Ford Mustang (2005 and Newer)

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  • john_324john_324 Member Posts: 974
    ...this weekend and do they look good. Ford's really done a good job with this iteration of the Mustang. Now, these were V6 convertibles, right? I seem to recall someone saying that the V8s aren't out yet? :confuse:
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    I also qualified for Ford X plan. I bought my totally loaded Mustang GT for ~$25.5K.

    I've seen where others have been able to use X-Plan on a new Mustang GT as well and I'm glad to see you were able to work it out too.

    I mention this because I visited a local Ford lot yesterday morning to see the only two GT convertibles around, both had a $6000 "market adjustment" invoice tacked on to the window sticker, and was greeted by a salesman for that dealership no less! We got to talking and he informed me that Ford itself was not accepting the X-Plan pins (I qualify for both Ford X-Plan and GM partner discounts too) for the '05 Mustang at all. This is not true. According to the Ford Partner site the Mustang is not excluded from X-Plan pricing at this time. Now individual dealers do have the right to restrict based on supply and demand so if you are told by one that they won't honor it keep looking I say. You're bound to find one that will honor it somewhere down the road. Hopefully not too far though. ;)
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    The IRS is superior on the GTO Solid rear axle was a cost cutting move by Ford. Read this from car and drivers comparo on Mustang vs GTO....

    ......The Mustang's rear end did occasionally step out on imperfect pavement. Despite Ford's best efforts, the convulsions from under the back seat haven't been completely cured, and there's a slightly disconcerting hop when you encounter a midcorner bump. It's not likely to send you spinning off into someone's geraniums, but the GTO's independent rear end exhibited no such spasms over the same roads....
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    High depreciation on a new car also makes for a GREAT used car buy too! Besides, ALL new cars even the 2005 Mustang will depreciate, give it a few yrs. Honda's-Toyotas seem to hold their value the best. Even they depreciate.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,140
    gunit....I've test driven the '04 GTO and the '05 version. I've got about 1,000 miles on my Mustang GT. I can say from personal experience, that I have not felt, nor seen any advantage of the GTO's IRS when compared to the Mustang GT's solid axle. IF amything, the Mustang feels much "lighter on it's feet" than the GTO. I've experienced no "side-stepping" on brutally winter pock-marked OH roads with the Mustang either. The Mustang has a very goo buttoned down suspension, period.

    No doubt, a used GTO would make a hell of a used car bargain. But, anyone who has or will be buying a new one will be faced with some very steep depreciation hits.

    The Mustang, on the other hand, is holding MSRP and above. At least the GTs (what I have) and the convertibles are scarce to boot. At some point, it's reasonable to think that the production will catch up to the demand. I don't think you'll see that any time soon, however. I posted a link last week regarding a story where dealers are going to auctions to buy USED GTs. Dealer's are offering MSRP on USED GTs.......AND STILL NOT BIDDING HIGH ENOUGH to get them. Dealers are pushing customers off until the '06 MY to get their Mustangs. Matter of fact, my dealer is totally sold out of their '05 allotment. They have a waiting list that has their entire first 3 months of allotment sold out for the '06 MY Mustang GTs and convertibles.

    If this keeps up, then the '05 AND '06 models will hold their value very well.

    One local dealer bought 3 used Mustang GT's, stripped, from an auction. They sold all of them in one day at new MSRP....with over 1,000 miles on all the odometers.

    I was fortunate to get X plan on my Mustang. I placed my order during one of the worst winters in recent memory around here, during a snow storm. I doubt I could make that same deal today.

    Ford offers X plan availability on any of their cars/trucks. I think the only exceptions are some of their heavy duty F-150s. It's up to the dealer whether they want to offer any of the Ford discount plans on any vehicle. It's the dealer's call whether to comply with Ford discount plans.....not Ford Corporate.
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  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,140
    john....Mustang GT convertibles are being produced. Like all the GTs, they are a tough find since they are sold either before they hit the dealer's lot or shortly thereafter.
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  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    The bottom line is that all new cars depreciate, yes even the new Mustang. Give it some time. I would never personally pay MSRP for a car, esp. one with 1000 miles on it already. But to each their own. One Ford dealer by me has had a silver V8 2005 on it's lot for nearly 3 weeks in a row now. Still sitting there. Just passed it before. Maybe they have it priced too high.

    Car and Driver said the Mustang exhibited the old side step on rough roads where as the GTO did not on same roads! As for steering, C&D said the GTO steered better and was more fun to drive. They said the Mustangs steering was too quick and light feeling and understeered way more then GTO. This is Car and Driver's report, not mine. As for braking, both cars were about the same. 167 ft for GTo and 170ft for Stang from 70mph.

    X plan sounds nice, I got the GM employee discount on my 2005 GTO, otherwise I wouldn't have bought it. I do NOT wait for cars or pay MSRP.

    I went more for the GTO because of the Corvette engine and IRS and it's a car that not many people own, low production! , only 12k will sell for 2005 where as in the next year you will be seeing Mustangs all over the place. 12k GTOs vs 190k Mustangs.

    In the future the GTO has more of a chance of being worth more vs much lower production, possibly, One can never tell.

    For every GTO you will see 15 Mustangs, LOL! As for looks they are subjective. I like the looks on the GTO, it doesn' draw too much attention.
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    I like the looks on the GTO, it doesn' draw too much attention.

    That's just it. It doesn't draw any attention. Though the main reason people buy performance cars is for performance, a good portion of it is also to be noticed. :shades:
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,140
    gunit....drive your car and enjoy it. The best way to keep away from the depreciation "hit" on it is to drive it a good long time and put a ton of miles on it.

    My guess is the Mustang GT you're seeing has a very large "addendum" price (well over MSRP) the dealer is asking for it. That's the only way I can see it sitting for that long. That said, I've seen some crazy prices on '05 GT and convertible Mustangs and they are still selling.

    I won't repeat what I've already experienced between the IRS of the GTO and the solid rear of the Mustang. I've already relayed my personal test drive and ownership experience on several occasions. While I subscribe to C&D, I disagree with them as much as I agree with their assessments. In this situation, obviously my experiences are different than their's regarding the Mustang.

    The GTO's shifter to me was very rubbery. Mustang's felt very positive in comparison. GTO's brakes felt spongy compared to the solid feel of the Mustang's brakes.

    I won't get into the styling of either car except to say I much prefer the Mustang's looks, both inside and outside, over the GTO's. I guess the marketplace agrees.

    It's true. Not many own GTOs, so from that perspective, there is some exclusivity.

    I wouldn't be willing to bet any money that the GTO's worth being more than the Mustang's down the road based on the sales numbers and rebate level GM has had to use to move GTO's....and the sales numbers (and exclusivity), sale prices of the Mustang in GT and convertible guise.

    All that still doesn't make the GTO a bad car, however.

    In Cincinnati, I've seen exactly one GTO on the street. I've seen probably 20-30 of them on dealer's lots since I was shopping for a car, though (both '04s and '05s). I've seen exactly 2 Mustang GT's around here on the street....one of them is mine. I'm sure there are more, but I've seen 6 total GTs. One black one on the street. Mine (redfire). I saw a white GT come off the delivery truck this weekend (don't know if it was already sold or not, though). And the 3 used ones at the dealer who sold them the same day as used cars for MSRP. I know there are more out there. I just haven't seen them.
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  • canddmeyercanddmeyer Member Posts: 410
    Since this has been asked twice, here is your answer: Texas. I believe the same plant now makes pickups. Current Impala's are from Canada. Just the same, enjoy what u got. I hope to be in a Mustang soon.

    http://www.impalasuperstore.com/naisso/resource/resource28.asp</a
  • ss67ss67 Member Posts: 12
    Clearly the supply of '05 GTs in the U.S. is creating frustration.

    Here in Canada we have no such problem. No consolation for potential GT buyers in U.S., but dealers here in Ontario have numerous '05 GTs in inventory ready for delivery.

    One dealer that I'm talking to about a GT Coupe has 36 GTs in stock and 4 GT rags in stock. And further, the dealership is willing to negotiate on MSRP. If I were to order a '06 GT, then I would get the dealer's first order slot and delivery in late August/early September.

    Seems high fuel prices (about $1/litre, or C$4.50/gal for premium fuel) and RWD is keeping demand in check north of the border. That's fine, all the better for me!

    One question to the group - what does the Interior Upgrade Package (IUP) include as compared to the Interior Sport Package?
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    I have to disagree with the GTO Not drawing any attention. I have arleady had several people at traffic lights and parking lots come up to me asking me about the Goat. Where as in my GTP or my I30t knowone cared, LOL! I bought it more for the performance and driving which it does a great job just like the Mustang. can't go wrong with either car. The cool thing is that most people don't realize the Goat has 400hp Vette engine under it's hood. Sometimes cars like the Mustang draw the WRONG kind of attention, I know from having a vette yrs ago. Everyone wanting to race you etc... Cops are watching you more too.
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    Sales don't indicate one car is better then another. If that was the case, the Accord/camry/Taurus would be the best cars in the world, LOL! Furthermore the Mustang starts at $13k cheaper then GTO, so it will still outsell it. There is only a max of 18k GTO's GM can sell regardless of how well it sold.

    As for exteriors, I agree the Mustang looks better, but as for interiors the GTO is better/higher quality in my opinion. Esp. the seats. More comfortable car for a long trip in my opinion. Consumer Reports and car and driver said the GTO interior was more upscalethen mustang and CR said the Mustang interior had some low rent cheap materials in it. Though they said it was still the BEST mustang interior.

    As for transmission I went with the AUTOMATIC, BTW the GTO automatic is the same or faster then the GTO manual. I don't care to shift esp in in north Jersey up here, bad traffic.
  • brushbanditbrushbandit Member Posts: 33
    The GTO does draw attention, people who are car enthusiast do double, triple, and quadruple looks at the GTO because they know what it is and you they don't see alot of them. I like the understated looks of the GTO. I could have bought a Mustang GT and opted for the GTO. I am in my early 40's and honestly I would have felt a little rediculous in the Mustang. I get enough mid life crises comments with the GTO. Retro gets old quick and the "industrial arts interior" wasn't for me. Rental car looks with Corvette drivetrain and great seats is just for me.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,140
    Hey....as I said before, if you like your cars, great. You won't hear me denigrate what you drive. I just stated my compare/contrast process and the resulting choice.

    Personally, I think it's a shame that GM botched the GTO. Whether the reason was price, styling, shifter, brakes, etc. my personal opinion was the Mustang was a better car for less money...for all the reasons I stated previously. It's built well and looks great, to boot. But, that's me.

    I do believe Pontiac made a critical mistake in having the GTO come only one way....only option is the manual trans or automatic version. The Mustang is highly configurable. If you don't care about leather seats, aluminum dash, color configurable guages, upgraded stereos, trip computer, etc, you can get a stripped GT (which really isn't stripped at all) for an MSRP near $25K. All the performance bits are still there. That's a whopping ~$8K difference from the MSRP of the GTO.

    Further, the same Mustang platform, which in Shelby guise will go head-to-head with the Z06 'vette, will be coming out towards the end of next year.

    Ford has committed to BOSS and Bullitt versions, too. There's a lot of speculation about what those might be, but Ford is being quite tight lipped about them. Speculation is that those versions will come in at less than $30K.

    That means there will be a performance Mustang up and down the price and configuration range that will satisfy a broad range of customers.

    I think if Pontiac had two versions, at least....one loaded (as they are now) and one version that gets rid of the leather seats, high zoot stereo, etc for around $25K, they may have had a better shot at selling a few more. I still don't think it would have met GM's sales targets, but it probably would have given it a shot at being around in the future.

    brush....I'm in my 40s. Don't feel ridiculous at all in the Mustang GT. Actually, I feel giddy every time I drive it. Personally, the styling of the Mustang, while having some retro cues, is a very modern iteration of the Mustang and it won't be mistaken for anything but a Mustang. MY OPINION of the GTO was....it looks like a version of the 90s era Grand Prix, which looks like a '90s version of the Grand AM, which looks like a bigger version of a '90s era Sunfire, which looks like a smaller '90s version of the Bonneville. That was/is a recipe for sales disaster, which is what we're seeing now.

    I saw a sketch of what might have been an '07 GTO in one of the trade rags before GM put the ZETA platform on ice. It borrowed heavily from the GTO's heyday years (mid-late '60s). That sketch, if it was really going to be a version of the '07 GTO, would have gone a long way towards re-establishing the GTO. But, it's not to be.

    But, I've gotten way off track. This is the Mustang thread.....not a GTO thread.

    ss...I've heard various reports of Canadian dealers perhaps having better stock than the dealers in the U.S. Quick question, if your dealers have '05 GT stock, why order an '06 (can't order them yet, just stand in line and wait)? I can promise you there will be a price increase for the '06s and they'll be essentially the same as the '05s.

    The ISAP option was brought about because Ford coudln't keep up production of the IUP option. The ISAP has a leather steering wheel with aluminum accents and a leather shifter.

    The IUP has the ISAP features, plus aluminum dash, 6 guage cluster, My Color configurable guages, aluminum vent inserts, aluminum door handles and door scuff plates, charcoal door panel inserts and a computerized message center.
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  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    As for renta car looks, actually the Mustang is a true rent a car, Budget, Avis etc rent Mustang and Mustang Convertibles, already saw the new 2005's in their lot for rent.

    Where as KNOWONE rents a GTO. I wonder how many of the Mustangs sales are to to flleets and renta car company's? That will drop the value as well.

    Retro is ok. Looks are subjective. Pretty soon you will be seeing Mustangs as frequently as Camry's and Accords. To me that kind of ruins the appeal of the Mustang.

    12,000 GTO's or 180,000 Mustangs. I like the Crossfire too, only about 10k or 12k made a year too.
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    I would NOT buy a first year Stang either, wait for the 2nd yr, in case any problems arise. Never buy a FIRST year car. I have burned on many first yr cars....

    Don't forget there is a higher end version and lower end version of the GTO in Austrailia that we don't get here. The Holden Monaro sells very well in Austrailia. GM only offered 1 fully loaded trim here to make it easaier to import and build on the line down under. Don't forget GTO is low production car like Crossfire, etc.

    GM did NOT advertise the GTO, don't know why. They are spending millions advertising the G6 constantly as a performance sedan that only has 200hp, LOL! When the Competition has 240 to 260hp, LOL!

    The GTO does NOT look anyway like a Sunfire or Bonneville. More like a Grand Prix which is a good thing. GP of 1997 to 2003 was Pontiacs best looking car in those years. Minimal cladding etc. I owned 2 coupes, '97 and '02 GTP, very nice and got a lot of looks.

    GTO caters to an older higher income crowd as well. I have already driven past the high school parking lot in my town and seen about 3 or 4 2005 Mustangs already. Where as NO GTO's. Mustang caters to a lower income younger crowd.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Ford is seriously curtailing fleet rental car sales specifically because it's hurting resale values. However, you will always see some mustangs (especially convertibles) because those are premium rentals. They also rent Jag Stypes and Lincoln LS' for the same reason. A few won't hurt as long as it doesn't get to Taurus proportions.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,140
    GM probably would have been better off if they did offer the GTO to AVIS as a rental car. Maybe they would have been able to hit their sales target.

    Ford has stated clearly that fleet sales are being curtailed. I can see evidence of this already since I rent from Hertz for business at least 3 times a month. You'll find plenty of Tauri and Foci, but aside from a few V6 'Stangs, you won't find much in the way of Mustangs on the Hertz lot....a few, not many.

    Sales of Mustangs (dealers already sold out of at least their GT allotments) and the selling price of those same Mustangs (which is close to MSRP or above) is a good indication of their future value. I don't have a crystal ball, but I think the current Mustang climate bodes quite well for them to hold their value, at least through the first part of the '06 MY.

    GTO future value? Well, GM is offering leftover '04s for right around $9K off of MSRP. They've already started rebating the '05s. Can't hit the modest sales goals for the GTO. Probably no models past the '06 MY (and that may be in jeopardy, too). Doesn't look good from where I sit as far as retaining value.

    Sad thing is, you won't be seeing any new GTOs at all in the near future.

    I hope I see the new Mustangs everywhere before long. That means it's been a success (but we already know that it's probably the most successful product launch we've seen in a long time). More models to come. More development will continue as it evolves.

    The question I have for you, why do you keep coming into the Mustang forum if you're a GTO fan? Wouldn't you be better served in the GTO forum? Why do you feel you have to justify your purchase to the Mustang crowd?

    It doesn't matter to me what you drive.
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  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    A lot of the Mustang rentals have always been V6 models, I don't consider that a PREMIUM car. Esp the V6 Stang
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,140
    akirby....that's one of the reasons I like renting from Hertz. Since I rent so much, they always upgrade me to an LS or a Towncar at no additional charge. They've upgraded me to a Jag a couple of times. They treat me well.
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  • ss67ss67 Member Posts: 12
    graphicguy - thanks for your response on the IUP vs. ISAP. Confirms my preference to get the IUP.

    Reason for possibly ordering a '06 rather than taking delivery of an in-stock '05 - I'm looking for a Sonic Blue with 5 speed manual & IUP. Even though dealer has 35 GTs in-stock, does not have the specific car I want so I'm at a decision point - order a '06 GT the way I want, take an in-stock Sonic Blue with ISAP (not IUP) or take another in-stock GT with IUP but in another colour. Or take an in-stock Sonic Blue with IUP but with cloth seats (no leather).

    I'm also curious about waiting for a Bullit version, but suspect that this would be a mid-2006 model year release and, realistically, how much faster and better handling would it be? Possibly the Bullit version will be more appearance package than technically improved...
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    You could argue about the coupes but the convertibles are definitely premium rentals even if they're V6s.
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    Mustang, Tauraus, Camry, Accord, all a dime a dozen. I do not care for common cars. The resale value on your stang will be just as bad as previous ones, give it time. Japanese cars have best resale values. Certain percentage of those Stang cars are fleet renta car sales, already seen many by me.

    I commented here because of your erroneous statements on the Mustang being better then the GTO, sorry but Car and Driver disagrees with you saying the GTO has better steering, better interior and was overall the better car and was more fun to drive.

    You keep going on and on about the Mustangs brakes being better, yet in C&D test the GTO outbraked your stang from 70mph to 0! It beat in all performance tests. Only reason Stang won overall was the looks dept. You do realize that C&D got 130 angry letters over that test. 128 of the agnry ones were why they picked Mustang! FOrd has also heavily advertised the Stang where GM has done nothing with GTO. Sorry, Graphicguy, but there is more to a car then looks. Retro kind of cries out that Ford couldn't think of a nice new design, so they decided to modernize an old design. That idea already bombed with the Tbird. They got lucky here. Stang has always been a good seller. GTO has already been compared to cars costing twice its price including Mercedes/Bmw. Never be done with a Stang. If I recall MOtor Trend or C&D tested a GTO against Mercedes and picked GTO winner.

    YOu can't compare the 2 cars here. GTO is for older higher income crowd. Mustang is for the masses. That is why it starts at only $19k.

    The reason why GTO is $5k more then Mustang? 100 extra hp, better build quality, betteri interior, Independent Rear. Corvette drivetrain! You are getting same drivetrain from a car that STARTS at $45k, to me that is the ultimate bargain, more so then a Stang.

    Ford cust cut the mustang with a solid rear. I would never pay nearly $30k for a car with a Solid rear, LOL! yes all the mags, including CR, C&D etc said that GTO's rear suspension much more smooth less bumpy then Mustangs.

    Nor would I EVER pay MSRP for a car either. Cars are disposble and depcreiate, if you think your mustang is an investement or worth $$, it's not! Good luck finding it with the other 20 parked in the same parking lot, LOL!
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    Again, there is NOTHING premium about a V6 Mustang Convertible and it's crude unrefined V6.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I suggest we refrain from further GTO comments. This is pointless.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,140
    ss...you're welcome. I undestand your decision. Can't speak for you, but if you've got time on your side, get exactly what you want. I don't know that the '06 GTs are going to be any easier to come by than the '05s are, but at least you'll be one of the first in line for one.

    gunit....your strong protestations tell me that you may be a little envious of the Mustang....particularly since you seem to want to post so much in the Mustang forum. That tells me you have more than just a passing interest in the Mustang.

    Needless to say, when I was shopping both the GTO and the Mustang, I didn't see the performance advantages that the 100 extra HP the GTO was supposed to gain over the Mustang. Nor, did I see the better build you purport that the GTO has. Better interior? I'm mighty pleased with the Mustang's interior....better than that of the GTO. I never even remotely mistaked the GTO's interior with that of a BMW or Benz (and I've owned my share of BMWs).

    The GTO is SUPPOSED to be for the older, higher income crowd? Really? Hey, if stating that makes you feel better in your automotive choice, more power to you. I'm older (40ish) and in that higher income crowd you allude to.

    I can't drive car mag reviews. But, since you brought it up, the Mustang has universally garnered praise from the press. And yes, the comparos I've seen choose the Mustang GT over the GTO....if that's your "thing".

    While I'm not allowed to quote from other media sources because of Edmunds rules, since we're here, these are some excerpts regarding what they have to say about the Mustang.....

    "The handling and steering feel are so impressive, in fact, that several road test editors that drove the car back-to-back with the new '05 Corvette felt that while the 'Vette is a bit faster in terms of actual performance numbers, the Mustang is actually more fun to drive.

    Settle into the thickly padded and extremely supportive high-back bucket seat, adjust the leather and aluminum steering wheel to the perfect height and survey your surroundings. Two large chrome-plated bezels in the dash place the speedo and tach front and center, right where they need to be. Despite the car's high beltline and sloping rear window, visibility is still excellent, and the broad expanse of aluminum trim makes you feel like the pilot of a full-tilt racer. Twist the key and the V8 snarls to life, and oh, what a sound it is. Ford somehow managed to duplicate the rippling growl of an aftermarket exhaust system without the resonance and annoying staccato those systems are known for.

    Once the car is rolling, it's an absolute blast. The steering feel is perfectly balanced and heavy enough to offer excellent feedback and confidence-inspiring control. The suspension felt nimble and tight (my note....there's no mention here of the Mustang's solid rear....just that it's "nimble and tight").

    The overall design and build quality of the interior are outstanding.

    The clutch pedal is smooth and light without feeling soft or numb. In fact, the clutch is so silky and easy to feel that we didn't mind driving the car in bumper-to-bumper L.A. rush-hour traffic. Now that's a strong statement. The shifter is equally excellent.

    If there is such a thing as a fountain of youth, this is it. Any true American iron enthusiast will feel like they're a kid living in the glory days of the late '60s muscle car wars all over again. The best part is, the 2005 Mustang doesn't ask you to sacrifice comfort or reliability in the name of speed and style. You get top-notch handling, a roomy and stylish interior, 300 rip-snorting horsepower and loads of attitude, all for about the same price as a sensible Honda Accord."

    Obviously, I agree with Edmunds.

    Again, why are you posting over here?
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  • lassen54lassen54 Member Posts: 7
    If these forums are any indication of popularity, then it's obvious the Mustang is a BIG hit when compared to the Pontiac GTO...just compare the number of messages in these forums (Ford Mustang - Pontiac GTO). The introduction of the new Mustang reminds me of when the GTO was first introduced many years ago and was credited for starting the muscle car era...I find it interesting that GTO owners try to jusify their purchases in a Mustang forum. The new Mustang has created some excitement with the public and it's obvious that Ford has hit a home run!
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    I commented here because of your erroneous statements on the Mustang being better then the GTO, sorry but Car and Driver disagrees with you saying the GTO has better steering, better interior and was overall the better car and was more fun to drive.

    Overall the better car? Doesn't the winner of the comparo get that honor?

    You keep going on and on about the Mustangs brakes being better, yet in C&D test the GTO outbraked your stang from 70mph to 0! It beat in all performance tests.

    Might want to check the latter claim again. The Mustang did win a couple of handling tests. Here's the link to the results.

    The reason why GTO is $5k more then Mustang? 100 extra hp, better build quality, betteri interior, Independent Rear. Corvette drivetrain! You are getting same drivetrain from a car that STARTS at $45k, to me that is the ultimate bargain, more so then a Stang.

    Yeah, that Vette drivetrain is really something. Look at the transmission scores from your beloved C&D comparison. From what's written in the article GM seems to have hooked a great motor up to a bunch of slop.

    If you ask me the Mustang and GTO are not comparable due to price differences. When a Mustang SE hits the lots, and if it is priced closer to the GTO, then we can compare. Rumor has it the Shelby GT500 will be priced between $35k and $39k. But that thing is going to make the GTO look like a [non-permissible content removed] cat on the track. You can bet on that! ;)
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    gunit, you seem to have a lot of anger/resentment toward the Mustang. There's no need for that. The Mustang is a hit and the GTO is a miss. It's as simple as that. That's not to say that the GTO isn't a great car. There have been countless "great" cars throughout automotive history that fell through the cracks, unnoticed. The GTO will take its place alongside those.

    And please don't try to justify it with the "social class" fluff you're trying to push. I'm not a part of the "younger crowd" you reference, and my tax bracket, (un)fortunately, says that I'm not a part of the "lower income crowd", either. If one was to actually research it, they'd probably find that the Mustang and GTO have the same demographic of buyers, whether they're aimed at the same demograph or not. Keep in mind, a loaded GT Premium (which seems to be the biggest draw right now) pushes $30K, and virtually nobody is getting one for less than MSRP. That isn't exactly "young crowd/lower income" money. As a matter of fact, I had an older gentleman approach me in a parking lot and asked if he could take a look inside my GT because he wants to get one. He was driving a Cadillac DTS and said he was, if I recall, 62 years old. He wanted a weekend playtoy, which is what it is for me as well. It hasn't seen rain yet and, if I can avoid it, it never will. And I doubt I will even drive it at night in the spring/summer because of the bugs. I haven't even had to wash it yet and I've had it for four and a half months.

    Finally, I don't normally do [non-permissible content removed]-for-tat in these forums, and I don't have any beef with you, but since you brought it up; good luck finding your GTO parked with the oceans of other jelly bean shaped cars. Were it not for that huge badge on the fenders, the average person would drive/walk by a GTO and not even know/notice it.

    The Mustang appeals to all ages. Just yesterday, I was leaving my neighborhood and this kid, no more than 7 or 8, was screaming, pointing and yelling, "Cool! Check out that cool ride!" That same old guy or that same young kid would look at a GTO and think it was just another car. Frankly, most people don't want to spend well over $30K for "just another car."

    I also find it strange that the "older", "higher income" folks that buy the GTO want to get rebates and special buying plans on the GTO, yet the "younger", "lower income" crowd are willing to pay MSRP+ for Mustangs. That's some odd logic, wouldn't you agree? I mean, these "younger, lower income" crowds should be wanting to get the most off that they can, yet they're going for the most expensive Mustangs while the higher class GTO buyers want discounts. :confuse: I just don't get it.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,140
    I would imagine the next posts will be about how everyone in the media is conspiring against the GTO.

    It's a conspiracy, I tell 'ya.....Ford has paid everyone at Edmunds, C&D, etc to pick the Mustang over the GTO.

    Truth is, 2 years from now, there will be 100s of thousands of current platform Mustangs on the road, in many different configurations. Pontiac (if there still is a Pontiac around) will still be pushing G6s. GTOs will be nowhere to be found in the new car showrooms (unless they are once again, leftovers from the previous model year).

    I do agree with one thing, in a couple of years, used GTOs will be a bargain because the model line was discontinued by GM and they all will have been discounted into oblivion.

    Moving on....you guys are right, there's really no sense in keeping this debate going. We know where the Mustang is going (onward and upward). We also know where the GTO is going (nowhere).

    Regarding the attention the Mustang gets, I've been stopped by young and old(er) alike....while at the gas station, while stopped at a red light, while going to the grocery. This car has appeal that is multi-generational....across all social/economic stair steps.
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  • ClairesClaires Member Posts: 1,219
    But, I've gotten way off track. This is the Mustang thread.....not a GTO thread.

    Good point :-) A Mustang vs. GTO discussion has been opened for those of you who want to compare and contrast these two cars. In this topic, let's narrow things back down to the original discussion of Ford Mustang (2005+).

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  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    I'm leaning pretty much 100% toward getting a Whipple supercharger kit for my '05 GT. Question is, when will they "get the lead out" and get it on the market already??! Also what is a good mileage before supercharging? I have just under 2500 miles now.
  • mschmalmschmal Member Posts: 1,757
    Hey guys if anyone else has access to Automotive News, there was a recent article about used 2005 Mustangs selling for over new car sticker price. Clearly depreciation isn't that big of a problem.

    Also someone was getting flamed because they stated that rental car companies considered v6 stang covertibles premuim rentals. The flamer apparently thought this was the posters opinion. DUH the poster was stating what the rental companies think about the v6 convertable. IF you don't think its a premium rental go complain to avis and keep your flames to yourself.

    Simple Fact remains that Mustang is one of the most recognized auto brands in the world and Ford should get the credit it deserves for the current model.

    When was the last time a single Auto Brand won BOTH North American Truck of the Year and North American Car of the Year in the same YEAR?

    2005 Ford Mustang and 2005 Ford Escape Hybrid won these 2 awards.

    2005 Mustang was also a Car and Driver 10 Best.

    Anyone else know of other awards? Has the GTO won any awards?

    Mark
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    What a used 2005 mustang will be worth in 3 years depends on what the new mustangs are selling for at that time. If they're giving huge incentives that will lower the cost of a new mustang which will in turn cause used values to drop.

    You can't really base it on current demand or selling price. I paid about $1500 over invoice for my Lincoln LS in 99. By 2004 they were going for about $6K - $8K UNDER invoice due to incentives.

    I don't expect that to happen to the mustang, but I'm sure prices will get back to normal ($500 over invoice) within the next year or so.
  • fresherfresher Member Posts: 1
    Look at the Ford mustang power specification
    4.0L V6 210HP@5250 and 240 lb-ft@3500

    Going to look at the infiniti G35
    3.5L V6 280HP@6499 and 270 lb-ft@4800

    The ford capacity more than infiniti 0.5L but the HP less than 70HP and torque less than 30 lb-ft.

    These information very clear what car is really performance car.
  • seminole_kevseminole_kev Member Posts: 1,696
    Now go look at MSRP of those two cars.

    (Hint -
    base Infiniti G35 MSRP of $33,150
    base V6 Mustang MSRP of $19,770

    Not quite apples to apples I'd say.)
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,140
    akirby....you are referring to this article....

    http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=102118

    While I don't expect Mustang mania to continue for the entire model run, I suspect it will be with us a good long while, yet.

    In other Mustang sites, it's pretty common knowledge that Ford has enough orders, right now, to continue it's GT and convertible '05 build out for the entire run. Most dealers are now pushing their customers for GTs and verts into the '06 MY. My dealer has stated that he's totally sold out of his '06 allotment for the first 3 months of the '06 MY. All this coming hot on the heels of the spring/summer buying season, when sports cars sell their best.

    Based on all of that, and the fact that Ford has already had one price increase, and probably another one for '06s coming, I'd say resale value looks good. The GTs and convertibles, at least, will continue to sell at MSRP (which shows how well Ford got the pricing right out of the box) based on that demand.

    It will cool eventually. But I don't think that's something that will happen until next winter, when sales of sports cars/coupes will drop a bit.
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  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,140
    That comparison between the G35 at 2.5X the price of a Mustang V6 really isn't a valid comparison for all the obvious reasons.

    But, I think the dealers that should really be worried are those that are selling 350Zs. Getting a like for like, equipment level between a 350Z vs a Mustang GT, really puts the 350Z at a disadvantage, pricewise.

    The Mustang GT outperforms the 350z. Looks better. And, with a 350Z Touring coming in at roughly $33k-$34K vs a loaded Mustang GT coming in at roughly $27K-$28K, the 350Z becomes a hard sale.

    Further, if you really want to compare like for like, take that same loaded Mustang GT, at that same $27K-$28K and compare numbers to the G35c at $33K-$34K.

    G35c 0-60 is 6.1 secs
    Mustang GT 0-60 is 4.9 secs

    1/4 mile times, braking distances are similarly skewed in the Mustang GTs favor.....for $6K-$7K less.
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  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,762
    Ouch. Graphicguy, you KNOW i have to contest the "GT looks better than 350Z" statement. The GT is good looking, but the 350 is downright beautiful.

    Oh, and, I'm not sure where the 0-60 numbers come from, but C&D got 5.2 when they first tested it and 5.1 when run against the GTO. Their first test of the G35c turned up 6.0. Of course, this makes no sense since their test of the sedan (with more weight and 20 less horses, mind you) turned up 5.9. But, whatever, its splitting hairs because, yes, the GT is still faster no matter how you slice it, but that should be expected with 1.1 liters more displacement and 2 more cylinders.

    Which, actually, just shows how good the V6 is since, in 350Z disguise, comes within a few tenths of the GT in the 0-60 sprint, and within a half second in the quarter mile. So, between these 2, it would come down to the driver more than anything else. Of course, if a back seat is your thing ....

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,140
    q....my appologies....I forgot that you just bought a Z.

    I retract everything I posted.
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  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,762
    oh, well, no need to be THAT drastic. :)

    It brings up an interesting question, though. Do you think the majority of folks would cross-shop the 350 and GT? I'm thinking no. There are the die-hard Ford fans and the die-hard Nissan (and anything Japanese) fans. They never seem to give the other side another thought. I've yet to see any mention of Mustangs on the dedicated Z sites. And I wouldn't be surprised if the same holds true for the Mustang sites. The GTO/GT is a much better discussion. ;)

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,140
    I agree......probably no cross shopping between the Z and the Mustang. For that matter, I doubt anyone who would be interested in a Z, RX8, Audi TT, etc would cross shop the Mustang. I'm one of the few (very few) that have crossed over that imaginary line.

    GTO/GT discussion is fun....heated, but fun nonetheless. I'll let it cool down for a while before I jump back in since the only things I'm seeing are people using the same tired stuff, repeating themselves. These two have been cross shopped to death. Clearly, the Mustang has been overwhelmingly crowned the winner of the fight by both the media and the marketplace (who is the ultimate judge). Although, I don't see many crossing from the GM side to the Ford side, and vice versa (as it should be).

    As dead as the F-bodies have been, the Ford/GM rivalry is still very much alive. I guess I've fallen on the Ford side of things with the RX8 and now, the Mustang GT, although that certainly wasn't intentional.

    Hopefully, Chrysler can throw their hat back into that ring with the upcoming Charger. But, they run the risk of sullying the Charger legacy by putting 4-doors and an automatic tranny only as part of the package.

    Lutz, already made the mistake of putting a great engine into a mediocre package with the GTO. Of course, he's been relieved of his duties for that glaring faux pas, as well as many others.

    Other than that, the Mustang GT will be alone in the segment in short order since the GTO is going away.

    The next big fight will be the Shelby vs the Corvette. That should be a good one, too.

    I think it will be intersting to see where Nissan takes the Z and where Mazda takes the RX8 (two most likely competitors). Will the RX get 300 HP as has been rumored (under the name of RX7)? Will Nissan slap some sort of forced induction on the Z to bump it up even more?

    What I do know, aside from those that have fallen by the wayside (Toyota not bringing out a Supra/dumping the MR & Celica, Honda staying on the sidelines for the most part, GTO falling flat), this is probably one of the most exciting times to be a sports car fan, of all stripes, than any time in recent memory.
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  • pumpkinfishpumpkinfish Member Posts: 61
    I actually cross-shopped the RX-8, 350z, Mustang GT and Caddy CTS (wife really wanted CTS). The 350z was out almost instantly due to the rear seat, or lack of one...lol! We liked the looks second best, Mustang the best.

    I was really pushing for RX-8 but dealer wouldn't budge on a left over '04. I liked the RX-8's sophistication and technology. Wife was so-so about the car.

    After driving the Mustang there was no comparision between that and Caddy. Wife fell in love with the power and exhaust sound so it was an easy decision ;) The only problem is her always trying to drive it and leaving me with the Pathfinder. If I only would have bought the AAR Cuda when I had a chance a couple years back I wouldn't mind so much :P
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,140
    That's quite a cross shopping list.

    True, the RX8 is a great car. I had one for almost 2 years until some crazy rear ended it with a Dodge RAM.

    But, comparing the CTS and the Mustang is kind of Apples and Kumquats.

    I thought there were some really good deals on leftover '04 RX8s. Matter of fact, for most of the '04 model year, the RX8s were in relative short supply. It seems like towards the end of the model year, Mazda must have decided to up production and dumped a lot of them on the dealers as I see tons of them on the dealers lots. I'm surprised you couldn't make a deal on one of them.

    Oooohhhhh, a 'Cuda. That would have been too sweet.

    I suppose you have to give the wife some credit regarding her choice of the Mustang, though.

    Went to pick up a Mustang keychain from my dealer last night (as part of the deal, but was out of stock when delivered).

    My salesperson was just finishing up a deal from a guy who had ordered a GT in January (he couldn't believe mine came in before his). His trade? A 2001 BMW 330i.
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  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,762
    I would also most definitely cross-shop the Mustang with the Z, but that's because I have no brand favorite (never owned 2 vehicles from the same manufacturer). And I could have gotten a GT for about the same as I paid for my slightly used Z. However, I knew about the waiting lists and there was no way I was going to pay MSRP for a Ford. I apologize to all those who did, but its just my bias at this point (and, really, there's nobody to blame for that but Ford).

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    So if they made the MSRP $5K higher and gave you a $5K discount, that would be a good deal?

    I remember back in 1989 when I bought a new 1990 Accord - the year before they were selling for around $14,000 which was close to MSRP. The new models had a $17K MSRP but were selling for $14,300. They raised the MSRP by almost $3K but didn't change the selling price. The difference was people thought they were getting a better deal even though they were actually paying $300 more than the year before.

    Perception is reality.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,762
    I hear what you're saying and, normally, I'd agree. But, in this case, its not that I want discounts, its that I anticipate they will overproduce and be forced to discount. Then, as a result, resale will be in the usual toilet. We covered this here a while back, so I don't want to bring up the argument again. All I can say is "we will see what happens." I don't care about the discounts, I care about resale. All I know is what has happened in the past, and the past dictates that those who pay MSRP for a Ford (or Chevy/Lincoln/Caddy/Volvo/etc) suffer more depreciation than those who wait for the inevitable discounting.

    Honestly, I hope they prove me wrong.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    Why do people buy cars based on resale? If you've made the decision that you want to buy a new car, it should be based on it being a car that you like and want to enjoy, not how much you can get for it down the road. Let's face it, if you've made the decision to buy another car when you already have one that's running fine and still meets your needs, you've made a bad financial choice.

    So, people, stop worrying about how much you can get for it later on! Just enjoy your cars! If you've had a joyful, troublefree ownership experience, then it was worth every penny you spent.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,762
    because if you are like me, you enjoy cars ... period. And that means drooling over everything that turns your head. Reading edmunds nonstop while you are supposed to be working. And wanting to own and enjoy as many cars as possible.

    Financially good decisions and passion do not necessarily go hand in hand. If a car does have horrible resale, then why not wait a year and pick up a slightly used one at a tremendous discount? Now THERE is a good financial choice. Buying a NEW car is hardly ever a good decision. I take resale into account so as to minimize that bad decision as much as I can.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

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