Subaru XT Turbo Forester

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Comments

  • stuhallstuhall Member Posts: 59
    My problem with the AT was that at highway speed when letting off the throttle the transmission would disengage the engine and the engine would idle at 1K. Applying gas resulted in the Tach revving up but with no linkage to the tranny I was just coasting. I hit the rev limiter once when I need to accelerate in heavy traffic not realizing my car had decided Neutral was a better gear than Drive.

    I would have to manually shift back to N and then D several times to get the transmission to engage again. I found it to be very disturbing and dangerous considering the heavy traffic I drive in daily.

    SoA said it was a manufacturer defect in the Mitsubuishi transmission. If it's happened to you I'd open a case ASAP.
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    Subarus are suppposed to be dependable, but with yours I'd suggest carrying a case of Depends just in case.
  • lfdallfdal Member Posts: 679
    jb - Thought I'd just tow an outhouse like that fellow in the commercial.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Insert the obligatory potty trailer hitch attachment here.

    Back to the XT now?

    Steve, Host
  • hayduke01hayduke01 Member Posts: 128
    Something else I didn't know. Is that just in the XT, or other models as well?
  • miamixtmiamixt Member Posts: 600
    not sure, learned that from Stu. The turbo is from Mitsubishi, and I said I would never own another Mitsubishi product again! If you do have any problems, make sure to post them here
  • m4ethm4eth Member Posts: 101
    How can that be...a transmission from Mitsubishi or turbocharger??? I thought that Subaru had the one of its kind AWD system. So how can the transmission now come from Mitsubishi??? Plus I would think that all Forester lines...X XS and XT would have the same transmission, only the engine was modified??

    Mike
  • miamixtmiamixt Member Posts: 600
    Mitsubishi makes parts for many Cars, too many Cars. They should stick to making Televisions and those Japanese Zeros from World War Two, IMHO!
  • zmanzman Member Posts: 200
    Mitsubishi AT? Wow. What about the MT?

    Zman
  • andmoonandmoon Member Posts: 320
    Mitsubishi makes a lot of parts (look at drive belts in most makes). Although I do not have any experience with mitsu cars, the mitsubishi turbocharger in my 88 volvo lasted 200K miles and was working fine when the car died in an accident.
    Don
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Mike- I can't answer the "who makes the tranny" question but I do know that the transmission and AWD system are totally separate components. Also, the gearing is different in the XT's 5-speed vs the X & XS's.

    -Frank P.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Mitsu makes the turbo, but so what? It's not a ball bearing turbo, not is it even a twin scroll design.

    What matters is what's around it, not the conch shell itself. Components like the intercooler, BOV, ECU, fuel pump, etc. are probably more important to the performance of the vehicle.

    -juice
  • bluesubiebluesubie Member Posts: 3,497
    "SoA said it was a manufacturer defect in the Mitsubuishi transmission."

    I would like to see more evidence of that. Did SoA tell you this, or did you hear it from an advisor or tech?

    -Dennis
  • miamixtmiamixt Member Posts: 600
    wow, the mitsi turbo charger in my 86 Dodge Colt lasted two Months, what a difference, yet as Juice says, "so what"!. However lets keep focused on the Tranny, I mean it's not just Stu that has reported "strange happenings"! Whatever the problem, it's covered by the excellent Subaru Warranty, now if the on board Computer trys to nail me for Red lining at 8K, when in fact I was going 8 MPH, then I too will be seeing RED! I wonder if the on board Computer keeps statics on Hal 2004's unique Auto Climate performance as well?
  • lucien2lucien2 Member Posts: 2,984
    The Mitsubishi-built 5-speed in our 1991 Ford Explorer was still pulling when we sold it with 100k on the odo.
  • leo2633leo2633 Member Posts: 589
    The 5 speed trans in my '87 Montero had no problems whatsoever when I sold it in 2001 with 150K.

    Len
  • miamixtmiamixt Member Posts: 600
    eh, we were mostly talking about the XT here though?. I hope my comment does not take us back into the 60's again, too painful! If you do notice any "surging" w/o power, or strange XT Transmission happenings (hopefully from those of you that have one) keep us informed , Gandhi wants to know!...
    "Sen. Hillary Clinton's mouth got her into trouble after she joked that legendary Indian leader Mohandas Gandhi was someone who "ran a gas station down in St. Louis."
  • lfdallfdal Member Posts: 679
    With the info I downloaded from Grahm's Oz links, I see that the XT auto transmission is different than the X or XS automatic.

    If I recall its due to some solenoids altering the shift characteristics among other things. I don't have the info in front of me as I'm now running on my new homebuilt system and haven't migrated all my archives over yet.

    I can say this - I had an 03 XS, and my 04 XT, different engine notwithstanding, definitely shifts differently (better IMO FWIW) - oh goody, two interent abbreviations in a row - I've acvhieved....)

    Larry
  • m4ethm4eth Member Posts: 101
    Larry could the oil stick residue be coolant mixing with the oil...I've heard that some motors were getting coolant leakage because of gasket issues???????? If your getting foam it may also be an indication of water. What color is your coolant, yellow green...Toyota uses red stuff.

    Mike
  • lfdallfdal Member Posts: 679
    For now I'm putting it down to a combination of a long drive and setting overnight in cold weather.

    There's no smell of anti-freeze in the oil, nor does the tank seem to be getting lower. BTW - the coolant is green.

    I've sent for an oil analysis kit and will wait until I get the results back before I worry anymore about it.

    Also haven't heard about XT engines having a seal problem. Although anything's possible, I guess.

    Larry
  • ugly1ugly1 Member Posts: 52
    Picked up a case of filters at the dealer the other day but forgot the washers. Can anyone tell me the size and material of the washer so I can just pick one up at the local Napa store? Its a drive to the dealer for me. Thanks

    John
  • dcm61dcm61 Member Posts: 1,567
    From what I've heard, the only place to get them is at the dealer.

    Suggestion - have the dealer mail you a half dozen or dozen crush washers.

    DaveM
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Mike- The coolant leak you're referring to does not include the XT's engine. Besides, on the engines involved, the leak doesn't usually appear until the vehicle is several years old with 10s of thousands of miles on the odo so that in itself would exclude the XT. Additionally, the XT's engine is designed differently and I'm sure it doesn't use the same head gaskets. Oh yeah, in the cases mentioned, the leak is to the outside, not internally where it would contaminate the oil.

    Larry is taking the cautious approach by getting the oil analyzed, but that’s a good thing, if for no other reason than it’ll give him peace of mind.

    -Frank P.
  • hypovhypov Member Posts: 3,068
    Was thinking if it was foaming that solidified in the cold temps. Sort of like soda foam will ice against an ice cold glass.

    -Dave
  • m4ethm4eth Member Posts: 101
    Frank P....has the coolant leak been fixed for the 04 X and XS motors?...or can this problem occur in the 04 models motors.

    Mike
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Mike- Reread my previous post. No offense but it seems to me that you're obsessing over reliablity issues. It's not like the head gasket problem affects every vehicle. I don't have the stats but I'm guessing it was only a very small percent and I'm satisfied with the approach that Subaru has taken to fixing the problem.

    -Frank P.
  • m4ethm4eth Member Posts: 101
    Frank P...coolant leakage is a big deal...I assume by your response that the 04's have the same motor design and thus leakage can and is an remains an issue...I also assume that the recommended fix is a liquid stop-leak additive to the coolant which can help prevent this issue from occurring... It sounds like this issue is not easy solved by a gasket change...warpage must make tolerances as such that the currently designed gasket can't fill the gap and you could develop a leak?
    I would hope that Subaru would make a hardware change (gasket) to avoid the use of short lived additives.
    Mike
  • dcm61dcm61 Member Posts: 1,567
    "Only early Phase II 2.5 liter engines are affected by this campaign.
    Phase I 2.5 liter engines (some 1999 model year and prior years) are not
    affected. Countermeasures applied to the manufacturing process for those
    2002 and later VINS not affected by this campaign have eliminated the
    need for this campaign to be performed on those vehicles
    ."


    DaveM
  • m4ethm4eth Member Posts: 101
    Sounds like the coolent leak issue has be officially corrected for the 04s!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • enzyme2enzyme2 Member Posts: 1
    I just had my rear differential replaced at 200 miles in my XT MT. Between 40-50 mph I could hear a loud whine. Dealer claimed it was the turbo but the noise was independent of engine speed. Dealer claims that this problem has occurred in other Subie models that share the "posi" rear. It's a problem in drivetrain alignment. Noise is gone now, but I was without the car for a week waiting for diagnosis and parts.
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    Wow - that doesn't exactly inspire confidence. I don't hear any whine from my drivetrain, but the overall noise level it produces is not exactly quiet.
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Sounds like it was defective leaving the factory. Did you notice it during your test drive?

    -Frank P.
  • dcm61dcm61 Member Posts: 1,567
    But do you hear a whine from your passenger seat? ;-)

    DaveM
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    At times like those, I selectively pretend to be hard of hearing - a useful skill I learned from my father.
  • jason_elsjason_els Member Posts: 57
    Haven't been around for a while but thought I'd post about my experiences with my XT.

    As some of you know, I bought one in September, thus becoming one of the first people in the Northeast to get one (yaay!). My impressions so far:

    First off, this is a tremendously capable car. It's comfortable, goest fast, stops assuredly, has good ergonomics, excellent visibility, performs as well on backwoods dirt roads as on Park Avenue (or worse, the FDR). All this on top of its excellent cargo capacity, and stunning snow performance.

    But for specifics:

    I was caught on the NY State Thruway in our fierce snow storm back just before Christmas. The snow started just outside of Saratoga Springs and didn't stop until the next day. The week before I had just put on 4 Winterforce studded snows for a trip up to Vermont. Well it didn't snow in Vermont but it sure as hell got cold.

    I can confirm for those wondering that the outside temperature indicator does show negative temperatures.

    Winterforce snow tires are excellent. The first week I had them they were definitely skittish on dry roads but my 800 mile trip up to Vermont and Canada wore off whatever coating was on them and now they hold the dry at least as well as the Geolanders; I haven't pushed them. They are snows after all. On the Thruway they were terrific. As the snow began to pile-up along with the accidents, the Forester was sure-footed the entire time. I passed stuck SUVs and passenger cars who got trapped in a spider's web of an unplowed rest stop on I-84. I pulled in to the rest stop and was the ONLY car to get out of the 9 or 10 cars and SUVs that were stuck there. I don't know if I could have done it with just the stock tires but I know that light cars with skinny tires are the best things in snow short of a snowcat. I arrived home safe and sound. Though it was an anxious drive I was more worried about other people hitting me than anything else. The deicers all performed without a hitch and the driving lights were excellent in the white-out conditions after dark.

    The automatic climate control really isn't bad. When you first turn it on yes, it does go to defrost but once the car warms it switches to floor heat. The A/C drive does engage but the compressor itself does not come on below freezing temperatures. I believe this happens to place a load on the engine so it heats faster. When the defroster button is depressed in my car, hot air comes out, not cool nor cold. If your car doesn't, get it fixed.

    I originally complained about rattles in the car but discovered there weren't any. It was my broken but functioning garage door opener rattling in the sunglasses holder. Heh. Oops.

    I put winter blades on the car but a winter wiper for the rear is a special-order item from Subaru. Booooo! Should have made it a standard wiper. I still don't have the one I ordered from the dealer. Grrrrrr.

    The clutch is no longer so abrupt on the uptake. At 6500 miles it's not as stiff as it was when I bought the car and I can shift very smoothly. The short first gear must be kept in mind when launching but again, you get used to it. I've driven to Paramus a few times and anyone who has ever tried to merge onto Route 17 knows what I'm talking about. The explosive acceleration is desperately needed on that ghastly highway and the XT doesn't disappoint one bit. In fact it's almost scary how quickly the car accelerates. You have to watch what's ahead and learn by sound when to shift or you'll rear-end the person ahead of you. I can shift in city traffic easily and it's not a chore. Maybe I'm just used to it but I think the break-in has made all the difference. First is short but it doesn't annoy me nearly as much as it does Ballistic and I find it very useful going up my driveway.

    The battery does not suck. I woke-up early one morning in Montpelier with -12F and the car started right up. Now my car didn't sit on the dealer's lot but a week after it arrived on the truck, and after a few raspy cold cranks it fired right-up. I'm getting an engine heater though as I do go up to Vermont rather frequently.

    Please illuminate the door lock switch!

    On my 800 mile trip I did indeed worry about the comfort of the seat. I'm 5' 11" and don't like how short the seat cushion is but thought I could bear it. I was surprised to find that I wasn't uncomfortable after a long drive. The seats aren't as glorious as Peugeot or Volvo, but they were comfortable. My big gripe is that my seat sinks over time. Every hour or so I had to reach for the wheel and crank the seat back up as it keeps sinking. I have to get the dealer to take a look at it.

    I do not like the non-switching high beam actuators. I prefer a quick pull to change from high to low. The swatting move takes more time and requires a slight but distracting reach. I also have found myself getting into the car and mistakenly only turning on the parking lights completely oblivious to the fact that I have no lights on the rear of the car. I'm lucky I haven't been pulled over or struck! There really should be a light sensor to warn of driving at night with the just the daytime running lights like maybe not making the dash lights come on when the parking lights are on unless using the top-mounted parking light switch. I think the two switches should trade functions.

    Put a screen in front of the intercooler intake. It's a leaf sucker in the fall and will likely make an awesome bug sucker come spring.

    Cayenne Red is beautiful for the Forester but I would have prefered the purple-blue or the green. The champagne color needs to be retired.

    Make a nav module for the dash compartment.

    Make the sunglasses holders deeper. Curved sunglasses do not fit in them.

    The hill holder clutch works great. Mine was adjusted perfectly when I got the car. I use it and consider it a great safety feature. Certainly saves clutch wear.

    The autodimming mirror doesn't dim quickly or deeply enough. It's a good mirror but should be more sensitive and get darker.

    Spend the $1.00 and put a light in the glove compartment. It's an embarassment not to have one on a car this price. Certainly more so considering there's a socket and wiring stays made for one.

    And finally.....

    Offer the sunroof with the manual!

    I bought the Subaru because I have a killer dirt driveway with a 50% grade and 3 switchback curves and I work late at night and don't want to have leave work early. The piece of mind I get from knowing I don't have to fear snow is a tremendous weight off my mind. I don't have to leave the car at the bottom of the driveway at night only to be awakened at 4am by the plow guy asking me to come move it, get dressed and trudge down and sit and wait until he's done and then go back to bed.

    I have discovered I have named my car. His name is 'Hoichi'. Named after the tough little biwa player who plays beautiful music in Kwaidan.
  • cmunizcmuniz Member Posts: 604
    Last night I couldn't make it up my driveway with my XT for the first time this winter. Got about halfway up and it started sliding sideways. Of course we have had about 6" of snow with sleet and freezing rain on top of that so it isn't surprising that it wouldn't go up my steep, winding 200 ft driveway in the NC mountains. I still have the original tires so different tires may have made a difference since I almost made it. Now the fun of digging it out begins...I did notice that it is very easy to overpower the tires with the gas pedal so be light with the gas on slippery conditions.
  • miamixtmiamixt Member Posts: 600
    While the Weather factor will never be a problem down here in Southern Florida, we have Bugs, all kinds of Bugs, Roaches with Wings that Fly and hiss at you, some have faces. I need to get a screen for the Turbo air scoop, and as soon as possible!
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Jason- Thanks for the excellent and informative post. FYI: I put my curved Oakley sunglasses in the dash-top compartment.

    -Frank P.
  • lark6lark6 Member Posts: 2,565
    Jason: A thorough, well-written and well-detailed post; I enjoyed it very much. Yes, unfortunately I do know how rotten driving on NJ Route 17 can be. I think that we in the US have forgotten how comfortable Peugeot seats were.

    I'm finally glad to see someone is happy with the XS/XT auto climate control. Maybe dealer staffs should spend some time being trained in its use so that they can show buyers how to operate it? I know that when I bought my Forester I made the salesperson show me how all the controls worked.

    Before someone writes "RTFM" it's worth pointing out that it's often easier for people to remember how something's done if they see it used in person. This may especially be true if the manual in question has been translated from another language. I mean no ethnic slurs by stating this, but in the '00 Forester owners manual one of the troubleshooting procedures is to check for a "brown fuse." It didn't take me long to figure out this meant "blown fuse."

    Ed
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Reading the fine manual isn't near as much fun as playing with stuff although manuals can make good bedtime reading. The problem with that is that you read about some switch you want to go play with in the middle of the night. Nice reports guys.

    Steve, Host
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    Winterforce snow tires are excellent.

    This is good to know. I was wavering between studded Hankooks and the Winterforce. Will go with the latter. How much road noise?

    I originally complained about rattles in the car but discovered there weren't any.

    Sure wish I could say the same.

    The clutch is no longer so abrupt on the uptake.

    Agreed, although the pedal distance from floor to start of engagement is still on the long side. And the brake pedal needs to move too far down before the brakes start to engage, and then the brake pedal is too spongy. The brakes themselves, though, are first-rate. You're my size; do you find that the throttle is too close when you set the seat for the correct distance to fully depress the clutch?

    First is short but it doesn't annoy me nearly as much as it does Ballistic

    I'm adjusting (under protest), although unquestionably I think the car would be improved with a smaller 1st-to-2nd gap and a taller final drive.

    My big gripe is that my seat sinks over time.

    Are you sure your fanny isn't flattening over time?

    I do not like the non-switching high beam actuators. I prefer a quick pull to change from high to low.

    I like the pull-and-release to flash. How would the hi-beam flash work under your preferred scenario?

    Make a nav module for the dash compartment.

    This could be interesting, but I think I'll instead put a portable color GPS with voice prompts (Garmin and Magellan make several candidates for $500 to $900 and falling fast) on the lid, permitting one unit to move between cars.

    The hill holder clutch works great.

    The adjustment on mine seems to have become less intrusive after a few thousand miles, but as often as not I still go to neutral and just use the handbrake, as I always did before.

    The autodimming mirror doesn't dim quickly or deeply enough.

    Exactly why I think these are a waste of money. The reliability and instant-on/off aspect of manual day-night mirrors can't be equalled. IMO.

    Spend the $1.00 and put a light in the glove compartment. It's an embarassment not to have one on a car this price.

    Definitely.

    I don't have to fear snow

    These things are truly awesome in deep snow, aren't they? Far exceeded my expectations, and I don't even have studded snows yet. It makes you wonder how bad things would have to become to get a Forester with LSRD and studs stuck.

    Nice writeup.
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Steve- When I first got the XT I eagerly took the owner's manual inside for some night-time reading. However, after flipping through the first 40 or so pages and seeing nothing but caution this and danger that I quickly became discouraged. Here's a manual that's as thick as your standard paperback and I'm guessing that at least 50% of it is strictly safety related. I'm pretty sure the whole manual was written by the product liability dept ;-(

    -Frank P.
  • jason_elsjason_els Member Posts: 57
    I'm pleasantly surprised so many people liked my post! To answer a few of your questions:

    1. The Winterforce tires are NOISY and they humm so much that the rear view mirror vibrates. I'm used to it now but studs are loud no matter what you get. There is no substitute for studs where ice is involved and I believe the inconvenience is more than matched by the security in ice perforamnce.

    The Geolanders suck in snow.

    2. Always read the manual, particularly in Subarus. Subaru doesn't do everything in an obvious manner and never has. There are weird complications, oddball switch combinations, and other obscure things that are worth knowing about. While the Foresters are more obvious than the X-wing Subarus of yore with rainbows of cryptic glowing dash switches and hidden knobs, not everything is readily apparent.

    3. The clutch is actually just a hair further down than I would like when I have it fully depressed. I tried moving the seat closer but my right foot was too close to the accelerator and I didn't like being so close to the expoding steering wheel.

    I have no complaints about the uptake point and I know why. With so much torque Subaru wanted to prevent the car from lurching forward when the accelerator is depressed. Raising the uptake point makes it less likely and makes it easier it easier to slip when creep-forwared maneuvers are needed.

    Oh and let me also suggest the headlight washers!! I have to clean road sand/spray off of the rather perpendicular lenses frequently. That is on my list of spring additions along with 17" wheels (would be nice if Subaru offered some).

    Thanks again!
  • atlgaxtatlgaxt Member Posts: 501
    Hope you got your XT out with no damage. Couple of questions - Do you have MT or AT? You said you experienced 6" of snow with sleet and freezing rain. Was it packed hard with ice so that the car was on top of snow (as compared to sinking in)?.

    I am getting paranoid again. After all the great posts, you were the first to report having a problem in the snow. I know snow is not common here in Georgia, but half the reason I got the XT was to be able to get to my mountain place and enjoy it if we ever do get a decent snow.

    Unfortunately, the private roads around my place are very narrow and very steep. Now I am wondering if I should stay home if the "perfect storm" ever hits us. Or I am wondering if I should take my Mazda B4000 4x4 with more aggressive tires. I know that truck is better through streams and over rocks (It's been in about 2' of water on several occasions - not something I would try in the XT) but I just figured the XT would be better in snow and ice.
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    The Geolanders suck in snow.

    I probably shouldn't comment, because the opinions of others who live in _real_ snow country certainly count for more than mine. All I can say is that the performance of the stock Geos on my XT was nothing short of superb grinding through the 10" to 14" or so of snow topped with ice that we experienced in the steep hills of Portland recently. As the Geo's sharp new edges wear and the tread depth diminishes, I'm sure they'll be less praiseworthy (though probably still adequate for most winter needs). Thus, I do still plan to buy dedicated studded snows, even though I certainly didn't need them in the conditions we had this year.

    The clutch is actually just a hair further down than I would like when I have it fully depressed. I tried moving the seat closer but my right foot was too close to the accelerator.

    Ditto. I wish one or the other was adjustable.
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    I am getting paranoid again.

    Your XT has a limited-slip rear differential; many AWD vehicles do not. That makes a big difference. Based on my experience on the stock tires, I'd say this: If you buy a good set of dedicated snow tires (studded if that's legal where you are), I think it's reasonable to say that you'll have just about the most unstoppable, worry-free snowcar money can buy.
  • atlgaxtatlgaxt Member Posts: 501
    Which gets back to my original dilemma. Snow tires are a waste of money and effort to spend just to go up to my cabin the one time we might get real snow. But I am concerned about the stock tires on steep areas in really slick conditions. If I start sliding down a hill, I could conceivably get going 200+ feet (in elevation - longer in actual distance) down a relatively straight but very steep road. Not a pleasant thought.

    At the same time, if the north georgia mountains ever again get one of their rare snow storms (not the wimpy stuff that hits a couple of times a year and which the Subie has already done fine in) it would kill me to sit at home in Atlanta and watch it on tv. I know - I am just a big overgrown kid.
  • overtime1overtime1 Member Posts: 134
    For occasional snow-use just throw a set of chains in the car. Those will get you through anything. In fact, although I have two AWD cars I wouldn't go to Tahoe in the winter without having chains along...chances are you'll never need them but you never really know.

    overtime
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    Let me put it this way: No matter how great a car is, nothing matches true snow tires when the going gets tough - which, from your description, can be true in your Georgia mountains.

    Moreover: If you ever get icy-road conditions (as distinguished from snow), then there isn't an all-season tire in the world I'd trust on anything but flat ground (like northern Minnesota, where my wife grew up).

    I don't know how long you plan to keep your XT, but the cost of 4 wheels with dedicated snows is about $466 for me (Tirerack's Winterforce package deal, including shipping). Used only when needed (maybe a thousand miles per year) they'll easily outlast the 10-12 years I'll own the XT. That's only $40-45 per year. I think that's a very reasonable outlay for a lot of extra peace of mind.
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    ...are (IMO) an absolute last resort. They're harder to install than swapping wheels, their vibration beats your car to death (bring on the rattles!) if any of your drive is on bare roads, they tend to break and come off at the worst moments, and when they do they sometimes wrap themselves around suspension components so thoroughly that they're a bugger to get off - and they can flail around and do considerable body damage. I keep 2 pairs in the back during winter in case I encounter unexpected ice and haven't yet mounted my studded snows, but except for that rare circumstance, they stay in their plastic boxes.
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