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Comments
007
Ford has already started to change people's perception of Ford's quality over the years. Case and point look at our favorite small car the Focus. When it came out in the US in 2000 it was slammed with a ton of recalls. Since then, the overall quality and reliability of the car has skyrocketed. The Focus is now a really feasible alternative to import compact cars such as the Civic, Corolla and Sentra from a quality and reliability point of view. Also, have you seen the overall quality rating of the F-150, 05 Mustang and the Chicago trio (500/Montego/Freestyle). It's being reported that the 05 Mustang is being produced with a 5 out of 100 defect ratio. That's better than a Lexus. I guess that's why it's one of the hottest cars on the road and Ford had to kick in overtime for the rest of the year to deal with demand.
I agree with you that the Fusion will have to be executed right from launch. Ford cannot afford to have this car slammed with a ton of recalls and have the supply well below the demand.
Also, I really think that your really giving the Camcord just a little to much credit. Granted they are good cars, however nobody buys them because they really want them. The Camcord are basically appliances. Nobody buys them for Style or Fun-to-drive. In which the Fusion is going to have an advatange over the Camcord. People buy the Camcord for 2 main reason none of them really good.
1. They are dirt cheap
2. People have the perception that the cars will run forever. All they have to do is put gas in it and go. Minus a couple of trips to the dealer to deal with the brakes that would require regular maintainance.
If the Fusion has a smooth launch and not slammed with quality problems, the people who buy them first would have a positive opinion of the quality of the cars and the rest would start to follow. Look at it like this, you have people paying $800 to $2,000 over MSRP for a $25,000 2-door sports coupe in the Mustang. There is no way in the Hell people would be doing that if they thought Ford built junk.
Also, the Fusion is design to compete directly with the Camcord. Judging buy what I've read on the internet the initial response to the car has been outstanding. Almost all the forum that I've gone to people repeatidily have picked the Fusion/Milan over the Honda Accord, Toyota Camry, the New VW 2.5 Jetta and the Dodge Charger. In terms of value and style and the perceived driving dynamics. You can be die-hard I love Imports all you want. The fact is when the Fusion/Milan come out Honda and Toyota are going to feel it BIG TIME. In terms of sales of the Camcord and people's perception of Ford.
Last but not least, this is really silly but it shows you how highly anticipated the Fusion/Milan are to people. Funk Master Flex visited and picked up his Black F-150 in Michigan. He was quoted as to saying that the Fusion is going to be one of the hottest cars on the road and he can't wait to get one to trick out. When was the last time you ever heard urban youth say anything good about a Domestic anything !?!???!? if all goes well which I hope so for Ford's sake. I'm sorry to say, Camcord Domination is OVER !!!!!!!!!!
Funk Master Flex
:shades:
The Focus is now a really feasible alternative to import compact cars such as the Civic, Corolla and Sentra from a quality and reliability point of view
Unfortunately they still need to resort to rebates, financing incentives, extended warranties and free Dells to get them of the dealer lots. They may sell lots of them but they don't make any money on them.
Look at it like this, you have people paying $800 to $2,000 over MSRP for a $25,000 2-door sports coupe in the Mustang. There is no way in the Hell people would be doing that if they thought Ford built junk.
You really can't assume the success of the Mustang will automatically transcend to the Fusion/Milan. The Mustang is an American icon - people have put up with pitiful Mustangs for years just because it was a Mustang. The new model has been highly anticipated and that's what is driving demand.
Funk Master Flex visited and picked up his Black F-150 in Michigan. He was quoted as to saying that the Fusion is going to be one of the hottest cars on the road and he can't wait to get one to trick out. When was the last time you ever heard urban youth say anything good about a Domestic anything !?!???!?
Take that with a grain of salt - He's being paid by Ford to add his touch to those vehicles and showcase them on his TV show. Per your link: "Flex, as he is called, recently forged a relationship with Ford Motor Company." He has to be excited.
People are willing to pay for a premium product and this is something I've been stating for years. There's a larger take rate on the higher trim models of the F-150, over previous generations. An overwhelming take rate on the AWD and higher trim versions of the 500/Montego. The Mustang has also received a higher take rate on the higher trims, and option packages/interior fittings, packages as well.
This explains why the Fusion/Milan, will debut in higher trim versions the first few months
I too am in shock over the positive responses I've seem in various online postings pertaining to the vehicle...notes are being taken.
Oh I know that people most certainly, people are not going to pay a PENNY over sticker for a Fusion/Milan. The whole point of the Mustang was not about it being an Icon, but of people's perception of quality. Would you pay a penny over sticker for anything if you thought that it was junk ? NO !!!
Your right about the Focus not selling without rebates. it will never sell without rebates until it take a total quality award of some kind in it's recent future. However, the quality of the car has improved dramatically over the years. I think the real reasons why Ford has to offer the Focus with Rebates and Computers is.
1. they killed the SVT Focus for no real reason, a car allot of people really liked.
2. the 05 so-called redesign is modeled after the bland Ford 500.
3. The ST so-called High performance version is a joke among all the other cars in the class.
All that said, it's a good car. and I don't think it's struggling because of it's perceived quality issues.
I know that whole thing with Funk master Flex was silly. Let's face the facts, domestics have gotten absolutely no love at all from youth culture at all over the years. So anything good said from someone like that I hope has an effect amount that demographic. But he is an icon amount the urban culture. The man did say something good about a domestic car paid or other wise. I hope that it's going to be well received and wanted by all cultures and all people.
Also, I think that once Ford comes out with the 3.5 liter V6 engine they are building in Ohio. It will most certainly take some sales away from the CamCord. why not, it's a direct domestic competitor. Why wouldn't it take some sales away from them ???
:confuse:
That shows that Ford needs to offer something MORE than just a good car which is fun to drive. Chevy Malibu is now one of the better family sedans and they're selling quite a bit of them, but Toyota and Honda still doesn't have sleepless nights about it. More and more Camcords are being sold daily. Will Fusion match the interior quality of the Camcords? Will it be extremely reliable? The Mazda6, upon which it is based, also have a lower-than-average rating in CR, so that excuse that the parts are now being tested seems funny to me.
Oh, Ford (and GM) come on! Bring back the American image. Show for the world what you can.
IMO, in order to make the Fusion more competitive, it should offer some features OVER the competition. Things that others doesn't offer. And that's besides offering a good powertrain, quality interior, and excellent driving dynamics. These features, or any small gadget, could draw a lot of new customers.
I have to completely disagree with you here. Nobody is buying a Mustang due to improved perceived quality. They are buying them because they are Mustangs - plain and simple.
I know that whole thing with Funk master Flex was silly. Let's face the facts, domestics have gotten absolutely no love at all from youth culture at all over the years. So anything good said from someone like that I hope has an effect amount that demographic. But he is an icon amount the urban culture. The man did say something good about a domestic car paid or other wise. I hope that it's going to be well received and wanted by all cultures and all people.
Again - plain and simple, he's being paid to promote Fords. That's not any different than Dale Earnhart Jr saying how great Chevy, Bud, Goodyear, Gatorade is. As for youth, urban culture not liking domestics - I understand that Denalis and Escalades are pretty popular among the yo yo yo, baggy pants set. Besides, that is all about image - it has nothing to do with performance, quality, et al.
And I also think that several thousand prospective customers had already driven prototypes, get excited and spread word.
~alpha
Again - plain and simple, he's being paid to promote Fords. That's not any different than Dale Earnhart Jr saying how great Chevy, Bud, Goodyear, Gatorade is. As for youth, urban culture not liking domestics - I understand that Denalis and Escalades are pretty popular among the yo yo yo, baggy pants set. Besides, that is all about image - it has nothing to do with performance, quality, et al.
I don't understand. Why is the Funk Master Flew deal silly? Is the Harley Davidson F-150 silly as well? I, for one, am very interested in what Funk Master Flex does with the Fusion. If you look at the cars Flex usually customizes (i.e. Bentleys, Roll Royces, celebrity vehicles), than the Fusion is the first one I can afford. I don't know about the baggy pants commentary. Do you really think the urban community is full of nothing else but Denelis and Escalades? The urban community likes to modify their cars, the way they see fit, and that is a good thing. For Flex to show that a Fusion could be modified to meet that taste, more power to him. Honda hasn't done that with the Accord, Toyota hasn't done that with the Camry. Good for Ford to think outside the box, to try to show the Fusion across many different demographics. Maybe there is an image thing to the whole customization, but who said that that was a bad idea? I didn't know there was some mass of wealth to buy these Escalades in large quantity in the urban community. The lay person is looking at a mid-size vehicle, just like everybody else. In the mid-size car segment, quality and performance matter, no matter who you are.
Actually, Accord sales are off by about 5% this year, and were off by 5% last year from the previous, I believe.....
~alpha
Hold on buddy, Breathe !!!!! I completely agree with you about Funk Master Flex, I never said it was a bad thing. All I was saying about it being silly is to show how highly anticipated the car was. To allot of people (I'm not one of them) that doesn't mean a darn thing, That Funk Master Flex wants to trick out a Fusion (hence forth silly) that's all.
Didn't you notice how people responded to that thread that I left
The fact the we are having this must discussion about the Fusion/Milan to me shows that Ford has made something that's worth talking about. If they nail it right, I think this thing could potentially be a big home run for Ford/Mercury. Honda and Toyota and import lovers can quality us to death all they want. It really wouldn't matter because allot of people would still want it for reasons other than just QUALITY alone.
Ford Fusion Video
:shades:
LMAO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ROFL !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yeah that's sad but true, savetheland. I never said they were going to die. Your right the drop dead realiable toaster on wheels has a very strong appeal to people for some strange reason. The thing is there are some people that are so smug and arrogant they are acting like the Fusion/Milan are going to come out and nobody is even going to care. Or worst yet it won't have any affect on the market at all, which is absolutely ridiculous. How in the world can you sell over 150,000 cars in a segment and it not have a single impact in that market.
Keep in mind that Ford is introducing 2 vehicles to fill the slot the Taurus left behind and to compete against other mid-sizes. Ford had better be able to maintain the Taurus' market share.
As for street cred - I brought up the Denali and Escalade to show that most of those shows concentrate on high end automobiles and that's what urban youth aspire to. I don't see the Fusion as an aspiration vehicle.
In that regard, I don't think it gives them much credibility, other than the "I want to get attention" factor, rather than the "I'm smart, and know how to handle money"
factor.
But hey, if this gets the vehicle some positive attention, by all means....
So I think younger person will chose Fusion ahead or any Toyota. Well you can say there are Scions. Buy Scion does not match Ford in driving dynamics. Yes it is baby Lexus, but younger generation does not need Lexus, even baby version.
IMHO Fusion will compete more against Accord than Camry. And Fusion looks cool unlike boring aging-boomer-icon and yuppie-cult-car Accord.
http://www.forbes.com/home/free_forbes/2005/0523/048.html
theman123, I'm breathing and much calmer now, just didn't understand what you said completely. Now that I see what you meant, I am with you. robr2, I understand where you are coming from as well though I still disagree since, though I aspire to have a 3 Seris someday, and then a Range Rover soem time after that, my current aspirations are for things I can afford and possibly customize to look very good. I'd love a red Fusion, biege interior, with the wood trim. I'd add 18 inch alloy wheels (not Ford's) and put in beige leather seats with brown piping (you can see how it looks at katskin.com). Or a red Fusion, black interior with the wood trim. I'd then get the BMW brown leather seats and door inserts from katskin, 35% tinted windows, and 18 inch chrome. I'd change the speakers and may add a 10 inch sub, but that is about it for audio.
I won't be putting those on my credit card either. Me and many of my friend degrees don't neccessitate the need for that. Don't mistake some, for all. :P
I never said I opposed customizing - it's your money spend it how you wish. I just disagreed with the idea that giving a Fusion to Flex to pimp out gives it street cred.
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/7856251/site/newsweek/
For other cars in the Ford lineup, I just don't know. I bet someone does!
.
Other vehicles will feature those keys, as they become revamped/updated.
as for their so called bland looks, this has more to do with so many of them being on the road than anything else. newsflash! there's nothing exciting about the looks of the fusion in comparison.
what did someone write? people buy these cars because they're dirt cheap. that's hilarious and a new one on me since they usually sell for thousands more than their domestic counterparts.
why is that? well, it's more than their reputation for reliability. like great engineering and quality for the price, refined and powerful poweplants, and very solid overall driving dynamics. the accord doesn't consistently win comparison tests from enthusiast magazines because of its reliability.
people buy these cars on their merits and not on price and the "deal" like so many
domestic cars have been. they're also not dump in large numbers to fleet sales either. while the camcords are using incentives to move inventory they're still much less than what the domestic manufacturers need for bribery. it's the tauruses and malibus of the world that should be regarded as appliances.
all signs point to the fusion becoming a solid entry in this segment. but to think doom and gloom for the camcords is just wishful thinking. you're not going to wipe out the memory of the taurus that easily. now there's a car that hardly anybody purchased because it was desirable.
I also agree (to some extent) with the comment that someone posted about people buying domestics because of the "deal." Living in the Metro Detroit area, I see lots of new domestic cars on the road. I believe that is partly because people can get them at a discount here. Most people here in the city knows at least one person who works at one of the Big Three. I could get the employee discount from all three because I know people at all three. And even if people in Detroit don't know someone who works for the Big Three, it probably wouldn't be that hard to find one. Plus, every week in the paper, there are car dealers advertising that they will give you employee pricing even if you don't have an employee sponsor. So if you take the employee discount and then add the massive rebates that the domestic automakes are offering, their cars are a steal. This is just my opinion from the Detroit area. There are probably other viewpoint in other parts of the country.
Other than that, I think its iight.
Its not better looking than the Mazda6 or my Altima..but it looks about as good as the Camry and Accord.
FWIW, the MY06 Mazda6 will lose some HP and gain some torque making it even closer to the Fusion. I wouldn't be surprised to see the final power numbers for both the Fusion and the 6 to be dead even come time to sell them. Both will have the same 6-speed ATX as well.
Now whether you find those distinctive looks appealing or not is another story. I do. And I'm quite excited that Ford saw fit to make this car available with a manual shift option right out of the chute. This leads me to suspect the car will appeal to people who enjoy the act of driving - and that makes sense. It eats dinner at the same table as the Mazda 6.
As far as the current Taurus being undesirable... who cares? I don't need time to "wipe out" the memory of the Taurus before moving over to a Ford product that just happens to be completely unrelated to it. That strikes me as a very unusual method of reasoning.
Labeling Taurus an "appliance", "rental car special" etc. is just a lazy way to dismiss a very good car, as I know how it really performs and could care less about those shallow people who have to label cars they really haven't taken the time to evaluate, with their "imports can do no wrong" blinders welded to their head.
Looking forward to the Fusion, however it will probably be in its second generation before I will own one, as my appliance Taurus is doing just fine.
The Taurus is a great car, that's for sure.
It isn't like Accords and Camry's at resale, but it isn't that bad anymore and it's good when you compare it to Ford sedans.
Just go to Hertzcarsales.com and look at the prices of resale Sonatas versus resale Tauruses.
There is no way the Fusion resale is going to be anywhere near that of an Accord and may continue to be worse than a Sonata also.
There is no reason for the the new Sonata resale to get worse than the current ones and may be better as people learn about the quality and reliability improvements and slowly start to realize Hyundais are not like they were 10 years ago.
The new Ford 500 has proved that it's resale can be that equally, or near to that of the Accord/Camry...It retains 48-49% of it's value, after 3 years according to Intellichoice. That's comparable to the Camcords.
So why not for the Fusion ? Ford Too isn't Ford of 10 years ago either...
The only thing that is proven is past resale of Ford sedans.
The demand for the Fusion will be higher than that of the Sonata just based on who and what it is. You may disagree, but it is about the same as saying the demand for the New Escape will be more than the New Santa Fe. The Fusion fleet sales, Ford already announced it was limiting. Incentives will be low, like the 500. THey are following the same model for both cars.
Again the problem with Hyundai Sonata is the resale value and the interior. The Ford will be better in both. the demand for a used Hyundai just has never been very high.
The Sonata has greatly inproved in both JD Power initial quality and reliabily reported in owner surveys reported to Consumer Reports and that is part of the reason Hertz can get more money for a used Sonata than a used Taurus.
The resale of the the Fusion should not be as wretched as a used Taurus, but since it is so incredibily new, it is reckless to predict it will be anywhere near the Accord either.
Despite Fords claims of not planning to have major rebates, they will have to come to that if they don't keep a sales pace they want, plus the Taurus is being discountinued soon so Ford will need to put other models into heavy fleet sales (Fusion/500) since they don't have anything else to fill that slot.
****AT THE MOMENT***** there are not a lot of 500s in fleet sales (since the Taurus now fills that niche), but that may change and same resale fate may come of the Fusion since the 500 is very pricey compared to the outgoing Taurus.
As mentioned, it's based on the future production, rebates, discounts, cost of maintenence, ownership costs, etc. If we were taking manufacturer's "past" into account, the Hyundai deffinately doesn't have a favorable one.
Again, this isn't Ford of 10 years ago, nor is this Hyundai of 10 years ago, we need to let go of that sort of thinking. The "Oh my mother owned a Taurus in the 80's and it was trash, so I won't buy another one now" mentaility doesn't hold water when a specific vehicle has evolved so much, that maybe the screws might be the only thing carried over since it's debut (figuratively speaking).
Hertz is owned by Ford... The reason the resale of the Taurus' are lower than that of the Sonata is the following...
Hertz will buy the Taurus from Ford at a rock bottom, at cost price. Hertz will also buy the Sonata at a "fleet price", which is naturally inflated because it's coming from another source. Hertz will want to make up as much as possible from the Sonata, since it had to benefit another manufacturer, to buy it at a decent price.
Hertz won't care if the Taurus sells at a lower price, since they already know they got it at rock bottom price from Ford.
Hertz is also using other vehicles, instead of all Ford vehicles mainly because it wishes to boost resale value of it's Ford vehicles. BUT if you look at it another way, you can increase your vehicles resale value, by buying the competition and dropping their resale value. Notice how many Toyota's are being used in Hertz
If Hertz could get more money for a used Taurus than a used Sonata, they would. They want to maximize their profit of all cars and if people would pay more for used Ford Tauruses, they would sell them for more.
The latest used Fords are not rated as highly in owner-reported reliability and initial quality as the latest used Hyundais, but that is not the reason the resale is so much worse.
The primary reason is because there is a massive oversupply of used Ford Tauruses on the used car market due to fleet sales.
The Taurus is about to go away, so Ford will need to turn to the 500 and Fusion and this means a similar resale fate looms on the Fusion. Current resale estimates of the Fusion are outrageously overoptimistic and were projected when Ford had claimed the Taurus was going to be around until around 2008.
Now Ford will have to sell larger numbers of Fusions to rental car companies and other fleets earlier than they originally planned.
They cannot afford to give up fleet sales revenue and simply hand it over to GM, so, with the Taurus gone, they will have to sell Fusions to Hertz's new owner plus continue selling to Budget, Enterprise, government agencies etc. etc..
Granted, there will be some, specially since it allowed people to rent a specific vehicle and test it out before buying, that's not it's main purpose.
The reason the Taurus was pushed heavily into rental car lots is because a certain number of vehicles needed to be pumped out of the ATL and Chicago plants, to keep the factories operating, if not...then UAW would cause an issue. And that's not necessarily a bad thing since the engineering costs of the Taurus have been paid off and amoritized many years ago.
How does this not affect the Fusion/500? The factories are flexible. If the 500 isn't selling well one week, a flick of the switch allows it to switch to the model that is, like the Montego or Freestyle.
Same issue with the Fusion/Zephyr/Milan. Flexible manufacturing allows "waste" to be sucked up by building the model in demand at the time.
Then the other point is excess vehicle inventories. The 400K+ units per model days are numbered. Setting up goals of 200K guarantees that it's resale value is high, considering no more can be produced if necessary. Granted, you can boost up possible 30-40K extra units if demand is that high, provided it's not biting into the other models that will pose a higher margin (Zephyr/Milan, in this case).
Plus, having the vehicle built in Mexico eases off another burden, specially the UAW. What ever number of vehicles need to be produced, you can easily stick with. At a UAW factory, you up production, and you must add shifts and overtime which is costly... If you don't build enough and idle the lines, then the UAW still receive 92% of their wages anyways. So this allows Ford to lesson the effort of trying to push and saturate the market with vehicles, just to keep the UAW working.
So in this case....
"They cannot afford to give up fleet sales revenue and simply hand it over to GM"
Yes they can actually, and still remain profitable since rental fleet sales don't really post much of a profit for a specific vehicle, all it does is allow for less down time at a factory, and not have to pay out wages for vehicles not needed, therefore, pleasing the UAW.
Granted, there will be some, specially since it allowed people to rent a specific vehicle and test it out before buying, that's not it's main purpose.
The reason the Taurus was pushed heavily into rental car lots is because a certain number of vehicles needed to be pumped out of the ATL and Chicago plants, to keep the factories operating, if not...then UAW would cause an issue. And that's not necessarily a bad thing since the engineering costs of the Taurus have been paid off and amoritized many years ago.
How does this not affect the Fusion/500? The factories are flexible. If the 500 isn't selling well one week, a flick of the switch allows it to switch to the model that is, like the Montego or Freestyle.
Same issue with the Fusion/Zephyr/Milan. Flexible manufacturing allows "waste" to be sucked up by building the model in demand at the time.
Then the other point is excess vehicle inventories. The 400K+ units per model days are numbered. Setting up goals of 200K guarantees that it's resale value is high, considering no more can be produced if necessary. Granted, you can boost up possible 30-40K extra units if demand is that high, provided it's not biting into the other models that will pose a higher margin (Zephyr/Milan, in this case).
Plus, having the vehicle built in Mexico eases off another burden, specially the UAW. What ever number of vehicles need to be produced, you can easily stick with. At a UAW factory, you up production, and you must add shifts and overtime which is costly... If you don't build enough and idle the lines, then the UAW still receive 92% of their wages anyways. So this allows Ford to lesson the effort of trying to push and saturate the market with vehicles, just to keep the UAW working.
So in this case....
"They cannot afford to give up fleet sales revenue and simply hand it over to GM"
Yes they can actually, and still remain profitable since rental fleet sales don't really post much of a profit for a specific vehicle, all it does is allow for less down time at a factory, and not have to pay out wages for vehicles not needed, therefore, pleasing the UAW.
:surprise:
Man you can tell somebody did there homework. ANT_14 is 100% right. And I %100 agree with you on this one.
The whole point behind this Flexible manufacturing that Ford is using is specifically designed to meet consumer demand and not have to "SHOVE" a bunch of cars into a market were people don't want them. Henceforth, almost completely eliminating the need to have a massive wholesale to fleet vehicles businesses like Hertz or anybody. With the flip of a switch and due to the fact that one plant is building several vehicles (case and point the Chicago trio 500/Montego/Freestyle) it's all but almost guarantees that there will be a good demand for at least one if not all of the vehicles. So all they have to do is re-configure the plant to meet the demand of the time and waste is all but eliminated from the picture. By them doing this, it's almost safe to say that ancient term called "Job Security" for the workers of the plant. Because, the same group of workers build different vehicles in the same plant.
Also, I really don't see the Fusion being a rental car king. I don't think Ford could care less if they handed rental car king title over to GM. I always thought it was better for a car company to sell car at retail to the consumer that to a wholesale fleet company they already own anyway. I'm sure there will be some cars going to rental fleets like the 05 mustang is being rented by hertz. However, like I said I don't see the Mustang and Fusion/500/Milan really having a massive presence in the rental car fleet. All in all there will be some cars but not a very high number going to fleet sales.
As a result since the cars F/M (Fusion/Milan I'm just tired of typing the names over and over) are going to have very low fleet sales and there's seemingly going to be a good demand for them. I would image that the resale value should be pretty good. Furthermore, like Ford himself and ANT_14 said the day of 400+ car sale of a single vehicle in one segment are all but gone. If car companies want to sell that many car in the US in one segment they are almost going to have to divide the sales of that segment amongst several cars in order to hit those kinds of numbers. Like what Ford is doing 500/Montego and Fusion/Milan combined all those cars should amount to almost 200-300+ cars in the Mid-sized segment. By them using this method of manufacturing it would dramatically increase the companies operating efficiency and output, but most importantly it would increase the value of there cars and of the company as a whole since there isn't hardly any cars being "SHOVED" down the consumers throat in order to keep plants open and everybody happy.
Ford Fusion
Mercury Milan
Lincoln Zephyr
:shades:
Sorry to hear you're driving the Altima instead. :P