Subaru XT Turbo Forester

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Comments

  • overtime1overtime1 Member Posts: 134
    The chains I have take about 5 minutes to put on...even at night in a driving blizzard. I know since I had to do it when our MDX got stuck in a particularly nasty parking spot. They also slip off in a minute or two at most.

    For a person that rarely encounters nasty conditions, chains are the best way to go IMO because they are efficient and economical.

    overtime
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Jack- Actually I'm going to agree that in George's case, a set of chains make the most sense. His only real concern is getting up and down the private drive to his cabin (what a mile maybe?) so I really don't see where buying snow tires would be cost effective. Also, it's quite possible that he could go 10 years and never encounter a situation where the stock all-season tires wouldn't be adequate (we really don't get that much severe winter weather here). The way I see it his single biggest concern is in conditions similar to what I believe that Carlos experienced and that is freezing rain. And if there's a solid layer of ice on a steep slope, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to tackle it, even with chains on.

    George- Generally speaking, the narrower the tire the better it performs in snow and ice so you'd probably be worse off with your Mazda's "aggressive" truck tires.

    -Frank P.
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    The chains I have take about 5 minutes to put on...even at night in a driving blizzard.

    But what is your life worth? Seriously? The last place I want to be is on the shoulder of a dark road in a low-visibility snowstorm, installing chains while other drivers go slip/sliding/spinning past. Way too many people have died in that exact circumstance, which I avoid like the plague.

    I can mount my dedicated snows in the safety and comfort of my garage whenever bad weather threatens, and then I'm ready for anything without having to worry one iota about having to deal with chains and all their hazards (or maybe not pulling over in time to install them under dangerous circumstances).

    Very cheap peace of mind.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I think they work when you have a clear cut change of seasons. That is definitely *not* the case in DC, we got our blizzard in late March, long after they would have been dis-mounted, and the first real snow we got this season came last night, January 26.

    It's just too unpredictable. We'd either have the snows on when they weren't needed, or have the summer tires on when we did. Murphy's Law.

    -juice
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    Granted not everybody is willing to do what I do. <more likely, nobody with any common sense>

    I pay attention to forecasts during winter. When a cold front is reportedly moving in, we always get at least a day's advance notice. That's when I first mount my snows. A week or two after the slick stuff's gone, if the long-term forecast is clear, off they come. If another front moves in, back on again.

    Some Oregon winters, I never have to mount them at all. Other years, I've mounted and removed them as many as three times, but only when needed. Result: One set of snows will outlast any car, and I always have the best tires for the conditions on the car.

    And it's good exercise, something I get too little of.
  • andmoonandmoon Member Posts: 320
    When I had my rwd volvo, I used to carry a can of spray on winter traction (by Prestone iirc) that claimed to give tires 4 times the traction of winter (maybe it was all season) tires. You sprayed it onto the treads (instructions says to spray on dry but the tires were always wet when I used it). With the tires sprayed, I could go up an icy hill in my 1wd volvo that 4wd pickups couldn't. Only lasted for about 10 miles (can claimed 20) but it seems perfect for short term needs.
    Don
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Very admirable of you Jack but you don't honestly expect everybody to do that do you?

    -Frank P.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    if the long-term forecast is clear

    You nailed it. That's just never the case in DC, it seems. They are wrong more often than they are right!

    In fact, one group did a study and found a more accurate method to predict weather was to just predict that the weather tomorrow would be the same as today!

    I carry a small amount of sand. Never needed it, though. :-)

    -juice
  • atlgaxtatlgaxt Member Posts: 501
    I know I am repeating a thread I launched over a month ago with this chains vs. snow tire discussion, but Carlos's post brought it back up and I was curious to know more about the circumstances of his incident and wanted to make sure things worked out OK for him.

    Jack, I respect your opinion but in this case for my use (Frank nailed it in his description of my potential use), I think chains would make the most sense. However I am intrigued to learn more about the spray on traction product and wonder if anyone else has knowledge or experience with it. I'm guessing with the XT hp and AWD, chains, and this spray on traction stuff, I could climb the sheer wall of an icy cliff!
  • overtime1overtime1 Member Posts: 134
    Most of the time you'll be mounting chains on an AWD car is off the beaten path that are not high priority for the snowplows. In other words, very low traffic zones. My example is probably typical...the Acura was parked on a very remote road and traffic was a non-issue. Now my choice of parking spots definitely could have been better!

    I see the attraction of winter tires for sure but for someone like me who might encounter winter conditions a few times a year and even then the all weather tires usually do a fine job if you drive well, chains are a very good choice. If you frequently encounter snow/ice/freezing conditions then winter tires are the way to go.

    overtime
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    However I am intrigued to learn more about the spray on traction product

    What I dimly recall is that back in the '70s/'80s or thereabouts when front-drive cars were bursting on the scene touting their allegedly superior winter driving capabilities, several GM models (Chev I specifically remember) were available with an accesory sprayer with which the driver could (through a nozzle in each rear wheelwell) spray a small amount of chemical traction compound from a reservoir onto your rotating tire, temporarily providing improved traction on snow and ice. Not terribly unlike a windshield washer tank, pump, and nozzles. What it was that went into the tank, I never knew for certain. Probably a mixture of saltwater and who knows what.
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    Very admirable of you Jack but you don't honestly expect everybody to do that do you?

    Works great for me, but no. However, it is the only exercise I get all year, so if you persuade me to stop doing it, my wife will hunt you down and kill you.
  • cptpltcptplt Member Posts: 1,075
    get the Nokian WR, they are H rated (IIRC some may even be V rated), as good as stock all seasons in dry and are snow traction rated and can be run all summer unlike regular winter tires!
  • cmunizcmuniz Member Posts: 604
    George - Not to worry!! I,too, used to be an Isuzu guy and I find the XT to be just as good in snow. The one advantage that Isuzus had was higher clearance and a low range. You will be happy with the preformance of the XT in the Georgia mountains since I live in the NC mountains and encounter snow, steep roads and a steep, windy driveway all the time.

    The snow we had was soft and dry and then got a coating of sleet on top - a very unsusual event. The tires sank down about 4" but I think the real problem was the coating of sleet on top that made the surface very slippery. I have gone up the driveway many times in snow before with the XT without problems. Yesterday morning I dug out the snow around the car, made two tracks for the tires and it went right up the driveway without problem. My driveway has a steep drop-off on one side and supports for our deck on the other where I got stuck. When the car started drifting sideways on a turn I decided to stop, leave it and not take a chance on causing any damge. It stayed right where I left it and no damge was done to anything.

    Having said all that,if I were you I would buy a set of cable chains to use in an emeregency while you are up there. They cost about $50 or less and it is cheap insurance. Having driven in snow for many years I am more worried about going down slippery roads than going up and chains would provide good traction in both directions. When you get rid of your geolanders, replace them with all-season tires that have a better snow rating. I think snow tires are overkill in your situation.

    Hope I answered your concerns. Like several people have said, the Forester XT is as good on snow as any vehicle and better than most, but it has limitations. One problem I may have caused myself was being too heavy on the gas pedal causing the tires to break loose. One feature that I liked about the Isuzus is that they had a "winter" button that would start the vehicle in 3rd gear to prevent wheel slip. With all the power that the XT has, it would be a good feature to add. In it's absense I would caution all XT drivers to be very light on the gas pedal when it is slippery.
  • cmunizcmuniz Member Posts: 604
    One more thing I forgot - my XT has AT, not manual therefore the value of the "winter" button..
  • dcm61dcm61 Member Posts: 1,567
    Not sure if it applies to the "direct control" AT in the XT, but my '03 OBW AT will start in 2nd and stay in 2nd if I select 2.

    DaveM
  • bluesubiebluesubie Member Posts: 3,497
  • krccrkkrccrk Member Posts: 36
    I did find the webpage http://www.tiregrip.com/ for spray-on snow traction. Anybody use it?

    Ken
  • lfdallfdal Member Posts: 679
    When I decided to go with a set of snow tires, I was looking also at the beating the rims take around here due to potholes and other plow induced road damage.
    Since I was going to put the cheaper rims on anyway, and the Geolanders really weren't all that great IMO, I figured I'd go for some basic snow tires. So far the Winterforce tires have been great.
    That being said, since I put them on right before Thanksgiving and take them off the 2nd week of March, I expect to put about 4k-5k per year on them. Since most snow tires at that price point degrade early, if I get 4 seasons out of them for $210 I'll be very happy.

    I'm wondering if the people happy with the Geolanders in the snow drive MT's vs AT's. Control, I think, is always a little better with a MT.

    Re: batteries, As soon as someone around here gets size 35's in stock again I'll replace mine. Not that it's died on me, but only because a battery should also IMO, have as wide a margin of extra current available as possible. I remember driving almost 100 miles with a trashed alternator one night in a snowstorm. The battery was gasping when I made it to the driveway, but I did make it. The reserve power of the 320 CCA in the XT is just too little. Silly of them not to offer a HD battery as an option, esp for cars touted as winter vehicles - lots of extra battery drain with the AWP.

    I'm wondering if the people happiest with the battery also perhaps have longer commutes (more recharge/recovery time) than those of us complaining about the battery being under-sized for its task. My commute is only 4 miles each way, but its mostly stop and go and usually takes a half hour or more to cover the 4 miles. SO its lots of idling, not the best engine speed to recharge a battery.
    re: the HAL 2004 Auto climate control - I've STUDIED that manual. The only somewhat brash comment I'll make is that given a way to rewrite the software for that thing, I'll offer odds I could do a better job myself. - Talk about inviting barbs. :<)

    Getting ready for the next snow storm tonight/tomorrow morning. As usual for the Boston area predictions range 6 inches to over a foot. Are weather people in the rest of the country this bad?

    Larry
  • lbhaleylbhaley Member Posts: 91
    Those of you planning to buy studded tires should consider the Bridgestone Blizzak WS-50 snow tires. They have a special cellular tread compound that actually grips ice. I thought that was probably marketing hype when I installed my first set on my 98 Forester. The first time I drove down my long icy down hill driveway I decided to test the claim and slammed the brakes on hard. The car just stopped! I honestly thought there was something wrong with my ABS system as I didn't get into the ABS at all. Later on glare ice I was able to activate the ABS so there is a limit to everything. These tires are EXCELLENT in snow. I can go through just about anything as long as I have clearance under the car. They are also reasonably quiet on the highway and the handling feels good. I liked them so much I bought a set mounted on steel wheels for my XT. (If you get them from Tire Rack make sure you tell them it's for an X or XS. They wouldn't sell me steel wheels for an XT). I'm sure the tires don't have as much grip on ice as studs, but I'll bet they are surprisingly close. I think is is a good compromise for 98% of the icy conditions you will face, and they don't tear up the road surface the way studs do.

    -les
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    I'm wondering if the people happy with the Geolanders in the snow drive MT's vs AT's. Control, I think, is always a little better with a MT.

    Mine's the 5-speed, and I got terrific results from the Geolanders this year.

    For most kinds of driving, I'd agree with you that MTs give better control. However, for snow conditions (and especially for getting started from a stop on an uphill grade with minimal wheelspin) I don't think anything beats an automatic.
  • atlgaxtatlgaxt Member Posts: 501
    for the additional info. I am glad you got the XT going again without problem.
  • lfdallfdal Member Posts: 679
    I agree - also a car with more torque like the XT can spin the tires easier. I remember my father teaching me to drive a standard in the snow. He was very "unforgiving" anytime I caused a wheel spin that he could have avoided. Taught me to drive with a real light touch in the winter.

    Larry
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Rumor has it we may see a special edition LL Bean Forester.

    This is what one of the staff at the SoA booth told me and Bob at NAIAS, and now we've seen a 2nd rumor that implies the same thing.

    Get this - it may get...MORE POWER! LOL! As if the XT needs it.

    Any how, just thought I'd share. If you think the XT has too much power, then the LL Bean may be just right for you, with WAY too much power.

    -juice
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    If you think the XT has too much power, then the LL Bean may be just right for you, with WAY too much power.

    Maybe with all that extra power they'll drop in 2.91 axles.
  • jpfkkjpfkk Member Posts: 43
    I've read many of the informative posts here--and many were helpful in making my decision to purchase my XT (automatic, black, premium). For that I very much thank this group.

    I've only had the car for about three months, but have had the good fortune (or misfortune) to test the car's mettle on snow quite a bit. Here are my observations that may or may not be helpful to others struggling with the XT on snow. This is based on driving hilly roads (some dirt only) in New York's Catskill Mountains (granted, not the biggest mountains in the country, but mountains nonetheless)during snowstorms of 22, 12 and 8 inches (24 more on the way, I am told). These storms included everything from light powder to heavy wet snow and also freezing conditions where ice was firm underneath an inch or two of snow.

    First, the grip of the Forester XT on snow is particularly strong. I've never once spun the tires and have experienced no slippage in the three snowstorms that I outline above. That includes on normal roads (some plowed, some not) as well as a few trailheads on the way to snowshoeing, etc. At no time were my girlfriend and I ever concerned about the car's ability on snow--up or downhill.

    Second, I can't say the Geolander tires "suck." I guess all things are relative, but these are pretty darn good tires. In fact, when I was purchasing the vehicle, I looked into an immediate upgrade of the tires (something I always do) and the dealer told me there wasn't much else I could do to upgrade them because the Geolanders are very good tires. I confirmed this with two other tire dealers who said these were, overall, pretty darn good tires. I am also told the tires on the XT premium are slightly better than the tires on the other trim levels, although at this point, the only difference I can discern is that one has black lettering and the other white lettering. My guess is that the Geolanders are fine for 98% of all the winter driving that people need to do. I have family in Montreal and plan to take the Geolanders through the Adirondacks straight through to Montreal and Quebec--in the dead of winter.

    Third, the Winterforce tires are considered the absolute best by the Subaru dealer (studded, please) as well as a couple of other folks who felt they needed snowtires for extra traction in their jaunts to Upstate, New York, as well as Vermont and Maine. I know of two people who have gone to Maine in rough snow using the Winterforce tires and have not had one problem. I don't feel the need to upgrade, or have a separate set of snow tires, but if I did, I would buy an extra set of rims with the Winteforce tires on them.

    Fourth, all snow is not equal. I think snow in the Northeast is heavier and more wet than most of the snow you get in the south. Not sure why I think that, but I do know snow from Northern Canada is definitely heavier than snow from New York--believe me, I have a back that will testify to that. I can't imagine the snow you would get in Georgia would present any greater challenge than what we've had in the Catskills--and I have had not one problem with traction and safety. Ice is an entirely different matter and I am happy to report there that I've had no traction problems on ice either.

    Fifth, my biggest concerns about driving in snow are not related to the XT, but rather to the folks who never learned to drive their cars or SUVs properly. We pass a great deal of large SUVs that don't get good traction and spin out. Proper use of the gas (and no brake) and the XT is about all I need to feel safe, but then I tend not to over think this stuff. I need to know.

    Six, I am a big believer in chains. Not for the long haul, obviously, but throwing a set of chains in the car on long trips where a great deal of snow could be anticipated is a smart, safe move. Plus, the new chains are much easier to get on and get off than the old chains ever were. Given that they don't cost a ton, they might be a nice solution.
  • corkfishcorkfish Member Posts: 537
    Anyone notice that Subaru's turbo 2.5 is now on Ward's 10 best engine list?
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    I certainly agree with your comments about the Geolanders in snow. Mine, plus the Forester's matchless native ability, far exceeded my expectations. However, the tires were still essentially brand-new when we got 10-14" of snow. New tires with full tread depth, and still having sharp edges on all the tread blocks, will always perform better in snow than the same tire a year or two later. That, plus the occasional glare ice we get, is why I'll invest in extra wheels and Winterforce tires. I wish Costco carried them; they're currently running a $60-off coupon on four new Bridgestones. Although the Winterforce is made by Bridgestone/Firestone, Costco doesn't carry that particular tire.
  • overtime1overtime1 Member Posts: 134
    I would bet that Subaru won't make the LL Bean any more powerful but instead might come clean with the "real" hp numbers of the XT.

    overtime
  • dcm61dcm61 Member Posts: 1,567
    That's exactly what I was thinking regarding the "increase" in HP for the LL Bean edition.

    DaveM
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    Yes, that's what I would expect. Or maybe (even better) offer one with the 'true, as-delivered' HP and another that's detuned a bit more, for 87-octane and better MPG.
  • bluesubiebluesubie Member Posts: 3,497
    Wonder if SoA marketing will use that the way Nissan has?

    -Dennis
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    corkfish: cool? Anyone got a URL for that?

    They could pitch the LL Bean as the quieter one with more relaxed gearing and more insulation. Who knows?

    -juice
  • dcm61dcm61 Member Posts: 1,567
    will probably be 5EAT SportShift, VTD and maybe VDC. I'm willing to bet there with be no 5MT offered. Sorry guys.

    DaveM
  • lark6lark6 Member Posts: 2,565
    ovetime: I hope you're right about the Bean Forester numbers vis-a-vis the "plain vanilla" XT. I'd prefer not to drive around a co-marketing agreement on wheels as I buy enough clothing and outdoor equipment from Bean anyway.

    However if, as DaveM suggests, that's where the Sportshift and VTD first rear their heads in a Forester turbo, then I'll have to EAT (pun intended) those words.

    Related: The new Bean spring catalog features an '04 Bean Outback ad, which states that $100 from every '04 sold wil be donated to the Lance Armstrong Foundation.

    Ed
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'm fine with it as long as the product isn't BBQ Pork Rinds. My closet is full of LL Bean stuff any way.

    They did hint that Sportshift would make it to that model, plus you can always de-badge.

    -juice
  • lark6lark6 Member Posts: 2,565
    As always, good things come to those who wait. eventually we may even see that Forester STi, likely right before the change to a new platform.

    I just hope they come in colors compatible with my anthracite OZs, else I'll have to sell 'em and find a set in gold.

    Ed
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Maybe if they move the LL Bean upmarket, with 250hp, they could tune the regular XT for 87 octane, and/or relax the gearing. It would be good to have 3 levels of engine performance, I might pick the one in the middle.

    -juice
  • jpfkkjpfkk Member Posts: 43
    You make a good point. New tires, with their sharp, defined edges cut the snow better and when you naturally lose those edges with time, the same tire just won't perform as well. Very true and I am very much in agreement. That's why my strategy is to get the first year (possibly a second?) and then get an additional set of rim and snow tires. Bummer about Costco, but I guess that the tire makers sell their high-end tires through specialty shops and you probably won't see those tires coming to Costco anytime soon. But, heck, I could be wrong. The dealer that I bought my car from also recommended that I look at a tire from Cooper, a studded snow tire that he had heard a lot of good things about. Apparently, they are much less costly than the Winterforce. The salesman that helped me said that in the Adirondacks the Cooper studded tire (not sure of the specific model or line name, but can check) is the preferred tire for Subaru drivers. He still recommended the Winterforce but only because he personally had not driven on a set of the Cooper tires. Perhaps they do cost less...and are just as good...that would be a worthwhile compromise...
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    The Winterforce isn't a high-end tire. Many of the big-name snow tires (in our Forester sizes) sell up in the $90-$110 range. The Winterforce is only about $52 per tire from Tirerack, plus $7 or $8 for shipping. Very reasonably priced. If it's as good as those who've used it says it is, that's a great value.

    If only Costco carried it...

    See if you can get the exact model of the Cooper and what its price is.
  • jpfkkjpfkk Member Posts: 43
    Ballistic...good to know about the Winterforce tires and their reasonable price. I called my salesperson. He says the name of the Cooper is the Weather Master S/T 2. On the Cooper Web site there is a decent picture and the comment that it meets "severe snow use definition." I also did a Google search on the tire and there are a few reviews in off-roading magazines that suggest that the Cooper is indeed a premium snow tire. I can't tell the price on line but it looks like they retail for about $300 for the set. Probably available at a discount. At this point, it appears there are three good tires being suggested for the XT--the Cooper, the Winterforce and the Blizzak (which received a strong endorsement a few postings prior). I will probably look into all three. Anyone with any experience on the Cooper Weather Masters? Debate and discuss... ;)
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    The special cellular tread structure that gives the Blizzak an advantage extends only down through the outer 50% or so of the total tread depth. That portion of the Blizzak's tread wears away faster than a "normal" winter tire, and once that cellular portion is gone, you've lost all of the traction advantage; you're now on an ordinary 50%-worn snow tire.

    Blizzaks are mainly for people who need nearly the ice traction provided by studs, but who live in areas where studs are illegal. Otherwise, studded tires are usually cheaper and also a bit better on hard ice.
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    I'm getting quotes from Portland Cooper dealers ranging from $84 to $105 for this tire. That puts it well above the Winterforce. I'm too cheap to pay more unless the Cooper has a compelling advantage.
  • lfdallfdal Member Posts: 679
    JB - cheap is riding on bald tires in a monsoon :<), frugal is trying to get the most for your hard earned money.

    Cheap can get you killed, frugal means you get to have some bucks to enjoy your retirement.

    I know some people thought I was cheap when I was expounding my views that some of the XT's features were not all they could be in this price class.

    Larry
  • oregonboyoregonboy Member Posts: 1,650
    Jack - you mentioned that you expected to get 10 to 12 years of service from your snow tires. There was an article... I think in Road & Track regarding rubber degrading and tire life.

    As I recall, they said that after about six years, rubber degrading will cause a significant reduction in traction. Suggestions to prolong tire life (when not on the vehicle) included:

    Store in a cool location
    Air-down the tires
    Store tires in plastic bags

    There may have been more, but that's all I recall off-hand. Anyone else read the article?

    james
  • jonjonsjonjons Member Posts: 19
    I have been very happy with the ContiExtremeContact since I replaced my OEM Geolandars. In most other respects the Contis perform comparably to the Geo's (for example, noise levels, wet stopping distance and side wall flex seem similar). However, the performance of the Contis in snow is FAR superior. They also promise better wear characteristics than the Geos. Since I liked everything about the Geos except snow performance and wear, these seem ideal for me.

    Jon
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    How expensive?
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    rubber degrading...Store in a cool location...Air-down the tires...Store tires in plastic bags

    Serendipitously, I store my tires in my crawl space (cool), and usually cover them with plastic (mainly to keep the spiders and spiderwebs off). I haven't depressurized them before, but that wouldn't be hard to do. I'd want a better air compressor, though; my little 12-volt jobbie would take forever reinflating four tires.

    I think quite a bit of the degredation that can prematurely age a tire results from ultraviolet sunlight, from the constant flexing in use, and from the effects of heat buildup. A tire not on the car won't experience those conditions and ought to last quite awhile. In the past when I was driving more miles year-round than now, I had no difficulty getting 8 or 9 years out of snow tires.

    In fact I still have two, on OEM '79 RX-7 alloys, that ran from '78 until '89 and still probably have half their treadlife.
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