Subaru XT Turbo Forester

johnb2251

3500rpm at interstate cruising will take a little getting used to

It's no big deal. Far too much concern (read: histrionics) has been expressed about this. It's a very pleasant Interstate cruiser.

corkfish

I agree. I just drove from CT to Maine and back again and found the car very enjoyable at 80 mph. Now if I put on an aftermarket exhaust, maybe there'd be a problem.

ace1000

The narrative for the XT in the PDF says that it "has a stronger and more linear torque delivery at low speeds and the turbo surge at 2500 rpm experienced in the Impreza WRX is not so apparent." Sounds like a torque curve that is less flat is what the engineers wanted for the XT.

I noticed that the gear ratios in the C/D article are different from those in the PDF for the XT. C/D shows the ratios that the PDF shows for the X and XS. Did C/D make a mistake or does the US MT get the same manual transmission as the X and XS?

ace1000

I thought Subaru drivers never went over the speed limit. In case John Ashcroft is including these messages in his database, I just want everyone to know that I can't comment on how the XT or any other car feels at speeds greater than the posted speed limit.

subearu

that C&D was incorrect in their gear ratios information, something that Jack had pointed out from a reference on another site. So, the PDF is correct.

-Brian

kullenberg

I just drove over to VA. and back in the 2003 OB wagon with a 5 spd, and at 62 MPH it was sitting on 3000 RPM, and was not objectionable. What's the big deal here?

johnb2251

I just drove over to VA. and back in the 2003 OB wagon with a 5 spd, and at 62 MPH it was sitting on 3000 RPM, and was not objectionable. What's the big deal here?

It's a non-issue - it was simply over-dramatized.

tmstevie

The one disappointment I have about the car, as I said earlier, is the lack of a moonroof. I spoke to 2 dealers about having one added & both seemed to think that wouldn't be a problem & offered referrals to have it done. I'm wondering if any of you have experience w/this and if there are any drawbacks to having this aftermarket modification?

ateixeira

Yes, I've had it done to 3 cars I've owned. There are trade-offs, both pro and con.

Pro:

* better controls, one-touch open/close/tilt
* programmable to close when you remove key
* lifetime no leak warranty
* cheap - $300 for pop-up, $900 for power w/shade
* we put one single roof on our Legacy, vs. 2 small ones stock

Con:

* they have to remove the OE headliner
* the new headliner can get dented (1 out of 3 had this problem)
* max size was 17"x30", much smaller than Forester's OE roof

Our power roof, on a Legacy, is great. I would recommend it. The pop-up one is tricky to handle and you have to store the glass, plus the clamps don't hold up forever (they're cheap to replace).

-juice

tmstevie

Yes, I would like the power roof, especially w/the tilt option (I don't think the Forester moonroof typically offers that, does it?)
I don't know what "OE" headliner is, though...?

dcm61

ateixeira

Forgot about that, yes, our ASC Model 750 roof does tilt. Forester's is probably too big to tilt! LOL

-juice

akasrp

Wondering about glare/sunlight coming off the turbo scoop toward the driver. My wife just got back from an XT test-drive and commented on the prominence of the scoop in her forward view (she’s 5’1) and wonders (especially in the lighter colors - White - Silver) if any of you have experienced any glare trouble...
Other than that she’s in love. Great to find a car that so perfectly accommodates both a 5’ and a 6’ driver.
Looks like a green light...

srp

tmstevie

I have the silver
In any case, at 5'4" I'm just a bit taller than your wife & I've had no problem whatsoever w/glare. Maybe this is a stupid question, but has she adjusted the seat height? Maybe higher would work better for her.

njswamplands

no problem in black xt with scoop

njswamplands

the roof is the main reason we got the premium, leather was not biggee as well as the stereo upgrade. the roof is just awesum

kens

I printed out the .pdf and looked at those torque curves. I also thought that the two were switched at first. The Forester looks like there's a flat spot around 2000RPM and then the power continues to build. The WRX torque curve looks awfully nice -- it looks like it builds as much torque by 2000RPM as the XT.

Ken

iluvsubaru2

For those who feel power is king you may wish to skip my post, but for anyone who, like me, buys a vehicle as a suite of pluses and minuses, read on:

I've reluctantly decided to buy the XS, over the XT. I say reluctantly, because I enjoyed the XT's "rush" (and with an AT). I enjoyed it, but it was offset by deficiencies in handling, vis-a-vis the XS. I drove both thru a low speed slolom, on a dry and wet track. XS handled with much more assurance and agility. Not to say XT handled poorly but only that XS bested it.

I hope Subaru fixes that. If they do, I will trade the XS in for an XT. For those of you who wish to "retune" it yourself my hat's off to you. But I'm reluctant to customize vehicles under warranty.

Aside from this, I'm a wee bit concerned with the new engine and turbo. Not much but I look forward to following owner reports over next year. I hope Subaru's new engine/turbo has same reliability as the N.A. 2.5 on XS does. We'll see.

Less significant factors in my decision go with an XS over XT: higher operating cost (premium fuel & lower mpg), higher insurance (not yet, but insurer tells me they may soon rate XT "high performance") possible faster depreciation (candle burning twice as bright, may burn half as long), & police bait potential (turbos/turbo scoops are noticed).

None of these are deal breakers for me. But they are considerations that relate to the total cost of ownership, that when combined with a handling deficit vs XS, tipped the scale (for now). I may trade a 2004 XS for a 2005 XT if Subaru brings the handling on par with XS, and XT engine prove to be as reliable as the NA 2.5, so I'll be keeping up with these discussions.

Jake
PS: Appreciate all the posts. They helped me make my decision. Particularly Jack's posts. Though it appears Jack's hit the road. I hope he comes back some more, some more, some more, some more (don't hit the road Jack), hope you come back some more. A pleasure to read his posts, which provoked a lot of thinking on my part.

kens

Jake,

Good choice. If the XS works better for you then that was the right choice to make. I commend you for not immediately jumping on the "more is better" bandwagon and taking a close look.

Best of all, you still ended up with a Forester!

Welcome to the club! ;-)

Ken

corkfish

What is the difference in suspension between the XS and XT?

rsholland

rsholland

http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/6269EE6FDF76D25- 9CA256D78002CE227

lumbar

As an OBS owner who has more or less shyed away from a Forester (or Legacy/Outback)for a new car because of the relatively puny towing capacity listed for the U.S. (2000 lbs auto; 2400 manual), I was interested that the link above from Australia gave a 1400 kg tow weight for the XT--a bit over 3000lbs. A check of the Subaru Australia website confirmed this-for either transmission.

I have a feeling this may be attributed to excessive lawyering for the American market, or possibly some perception that Subie owners in the U.S. don't tow stuff of any modest weight (???!) so it's better to keep the published specs low. If so, I think SOA should revisit this because the difference between 2000 and 3000 lbs (auto trans) excludes a lot of uses, particularly in the area of camping trailers (as mentioned in the Australian article). Underselling the vehicle's capabilities doesn't make a great deal of sense to me, and I can vouch for the fact that the lower specs for the U.S. will give some people pause.

p0926

Many here share your hunch regarding lawyer-phobia when it comes to published tow ratings. There have been several docmented instances where an identically equipped Subaru in an overseas market had a higher tow rating (IIRC the previous gen Forester was rated at 1500 lbs while in England it had a 3000 lbs rating).

-Frank P.

njswamplands

would be surprised if the xt really has 300 hp but with usa lawyers.......

kens

You mean the XT doesn't have 300hp? ;-)

Ken

allhorizon

My V6 Passat makes 3000rpm at 80mph. You can't hear the engine at that speed - even on the smoothest roads, tire noise will be much larger than that of the engine.

Most modern 4cyl. engines, and many 6cyl. engines are designed to run forever (>200,000miles) at 5000rpm. 3000-4000rpm is nothing for these engines. Lugging them (demanding power below 2000-2500rpm) is what destroys them shortly - although it may save you a few hundred $$$ on gas over the shortened lifetime.

- D.

pleiad7

My dealer called me yesterday and told me that the head of Subaru Western Region paid them a visit on Friday. During that visit, the sales manager pointed out to him that they have been unable to meet the demand for XT's, particularly silver ones. Western Region guy responded by immediately special-ordering 3 silver XT's for their dealership, which should roll off the truck in 2-3 weeks - and I'm getting first dibs under the VIP program! Yes!!!!

The call came just in time - I was about to fire off an irate email to IMBA (and cc to SoA) on how this dealer has been leading me on for almost 2 months now without delivering on their promise to sell me a car at VIP/invoice price.

My salesman also mentioned to me that, while they have no intention of marking their XT's up, they are definitely not budging on MSRP for their walk-in customers. Hey, it's California after all - is there anything that Californians don't pay a premium price for? I guess after all this hassle, IMBA is still the way to go...

lark6

Good for you, pleiad7. Way to stick to your guns (figuratively speaking of course) to get the car you want.

I look forward to hearing about your ownership experience.

Ed

stoner420

Just put down some $$ on a Cayenne Red 04 XT "Direct Control" AT (very nice shifting, I gotta say). My wife drove the XS and XT back to back, on some extra twisty roads. Afterward she said she couldn't really tell the difference in handling (although she's not exactly an enthusiast [yet ;-)] driver), though she could "just barely" tell the difference in power ... (she walked back into the showroom saying "that was awesome"). Subie #1 is my 02 WRX wagon 5MT. I drove the XT only on the same road, and although it is not *quite* at the same level of handling as my WRX, it was **QUITE** good nonetheless!! I put a few solid twists on it, and that AWD shone through, steering response was very sharp and felt quite similar to the WRX. The Yokohama Geolanders seem ok.. I'm probably not totally impressed, but I think they were still better than the RE92s of the WRX (don't remember exactly, I switched mine off a while ago). For an AT even, there was NO turbo lag.. it is totally different than a WRX, it felt more like driving my parents' Cadillac Seville (except that one this doesn't plow through like a giant tank..)

Should be picking it up tomorrow hopefully..

p0926

Pleiad7- Here's hoping that those XTs truely are on their way and they're not just stringing you along for another few weeks ;-)

-Frank P.

johnb2251

It sucks! Sure, it works fine when a car is right behind you, but on a country road when a car pops over the hill a quarter mile behind you with its brights on, the mirror doesn't dim at all. Although I love the little compass, I'd much rather have a standard mirror with manual day/night toggle.

tmstevie

Maybe there is something wrong w/your mirror's sensor? I live in the country, so I'm often in that situation & I haven't had that problem. At most it may take a second or two, but by the time I look away & back again, it's dimmed.

lfdal

I had my first day/night mirror for about 10 months or so - then one day it got overheated in the sun (car parked, moonroof open) and basically melted. I was never impressed with its performance, but as it was my first, figured that they must all be like that - wrong!

The one the dealer replaced under warrnty works about 200% better - a lot less lag, gets darker, etc

I'd get the dealer to take a look at it. I don't know how precise a test they can use for day / night performance. Does anyone else?

Larry

fargfam

Jake, you based your buying decisions exactly like me! I was torn between the XT and XS for quite some time. To this day, I still haven't tested one, and probably won't. After my June purchase, I continued to read the XT posts and wondered what I was missing. After 2 months of "counciling and reflection", I feel I made a wise decision.

Until this weekend... While at Babies-R-Us, I pulled up next to a matching Java Black XT. My wife quickly reassurred me that our's was better looking, (we have tinted windows) and I happily agreed with her. I thought I had finally conquered my XT envy, until the XT owners opened their mouths and exclaimed "OURS is FASTER!"

Oh the humanity...;>)

epp1

OK - So my '02 WRX wgn 5MT was due for a full clutch replacement due to the dreaded "shudder". Subie replaced no questions asked. My dealer had several XT available so I took the AT out first.

Wow. Strong acceleration even with A/C on full bore. Not WRX 5spd neck-snapping strong - just like a increasingly strong push in the back. Didn't "feel" as fast, but felt a heck of a lot more refined in its power delivery. My caveman timing attempts had it about par with my Rex 0-60 (6ish counting 1 Mississippi, 2 Mississippi...). Even the dealer, who navigates one of the Prodrive rally cars, was shocked (1st ride, brand new XT w/AT).

So, back for the MT. Yep, a neck snapper like my Rex. Torque came sooner and seemed to "pull" a little harder. Acceleration seemed no better timewise than the AT but is was more fun getting there. No happy with the lack of a ST shifter though. Felt like I was stirring molasses with a Leinenkugel's oar (sorry, gotta be from the Midwest). Smoother than my Rex 5MT but it just wallowed about the shift gates.

In short, wicked fun cars. Personally, I'd go with the AT for the smooth power delivery and seemingly identical acceleration times. Plus, it would give me a free hand to cover my smile when I crush unsuspecting hot rodders with a mini-ute (not really a fair consideration). Only complaint is the oft-discussed revs at highway speeds. My WRX carries right around 3 grand at 80mph with two bikes up. The XT was as high as 3500 at 80mph and no bikes. Both cars seems like they need an OD (AT) or 6th (MT). Tiny complaint on an otherwise great ride.

There is really nothing else like this out there. My WRX may be short for this world...

Sean
Mpls, MN

kens

Sean -- out of curiosity, is your WRX stock? I'm suprised you didn't think notice the huge improvement of turbo lag on the XT.

Ken

eps105

Here's a way to test the auto-dimming mirror, although it's still not scientific.

The mirror dims when the differential light from the rear light sensor (the little window next to the compass display) is much brighter than the light detected by the front light sensor (facing the windshield, just to the right of the mount). In other words, when headlights hit the rear sensor and the front sensor detects that it is dark out, it will dim.

You can trick it into thinking it's night by putting your finger over the front light sensor (again, the one facing the windshield) while in bright daylight. It should quickly and immediately (within 5 seconds) dim to a dark gray. (Make sure your car car is on; doesn't work with power off.)

If it is not quickly and visibly noticeable, take it back to your dealer. I've owned one in my last two Subaru's and they've always worked great. I will NEVER go back to a manual day/night mirror.

Hope this helps,
Elliot

p0926

Sean- Good write-up. Just one quick observation, you seem to be implying that having bikes on the roof increases the revs needed to attain a given speed. I'm no physicist but still pretty sure that's not the case (it will however eat into your gas mileage).

-Frank P.

epp1

Ken - Nope, no mods to my WRX (yet - reflash and TBE and UP forthcoming). You're right, I left out the noticeable lack of lag on the XT relative to the WRX. Hit the pedal and its there in an instant relative to the Rex.

Frank - Not sure about the science, but everything else equal the car has to work harder to accelerate or maintain a speed with bikes up top (sometimes they feel like a big sail). So - two cars same speed, same gear - I assume the same RPMs but how is the add'l resistance being compensated for - just more fuel? I'm ok with that if that's the answer. All I can tell you is the perceived exertion of the powerplant under heavy load is pronounced relative to an unburdened car.

I still want a 6th gear but they won't make a STi wagon dang it.

--Sean

johnb2251

Elliot, that's very interesting! So if I put a bit of opaque tape over the 'front' light sensor, then I can have the mirror dimmed indefinitely, correct? There wouldn't be anything inherently harmful in that (to the mirror I mean), would there?

dcdouglas

Frank,

Two bikes on the roof = increased wind drag

In order to maintain the same speed as an identical car (with no bikes on the roof) you would need to increase the power going to the engine (i.e. increased revs).

dcdouglas
(not a physicist, but just an old lab geek)

onemoremile

with a manual transmission the revs are speed and gear dependant. with bikes on the roof the engine will have to put out more power to maintain the same speed as without bikes. this is why the mpg is down a bit with bike on top. FWIW, most cars - WRX included - need around 6hp to maintain their highway speed (about 60mph) when they are unloaded and there is no wind. increasing the drag increases the amount of power needed to keep the car going at the same rate of speed. just becuase your car is running at say 3000 rpm doesn't mean that it is putting out the full throttle power shown at 3k on a dyno plot. you can run 3000 rpm and kick out less than 10hp if only at part throttle.
great, now i'm confused.

oregonboy

Unless the increased load forces you to drive in a lower gear, your rpm per mph will remain constant. The one possible exception is slippage in a non-locked-up torque converter (auto tranny).

-james

ateixeira

Congrats Jake.

No reasonable person, of sound mind, and sober, could justify NEEDING more power than the XS offers.

But I'm nuts so I still want one! LOL

-juice

corkfish

My test drive with the WRX and XT seemed to give opposite results. Put the WRX in 5th gear and floor it at 60 or 65 mph and the car just sat there. My first reaction was "this is unacceptable", it felt like a Ford Escort. Turbo lag on the car was so severe that it completely turned me off. The XT reminded me of a 1987 Buick Gran National except the rear end felt more firmly planted. It doesn't handle nearly as well as the WRX, but no question it's faster and the readily available thrust made it much more enjoyable to drive. I'm afraid that after I got out of the WRX and into my 1993 SE-R, my SE-R felt faster. All I could think is "this car does 60 in less than 6 seconds?"

p0926

Okay, I'm the least mechanical guy around but I'm certain that the engine revolutions required for a given gear to attain a certain speed is a constant factor. For example: going up hill towing a 3000 lb trailer or coasting down the same hill, if the speed is the same, the revs will remain the same. In other words, the engine just has to work harder (I.e. burn more gas), not faster.

-Frank P.

rochcom

Sean,
You mentioned you are having a clutch replaced on your WRX. What year is it and what mileage?

I am having trouble understanding why Subaru has still not fixed the problem. I had the clutch replaced on my '98 Forester at around 48000 and now I am having the problem again at 83,000. It was a really trying experience as I had to keep using the clutch during a 2 hour stop and go delay coming back to the US from Canada this weekend.

I would think that they would have solved the problem by now since that would save them a great deal of warranty expense. It makes me wonder whether the clutch in the XT is up to the task. I think it will be a while before I consider buying one.

stoner420

I had my 02 WRX clutch fixed over a month ago, the shudder is completely gone now (of course, we'll see if it returns in another 10k, but I doubt it based on the general consensus). Subaru reworked the mechanism at some point during the 03 model year, and everything is better now.

epp1: Agree with your consensus. We just bought an XT with automatic yesterday, the engine is just **amazing**. The boost is on 24/7, I think the turbo is already spooled ~1500 rpm. It's so quiet too, you can hear the whooshing and sucking when you hit the gas, and I haven't even removed the resonator. Kinda makes one wonder what might be accomplished by trading just a little bit of turbo lag for a bigger turbo...
:-O :-O >;-)

Also interesting, anyone notice the air intake on the XT? It has the same resonator tank system like on the WRX, but instead of using the WRX ram scoop, it's just pulling from directly under the hood! (It's a little dark, but you can sort of see it here: http://wrx.claud9.com/xt/DCP_0111.JPG ) Given that Subaru engineers could have just as easily (you'd think) reused the WRX ram scoop if it made sense, it kinda makes you wonder if there really is any point at all in worrying about where the air is being pulled from in these cars (in terms of CAI systems and all that).

y2kredmustang

I've checked other boards and can't seem to get a clear understanding why the Keyless Remote on my '04 XT has a range of about 2-3 feet. I've replaced the battery, taken the car and remotes to the dealer and they say it’s all good. It's really bad when I'm approaching the car from behind and I want to open the doors or the hatch. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.