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BMW 3.0CS
I am interested in getting a 72 BMW 3.0CSI or CS.
I am not mechanically inclined, and I was
wondering if it is feasible for a person such as
myself to keep such an old car that would be likely
to need frequent repairs. How difficult would it
be to find a competent mechanic for this car? (I
live in the San Francisco Bay Area). How expensive
would the repairs be? Are parts for this car
expensive and hard to find? (I would imagine so.)
Would it be likely to break down frequently?
I know very little about these issues. I would
greatly appreciate feedback from those who have
experience is keeping older Bimmers. Thanks!!
I am not mechanically inclined, and I was
wondering if it is feasible for a person such as
myself to keep such an old car that would be likely
to need frequent repairs. How difficult would it
be to find a competent mechanic for this car? (I
live in the San Francisco Bay Area). How expensive
would the repairs be? Are parts for this car
expensive and hard to find? (I would imagine so.)
Would it be likely to break down frequently?
I know very little about these issues. I would
greatly appreciate feedback from those who have
experience is keeping older Bimmers. Thanks!!
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Comments
They are quite sturdy and living in the Bay Area offers you lots of talented people to take care of this car.
Your major difficulties with this car will be
a) detection of rust....it's THERE, believe me, either hidden or obvious, so when you shop for this type of car be sure you find out where it is or was and how it was fixed (bondo, welding, replacement panels). Any car with rust on the front strut tower supports or rear suspension pinnings should be rejected out of hand. You will also find rust in the lower doors, rocker panels, and rear quarter panels behind the rear wheels.
b) coping with dreadful carburetors. Whatever you have on that engine, if they aren't Webers (a conversion) you'll have erratic idling and stumbling on acceleration. So think about this type of conversion and the cost involved.
c) possible overheating. In the Bay Area, this is not such an issue, but having the radiator cleaned out thoroughly and all new hoses put on would be a very good idea.
Parts are not outrageous, if we're talking about mechanical parts. I'm sure body parts and trim would cost and arm and a leg because at this point in time there's only two ways to get such parts...re-make them (expensive) or find someone who's been hoarding them (also expensive).
Last of all, keep in mind that the market for these coupes is not very strong, in fact quite stagnant. Some proud owners are rather unrealistic about their real value, but in fact anywhere from $8,500 to $12,000 should buy very , very nice cars. If you pay more than that, it will be a decade before you can resell at those higher prices...I'm not sure why exactly the price of these lovely cars is so depressed, but the facts are quite clear on the matter, so shop wisely.
other than routine maintainence, what else do they require (over another other BMW)?
I'm not sure why the car isn't stronger in the collector market...it's kind of catch-22...no one wants to spend a lot on the cars because they don't bring big money, and yet the only way to bring big money is to have increased interest from collectors in the first place.
I think they'll come up in time, though.
does that sound right? what should I ask about (other than the usual)? where should I check for rust?
a side note: wouldn't Weber's give better performance than the stock Bimmer carb's.
Rust appears everywhere, but certainly in the rockers, front quarters where the fenders meet the door, rear quarters and top of the shock towers in the engine compartment. Also put the car on a lift...if there's rust where the suspension in attached to the body, walk away from the car.
webers may or may not increase performance--they don't always, or sometimes they do but at a big cost in fuel consumption. With MGs for instance, using Webers over SUs gives you a gain of maybe 4 horsepower at the very high rpm limit...hardly worth the trouble for all the expense.
In the case of the 3.0s Solexes or Zeniths or whatever the hell is on there, the use of Webers improves the driveability and reliability, which is not a problem with SUs.
1973 3.0CSi Malaga (what color is this?)/ dk.blue leather. 4speed, 70K miles, PW, extensive work to motor/drivetrain, body and interior; car is OEM except Nardi wheel(!!) and Blaupunkt/MDQuart stereo; 99% rust free; "fastidious owner who painfully must seel a rar, beautiful and 'hastle free' coupe. over $25k invested; $15,000."
SOUND GOOD???
So I'd say a very close chassis inspection and some dickering on the price is in order on this one, and it would be interesting to know as well where that $25K investment went exactly. I presume the owner is including what he/she paid for the car in that $25K.
Certainly worth checking out.
where that $25K investment went exactly. I presume the owner is including what he/she paid for the car in that $25K. "
i would think so...
the info on the rust is helpfull...
the only problem is that the owner is near me, but the car is not...so it might be a pain to see
what can be done to ameliorate this problem??? Undercoating, constant high pressure washes of the undercarriage?
it has had two main modifications (for the better it seems) (1) It had an engine rebuild and the owner put in Schrick cam and Weber carb's with K&N air filters...
have you heard of a Schrick cam, I plan on asking a BMW expert when I go look at the car.
(2) fat sway bars and new springs. The fat sway bars sound good...it will surely tighten up the handling and it's good to know the springs are new and not sagging from age...(right?)
I have seen pictures of this one and it looks in very good condition... again the rust issue I will check out...
There's no stopping rust once it's in there, and if it's a 3.0CS it's in there somewhere...the only possible exception would be a car that was preserved in a hothouse somewhere or a car that was "stripped and dipped" ...with the formerly rusted body being dunked in a hot tank...even that causes problems, since the solvents get trapped in the body and can leak out onto the newly restored chassis and paint.
As for the modifications you mentioned, they sound great, although this is a car you'd want to drive first...sometimes if the springs and sway bar bushing are the unforgiving type, you can get a great handling but miserable-riding car.
ah...can one buy any classic car without having to have such trouble?! I dont mind the extra maintanence a classic requires, its the idea that the car will rust no matter what I do...
But what you do is what all 3.0CS owners do...just keep cutting it out and fixing it as it appears...sometimes you can find a car where it's pretty localized...bottom of door frames and front and rear quarters are most likely...if you can find one where it hasn't attacked the suspension points (where suspension meets body), you're better off than most 3.0 owners...just grind and fill, grind and fill every couple of years...no big deal, really, since the car is going to be a driver anyway. In the UK, they treat rust like we treat oil changes, they're used to it. In the US collectors are rust-pansies.
So I guess what I'm saying is that there is "rust" as in surface or "cosmetic" rust, and then there is "structural rust", which is deadly and to be avoided at all costs.
If you can remove all the totally oxidized material prior to each application, that helps. A sandblaster is best, but that requires that the parts be accessible and that you have access to such a tool. Failing that, a wire brush is ok; preferably powered, but even just reaching into a door panel or rocker panel and scrubbing it with a hand brush is better than nothing.
If you can get at both sides of the rust spot, obviously that's going to make a big difference, but again, if only one side is accessible, that's still a lot better than doing nothing.
PS
I have a serious weakness for 3.0 CS's. Maybe you can find one on the net that's spent its whole life in the desert southwest. If that happens all you have to do is move to where the car is (you wouldn't want to move such a car into a salty, wet environment) and install a late-model BMW 5-speed. And you gotta give me a ride.
I know where there's one in Boulder, Colorado that's pretty good...been sitting for a few years, minor rust only, blue, stickshift, sun roof, ran pretty well last time I drove it...e-mail me if interested...it'll be $5K or less...I think you could drag it home and make a car out of it.
Again, the csi was never legally imported. Any in the U.S. are gray market. Beware the difficulty in finding fuel injection parts and the mentioned rust demons. Regarding rust, there is not much you can do. Karmann (as in Karmann-Ghia) is a specialty coach works in Germany, and they hand assembled all of the 3.0 cs's for BMW. There was not rust proofing used by Karmann, and the interior seams and panels (the way they are formed) tend to trap water, thus as water sits in the cavities, it rusts the car from the inside out. Best to avoid any East Coast cars, unless it was never driven in rain and snow. The salt doesn't help things! Best to find a southwest/west coast car. My coupe, even though in California its whole life, had some minor cosmetic rust. It is just part of the deal in owning a coupe. But it is worthwhile. I am sorry I sold mine. I loved it. It is one of the most beautifully designed automibiles (in my opinion at least). Timeless lines. A couple of suggestions.....Join the BMW CS Register if you are seriously interested in buying a coupe. I belonged to it when I had my coupe and there are lots of classified ads of members selling their cars (beside great tech tips and articles). Many of the member cars are fanatically maintained. The CS Register has a web site too, though I do not remember it. Check out the BMWNA web site. There may be a link. Also call Carl Nelson at LaJolla Independent BMW (San Diego). He specializes in coupes and is involved in the CS Register and the Coupefest each year at the Monterey Historic races. He probably has leads on a good car. Also try Peter Sliskovich "The Coupe King". He's a Dr. in S.Calif who restores coupes and sells them. He's a good guy and reputable and has the best cars you'll see at Coupefest. Hope your search is fruitful!
The national web-site is: www.bmwcca.org/
There was a shop in Gilroy that specialized in Coupes. May still be there.
Although I moved to Nevada a few years ago, I have maintained my membership affiliation with the GGC.
Back issues of the Roundel will be available on CD soon. Major information source.
I've owned at least one BMW continuously since my first one in 1970. They are addictive.
There is an independent BMW magazine on the magazine rack at B&N.
Earlier post about the Schrick cam.
I did a search on +BMW +Schrick and found hits at Korman Autoworks. A big name in the American world of BMWs: www.kormanfastbmw.com/
You can find more information on these racing cams.
They advised to look for the cleanest car available and pay the extra buck because all BMW trim, badges, chrome etc. is very expensive ( badges $125 !!).
With all this bad news why even consider this car? Find a reasonably clean example and take it for a spin.
After researching this car I have decided that some time in my life I will own a 3.0cs and restore it to make sure it wont rust. That would involve complete rustproofing and all that stuff. The car is so beautiful that its worth the work. I cant drive a car, though, that I would have to constantly fix rust. In my case coating the frame and sheetmetal would be necessary; a large job I fear...the only question is am I ready for the work now? Unfortunately, I dont think so...
If you eventually do get a 3.0cs, do make sure it was a southern/western car its whole life and that when you do get it that someone else has spent the dollars before you to get rid of the rust and paint the car (unless you want to do the work to make sure it is done right). I was just seriously considering buying another 3.0cs from Florida as I was heading there anyway recently on vacation. Great body and interior (from photos sent), but it looked tired under the hood. As he wanted a lot of money for the car, I expected that it would be perfect for that price. Decided not to see the car when I actually went there. When I get into another coupe, it is going to have to be virtually perfect (I guess I'm tired of sinking money into projects). Best to let someone else do the work sometimes. It may cost more up front for the car, but you have to spend less money over time and the overall savings could be worth it.
So in spite of some worthy features, it's the kind of car you'll get buried in...at least a coupe, you could bail out more easily and recoup some of your expenses.
Of course, there is always that "old retired couple" 3.0 sedan with 60,000 original miles and complete service records for $1,500 that we all dream about....in that case, sure, go for it.
The biggest snag, aside from the rust issue, is that this is a 1970s BMW, and as such it's not going to thrive in sub-zero weather and it's not going to be a good snow car, either. Then, too, the car is complex and repairs and parts are relatively expensive, say compared to an MBG, which is cheap to own and simple to fix. Of course, an MGB isn't a swell winter car either.
As was mentioned above, you will be buried in the car financially, with no hope of profiting or even breaking even when it comes times to sell. It's not going to be as reliable as a Porsche SC either.
Had you thought perhaps of a 1967-72 Saab 96 V-4. Very funky and fun styling, extremely rugged, and great in snow...also cheap to buy. Or a 544 Volvo humpback? Or what about a Porsche SC? They can be had in decent condition within the 12.5K range, which is about asking price for a restored 3.0CS, and really it's a much better car overall for a newcomer to tackle.
My dad would like the Volvo 544 idea but its not that sporty, ditto with the Saab.
We now are looking into BMW 325iX's as a compromise between performance desires and practicality. Obviously this is not a classic but if I can not find a classic car that fits me its the only other choice.
I see your point about the 911, yes, although driving an old BMW may elicit a similar response, I don't know. Hard to predict. I guess I just don't see a 3.0CS as an everyday car. They tend to overheat, the carbs are a nuisance in hot weather, etc, whereas the 911 is dead-reliable.
See if you can find a Volvo 544 and drive it. You may be surprised, and you will definitely have the coolest car around.
MR.Shiftright,
I found a perfect 3.0cs in California and am thinking of a cross country venture back to New York in the car.
It seems nicely priced for the condition of the car and the work the owner put into it.
The car is pictured at this site:
http://www.laserpoint.net/BMW/
check it out and tell me what you think...
I guess about all I could advise is looking over the body very carefully for rust/bondo/welding, and getting some documentation on this "rebuilt engine". If it isn't documented, I would not presume it is true. This doesn't mean the engine is no good, but only that you should judge it and treat it as an old used engine, not presume it is rebuilt like the guy says. To many people, "rebuilt" is when you take the head off...to me, "rebuilt" means "returned to factory spec in all particulars".
Looks from here like a very nice car, but give it a good lookover. As the saying goes "an old German car can eat money like a whale eats krill."
easy to get misty-eyed.
However, unless you find the proverbial
time capsule vehicle for $5,000 stay away
from them. Run, don't walk.
If the car has significant visible rust,
don't buy it. If you buy any CS without
having it put on a lift and given a thorough
investigation with rocker covers removed
and all rugs pulled out you should
be institutionalized.
All cars designed in the late 60's were
rust buckets and 3.0CS is one of the worst
offenders.
If you are looking for a classic car,
either buy a "divorce car" of a particular
type and model, or, buy a "great deal" -
whatever that car may be - TR-7, MGB, Alfa,
Fiat, BMW, etc.
Dollar for dollar, driving vs. posing,
substance vs. image, the BMW E3 sedans are
a far better value than the coupes.
Marty
71 2800CS