Ford Fusion/Mercury Milan

ANT14

Ewww, I could never do marketing. The only good marketing I've seen on Ford's behalf was the "Truth About Trucks" direct advertising. And next up, was Bill Ford talking about specific features on the cars.. Other than that, everything else is foo-foo stuff that doesn't educate customers.

robr2

Other than that, everything else is foo-foo stuff that doesn't educate customers.

Hey hey hey!! I'm in marketing. Customers usually don't want to be educated - they want to be presented with an image they can see themselves in.

carsfordfast

Motortrend has reported that a SVT Fusion would house the MazdaSpeed's inline 4, but that it would make more horses in the Fusion. I have also heard of the 3.5L ST version also.

gobird

Hi everyone, I'm new around here. I'm thinking about buying a Fusion when they come out. Been reading some of the info on this site and just getting informed about this car. I'm very active on another site but that's on the new Thunderbird. I have an 02 Bird and would like to take it off the road as a daily driver and replace it with maybe a 500 or a Fusion. I'll have to wait till they bring the car out before I decide watch one it will be. I'll stay in the background for now and just learn what I can.

remoteraycer

Will the Fusion's 2.3L engine have the same cartridge type oil filter as the Mazda6i?

miwico

Fusion will have the purchased transmission from Aisen....the new Ford /GM 6-speed transmission will not be available for 2-years

jeffyscott

Have they eliminated transmission fluid changes from the maintenance schedule and even the ability to change fluid at a reasonable cost with this aisin transmission?

f111d

I believe I remember someone mention engineers allowed more attention to detail. GREAT! How about the yearly changing of the Cabin Air Filter?
Recently I ran across a mechanic from an automotive news e-mail service, explaining the Honda Accord's cabin air filter change procedure. And Honda's supposed attention to detail? Appalled, disbelief and disgust after reading the article.
The passenger side of the dash looked removed/gutted down to the HVAC box in the picture and I thought it was a chore in my Mystique? It's actually a piece-a-cake compared to the Accord. It looked to me very similar to a friend's radiator/air condition shop when he replacing the evaporator core because of a leak. Which just yesterday a friend with a Chrysler mini-van was quoted 9 1/2 hours of labor to replace.

One big complains about most cars, the engineers have to design for assemble line efficiencies? Fuel pump inside of fuel tank and half the car has to disturbed to replace or just to clean the fuel pick-up sock? This stupidity/maintain costs (troubleshooting/replacing) that's really getting more and more friends across the USA and also in Europe upset. Probably an age think, been there done that, not wasting my hard earned money. Maybe it's just me, since do like to fix things myself and attract similar folks thru Ham radio's sharing of information, maintenance aspects and R & D perfecting of the emergency communications. The FCC licensing even encourages and expects us to do so.
I have many engineering friends electrical, RF and electronic that are all look at maintenance costs of ownership. So far 99% have expressed their destain with Hybrids because they are well aware of costs down the road will be more than double any possible fuel savings. They see it as another fad much like the SUV vanity fad.
So Ant 14 if you would past on our maintenance costs concerns as another aspect of choosing which car to purchase. Oh since the wife has asthma a Hepa cabin air filter would help. Also hard would be to provide dash with access panels like the Air Forces new F-22? Maybe it's the law suits?
I will shut up and quite boring the non maintenance types, because this is just the gist of our decision choices when we decide to buy. Cost of troubleshooting the "CEL."

TNX
Paul
N8BUU

iamsam

From a dealer friend.

baggs32

Can you elaborate a little on what that means please? Are you saying the Fusion will have 221 HP now?

theman123

With all due respect I love the new Fusion. But Ford is using the Duratec 3.0 V6 with VVT. If that's the case, that means it's producing 221 HP. That's more than the Mazda 6 with a V6 that has CVT and VVT. how could Ford do this with a De-tuned V6? If so that would be great, I think to allot of people that would really really bring the Fusion up in their eyes and further ensure it'll be a much needed Homerun for Ford. However, that engine is so old how in the world could they get that kind of horse power from it? Also, is that going to carry over to the Milan and I hope to God the Zephyr ? The Zephyr needs all that help it can get, because people are showing that car no love at all.

iamsam

Yes, V6 in Fusion will have 221HP. As to how, Ford has so many version of Duratec30, you can't lump them altogether and say they are all old. This could be a regular gas tuned LS/Jag (232 w 91 gas, Jag one used to have 240HP) or a fine tuned Mazda6 one. If you believe Ford media, that it has VCT not VVT, then it should be a detuned LS engine.

theman123

Well how many versions of the Duratec 30 are there ? 2nd Ford (or anybody that works for Ford) if you are listening please put this same engine into your Lincoln Zephyr, I think that's the only thing that's going to keep it from being a major disappoint for you. If you do it might give the car a fighting chance up against the Acura TSX. This is great news is it all possible that Ford might actually be listening to what we are saying on the Internet for once. I just hope this new engine doesn't drink premium 91gas. Also, were in the world do you all find this stuff :confuse:
LOL

johnclineii

What is the torque to be now? That really is of far more importance to drivability...horsepower is more use to marketing...torque is what makes cars get up and go...or the lack thereof (relatively speaking) to be slow off the line (again, relatively speaking)...

baggs32

If that's the case, that means it's producing 221 HP. That's more than the Mazda 6 with a V6 that has CVT and VVT. how could Ford do this with a De-tuned V6?

That is exactly why I asked. My Mazda6 produces 220 HP and 192 ft-lbs at a fairly high RPM. Most owners with the ATX (I have the MTX) complain about "off the line" power because there just isn't much down low. I don't see Ford doing this given their history of producing vehicles with generous amounts of torque.

I still think the initial numbers Ford published here are what we are really going to see regardless of what any dealer employee says. Nowhere in that press kit does it say that their numbers are subject to change and the only way I can see them upping the HP is by installing a less restrictive exhaust at this point. Engines for the Fusion and it's sisters are most likely being produced full tilt right now so production of the cars won't be delayed in the near future, and I doubt any last minute changes to the motor are even possible at this point.

I could be totally off but I just don't see the HP increas being possible. Also consider that the '06 Mazda6 will actually have less HP (less than 220) and slightly more torque (more than 192 ft-lbs). That makes the Fusion's rumored power increase even less likely IMHO.

venus537

What is the torque to be now? That really is of far more importance to drivability...horsepower is more use to marketing

yes, torque is important but to say horsepower is more for marketing is going a little overboard. a vehicle is not going anywhere with out horsepower (the engine's ability to work!). keeping the torque at higher revs (horespower) is important to driveability too.

johnclineii

But I didn't say horsepower was more for marketing. What I DID say is marketing has more use for horsepower! That's a whole lot different! To marketers, who have trumpeted horsepower (and almost never mention torque), horsepower IS of more use!

hairong

Talked to him again. HP is 221, Torque is 205. He also said something to the effect that while many dealers usually don't know what they are talking about, if they do want to know something, they normally can find out before the general public.

To theman, here's a list of vehicles that have duratec30 engines:
Ford: Taurus, Escape, 500, Freestyle, Fusion
Mercury: Sable, Mariner, Montego, Milan
Lincoln: LS, Zephyer
Mazda: 6, Tribute, MPV
Jaguar: S-type, X-type

And these are just for NA market. Of all those, there are probably 5 or 6 duratec30 variations.

mschmal

The current Order Guide, which is what dealers use to order cars, states that the 3.0L V6 will have 210 HP@4500rpm. Torque is TBD as is fuel econ, and normal compression ratio. The 2.3L I4 is stated at 160hp@4500rpm

This is the latest info the dealers have.

Mark

ANT14

Some of the new engines Ford will be releasing have understated power. Just like the Mustangs V8, it says 300HP, yet constantly dyno testing shows 20HP more. Numbers aren't always set in stone

explorerx4

uh... what am i supposed think about the tuners that get hp up to 325?

ANT14

Maybe by adding under-drive pullies and lessen the load of accessories, they might be able to make a bit more than the (unclaimed) 325HP. But yes I have seen some of those claims...kinda found them cute...

f111d

Has the IAT idle air control been eliminated? Alias resonate noise maker?
Cabin air filter yes or no?
TNX
Paul

buckwheat

"However, that engine is so old how in the world could they get that kind of horse power from it? Also, is that going to carry over to the Milan and I hope to God the Zephyr ? The Zephyr needs all that help it can get, because people are showing that car no love at all."
http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=21021&make_id=trust

boltman

I will preface this by saying my last 3 vehicles have been Fords! First was an 89 Mustang LX 5.0.. Loved that car and got 150,000 miles on it before I traded it in. Got my wife a 1995 Contour V6 SE and I am still driving it today (95,000) then we bought a 1999 Windstar SE (traded the Mustang) that my wife drives now (also 95K).

The Contour is now 10+ years old and starting to show signs of age although it still drives nice... time to start looking for a newer car.

I considered a used Lexus GS430 (2001) BUT the Premium Fuel requirement killed it in my book with fuel costs likely to go way up.

So without a rock solid reliable used $50,000 car for the low 20,000's(Private Party) I looked at new models again...

So far I've narrowed my choices down to...

The 2006 Sonata LX (V6) looks very hard to beat (I've NEVER considered a Hyundai before) but this car seems to have it all. Waiting for XM standard and hopefully some rebates. Under 24K sticker and loaded (sunroof 6 disc changer) about 21,500 invoice.

and the Ford Fusion (V6) as the other possibility.

Can't wait to drive both!

My benchmarks... a full step better than my current V6 Contour in terms of performance, better MPG, more space, safety, ride and value.

Where will Fusion be better than the new Sonata? Opinions?

alpha01

~alpha

baggs32

alpha,
Not that I've seen but the Zephyr pricing was announced today so I guess the Fusion and Milan won't be far off.

http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=21021&make_id=trust

Everyone else,
I noticed that the Zephyr's Duratec30 will produce 221 HP which was discussed before in regard to the Fusion's version of that motor. However, the Fusion is still listed at 210. Maybe the leaked info was for the Lincoln only?

baggs32

I was too late to edit post #1350 with this info so here it is.

Look here to see the specs of the Zephyr from the original press kit. Still states 210 HP but as you can see from today's pricing announcement, Ford is now telling us that it makes 221 HP. So is that going to hold for the other two of the triplets? Hmmmmmm....

*Another edit*

Here they have 220 HP listed for the Zephyr.

tacoboy

I have heard a couple of things regarding an SVT Fusion for 2007. One is that the Fusion will use the 2.3L I-4 from the Mazdaspeed 6. The other is that there will be a Fusion ST270 featuring Ford's new 3.5L V6. Now I have just read (Autoweek) that Volvo is working on 3 new I6 engines for use across the ford family. An N/A 3.2L ~230hp, and two turbocharged 3.0L engines. I wonder what the odds are that one or more of these will end up in the Fusion line? I'm posting the same question for the 500 over on the other board. Makes even more sense in the 500 considering it's S80 roots.

jcat707

I'm thinking that Ford has done one of two things. Either Lincoln tuned their engine to provide a little more horsepower so that it would better compete with it's rivals and be a little bit more unique from the other two triplets, or as ANT has stated before, Ford understated the horsepower for the Fusion and Milan and given the true horsepower for the Zephyr. Or maybe all three will now have 220 horses.

explorerx4

not kidding, but check out a 2.3 focus. might fit the bill for you and save you a bunch of money. not absolutely sure, but i think the focus has more interior space than the contour. it has really good steering and good power.

theman123

I've also noticed that the V6 engine is requiring that you only have to use 87 Octane (econo) gas as well. While still producing 221 HP now that's good. That's 21 more HP than the Acura TSX with a 200 HP 4 banger. Does anybody know what type of gas the TSX uses ?

To Baggs32 I don't know which one to believe either, because like you said one says 200 then the other one says 220 HP with 200 TQ. Interesting, I'm just going to give Ford the benefit of the doubt and lean more towards the 221 HP numbers, until proven other wise.

venus537

the sonota looks more like a camry competitor with ride comfort taking higher priority. the mazda 6 would be a better comparison.

savetheland

According to press Sonata is larger than Fusion (they describe it as a big middle class, and Fusion is rather small mid class, or large compact). Sonata has soft ride similar to Camry and Accord. Basically it is mainstream family sedan for undemanding ordinary customers. If what they claim is true Sonata may kill both Camry and Accord over the time. No jokes, nobody took Camry seriously until it got larger – Accord and Taurus were kings.

Fusion and Mazda6 seems to be sporty and better handling cars. Because Fusion is based on Mazda6 is should be, so Sonata is hardly competitor here. These cars are more for enthusiasts than for ordinary customers who can get more plushy cars with Honda and Toyota. Mazda is more on Contours territory, both are compacts. Fusion is rather large compact, similar to Accord – Accord also is not exactly midsize car. But you can also consider Mazda3, if you do not like Focus plastic interior.

ANT14

Tacoboy,

As I mentioned on another Forum, the Volvo engines will stay for the Volvo/LR/Jaguar use. Only one "Volvo" engine will be used on a Lincoln product for the future.

The CD3 architecture (what the Fusion/Milan/Zephyr is built on) can't fit an I-6, without major modifications to do so.

Theman,

I believe the TSX uses premium.

venus537

"Sonata has soft ride similar to Camry and Accord. Basically it is mainstream family sedan for undemanding ordinary customers"

actually they are for demanding customers. they just value refinement over sportiness and frankly the mazda 6 is not as polished as those cars overall. neither is the sonata but it's a lot closer now. cars such as the impala, stratus and taurus are for the undemanding ordinary customer.

the accord is not as fun to drive as a maxda 6 but it's more engaging to drive than the camry. many people who drive camrys find the accord's ride too rough.

indications are that the fusion will be a great driver's car. however the fusion may have a more compliant ride that the mazda 6 in order to appeal to a wider base than the mazda 6.

the current passat is still probably the best overall driver's car in this segment.

"Accord also is not exactly midsize car"

the accord is every bit as roomy as the camry except for trunk volume. the sonata is said to be roomier than both.

savetheland

"indications are that the fusion will be a great driver's car. however the fusion may have a more compliant ride that the mazda 6 in order to appeal to a wider base than the mazda 6"

Compared to Mazda Ford is more mainstream. I believe that Fusion will not compete against Camry. Those who like boats like Camry will not be impressed by Fusion. And Fusion is also too small for this group.

In other words Ford does not have Camry fighter. But Fusion will deliver family values to younger generation than Camry. You can say that Milan can take care of older generation. But it is the same car. They can make it ride softer, but still size matters. May be 500/Montego are supposed take care of older buyers, but 500 supposed to compete against Avalon.

"the accord is every bit as roomy as the camry except for trunk volume. the sonata is said to be roomier than both"

Three people can hardly sit across the bench in Accord. Accord always was compact. In America they made it a bit longer increasing wheelbase. But it is still narrow. In 1992 new Camry sharply changed from compact to midsize, as well as Altima did in USA.

Consider this. Toyota line always was like (subcompact-compact-midsize class):
Corolla – Carina/Avensis(not sold in USA) - Camry
Mazda: 323 – 626 –929
Nissan: Almera/Sentra – Primera/Altima -Maxima
Honda: Civic – Accord – Legend (in USA was known as Acura).

Legend was competing with likes Toyota Camry, Nissan Maxima, Mitsu Sigma (Diamant in USA) and Accord against 626, Primera and Carina. Accord was slightly larger than all these cars, but still in the same class.

badgerfan

The cars you are listing are all within a few inches of each other dimensionally. Fusion is smack dab in the same size classification as Camry, Accord, Mazda6, Sonata, Altima, Malibu, Galant, etc.

You can argue all you want about which ones might appeal to the sporty driver, boulevard cruiser retiree, family haulers, etc. etc, but the bottom line is they are all in the same classification, in both exterior size dimensions and accomodations and it is fair to compare them all.

motownusa

I think Ford should have used bigger engines for both the 4 cylinder and V6. 160 and 220 Hp will not be class leading by 2006. Considering that Altima and Accord produces 240+ Hp and the next generation Camry will too I am a bit surprised why Ford decided to stick with a somewhat dated powerplant. :confuse:

iamsam

17,995 and 21,275, and made in the Mexico. No surprise, it all makes sense now.

frizz2112

Motownusa, while I agree that it would have been nice for Ford to have put a more competitive engine in the Fusion (and 500 for that matter), I don't think they had much of a choice; there just wasn't anything ready. The 3.5 V6 coming in a year or two should remedy this. The 6 speed tranny should make up for some difference with the competition as well.

I do worry that too often Ford is happy to use today's class leaders as benchmarks for tomorrow's cars. By the time the new cars come out, the industry has moved forward and they're lucky to be middle of the pack. Even the much awaited 3.5 Duratec seems to only get Ford on par with what much of the competition had a couple years ago; 250 (ish) horsepower isn't much to brag about in an engine of that size these days.

dieselone

Unfortunately, your exactly correct. Nissan's had its 3.5 since 2001 putting out 240-260hp depending on application and current versions pushing 300hp. Ford will be about 6 years behind by the time the new Duratec 35 comes out. I hope it's worth the wait.

navigator89

Not only that, even Hyundai has put 235hp in the new Sonata, and 265hp in the new Azera. Kia put 240hp in their new Sedona.

Ford, on the other hand has the Five Hundred with 203hp, the Fusion with 221hp, and the Freestar with 201hp. These vehicles are severely underpowered and lack the refinement of the class leaders.

Ford has a lot riding on the new Fusion/Milan/Zephyr. Looks like their engines will be criticized for a lack of power. Ford should have introduced these three and the Five Hundred/Montego with better engines rather than making consumers wait.

Is it any wonder that cars like the Avalon, Sienna, Camry, Accord and Odyssey are such class leaders?

It's 2005 Ford. Get with the program, or get out.

jeffyscott

I care more about how it will actually feel driving it than I do about peak HP numbers. Heard the same whining about the HP figure for the new Jetta we bought, but in actual driving by normal (or at least for us ) people the engine has plenty of power and also plenty of low end torque.

My undeerstanding is most of those cars with available 240 HP (or whatever) engines are actually sold with the base 4 cylinder engine.

motownusa

My undeerstanding is most of those cars with available 240 HP (or whatever) engines are actually sold with the base 4 cylinder engine.

That is very true. But having a class leading V6 gives you bragging rights and prestige. Remember, Ford is trying to gain market share at the expense of the competition and class leading powertrain and refinement along with good reliability and fuel efficiency will get the job done. I am sure Ford does not want to finish in the middle of the pack in any mid size sedan comparo tests. Auto rags generally prefer to test the V6 over the 4 banger.

ANT14

HP is one factor, the 6 speed automatic makes up for the "lack" the power...some people might perceive the engine lacks.

Also, regular octane fuel is another consideration at this time of increasing gas prices.

Thirdly, the marjority of models sold are I-4 designation. Let's keep in mind, if it wasnt' for the V6 Mustang, the Mustang GT wouldn't exsist...so on and so fourth. There's always going to be a vehicle that has more HP, or more torque, or more headroom, or truck capacity etc.

Another point, not sure about some of you, but the majority of V6 Accords, Camrys, etc I see out on the street for some odd reason seem to be slowing down the rest of traffic. I've only seen one V6 Altima actually make use of what it had, while working around traffic...passing by the V6 Accords, Camry's etc with people who drive it as if it were an I-4. It's not what the car comes with, it's how you use it I say.

Prices Released today....

http://media.ford.com/products/press_article_display.cfm?article_id=21050&vehicle_id=1231&make_id=92&CFID=5736751&CFTOKEN=2440fd96c848ea6-AB556472-F209-6BC8-21F7F09F28E4856B&jsessionid=b430734636ba$91X$9C$

jrct9454

Well, that's fine as far as it goes, but I think it is inexcuseable that the base prices for ALL levels of the car haven't been adjusted to include ABS and a complete airbag package.

All Accords, and most Camrys, and all Sonatas are so equipped or will be for the '06 model year.

It was extremely frustrating recently to go looking for a Focus for a friend, who wanted only 3 things as must-haves: automatic, ABS, and side bags. Yeah, well, good luck - most of the cars so equipped had a load of other options, and any base cars with automatic couldn't be found with a complete safety package. Said person is now going to wait for the new Civic, and will wind up paying more, probably, but was really put off by what was available at the 6 local dealers we checked on the website.

Even if the pricing for these options is modest, the AVAILABILITY of them is another matter. I hate government intervention on these kinds of issues, but with the latest crash tests indicating that side and head airbags make a huge difference in outcomes, I am starting to lean toward a rule requiring a complete airbag package on every car. I think ABS ought to be in the same category, but recognize that too many Americans don't know how to use it.

jeffyscott

Slowest cars are always Toyotas..V-6 or no and in general it does seem like the Japanese cars are generally the slowest ones on the road. I think the drivers of these cars are afraid to actually drive them, something might break and they would lose their "reliability" bragging rights .

One of the junker cars I am currently driving is a 1991 Sentra 1.6 L automatic, with probably under 100 HP...I still accelerate faster than most of the drivers on the road. Same was true when I was driving an 89 Voyager with a 99 HP 4 cylinder.

Thanks for the link to pricing, etc...

theman123

That's it, this car is going to be a hit for Ford. They are going to sell a ton of these cars. Nobody in the segment can see this car. It's the less expensive car in the whole segment. Along with probably being the best looking, with the biggest back seats,trunk and the most advanced tranny (6-speed Auto) and they are going to have an AWD and Hybrid version in a few years. Well done Ford, just nail the quality and have a smooth launch and you'll silence most of the haters.

I-4 Manual / V-6 Automatic
2006 Ford Fusion $17,995 / $21,275
2006 Hyundai Sonata $18,495 / $21,495
2005 Honda Accord $18,510 / $24,465
2005 Chevrolet Malibu $19,825 / $21,890
2005 Toyota Camry $19,735 / $23,070
2005 Nissan Altima $19,880 / $23,880

theman123

Hey Venus537 and robr2 you still think the Fusion is not going to sell
LMAO