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Subaru Legacy/Outback 2005+

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  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I believe that's the norm.

    -juice
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    Yeah, Subaru doesn't like synthetic oil for some reason so they always suggest the use of mineral oil. I'm not sure how much of the Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt running around Subaru and its dealerships is officially supported vs. dreamed up by individuals, but the mechanical engineering community and the lubrication industry at large do not support those claims.

    Synthetic oil actually maintains its true rated weight far better than mineral oil. You do want oil to flow freely at low temperatures to avoid wear during cold start and initial running, and to not become thin during high temperature and heavy load. Synthetic oil also has lower friction which eases wear on bearings and other metal-to-metal contact areas like piston rings, cylinder walls and camshaft lobes.

    ~Colin
  • c_hunterc_hunter Member Posts: 4,487
    7500 miles is correct.
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Yeah, the "stutter" issue as it seems to be called seems to stem from ECU programming. Owners that have reprogrammed their ECUs claim that the phenomenon is lessened or removed completely.

    I think I can feel it on occasion, but it really is minor. And the effect is also lessened with a torque convertor as well.

    13.5K, 16K -- lightweights! I just pased 25K this week!

    Ken
  • c_hunterc_hunter Member Posts: 4,487
    I also just passed 25K on my OB XT.
  • cptpltcptplt Member Posts: 1,075
    dunno about the 3.0 but on my WRX I emailed SOA, they said it was ok but said once I changed I shouldn't change back (which apparently is one of those old wives tails from what I can gather). My dealer has no problems putting in Mobil 1 in my Tribeca which has the 3.0. As long as the oil is the correct API standard it should not matter.
  • garandmangarandman Member Posts: 524
    I called SOA, who said they have made no such advisory.

    I called the dealer back and spoke with someone else. He said they stock Mobil I and many of their customers use it. They are going to track down who said it and whack him around, apparently.
  • poissonpoisson Member Posts: 49
    just reached 36K miles on my '05 XT which I bought on 9/30/04 (~16 months).
  • jae2jae2 Member Posts: 7
    Thanks! Have got the carcost numbers now, getting into the buying mode. Agree with envy of border - much more transparent with lower msrps and ability to deal down to invoice.

    thanks,
  • rob_mrob_m Member Posts: 820
    13.5K, 16K -- lightweights! I just pased 25K this week

    Lightweight???? I bought mine at the end of May, 2005. That's 16k in 8 months! All my milege is just from commuting to work. I use my wife's Outback on the weekends for errands and longer trips. ;) Rob M.
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Well, THAT certainly sheds a whole new light on things!

    It's so sad that most of our miles are spent on commuting. But I wouldn't want to commute in any other vehicle!

    Ken
  • bobny11580bobny11580 Member Posts: 31
    I've swung back and forth for years about synthetic. Currently I'm back on mineral oil. I rationalize it by telling myself that I change the oil every 3,000 miles or 3 months which is above and beyond the 7,500 mile requirement. If I pay three times the price for synthetic oil I feel wasteful and uneconomic changing it every 3,000 miles. And being the obsessive compulsive that I am I must change the oil frequently.

    I've got 11,000 miles on my 2005 OB XT and have changed the oil at 3, 6, and 9,000 miles. I used synthetic
    (Mobil 1)at the 3,000 mile oil change and then went back to mineral oil for the next two changes. The dealer advised me that the switch back would be okay. Leap of faith by me.
  • tsytsy Member Posts: 1,551
    I agree with you Ken! I bought mine as a fun commuter vehicle? Who'd want to commute in a civic or a corolla? Oh, but fun is bad for gas mileage! ;)

    I did manage to get 18mpg in my last tankful trying really hard to lay off the boost. (I'm trying really hard, Rob!) But it's really hilly where I live and I never get EPA mileage on anything.

    Maybe I need a hybrid?

    Nahhh. My commute is so short I'd never reap any benefits!

    tom
  • goneskiiangoneskiian Member Posts: 381
    Having too much fun here too! I still get around 20 mpg overall though.

    FWIW - I never really noticed the supposed "stutter", but I did just have the ECU replaced under warranty a couple weeks ago (for a cooling fan that would never shut off) and the engine is noticably smoother. I'm guessing they've changed the ECU programming a bit as I also noticed they have downgraded the EPA mileage too. I believe when I bought mine they were touting 19/26 but it's now 19/24. Wouldn't have changed my mind! ;)

    Wow! Rob, you're already at 36K? Oh well, no more bumper to bumper warranty eh? I guess when that happens I'll have to get used to changing my own light bulbs! ;) :P

    As for oil changes. I considered going with synthetic but decided against it as I've got a free oil change program at the dealership I purchased from and it's every 3000 miles or so which, I gather, is rather frequent for todays motor oils. Bonus is that the dealership bumps up the drivetrain warranty to 7yrs/100K as long as I get these regular changes. We'll see if this program is still around when I get to 100K! Of course, by then I'll likely have added some go fast(er) bits like a more free flowing exhaust. :blush: :surprise: :P ;)

    Cheers!
    -Ian
  • goneskiiangoneskiian Member Posts: 381
    Sorry poisson! That was you at 36K not Rob. ;)

    That's some serious mileage!
  • rob_mrob_m Member Posts: 820
    18mpg??? Ouch. I can hit 20mpg with my old Mustang 302cid, holley 4bbl, 4 speed with overdrive on the highway. :P

    I have been averaging 22-23 consistently with the LGT. 90 miles a day round trip, 75% highway, and no traffic. I do get to drive on some twisty 2 lane backroads. That is where this car truely shows it's stuff. Rob M.
  • tsytsy Member Posts: 1,551
    Hey, 18mpg is a good tankful! Lots of up and down hills, stoplights, even my highway mileage is stop and go.

    Even though I have the least number of miles, I bet my car is the most worn out!

    Yeah, I've taken it up to the mountains a few times and love the twisties! This really is a great touring car!

    BTW, what kind of mileage to you get on your mustang racing from steeetlight to streetlight? I'm sure it's not 20mpg! ;)

    tom
  • rob_mrob_m Member Posts: 820
    Street light to street light gets me 12mpg.

    I only took it out once last summer. Not enough time to maintain it. Maybe once the novelty of the LGT wears off ....
  • poissonpoisson Member Posts: 49
    I didn't buy the warranty when I got the car and kept putting it off. I finally caved and got a 5 yr/100K from Subaru when I had 35.5K miles on the car!
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,740
    I'm surprised nobody mention (unless i missed it) the recent comparison of 7 AWD sport sedans in one of the big magazines (either R&T or C&D, i can't remember). The Subie Spec-B finished 2nd behind the Audi A4. BUT, taking price into consideration, the Subie got top honors. The field included the Mazdaspeed6, 325xi, G35x, S40 T5, and ... something else I'm not remembering.

    They did make a comment that the results probably wouldn't be much different even with the non-SpecB model.

    I thought this was a good win for Subie. I mean, toppling the media darling BMW and the always great G35 is quite the feat. Impressed me, anyway, but maybe that's not so tough to do. ;)

    Anyhooo... just thought I'd pass it along to anyone who didn't see the article.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    I saw a scan of that article too (I don't know HOW some folks get their issues so fast) and I was very impressed.

    The Spec-B held its ground against some tought competition, including the Mazadaspeed.

    Ken
  • gearhead4gearhead4 Member Posts: 122
    Go ahead and swicth back and forth all you want. That old mechnics wive's tale goes back to the 70s when early synthetic formulations had some compatability issues. This is not the case anymore.
    My 05 Legacy came with a free 3 maintenace plan, so I let them put in mineral oil.
    For my wife's '04 Camry, it has enjoyed synthetic ever since the first oil change. This car has an oil life monitor that tells me when to change the oil (based on miles driven, number of starts and stops, etc.) So the oil gets changed every 5000 to 6000 miles (about 4 months). The Camrys have had a history of oil sludging, so I figure the extra $2 per quart is worth it. (Our local Meijers has their house brand synthetic sale priced at $3.49/qt every 4 months.)
    After my Subaru maintenance plan runs out, I plan to switch to synthetic. I figure it may help the boxer suvive my bad habit of shifting to a higher gear too soon.
  • wmquanwmquan Member Posts: 1,817
    A follow-up to my earlier question on detailing the Outback.

    I said what the heck and took the plunge and used Zaino polishes. It's now easier to apply because Zaino has an accelerant that can be mixed with the polish and it dries very quickly (so it can be wiped off and, optionally, another coat applied).

    While I still don't have much time to detail the vehicles, I figured that after the initial investment, having a finish that lasts as long as Zaino or Klasse (supposedly 6-10 months) is in itself a time-saver. Also, I still had remaining mileage in the Saab's lease, so I was able to leave the new Outback XT in the garage for a few weeks. That let me put on four coats of Zaino over ten days.

    It wasn't too hard once the vehicle is clean. Wipe on Zaino Z-2 with a pad (with the ZFX accelerant mixed in). After drying, wipe off with towels (no hard buffing, just a gentle wipe). Spray on and remove Z-6 with a towel. Then repeat.

    I didn't expect Zaino to work wonders in the appearance of a silver car. I've seen incredible mirror finishes from Zaino on dark (preferrably black) cars. But it doesn't/can't improve silver too much. I'm more interested in the protection, anyway.

    But my wife and I did notice that after the Zaino, it looked even brighter than brand new. I took some photos but they don't quite do it justice (we just came off of a long rain streak in Seattle and the skies were gray).

    However, I noticed that rain beads very well, and any dirt wipes off very quickly. Now I'll have to see how long it lasts.

    http://newyorkminute.smugmug.com/photos/53539217-M.jpg

    http://newyorkminute.smugmug.com/photos/53539551-M.jpg

    http://newyorkminute.smugmug.com/photos/53539750-M.jpg

    http://newyorkminute.smugmug.com/photos/53541077-M.jpg
  • css1css1 Member Posts: 247
    I too detailed my trbeca however, with Klasse. The Klasse All-in-one applied easily but the Klasse acrylic sealent was harder to remove.

    So far the surface is much easier to keep clean.

    I would like to compare our results at 6
    months.

    Charlie
  • wmquanwmquan Member Posts: 1,817
    I'll let you know in nearly six months.

    Of course, comparing our results isn't totally valid since we probably keep our vehicles in different environments.

    That's the tough part about the debate on Zaino vs. Klasse (AIO or the acrylic sealant) vs. Zymol vs. Meguiars NXT vs. xyz. Are some going to look better after N months, are some going to protect better, are some more sensitive to some climates (e.g. rain) than others, are some more demanding of having four coats or more, etc.

    I've seen some anecdotal posts from users who claim to have used both Zaino and Klasse AIO, and found that the former protects slightly longer. However, I have no idea if everything was "apples and oranges" in their comparisons.

    There's also endless debates on Internet forums over the quality of the shine. E.g. I've read some claims that Zaino's shine is not deep and rich, just very reflective. While Klasse's acrylic sealant has a much deeper shine but isn't as reflective.

    However, I think it's quite valid to say that Klasse, Zaino, and Zymol represent some of the best detailing products you can buy.
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Nice detailing job! Silver, unfortunatley has it's trade offs. It's one of the more easier colors to keep clean, but it also doesn't wow as much after lots of detailing.

    Your XT looks fantastic!

    Ken
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    I've heard from another avid detailer that's used almost every product under the sun that Wolfgang is one sealant that makes a noticeable difference on silver.

    Ken
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Charlie,

    A few tips for Klasse HGAS:
    - use it sparingly
    - let it completely dry (about 1 hr) before buffing, the longer the easier it becomes
    - when buffing, use a slightly dampened microfiber cloth and/or a quick mist of water or QD spray to remove. Comes off like a charm everytime.

    Ken
  • wmquanwmquan Member Posts: 1,817
    Thanks for the compliment. I've never worked so much at detailing a vehicle before.

    Interesting about Wolfgang really helping silver. I've only seen passing mention of the brand. I'll have to keep that in mine when my Zaino supply runs low.

    A problem with Zaino is that it's underwhelming after one or two coats, especially given the hype. As some others have told me and I experienced for myself, around that third coat is when you see what the buzz is about. After I wiped it off, I went, "hmmmm."

    Then you can't resist putting on the fourth coat.
  • jamison13jamison13 Member Posts: 4
    0-3000 miles avg around 20.1 mpg
    3000-4500 miles avg around 22 mpg

    getting my xt broken in. 2006.

    how i've been driving to achieve 22 mph. (the gear, the rpm at shift, the range of mph)
    1st gear 3000 rpm
    2nd gear 3000 rpm up to 30 mph
    3rd gear ? rpm 30-40 mph
    4th gear ? rpm 40-60 mph
    5th gear ? rpm 60+ mph

    how do you drive your car?
  • css1css1 Member Posts: 247
    I'm using Klasse primarily as a long term protectant.

    I like the fact that a good carnuba wax can be put over the Klasse. From the spring thru fall I can deepen the gloss as needed, and if I'm too busy to wax it's ok.
  • css1css1 Member Posts: 247
    Thanks
  • tsytsy Member Posts: 1,551
    1st gear- 6600
    2nd gear- 6500 now at 60mph
    Then stop because I'm at the next red light! ;)

    Mileage? 14mpg. :surprise:

    Ok, j/k.
    1st gear, 2500-2700
    skip shift to 3rd gear, to 2200
    shift to 4th which is as far as I ever need to get in city driving. Often don't get to 4th.

    I get about 18-19mpg in the city up and down steep hills this way.

    tom
  • wmquanwmquan Member Posts: 1,817
    FWIW, here's a comparo that includes Zaino and Klasse. The results are quite close. Since the comparisons, I think the Zaino Z-2 has been "improved," and quite possibly the Klasse.

    http://www.deckowski.com/wax%20off/greatwaxoffintro.htm

    Again, I don't think you can go wrong with either product.
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    Tom, you really do skip shift going up steep hills? 2200 rpm is too low for your LGT to climb a steep hill properly, but I'm sure it can do it with a lot of stress and load if you depress the accelerator pretty far.

    Maybe I'm reading you wrong, but throttle input is more important than RPM when looking for economy or power. Just because you're below 3,000 rpm doesn't mean you're easy on the car or getting the best MPG that you can... it's all about throttle input.

    ~Colin
  • css1css1 Member Posts: 247
    Thanks for the link.

    I've heard good things about P21S. I plan to use it over the Klasse this summer.

    Charlie
  • tsytsy Member Posts: 1,551
    Nah, Colin. I'm not skip shifting to go up hills- the engine would bog. Usually it's going down hills or if it's totally flat. I actually don't know if it helps with fuel economy since my drives aren't really consistent. I've been doing it a few weeks to see if there is a trend in improved mileage.

    I got the idea from the Corvette- which makes you skip shift 1-4 for mileage. Of course, the LS 6 engine has a little more displacement than mine. :D

    I'm basically trying to lay off my turbo- so I agree that the less throttle input is what would actually help mileage.
  • fj60fj60 Member Posts: 28
    Just curious . . . what's the best method for maximum acceleration for a manual GT without damaging the tranny? Do you pop the clutch at a certain RPM?

    FJ60
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    here's a fairly aggressive method that is all I would recommend for anyone with a hint of mechanical sympathy and a desire to keep their car out of the shop.

    rev to 3k rpm. keep the throttle even, do not flutter it.
    - do not drop the clutch. -
    let the clutch out quickly but PAUSE when it begins to engage for about 1 second.
    during that brief pause, mash the accelerator to the floor.
    the vehicle will start taking off-- don't let this distract you; after the brief pause make very sure that you release the clutch the rest of the way.

    this is a quick slip. if you drop the clutch, you'll probably bog at low RPM and you'll tear stuff up if you repeatedly do it at high RPM. a quick slip is the fastest (somewhat) safe way to launch an AWD car. for some cars, you need a bit more than 3k rpm--maybe 4,000-- but the 2.5L turbo is making great torque by then.

    have fun. if you smell clutch burning, you've slipped it too much. :)

    ~Colin
  • garandmangarandman Member Posts: 524
    Go ahead and swicth back and forth all you want. That old mechnics wive's tale goes back to the 70s when early synthetic formulations had some compatability issues. This is not the case anymore.
    My 05 Legacy came with a free 3 maintenace plan, so I let them put in mineral oil.


    From SOA:

    Yes, you can use synthetic oil in your Subaru. If you do use synthetic oil, we would recommend that you always use it in your engine because your engine will become accustomed to it. The same goes if you decide to use 'regular' oil.

    Synthetic oils can be used in our engines if the user follows the engine oil recommendations prescribed in the owner's manual. Subaru has not tested the compatibility of all syntthetic oils with engine seals, but the petroleum industry does adhere to standards for refining process which meet Subaru requirements. Subaru does not guarantee the performance of any brand of engine oil.

    Engine oil guidelines: - only use engine oil that meets or exceeds API classification designated in the Owner's Manual for the vehicle. - only use engine oil that meets the VISCOSITY requirements for the ambient temperatures under which the vehicle will be operated as outlined in the Owner's Manual - THE ENGINE OIL MUST BE CHANGED AT INTERVALS SPECIFIED IN THE WARRANTY AND MAINTENANCE BOOKLET FOR THE VEHICLE. SOME SYNTHETIC OIL REFINERS RECOMMEND EXTENDED OIL CHANGE INTERVALS SUBARU DOES NOT RECOMMEND DEVIATION FROM THE SPECIFIED INTERVALS IN THE OWNER'S MANUAL.

    Thank you blah blah blah...

    John J. Mergan
    Subaru of America Inc.
  • zman3zman3 Member Posts: 857
    we would recommend that you always use it in your engine because your engine will become accustomed to it.

    What the heck does that mean? Become accustomed to it? Seems to me that this needs to be defined in more technical terms.
  • samiam_68samiam_68 Member Posts: 775
    At higher mileage (30-40K and above) switching from dino to synthetic is not recommended. This is due to the fact that dino leaves a build-up on the seals which alters their elasticity. Synthetic oil will clean out this sludge residue and some seals might start leaking.

    On the other hand, you can switch from synthetic to dino anytime.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Actually, I have heard not to use synthetic in newer vehicles because it can adversely affect motor break-in. In the past, I have changed from dino to synthetic at about 30k. "Higher mileage" is more like 80-100k, and as I have recently learned, the "higher mileage" oils you see on the shelf are partial synthetics, with an additive package that is designed to be more compatible with older seals and gaskets. In essence, its not "higher mileage" as much as "older vehicles."
    It is more the opposite, where once you go Syn, you shouldn't go back to dino. Dino isn't as slippery, and there are rumors of people spinning a bearing because of increased friction in the motor.
    In the past, I changed to synthetic because of increased demands on the vehicle (towing, racing). In regular driving, I don't know that there is a huge advantage over dino, even factoring in the fuel savings (picked up ~2 mpg).
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    You don't want synthetic oil on a truly brand-new motor; it is so slick it could adversely affect the time it takes for your piston rings to seat and a smooth wear pattern to form on the camshaft lobes.

    Not one third-party piston ring or camshaft manufacturer will endorse the use of synthetics during initial running-in.

    However..

    All that magic happens within a few hours of operation (for race motors)-- most definitely by 1,000 miles of use. My Evo came with Mobil1 10w30 from the factory. I drained it the first night I had it home and put in Castrol GTX 10w30 and then at 1,000 miles changed the filter and went back to Mobil1 10w30.

    Did it matter? That's hard to tell, but after rebuilding many dirtbike and musclecar engines, I'm really sure what the best way is to break in an engine and I followed it. Honestly-- I bet things would be just fine if I left the factory-filled Mobil1 in for the first thousand miles.

    ~Colin
  • zman3zman3 Member Posts: 857
    Honestly-- I bet things would be just fine if I left the factory-filled Mobil1 in for the first thousand miles.

    I would hope so since that is what 99% of the owners would do.

    Karl
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    Not 99% of Evo owners. :) But yes, I know I was being a nut.

    ~Colin
  • riposteriposte Member Posts: 160
    You said: "You don't want synthetic oil on a truly brand-new motor; it is so slick it could adversely affect the time it takes for your piston rings to seat and a smooth wear pattern to form on the camshaft lobes."

    Better not tell the following manufacturers; they ship their cars out of the factory with Mobil1:

    # Aston Martin
    # Bentley Amage and Bentley GT
    # Cadillac CTS, XLR, SRX and STS
    # Chevrolet Corvette
    # Dodge Viper
    # Mercedes-Benz AMG vehicles
    # Mercedes SLR
    # Mitsubishi EVO
    # Pontiac GTO
    # All Porsche vehicles
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Maybe something more like "not wanting synthetic oil in a brand new mass produced engine that isn't put together by hand in very limited quantities, or an engine that is designed with inadequate cooling from the factory facilitating the need for a synthetic fluid"
    When you are only making a very limited number of engines and using exotic materials, the break in might actually be done at the factory. You can guess which ones are which.
  • c_hunterc_hunter Member Posts: 4,487
    That is true -- some engines are broken in at the factory (AMG hand builts, for instance), in which case there would be no issue putting M1 in right away if you wanted. You just don't want to put it in a totally green engine that needs a normal break-in procedure.
  • garandmangarandman Member Posts: 524
    What the heck does that mean? Become accustomed to it? Seems to me that this needs to be defined in more technical terms.
    Well, ya see, the oil and the engine hang around with each other, have coffee, go to the movies.

    I'm just pointing out that's the pronouncement I got from SOA.

    I put Mobil I in at the 3,000 mile change.
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