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And compared to cloth, leather is going to feel colder in the winter and sticky and/or hotter in summer. That is simply a fact. That is why heated seats and now cooled seats are out there.
The leather discussion started with an owner of it saying "First off, hot, hot, hot in the summer months...".
I guess some believe it is better to look good than to feel good
And compared to cloth, leather is going to feel colder in the winter and sticky and/or hotter in summer. That is simply a fact.
As I said before, this may be true for the first 5 minutes but after that leather will adjust to your body temp and it will be very comfortable. Customers have been buying leather seats long before heated and cooled seats were available. If leather seats were really too hot in the summer and too cold in the winter then very few people would buy them.
I've driven vehicles with leather seats for the last 12 years with temps as high as 98 and as low as 15 and my leather seats are very comfortable.
The 'cloth versus leather' argument is much like the 'manual versus automatic' arguments that you read on various Edmunds Forums. What it really boils down to is personal preference. Same for dark exterior/interior color versus light. One man's treasure is another man's junk.
Ron M.
That's also the reason why they have something called "options" on cars when you buy them new.
For the record, the Fusion/Milan leather is NICE. We're definitely choosing that if my wife buys a Milan this year.
I'd like to see it available in a performance version. The 3.0L has plenty of power for everyday driving.
Here's my question -
I have a 2006 Mercury Milan I-4 Premier with the standard CD/MP3 Radio.
A friend of mine has an "Audiophile" stereo Ford part number: 6H6Z-18806-AA which was
taken out of an 06' Lincoln Zephyr to make room for an aftermarket Nav System.
I'm sure it will fit with no problem but will it work?
The dealer said that I'll need another amp and more speakers and that the plugs don't match.
My buddy says he's doesn't know what he's talking about -
What would be involved in getting this thing to work??
Thanks !!
It is a decent car but AGAIN it is not an Accord or Camry. The fit and finish are good, seats are comfortable, brakes are fine, The dash lay out and texture are good. The textured dash is copied after VW Jetta which has been the bench mark for a while. The trunk space has to be one of the best in class.
My only issue and turn off with the car is the engine grawl. The 4 cylinder gets very loud/rough any time you take off or accelerate on the highway. You feel like you are driving a much smaller car. Why can't any US manufacture make a quiet and decent 4 cylinder engine? The engine sounds just like the 2.4L engine that was in my 95 Dodge Stratus.
I will consider buying one of these 4-5 years down the road as a used car when they are about $5-6K.
Joe
This engine "noise" is pure perception. In the comparo sedan forum someone posted interior noise levels of the Accord/Camry/Sonata/Fusion. You would be surprised to know the Fusion/Milan are actually very quiet even at high revs when compared to the Accord/Camry. These are actual measured noise ratings. Cannot dispute these..
2018 430i Gran Coupe
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/~jw/dB.html
Where you can also read that a doubling of the power does not make a huge difference to the loudness.
The last Altima I drove at my dealership had just as much noise WOT.
Incidently, I think peeps under 30 who are use to the juiced 4 cylincer rice rockets of the nineties and today probably don't even notice.
Mark.
If so, I'd gladly take that trade-off.
Timeing chains last the life of the engine.
Mark.
You are right. People perceive more engine noise. It's sometimes referred to as "hearing."
Fusion, 129,800 Milan; 8844, Zephyr 29,000. MKZ is not listed.
Joe
I don't think timing chain vs. timing belt is the source of this noise. The 2.4L in Camry uses timing chain, and is quiet.
The car overall is pleasant. Ford has done a nice job. Hopefully it won't have teething problems Ford had with Focus and Escape. For about $2K more, I will probably go for an Accord LX. You recover the $2K when selling the Accord.
Honda Accord is made in Ohio. Fusion is built in Mexico.
Joe
Numbers for Milan are not correct because they sell roughly the same amount of Milans as Zephyrs and it is about 25% of Fusion sells..
Note that both of them are made by non-union workers and both are ranked higher than average in reliability and overall quality. I fed-up with unions and would gladly spend my money on something not made by UAW members.
Fusion is very reliable and is now over a year old with no recalls. The 3.0 Duatec is a proven engine with over 10 years of development.
Since when did Honda become an American company? Ok, the Fusion is ASSEMBLED in Mexico? So how is that so different from the Honda being ASSEMBLED in the U.S.?? You will pay more for a Honda, you better get more at re-sale. What about interest also?
Things I wish Ford would add.
1. locking gas
2. back-up sensors
3. stability control
This is a great car with lots of value.
Were Articulation Index figures posted as well? Plain dB figures tell nothing about the noise spectrum, which matters because the ear response is not linear to all sound frequencies.
Therefore, in different cars with the same dB noise level one can still be noisier than the other.
My 2003 Explorer XLT sport with $36K list price has power driver seat. The power is only for the bottom part, the back adjustment is manual!!! Why do they do a half job by giving you partial power seat?!! Both Camry and Accord have unique feel, touch, and look that I don't see in Ford/GM/Chrysler cars. When you sit in a Toyota or Honda, you do not feel that they are trying to cheat you out of quality and content. Domestic manufacturers are always chasing lowest cost suppliers and they CHANGE suppliers for the cost reason every 2-3 years. Japanese have long term relationship with their suppliers.
As far as Honda made in the USA and Fusion made in Mexico, I don't know.......I much rather see the jobs go to our fellow Americans than to cheap labor Mexicans.
Another point....if you wreck and total your Fusion within 1-2 years, you will be upside down with your car loan. That is never ever a case with Toyotas and Hondas.
Joe
"As far as Honda made in the USA and Fusion made in Mexico, I don't know.......I much rather see the jobs go to our fellow Americans than to cheap labor Mexicans."
Quick note. I agree 100% except when American unions and workers are being willfully unfair. These people want to get paid even while not working and went bananas because they wanted to pay absolutely no copay for their healthcare whatsoever.
Honda/Toyota ASSEMBLE cars here in the U.S. The Fusion was engineered her in the U.S. profits come back to a U.S. company. Kind of like Honda/Toyota.. Profits go back to Japan..
I am not a union supporter. I believe much of Ford/GM problems come from these stupid contracts they sign with the unions. To pay someone not to work!@? in this day and age is plain dumb. The UAW will fall in the next 10-20 years, its inevitable. Unions don't flex and in todays world economy, you need to flex or you break.. :shades:
Never-ever? Thats a strong statement there... ALL CARS lose value as soon as they leave the dealership.
Have a friend who just bought a 07 Camry, for about $28K by the time everything was said and done. She put just $2K in downpayment. 3 months after, car was stolen. The depreciated value was $23K, that's how much she would have gotten back, yet she still had $25,200 she owed. (Upside down) Luckily I advised her to get GAP coverage on her insurance since those are highly stolen vehicles. So GAP help paid it all, not sure depreciation luck.
PLUS, the Fusion has the same rate as depreciation as that of a Camry/Accord. Scroll back about 100 pages, and the link by the Auto Insurance Industry. I know, it's shocking, many won't believe it, but it's a simple fact and it has been discussed in this forum way back when.
Regarding Fusion resale value – your probably never made research – all you say are standard bashing of American cars. Try to find out how much used Fusion or Milan costs and you will be surprised to learn that it makes more financial sense to buy a new one.
Even my Sable which depreciates much faster than Camry or Accord, still cost me much less than similarly equipped Camry and Accord, so most likely I will not be upside down as you predicted.
But even so, I don't think any Japanese automaker can match the relationship GM has with Delphi or Ford has with Visteon.
I could point out 10 different ways Toyota cheapened up the current Corolla, including things that were deleted during the product cycle.
As for the Fusion your comment about lighting on the buttons may apply to a 03 Explorer but the Fusion and the Current Explorer have this lighting.
As for the Power seat, current Eddie Bauer Explorers which is the equivalent trim to your 03 XLT SPORT now have the Power recline feature.
Personally, I never saw the need for power recline. Its slow to make large changes and if you want to fine tune, just use the power bottom to raise the front of the seat, this will recline you more.
Your depreciation comment is wrong also, the Fusion has the same lease residuals as the Accord and the Camry plus cost $$$$ less. Incidentally, the new Ford Edge was assigned the Highest residual of any vehicle in its class.
Residuals are set by an independent company.
Mark.
The other day, Hertz was running out of cars and I had a choice between a Fusion and a bunch of Taurus 'the boats'. It was a no brainer.
The good things first. This was a V6 with 5k miles on it. For one I was really inpressed with the handling. Also, the interior in general was nicely done. The car looks quite decent too. Also, ergos seemes to be pretty good and it didnt take too long for me to get comfortable inside the car.
However, there are more than a few bad things.
- The engine definitely felt underpowered. Compared to the other cars competing with this car, the engine seemed weak and thrashy.
- I just got 22mpg on an all highway trip, which is defintely much better than a Sonata (~17-18) but below the Camry (~27).
- The entire center console and control stalks setup was flicked from the Taurus. WHY??? Doesnt Ford get it? The should be flicking from the Mazda 6, not from the Taurus!!
- The passenged seat was creaking at 5k miles!
- Oh and I almost forgot, THE DAMN THING HAD NO ABS! Isnt that like a standard thing on cars of this class at least? On the NJ Turnpike I has to slam on the brakes suddenly and the wheels locked up and the car did a sideways twitch thingy. Terrible!
Overall, I think this is a giant leap forward from the Taurus. It is definitely a respectable product.
However, if this is the new way forward, I doubt if it will do much. These are the kinds of cars Ford needed 6 years bacc, before it started its slide downwards. This car is an able contender in its segment but not a class leader. I think this will definitely stem the tide and prevent Ford from sinking deeper, but not necessarily bring it up.
Its a nice step forward, but a lot more needs to be done. You need to drive the Fusion and then step into the new Camry to realize the difference. They are like cars from entirely different generations! Come on Ford, you need to do better.
I doubt that I personally will like the Camry, however, since it costs about $2700 more, the Camry ought to be a lot better than the Fusion
Regarding ABS I think it is an option, rental got it cheap. It is marketing move to make it cheaper than Sonata. But why Sonata is a target - I do not get it. What next - is Ford going to target Chinese vehicles next when Sonata becomes unreachable like Camry or Accord?
Not so long ago in 1986 they targeted Accord with original Taurus, then in 1996 - new rising superstar – Camry – with redesigned Taurus. Now probably they do not dare to challenge Camry or Accord, but wait - there is a new superstar - Sonata (even though I am not convinced that Sonata deserves any attention). So what is next - when Sonata becomes unreachable – make a car cheaper than Chery?
Actually I did - Fusion drives better. Seats are better - Camry's interior and seats are designed for AARP members - seats are flat (even worse than in my Sable) and interior plastic is cheesy and vulgar, steering is numb. I would prefer Milan's interior if they replaced center stack with something like in Mazda3, moved radio and ACC up.
You like the look of the Sonata interior? ick IMHO.
Look at the new Escape to see the way things are headed for Ford center stacks.
I think the top of stack display is a good idea because you don't have to look so far down from the road. However I always felt that the TOS display on the Nissan's other than the Murano seemed kind of cheap.
I definately think Mazda does kick [non-permissible content removed] interiors.
Mark.
Fusion is $2700 less than Accord? Add Accord's std features to Fusion and then check the price difference.
Had a 84 Accord after driving it for 9 months to buy a 85 VW Jetta, I got what I paid for it. Bought a new 94 Accord LX manual for $15,500 (the list was $17,400), sold it for $14,500 after 2 years and 30K miles.
I bought the 03 Explorer because I did not care for Toyota 4Runner look, narrow width, and lack of room. As you can tell, I drive them all and don't care whether it is Japanase or American. The headlight switch in my Explorer is one of the cheapest feel light switch anywhere.
As far as GM relationship with Delphi....Give me a break. GM and Ford are tied forever to Delphi and Visteon. They are all part of a UAW contract. GM/Ford are not able to break ties. Delphi was coming out of chapter 11..The headline was that Delphi was trying to unload GM's unprofitable business. I think some 80% of Dephi business is GM.
What impresses me about Japanese is their consistancy and commitment. They keep perfecting what they start. They may not get it at the begining, but they keep trying. Do you remember the original Toyota van that was rushed to uS to compete with DCX mini vans? That was a joke! Or the original Honda Oddessey based on Accord chassis with a 4 cylinder engine... Look at Honda Oddessy today.. They have built 196K so far this year.
On that upside down 2007 Toyota Camry, I would have damanded that the insurance adjuster finds and buys me a used 2007 Camry for $23,500. If he can't, then I will want what owe on the car.
Again, I like Fusion, Down the road, I will consider buying a 4-5 year old one. American cars, are best 2-3 year old used car buys. Honda/Toyota (and not Mazda, Nissan, Mitsibishi,....) are good buys, new.
Once car manufacturers sell fleet cars, that always deppriciates that car brand faster. A 2006 Taurus for $10,999? How many 2006 Accords/Camrys at that price?
Some one said 2007 Camry seat is made for AARP members. He is probably right. But when you look at Camry XLE V-6 with its 265HP 3.5L engine from behind and front, it is also apealing to 35-45 year olds. Toyota has aimed at pleasing a wide range of buyers.
Joe
If Grand Am was a well reconized name for GM, why do they insist on spending millions in advertisement to tell people what a G6 is? Why not call it Grand Am, so people can see and appriciate the improvements in ride, roominess, engine output, and style?
What was wrong with STOPPING making the Taurus and call the Ford 500, Taurus? What does 500 stand for anywhy? What is wrong with Ford Contour instead of Ford Fusion?
There was nothing wrong if GM kept Buick Regal name, instead calling the new one LaCross. How can we keep track of brand improvements over the years if they keep changing names?
I still remember the two door 1977 Honda Accord. I loved my 1977 Buick Skylark with its 3.8L engine. Which Buick is Skylark now? Buick moved upscale. I think the closest is Chevy Malibu!
And dont you think the Camry has stuff inside it that makes it worth the roughly $2k more (I checked, it is about that much).
I dnt own either the Camry or the Fusion, and dont necessarily think I will in the near future. However, if you just look at the demand for the cars off the rental lot, I think that holds some clues.
I work in a Fortune 500 financial services firm and we have Hertz counters on location inside our offices. Good luck trying to find a Camry if you didnt book it 2 days in advance. The pecking order for the cars seems to be Camry/Accord (very very few Accords in the fleet) -> Sonata -> Altima/Mazda6 -> Malibu/Fusion -> Taurus.
Regular rental car drivers obviously do not care about brand or 'percieved' reliability. They will pick whatever makes them most confortable over longer drives.
Many of these people include those who drive SUVs (domestic as well as imports). So I do not think this selection will be necessarily biased by anything other than what is most comfortable and good to drive. And I definitely think the Camry is wiping everyone outin this competition. It is REALLY difficult getting your hands on one.
Also, the new Sonata is a car which really surprised the Hertz people. It seems like they purchased a few, and then they received many requests for that car. So they went on and added more to their fleet. I also think that except for the mileage (~17) and the cheapo seat cloth, it is a really good car.
And for the AARP comment, firstly I think the new Camry has one of the best interiors (and amenities) in this segment, simply because IT IS NEW! I am guessing that other cars in this segment will follow suite with their redesigns pretty soon.
Secondly, everything in the Camry just feels silk smooth and silent. Thirdly, superior build quality is evident. In Fusion, I could clearly see the dashboard cowls and the floor panels around the center console misaligned by about 6-7 mm (obviously not too many peopl would notice this, but it is a glaring flaw!)
Finally I dont think mid-size sedans need to appeal to yuppies. There are other cars for that. AARP is an extreme but yes, they are most definitely designed for people who have more comfort/safety/reliability etc in mind along with a healty dose of decent enough power.
And if for nothing else, I think Fusion's shaving on ABS (even a base Sonata which costs less has it!) and flicking the most ridiculous center console just to keep the price down messes with what could otherwise be a really fine car. If price is the only redeeming point, then the Sonata is more than competitive. And as another poster pointed out, it does seem like Ford has now set its sight on Hyundai as the competitor, given that Honda and Toyota seem to be so far ahead. Just wait for the new Accord to show up this car in even poorer light (I am biased towards the Accord, I think it handles better than a Camry).
What standard features would you be refering to? About all that is missing is ABS, which adds about $500 to the Fusion.
My comparison of comparables would be Fusion SE, w/ATX and ABS to Accord SE w/ATX. Fusion invoice is $17,753, after $1000 rebate. Accord is $20,088. The difference in cash price is $2335, based on this.
Fusion also has discount financing, for example 36 month at 2.9%. This would be worth about an additional $150 to $1500 depending on how you want to calculate it's value. Minimum net difference is therefore around $2500 and could be as much as about $3800.