Subaru Legacy/Outback 2005+

zman3

While I commend Subaru on improving the Legacy for the second model year, it kind of reminds me of Ford and the last generation Explorer (2000 model year?) where they redesigned some of the front end crumple zones because of poor performance in the offset frontal crash test.

These manufacturers realize these tests are going to be performed and that some people put a huge value on the results. There does not appear to be anything secretive about the tests and they should not be that hard to reproduce. Why not just design it right the first time? It's more expensive to go back and re-do it. I just don't get it. It should have been a key feature in their design specs.

Karl

ateixeira

If they did that, then they'd be designing structurs for one specific test. It doesn't necessarily mean a safer car all-around.

-juice

njswamplands

i agree with karl. taking into hand what juice said, yes you design for the all around safer vehicle but at the end of the day ya gotta test your design against the standardized test.

you know these crash test are what people are gonna read about and put into your maketing literature.

ya know that subaru has got to be thinking about the bumper basher when doing its bumpers and then trying them out with a bumper basher. why not with these standardize hi speed tests?

ateixeira

VW did an incredible simulation purely on computers.

A while back they showed the "simulated" wrecked Jetta next to the actual crashed car, it was incredible how well the simulator predicted the results of the crash test.

Subaru needs to get a hold of that software.

-juice

njswamplands

given how well vw/audi are doing on the tests....

zman3

Yeah, but they went back and did it after the fact. That was my point. They could have done it the first time, unless this recent change effects the results of other tests already performed and they are just playing a shell game with the results. I doubt that however.

zman3

I assume there is nothing special about VW's software, although I don't know that for a fact. There are several non linear finite element codes that do a good job of predicting high speed events such as car crashes. I assume every car company uses them in some form or another.

Simulating is a lot less expensive than trying to build and crash prototypes while iterating during the design cycle.

The codes have their roots back to the defense industry if I am not mistaken.

ateixeira

I studied that in Grad School, toughest course I ever took! Did it for my master's even though it was technically a PhD level course combining skills in Engineering, Computer Science, and Math/Statistics.

Any how, the amazing part was how well the simulated picture of the car matched the actual crashed car. It was mind-boggling.

These guys are good.

-juice

zman3

These guys are good.

I hear you on that one. My Masters project that I just completed used FEA, but just linear elastic stuff.

I used to work in the defense world doing high velocity impact/shock propogation simulation type stuff. There is a certain art or experience level necessary to not get total garbage out of those non linear codes.

Karl

P.S. Was the picture in color? Those are always accepted as fact.

njswamplands

mine was modeling supermarket checkout lines and creating a program to show what happens given the number and type of shoppers and checkers/baggers.

guess i should have added a cart collision and clean up in aisle 9 simulation.

zman3

Did your model show that I always pick the checkout line that takes the longest, despite being the shortest?

njswamplands

lol. checkers and baggers were all observed an assigned a speed between 1 and 10.

raybear

The first oil change is supposed to be at 3,000 miles, read the warranty booklet!

c_hunter

The first oil change is supposed to be at 3,000 miles, read the warranty booklet!

Ray, for 05+, only the H6 models have a scheduled change at 3000 miles. The Outback 2.5i and 2.5XT (and Legacy 2.5i and GT) models do not. Take a look at the maintenance schedule and it's very clear about this. If any dealer is trying to foist a 3K oil change on an Outback XT owner then they are either ignorant of the service schedule or trying to make money (probably both).

Craig

kens

Keep in mind that the 2005 Legacy did very well in other crash tests in other countries. The biggest difference with the IIHS test and others is that 1) they simulate a side impact with an SUV and 2) they use a dummy that models a very small female.

While there are some very sophisticated ways to model impacts, it goes to show how just a few inches or pounds can make all the difference. Could Subaru have predicted the outcome and made changes in advance -- maybe or maybe not.

Which then begs the question -- the 2006 models were optimized for a very focused set of conditions -- a side impact with an SUV. Will these changes now compromise a side impact with a passenger car that the 2005 model did very well against in other countries?

Ken

kevin13

FJ... I sent them a message also via email, but they didn't respond. Please let me know if you hear anything and I will do the same.
Kevin

ateixeira

That's what I meant to say, only you said it a whole lot better than I did.

-juice

zman3

I think we both actually agree with Ken. That's what I was trying to say when I said I hope they are not playing a shell game with the crash results. It would be a shame if they changed the design for this test at the expense of the other tests, knowing that those tests would not be performed again.

That is one of the problems with using test results to chracterize the performance of a car, when there are so many possible crash scenarios.

Karl

stickguy

saw a newish Legacy wagon in the parking lot so I peeked in the window. Nice looking interior. The steering wheel (3 spoke) looked good (I have a thing for 3 spoke wheels), even without radio controls!

I liked the look of the seats and the dash flowed well. Really need to free up some time to go check one out.

it would be logical to get one, since SoA headquarters is about 5 miles from where I work. They just need to open up a new franchise in Cherry Hill (supposed to be one going in) to replace the one that closed a few years back (they kept Kia in the building though, seems Subaru was too "upscale" for the Triplex).

wrxrallyer

Greetings, all!

As a long-time reader, just wanted to thank y'all for all of your insights and observations. Then again, having owned a WRX for the last four years, wasn't like i needed a lot of Subaru convincing!!

Anywho, just traded in the aforementioned WRX yesteday, and will be picking up my new ride tomorrow. Local dealer had an '05 GT Ltd, red garnet w/ the taupe interior. Apparently, they've discontinued that choice for '06. It'll probably get trashed by the kids, but i was tired of a black interior, so we'll see. Any suggestions on how to protect the seats? (other than not let the kids in???) :P

MSRP was $31,620, i got then down to $26,875, including the $2k back from Subaru. Also tossed in the subwoofer. Gave me $6875 for my WRX, which considering it has 91k miles and needs new brakes, tires, and probably some front-end work (making a funky creaking sound in the right front), guess i can't complain! Oh, it had also gotten rear-ended 3mos into it and had a crappy repair job done to it (paint flaking off the bumper, hatch cover falls off, etc.)

So, how's i do on the price?? Also, is the break-in process the same as before - varied RPMS under 4k (or at least try to!) for the first 1k miles?

Thanks in advance to all for your advice and suggestions, and my apologies if my questions are redundant!

Take care all!

ateixeira

Congrats, I think a lot of WRX owners have moved up and been quite happy w/their GTs.

-juice

era174

I've noticed some taxi drivers shifting the auto gear from D to N when they wait for signals to change at intersections.

If I do that, I'll probably do it more than 10 times whenever I drive.

Is it a safe practice?

Does it damage auto transmission eventually?

tsy

Congrat's on the GT limited. I've had mine for a year and half and still love it!

The break in is hard. Keep it under 4K for 1000 miles. I was pretty good for the first 500 miles or so, then I couldn't help it. But I only cheated a few times and never redlined it so I'm sure my engine's ok.

I've only passed 12K miles and have noticed the engine is still improving as it's breaking in.

Good luck (keeping below 4K!) enjoy your new ride!

tom

xwesx

I'm not sure if it would damage the tranny. I do this in my car just because it tends to cause an annoying vibration in the car when I leave it in D, and I have 196.5K on mine with no tranny issues. If nothing else, there's less wear on the torque converter. I'd be interested to know a definitive answer on this as well....

era174

I went to a different car mania web site and found interesting threads on boxer engines (Subaru, Porsche, etc.).

One person claims that boxer engines are prone to oil leak, especially when they get old (5 years / 100,000 km).

I searched for the recall history of legacy/outback, and Subaru indeed recalled 98-99 legacy for oil leak problems.

And one owner of 2005 Imprezza complained about oil leak as well.

Is oil leak really a common symptom of boxer engines?

era174

An AWD fan told me that AWD cars have a hidden weak point: flat tires. He's driven Audi's and Subaru's for a long time.

His main two points are:

1) When he had a flat tire, he had to change all FOUR tires because of AWD's higher wheel balancing requirements.

2) When service centers with mechanics capable of handling Subaru's AWD are far away (often the case in Canada), you're in big trouble. So, he's quite reluctant to drive AWD cars in remote areas. He says he usually drives a FWD car in that case.

I'm wondering how valid those two arguments are.

stickguy

can't say about the tires, but I would have assumed they would work like any other car.

I wouldn't worry about the mechanics, but then again, I live in NJ, so I doubt I will be too far away from someone who can handle it! But, if you are in the far boonies, don't expect to find someone who can do much with a FWD Volvo either. THe AWD pieces don't tend to break, and if they do, you are pretty much out of luck anyway.

era174

(1) Look at this amazing Audi driving up a very steep ski slope. Though it needed good snow tires, it's still awe-inspiring.

Not to wait for video streaming, please right-click on the link and save the video file on your hard disk.

Amazing Audi Video: http://auto.joins.com/upboard/pds/movie_pdst/200c5030810468_m.wmv

Can Legacy/Outback do this?

(2) The second video shows a few vehicles trying to climb up a not-too-steep ski slope.

Not to wait for video streaming, please right-click on the link and save the video file on your hard disk.

Second Video: http://auto.joins.com/upboard/pds/movie_pdst/200b4120792762_allroad-quattro.avi

Can Legacy/Outback climb up the slope like Audi in this video?

robr2

The Audi feat is a remake of an ad they did 25 years ago to showcase Quattro's capability. I've seen the new ad quite a few times.

bat1161

Congrats! A very nice choice -We liked the Red, but it's not available in the Bean model, that's why we went with the black.

They still recommend keeping it under 4K RPM for the first 1000 miles, but it is hard. We were down your way on Friday -took a trip to the aquarium in Camden while staying in Spring Lake for the weekend. Drove past SOA HQ and waved .

Once again, enjoy!

Mark

tsy

1. True, because of the AWD system there are center and rear differentials which will not tolerate large discrepancies in diameter of the wheels for a prolonged period of time. Even the limited service spare is only recommended for 50 miles.

So if you destroy one tire (which I did, actually), you either need to replace all 4 or some tire places will shave the tire so that it matches the rest.

2. I can't comment on Canada and Subaru service there. But Subaru's AWD system is quite reliable and the chances of getting stuck somewhere they can't fix it would seem unlikely. But then again, I don't know about you Canadians, maybe you drive harder.

tom

erics6

Seals are a problem on older high mileage Subaru's. I don't think it's inherent to boxer engines, just the seals Subaru uses. It's lots of fun when the front seal leaks on the exaust header heat shield... smokey and smelly!

xwesx

I know this one well.... !

In my opinion, the boxer engines are very sensitive to oil pressure and over heating. If you keep the oil at acceptable levels and respond quickly to any overheating event, they should do you well.

xwesx

It's hard to say, but if I put spikes on my Subaru like the ones on the Audi in in that second video, I'd be going places!!! :surprise:

era174

This forum is great! Thanks for all the replies to my questions. Here is another one:

I can see the SRS/Airbag logo for both Front and Curtain Airbags in my 2006 Legacy 2.5i.

But I can't find the logo for the side airbags. The side airbags are supposed to be embedded in the front seats for the 2006 model.

I'm wondering exactly where they are (in the seats).

Why didn't Subaru put any logo for them?

ateixeira

The 1.8l and 2.2l boxer engines were fine, only the EJ25 was prone to gasket issues, and even then only up until around MY02. The turbos and the H6 are also fine, so out of the many boxer engines Subaru makes only one had that issue.

So no, I would not say they are inherently prone to oil leaks.

Flat tires - get used to this, having to make sure all four tires wear evenly, that is. Stability control means all four tires have to have the same diameter, if not VSC is going to kick in constantly and fry both the brake pads and the tires.

AWD or VSC or even a good ABS system is very sensitive, so mismatched tires will be a problem for all cars soon.

-juice

ateixeira

Cool commercial, but read the fine print.

No stock Audi, rolled out of the show room, could do that, nor could any Subaru.

Audi uses studded snow tires, if anything that commercial should have been for Blizzaks or something.

Still, neat commercial that gets the point across. What you want in that situation is good side-to-side balance, and an AWD system capable of sending most of the power to the rear axle.

So, with studs, basically the Subaru Outback VDC or Tribeca ought to be able to climb that hill. I'd want stability control to make sure you're not driving off the side of the ramp.

Again, with studs, most BMWs, Mercedes, Infinitis, and Audis with AWD and stability control could do it, also.

-juice

njswamplands

tsy

I'm impressed by how strong that ski jump ramp is!

c_hunter

Look closer, the logos are there. They are "tags" sewn into the seat cover seam on the side.

Craig

erics6

I think most folks with older Subaru's (1.8 and 2.2) have seen there share of oil leaks (front/rear main seals, etc). No issues with head gaskets though.

oregonman

I love my 2005 Outback XT, but I hate the keyless remote fob. The buttons are far too easy to press. I am always locking or unlocking the car by accident. I have even had the car lock just when the keys were in my pocket and I crouched down. I saw that Subaru changed the remote for 2006 to make the keys harder to press. Anyone here have a chance to compare both 2005 and 2006 designs? Is it enough better to buy one? How much is a replacement? Is there any aftermarket remote that would work? Anyone tried one?

kronogoose

Anyone care to speculate why the 2006 GT will only be sold in Limited trim? I really liked the idea of the non-Limited model as a fast car without all of the things (leather, etc) I don't need. I noticed Subaru's doing the same thing with the Forester XT. Makes the WRX TR a little more appealing...even though I much prefer the styling of the Legacy. Next thing you know, a manual tranny won't even be offered.

Sorry if this question has been brought up before!

- Greg

alpha01

The base GT simply didnt sell in enough volume. I've only seen two ever, personally, in the NJ/Philly area, and this is SoA territory, as a bit of anecdotal evidence. Not really a business case for it, though I would personally like to see a two tier lineup- GT SE (like the 2.5i with its moonroof and standard power drivers seat) and GT Limited (leather, auto climate, upgraded instrumentation, etc).

Joe

thenorthface

I am supposed to get my new Outback in a couple of weeks... can't wait to get my hands on it.
Meanwhile i browse this exellent forum.
In Sweden we don't have the XT. We have the 2.5 and the 3.0 options and i went for the 2.5 with automatic. The automatic geared is the only one which comes with VDC.

ateixeira

The turbo engine was more in demand, so they realigned the models and moved the H6 to the more affordable models, it just happens to be on the OB instead of the Legacy GT.

-juice

c_hunter

I would like to know also. Even after I modified my 05 remote to make the buttons harder to push, it's still going off all the time when I don't intend it to. The 05 remotes were a lousy design.

I assume the 05 cars can be programmed to recognize an 06 remote?

Craig

era174

Oh my. I shouldn't have asked about flat tires. I got one! A piece of grey metal is stuck inside.

I called Subaru road assistance service and it sent a CAA (Canadian version of AAA) service person. He installed the spare tire.

Then, I called the dealer's service shop and a service rep told me to go to any tire shop. His argued my mileage is too low (210 miles) for any serious inspection or service.

Then, my salesperson called me when I was on my way to a tire shop, you know, the new Subaru rep who thought Canadian Legacy/Outback was made in Japan.

He argued some tire shops aren't familiar with AWD tires. I also wanted to know how the other tires are doing (in terms of Legacy's tire maintenance specifications). So, I stopped and went back home. I'm going to go to the dealer's service shop next Monday (Canada has a long weekend starting from Friday).

It'll be funny to see the service rep who told me to go to any tire shop. I'll keep you updated on this.

raybear

I'd dare say your local tire shop is more familiar with AWD tires than your Subaru rep is with Subaru's.

c_hunter

I think your sales guy continues to prove he's clueless. Just take it to a tire shop, where they will plug or patch the tire if possible. If not, just order a new tire of the same exact type to replace the damaged one. With only 210 miles on the car, you don't have to worry about consistent tire wear -- the tires probably still have mold lines on them!

CRaig