended up taking a gold one instead of white from a dealer 150 miles away where I went to pick it up. I wanted a Five Hundred. Many others would have just mosied over to the friendly local competition and bought something else....
It's funny though. Detroit (as it is called) keeps losing share, but it is largely the imports that have the take it or leave it philosophy on option packages. My head hurts!
Oh and from this we should assume that the Accord looks nothing like a Acura TL and that the Camry looks nothing like a Lexus ES300.
It always amazes me how people apply a different standard of what is acceptable practice to American car companies vs. Foreign.
Did you see that VW has a recall on the new Jetta?
Did you see that Ford was above average in the latest JD Power long term reliability study and that Nissan was way below average?
Mark
I'll be the first to say that Ford has come a long way reliability wise....
Show me ONE angle that the Accord and Acura TL share in common???
Go look at the TL, then come back and look at the Accord, do they share ANY body panels??? NO.
The TL is a shorter car, with shorter overhangs...the taillights are different and the fronts share NOTHING in common. Look at the side, the TL looks nothing like the Accord....if at first you don't succed..dust yourself off...
Show me ONE angle that the Camry and ES300 share????
Go look at the Camry, then compare it to the ES330. They share no body components. The roof line is different, the door shapes are different, the fronts and the rears are ESPECIALLY different
THEY DON'T...period point BLANK...and try again...
The Zephyr is the EXACT same car as the Fusion/Milian MINUS some changes in the rear (taillights) and some changes up front and it STILL manages too look like a Milian from the front.
The side views are the EXACT same...just like with the Five Hundred/Montego, Escape/Mariner/Tribute, and the Freestar/Monterey
And as I have said before, I never even mentioned reliability...
As far as me saying "they can't do much right" I meant that in the sense that they can't make their products look different from each other.
Even the Acura TSX which is NOTHING but the European Accord manages to look different from the Accord sold here.
You can say whatever you want to say and put words into my mouth, but the fact remains, the Zephyr is nothing more than a dressed up Milian just like how the Mark LT is nothing more than a Ford F150 with a little Bling Bling...
I don't hold a double standard for Foreign companies over American ones..but the simple truth is that Ford needs to make their products DIFFERENT from one another.
The ONLY examples of the Japanese doing the same thing as what Ford and espeically GM love to do are...
1) The Lexus LX470/Toyota Land Cruiser...sold okay
2) The Infiniti QX56 and the Nissan Armada..Infiniti version is a FLOP
3) The Infiniti QX4 and the previous gen. Nissan Pathfinder (both no longer made)
4) The previous Maxima and the discountined I30/I35 trims...sold okay
5) The preivous Gen. Quest and the Mercury Villager...FLOPS
6) The Honda Passport and Isuzu Rodeo (Honda was a MAJOR flop)
You RARELY see the Japanese doing what Ford and GM and to an extent Chrysler do.
But I could go on all day about how Ford/GM do badge engineering...
There is NOTHING wrong with sharing a platform for your cars...but when it comes to the cars looking EXACTLY the same from the side and the ONLY real differences exterior wise, being the front grille and the tacky taillights Lincoln used for the Zephyr, then you have a problem, especially considering that a loaded Zephyr will step into Acura TL territory..
God help that car...
Sure they Japanese and Germans share platforms but they give each variation of those cars different styling..not just a different grille and different (even uglier) taillights on the more expensive verison.
And YES the Zephyr has a different interior from the Fusion, but the Zephyr's interior has this throwback, retro look that comes off looking cheap and I think the Fusion looks better on the inside anyway.
Like I said, the Zephyr is going to need more than a platinum grille and some 50 Cent edition wheels to convince folks that its a better car than the Fusion.
It will go the way of the Blackwood and Thunderbird before its over...
I am for having different versions of the same vehicle. One is brasher, another is more elegant, next is more conservative and the first one is smaller and more sporty with red instrumentation. More choice is better IMHO.
There is no money for Lincoln. They may kill Lincoln eventually or make it another Ford trim like Mercury, Mercury being for younger urban crowd and Lincoln for older people. And replace Lincoln with Jaguar. They may bring Jaguar manufacturing to USA or better to China and make it a new American luxury (after that Jaguar becomes profitable, wow, finally!). Jaguar is hard to kill marque, they can lose money forever but never kill it. Lincoln is another story. Even being profitable nobody cares about Lincoln, they can kill it without remorse to save money and throw it on Jaguar; Lincoln has no global presence and significance. Global is what matters today.
As GM found out it when it shut Olds, closing a line in the USA is frightfully expensive. Also, most Mercury dealers couldn't make it without the highly profitable Lincoln sales. What Lincolns are sold sell at very high profit levels.
Ford isn't about to give that up....not now or anytime soon...
STS and CTS are cars that don't have the EXACT same counterparts for sale as Chevy's, Pontiacs, etc.
The DTS shares a lot in common with the Lucerne, but they look nothing alike.
Ford has to start giving its brands more separate style. You talk about one being brasher, one being more conservative and one being very conservative?
Your point. Toyota manages to do that with the Camry:
LE: Conservative..
SE: More sporty and a little more Brash..
XLE: Conservative with a touch of luxury...
Ford could do the same thing with the Fusion:
SE: Conservative
ST: Sporty, brasher
SEL: Luxurious
But they choose to build three models of the same car that ONLY one car needs to fill.
If a brand needs to go, it should be MERCURY..not Lincoln. Then Ford could work on giving the Lincoln cars more identity and different styling.
My theory is Ford should get the Fusion and Lincoln should have build a Zephyr more in line with the concept in the first place. Mercury should just die off.
You can name on one hand the cars that Mercury has had on its own in recent history..everthing else is shared with Ford or Lincoln.
That's got to stop ASAP.
And Jag could never take over where Lincoln once was..because its simply not an American brand..and Jags have never been big sellers in this country anyway.
I actually think Mercury WAS being allowed to slowly die out until recently.
Look at Canada, for instance, where there is NO Mercury...
Your diagnosis is otherwise very perceptive. I just don't see Jaguar ever becoming a major marque in the USA. Not to mention it bumps into Volvo.
I see Ford at some point selling off one of the two. But who would buy?
GM has a similar problem with SAAB.
But anyway, there is a separate forum here for Lincoln Zephyr discussion (I bet some people reading here didn't know that, I didn't til last night!). We probably had best move our discussion over there unless it somehow directly affects Fusion/Milan...
I generally don't like Ford cars much (aside from the Mustang) but this is by far the best Ford effort I have seen. The 500 was very disappinting. I will definitely keep Fusion on the watch list for the next car. Over all I am quite impressed.
Color,interior design and material,wheels,engine size and did
she have a clutch?
There is nothing different about these three cars except for the Fronts and backs..and the front of the Zephyr and Milan look alike too...though they aren't the same.
Here is the best question. These three cars are based extensively off the Mazda6 platform right?? And this platform has been lengthened and stregthened slightly right? Well if that's the case, why does Mazda pull off a car that manages to look NOTHING like the Fusion/Milian/Zephyr and yet FORD has three triplets?
The cars look too much alike.
And don't even get me started on how the Milian and Fusion share the same interior except for the little "chrome accents" the Milian gets...
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it was a very quick sit in as my wife was waiting as were others who wanted to sit in it, but over all I was impressed. I think the 2.3L was rated at 160hp, the 3.0 V6 was rated at 212hp (but only 205 ft lbs of torque). It may be as fast or faster than the 3.5L G6 though as it had a 6 speed auto listed which surprised me.
BTW what about Buick-GMC-Pontiac thing? Imagine Mercury-Lincoln-Mazda dealerships, it is when Lincoln makes only near luxury trucks, Mercury big near luxury comfortable cars and Mazda smaller upscale sport sedans? And of course as usual Jaguar competes with Cadillac.
LE: Conservative..
SE: More sporty and a little more Brash..
XLE: Conservative with a touch of luxury...
Ford could do the same thing with the Fusion:
SE: Conservative
ST: Sporty, brasher
SEL: Luxurious
But allow me to change it slightly:
Ford Fusion: Conservative
Mercury Milan: Sporty, brasher
Lincoln Zephyr: Luxurious
Hmm, maybe swap Ford and Mercury. But Ford would have a range, from entry-level to sporty SVT.
-juice