I've always had a policy of not buying a car model in first year after a major upgrade because of concern about design and assembly bugs that need to be worked out. This one is quite extensive. What has been Toyota's past record with major upgrades? I need to get new vehicle in next few months and like the Avalon.
Bought a 2000 avalon, new model change over, still have it, 80,000. Best car I have ever owned. Including Mercedes E320 and Cadillac deville that I own. Had a 95 that I bought new, sold it with 95,000 miles to a friend of my mechanic. Never had a problem, My mechanic told me last week the guy still has the 95 with over 300,000 miles on the original engine.
There appears to be (passenger) side a reduction in foot placement by the angle of the right side panel. The drivers side appears to have a blocked out area on the left reducing foot placement. I don't own an Avalon but I do have a 1999 Camry which does not have any encroachments.
I have to say I'm disappointed with the styling of this car. The current Avalon has such a classic look to it, whereas this one seems to be moving toward the bloated-gas-bag look of the current Maxima. Not an improvement, IMHO. The interior does look very nice though; I am not a fan of the current Avalon dashboard.
Also, what's with the 280 hp? I thought Toyota was of the philosophy that building a better all-around car, not blowing the doors off the competitors, was the most important thing.
As I have always said, those who read and post here will be the FIRST to know. What can you say - WOW !! Who needs a Lexus.. 280 hp. Are they kidding? The only question is going to be price. Is this a $30k basic car, or, maybe $38k with the extras. It would be a bargain either way. Thanks to all for the links and pics. Toyota seems to have another winner....
My bet is that torque steer probably won't be an issue. Toyota is aware of the issue with the Altima/Maxima, and hopefully they've used their engineering expertise to design this car correctly from the start. That said, even the peak torque figure of 260 occurs up pretty far on the tach- 4700 RPM.. the engine seems to have a very Honda aspect to it.
One thing I certainly wasnt aware of until hitting the links above was that this is a variant of the 4.0L V6 first debuted in the Runner. (That engine is a longer stroke, obviously tuned for impressive downlow torque... about 283 foot pounds around 3600 RPM, I believe)
I think sales of Lexus ES 330 could suffer as potential customers will look at this car as a better alternative at a lower price. Wonder if Toyota thought about that. I see absolutely no reason to buy the ES over this.
The 2005 appears to provide a substantial footrest for the driver's left foot. On my 2003 the footrest is black; the footrest may have been omitted for the 2005 photo, or is the same color as the rest of the interior.
Unfortunately the link from pmcb48 no longer works.. Other Pics are interesting..
Footwells. I've seen the same thing on other cars that squeeze more interior room within the wheelbase. The wheel wells protrude more on the front passengers. Guess you can't get something for nothing. I find this particularly annoying on the passenger side where tall passengers sit at a slight angle.
Posts on price.. Don't know about the rest of you, but a base of 30K plus (compared to $25K for the 2004 would turn me off Quick.
I think sales of Lexus ES 330 could suffer as potential customers will look at this car as a better alternative at a lower price. Wonder if Toyota thought about that. I see absolutely no reason to buy the ES over this.
Perhaps the way Toyota adressed that issue is with the 4 different Avalon trims. Someone who can't afford ES330 for $36,000 may go for Avalon XL for, say, $27,000. On the other hand, the Limited could easily exceed the ES330 price, which could be justified by the car's size and power. Then there are also Touring and XLS in between. So, yes, it would be interesting to see how all 4 trims will be priced.
I tried the link, and it still works. Might be your ISP, or web browser. I piggyback Cox on top of AOL; some sites I can't get to from inside AOL, but I can using Internet Explorer (from Cox) off the desktop shortcut. Type the address in manually. Sorry about the computer (off-topic) advice!
Very impressive. Is this the advance internal Toyota brochure? Just 5 days ago the salesperson at my local dealer claimed not to know anything about the 2005 Avalon, and denied interest in knowing what I had found out. Sounds like I was being stonewalled. Looks to be well worth the wait.
Seems from the photos that the outside mirrors does not fold. I hope I'm wrong - it's an important thing for such a large car (biggest Toyota/Lexus ever!).
I like the interior, but would prefer the wood to be a little darker. It's way too light.
About the 280 hp and FWD - I wonder what Toyota can do about torque steer better than all other car manufacturers. We'll have to wait and see.
I give credit for Toyota for staying with a cassette player option, unlike most other competitors - and unlike their own Corolla. Cassette is not important for many of us, but for some others (me included) which still have hundreds of recorded cassettes, this can be a selling point!
The Avalon and the current generation ES330 will overlap by only about 18 months. The next ES is due by end of Summer 2006, as an '07 model. But rumor has it that Toyota might intro the next Camry and ES in the Spring, as they've done recently with (for example) redesigns of the Corolla and Sienna. Toyota is not one to allow its best sellers to languish, especially at the cost of market share or significantly increasing incentives.
This car have more hp than we all think of 270hp. Look much better, and more power than Ford 500, Buick LaCrosse, and Maxima. I like the rear more than the front, it had the BMW 7 series without it height. What does it mean by New LOW-FRICTION cylinder head and DUAL VVT-i, is it something new in auto maker like Acura SH-Awd. Does anyone know when toyota Crown will debute, I believing it's selling in Europe. This will shakes It competitors
Transmissions issues with the ES 330 (see the ES330 forum) have kept me from buying that car. Does anyone know if the specs for the Avalon are the same transmission?
My initial impression of the pics is mixed. I liked the interior a lot - the exterior, however, is pretty standard. The mark X or whatever it was posted a few weeks ago looked a lot nicer to me. I especially was hoping for square exhaust tips rather than the round...
Regardless of the price and relative values of the avalon and es330, i think the es330 will continue to sell because many people want an L on the hood rather than a t. In addition, lexus service is simply in a different league (that, of course, you pay for).
Sorry to burst your bubble folks but this 2005 Avalon looks pitiful. Just pitiful! This car looks like a bloated log with styling cues from GM's dust bin (circa 1992). The car has no personality. Period!
The interior looks equally bland. Frankly, the current model, inside and out, is more appealing than this blue collar heap of junk. It seems instead of auto designs evolving they appear to be regressing. Toyota, give it up, it is time to outsource your car designs. My 2-1/2 cents.
Interesting comment about "personality". I guess we all have our own criteria for choosing a car. I'm looking for comfort, reliability, performance, durability, safety, etc. and haven't quite figured out exactly what "personality" a car should have. Granted, minivans don't do much for me but beyond that, beauty is too damned subjective to rate a car on. In any case, the new Avalon is exactly what I've been waiting for and I'll have one custom ordered as soon as the dealers get the price lists and I can negotiate a decent deal.
I can't imagine how you can call a design pitiful from looking at rough color drawings. They aren't pictures or very good artist renditions. You can tell just the basics of the design, ie. general headlight shape, bumper shape & opening, door cutouts, rear light shape. From those pics you can't tell what any contours on the panels will be, or really anything else.
I'll reserve judgement until I actually see real pictures and better yet the actual car in person.
There has been much talk about how "cutting edge" and "daring" the "retro" look of the Chrysler 300 is; it certainly has attracted a wide range of buyers. I sat in one (300C) at a recent auto show, and was appalled at the plasticky, inferior quality of the materials. That plus what I know about Chrysler reliability (and lack thereof) will keep me away. Buy zowie, "exciting" style if you wish, but quality, comfort, and reliability trump it in my book every time, including the "excitement" of being towed in for service. I'm with ednovak; if the 2005 Avalon is "pitiful", then so am I. Guess you think the LS430 styling is pitiful, too. I'll probably be ordering a Limited Avalon; with my luck the dealers won't be inclined to haggle on those, just like they didn't on the Sienna XLE Limited.
ednovak, maxhonda, and pmcb. Pmcb especially, I share your opinion on the 300C. Its interior is nowhere near where it should be for $38,000. I am also dumbfounded that people rant on about the Hemi engine- theres no technology! Who the heck cares about a hemispherical combustion chamber? Now, the displacement on demand isnt a bad idea, but at the end of the day, it doesnt do all that much for MPG. Perhaps thats a concept that needs to be more fully realized. The 300C, IMO, will be much like most of Chrysler's initially unique vehicles.....much talked about but eventually not all that much of a seller (Prowler), or a seller, but only with big old rebates (PT Cruiser).
bwia, you're welcome to pass the next Avalon by. I personally think the styling, inside and out, is a very tasteful evolution of the current vehicles themes. And to reiterate max's comment, I havent actually seen a real picture of the exterior, only drawings, and the picture of the interior looks great. I am less than thrilled by the heavy utilization of the aluminum look, but its still a very attractive design, and I wonder if that dash will be the same for all the models.
I don't think Toyota is going to have a hard time getting MSRP for this one for at least 8 months after introduction, if marketing does a good job (as they did with the leaps-and-bounds-better than-its-predecessor Sienna).
Good luck! It took me a while to get my hands on my XLE Limited and it was quite frustrating trying to get dealers to go down. If the Avalon is like that, I'll just go to the ES330 or Camry or Accord.
But I highly doubt they will do that. It's an Avalon. Not much people step on and grab each other for an Avalon.
"Not much people step on and grab each other for an Avalon."
Did many people do this for the previous Sienna? Hardly, and yet Toyota still took price on those vehicles (sold at MSRP and/or above) for the better part of a year after launch in March 2003.
Ok...besides the Malibu Classic that is probably parked in your parking space, what would you consider to be a well executed design that is currently on the market?
We have been doing so much research at Clemson on the Pkg. Science career field and there are COUNTLESS jobs available.
I thought about interning with BMW in Greer, SC, which is about one hour from where I live.
Back to the Avalon....
For some reason, Toyota LOVES putting mudguards on cars here in the SouthEast region (the distributors) and thus MANY of the 2nd gen Avalons had those. For some reason those cars look a lot better with the flaps.
But I think overall, the 1st gen with the facelift (98-99)look GREAT.
I think Toyota had a hit on their hands then.
Also, did anyone see that Alloy wheels are now standard and that the bench seat and column shift are now deleted.
I am dying to see what they do with the Sport and Limited models.
I hope after I get this degree (Lord help me) that I am able to afford something like the new Avalon...but then again, the Camry, Altima, Accord and Passat will be out by then.
One thing is for sure, if I work for Toyota I am going to be getting the Toyota.
Actually, I don't know what the site is. Just chanced upon it accidentally. I'm personally not looking to buy an Avalon or cars in its class, but thought it might be useful to this thread.
"Hardly, and yet Toyota still took price on those vehicles" It has nothing to do with Toyota or any other mfr for that matter. It has to do completely with what the market determines is the value and what they are willing to pay....Toyota can ask as much or as little as they want, if the customer does not see value in the price, they will go elsewhere. The Sienna is a great value when compared to its competition, therefore demand outstrips supply and up goes the prices..Until supply increases or demand decreases (or both) one will pay these prices if they want to get into the game. If you think that an Accord, Camry or ES330 is the same as the new Avalon- meaning there is no increased value in the Avalon, then you are spending your money wisely by choosing the substitute product.
I'm not sure I understand the intent of your post, as I understand how supply and demand conspire to affect price levels and I concur with your statements.
My post was in effort to show that the just because the current Avalon does not see its customers fighting for orders, does not rule out that the next will.
I used the analogy of the Sienna, because the previous Sienna was nothing special, however, the redesigned Sienna was such a home run that for many many months Toyota was able to capitalize by offering no discounts. If the product wasnt as good as it was/is, the demand would not be there, and nor would Toyota have had the opportunity to take a price position.
Sorry boss, I thought it was public. I just tried to update my profile, but I keep getting a 'System Error'. I'm going to keep trying, so check out my profile every now and again. No biggie.
Hello everyone. I just saw the actual interior photo, the exterior sketches, and the technical information on the 2006 Avalon yesterday and am very positively impressed and surprised. The interior is simply beautiful, and it is full of innovative and useful features.
I knew it was coming, but had thought that it would be little more than a current Camry with a different front end, dashboard, and taillights. Since it is so far ahead of the current ES330, I wonder what the next model of that car will have?
I am planning on buying to buy a car to replace my SUV in January or February. It seems like I have been car shopping for a long time - we were shopping for my wife's new car in early 2003 (she didn't want a four door and we found an excellent price on a leftover 2002 C230 Coupe), then I started watching and studying the Ford Five Hundred / Mercury Montego and the Chrysler 300 / Dodge Magnum after the Detroit Auto Show this year.
I do think that the Avalon, 300C, and Five Hundred / Montego will be considered by many of the same buyers. By January we should know the the prices of the Avalon and the discounts Ford will surely offer on the Five Hundred.
Don't dismiss the Five Hundred / Montego. Especially if the price drops, they will appeal to many people. I especially like the large trunk, a necesity for me, and find the Montego (it has a two-tone interior, perforated leather, LED tail lights, and HID head lights for about the same price as the Ford) especially attractive. An all wheel drive Montego with every option except the sunroof now lists at $29,740. The big flaws in the Ford cars are 1) a low output engine - just 203Hp and 207 Ft. Lbs., 2) narrow leg space and no telescoping steering column, an issue for those of us who are taller than average, and 3) a lack of features and options (no stability control, no satellite radio, no navigation ...).
I am surprised that Toyota omitted AWD from the Avalon, because it cures the inherent problem with front wheel drive demanding too much from the front tires. Of course, it then seems very likely the ES350 will offer it.
The Chrysler 300C is also an excellent value, offering a very strong engine and good fuel mileage, a proven Mercedes-Benz 5 speed automatic, proven and sophisticated suspension designs from Mercedes-Benz, and a fairly long list of fancy standard and optional features. Unfortunately, the trunk is too small to meet my needs, but the Dodge Magnum is a station wagon version of the same car with a few missing features (e.g. the automatic headlights, although that can be corrected by buying the $48 switch used on the 300C). The bold design looks better and better the more I see it, but visibility is compromised for taller or shorter than average drivers.
I have also looked at the Five Hundred. My 5 member family needs something larger than a Camry/Accord/Passat. So when the Ford came out I went for several test drives and had mixed feelings. So much so that I decided to hold off a purchase until the 2005's January debut.
The new Avalon appears almost as big as the Five hundred, and I suspect the interior quality will be significantly higher (The Five Hundred's cheap interior turns me off when they expect me to shell out $23K.
LxWxH looks like 201x60x74 vs 197x??x73. I suspect the Ford will retain an interior and trunk size advantage. The Avalon will be $4K or so more, and hopefully will have that higher quality I expect for in a car in this price range. Hope the trunk isn't too much smaller though.
The 270 HP vs 200 is not an issue for me. The Ford CVT seemed to provide plenty of get up and go for a family sedan. So I disagree that this puts the Avalon at an advantage. While AWD is nice (And Ford did a very nice job here), it is not a must have (And I live in Maine).
For me, I expect the decision will be Price vs quality.
"The 270 HP vs 200 is not an issue for me. The Ford CVT seemed to provide plenty of get up and go for a family sedan. So I disagree that this puts the Avalon at an advantage. While AWD is nice (And Ford did a very nice job here), it is not a must have (And I live in Maine)."
I think probably for you it might not matter, but in the market, being able to claim that a $28,000 Avalon has 77 more horses and 53 great foot pounds of torque than a $28,000 Five Hundred/Montego represents a definite competitive advantage. You might also feel differently once you load all 5 family members up in the Fords.
Since you seem fairly family oriented, its also worth noting that finding an Avalon with side and curtain airbags will be a cinch- since this is standard. And choosing one with stability control should allay some of your traction concerns. (I do realize that stability is not as effective as AWD in the snow, but its applicability in everyday driving is greater, and the system exacts very little economy/performance penalty). Toyota should have gone the extra mile though, and provided the AWD as an option.
DON'T kill yoursek (mentally) over AWD. I drove an AWD Highlander and "bought" the FWD Highlander w/ traction control & VSC. The latter was easily as good, and better, at times, in the snow.
If it you makes you any more patient, the Lexus GS will be available with AWD. A car that is a more logical alternative to the $48k Acura RL. So, Toyo knows some people want it, and they have the research that tells 'em where to put it. If EVERYONE really wanted AWD, we would all be driving Subaru's. -nomad56-
LxWxH looks like 201x60x74 vs 197x??x73. I suspect the Ford will retain an interior and trunk size advantage.
Ok, I did all the legwork for you, old people. Below are the dimensions for Ford Five Hundred (from the spec page here on Edmunds), and that for 2005 Avalon (from the 23-page spec posted here a few days ago):
Length: Ford is 3.5" longer (200.7 vs 197.2) Width: Ford is 0.8" wider (73.7 vs 72.9) Height: Ford is 2" higher (60.1 vs 58.1) Wheelbase: Ford is 1.9" longer (112.9 vs 111) Front Head Room: Ford is 0.7" more (39.4 vs 38.7) Front Shoulder Room: Avalon is 5.1" wider (59.4 vs 54.3) Front Leg Room: Avalon is 0.4" more (41.7* vs 41.3) Rear Head Room: Ford is 0.7" more (38.6 vs 37.9) Rear Leg Room: exactly the same (40.9) Interior Volume: Ford is 0.2 cubic feet larger (107.1 vs 106.9)
*Front Leg Room was not specified for the new Avalon, so I assumed it to be the same as the 2004 model.
Overall, it looks like Ford is slightly bigger and roomier. I would say Avalon looks pretty good, considering that Ford's interior volume is advertized as the largest in its class.
Not sure how Avalon's front shoulder room can be 5.1" wider than that for Ford, if Ford's overall width is 0.8" more. Does that mean that the Avalon's driver is closer to the door than Ford's driver? Can someone explain?
The Montego / Five Hundered shoulder room is 57.8, not 54.3.
Living in southern CA, it seems that AWD is mainly good to make a FRD vehicle more balanced in situations where the front tires can't handle all of the driving and steering tasks.
I lived in St. Louis until I was 29, then in DC for 3 years, and have driven both RWD and FRD cars in winter weather. Both do well when properly equipped (good snow tires, and a limited slip differential or traction control). Stability control makes it even better.
Comments
http://www.tundrasolutions.com/photopost/showphoto.php/photo/2294- 8/sort/1/cat/6246
Initial impression -- Lexus-like all the way. Nice interior, and it looks OH SO ROOMY!!!
The front exterior shot looks very classy. My only "issue" with the vehicle is with the rear end. Very Camry "solara-ish"
Based on these initial impressions, it looks like Toyo has another winner here.
Including Mercedes E320 and Cadillac deville that I own. Had a 95 that I bought new, sold it with 95,000 miles to a friend of my mechanic. Never had a problem, My mechanic told me last week the guy still has the 95 with over 300,000 miles on the original engine.
I'm very impressed so far. Hope we see a production (or prototype) version soon.
Doug
Also, what's with the 280 hp? I thought Toyota was of the philosophy that building a better all-around car, not blowing the doors off the competitors, was the most important thing.
-Andrew L
One thing I certainly wasnt aware of until hitting the links above was that this is a variant of the 4.0L V6 first debuted in the Runner. (That engine is a longer stroke, obviously tuned for impressive downlow torque... about 283 foot pounds around 3600 RPM, I believe)
~alpha
Footwells. I've seen the same thing on other cars that squeeze more interior room within the wheelbase. The wheel wells protrude more on the front passengers. Guess you can't get something for nothing. I find this particularly annoying on the passenger side where tall passengers sit at a slight angle.
Posts on price.. Don't know about the rest of you, but a base of 30K plus (compared to $25K for the 2004 would turn me off Quick.
Perhaps the way Toyota adressed that issue is with the 4 different Avalon trims. Someone who can't afford ES330 for $36,000 may go for Avalon XL for, say, $27,000. On the other hand, the Limited could easily exceed the ES330 price, which could be justified by the car's size and power. Then there are also Touring and XLS in between. So, yes, it would be interesting to see how all 4 trims will be priced.
I like the interior, but would prefer the wood to be a little darker. It's way too light.
About the 280 hp and FWD - I wonder what Toyota can do about torque steer better than all other car manufacturers. We'll have to wait and see.
I give credit for Toyota for staying with a cassette player option, unlike most other competitors - and unlike their own Corolla. Cassette is not important for many of us, but for some others (me included) which still have hundreds of recorded cassettes, this can be a selling point!
~alpha
I like the rear more than the front, it had the BMW 7 series without it height. What does it mean by New LOW-FRICTION cylinder head and DUAL VVT-i, is it something new in auto maker like Acura SH-Awd. Does anyone know when toyota Crown will debute, I believing it's selling in Europe. This will shakes It competitors
My initial impression of the pics is mixed. I liked the interior a lot - the exterior, however, is pretty standard. The mark X or whatever it was posted a few weeks ago looked a lot nicer to me. I especially was hoping for square exhaust tips rather than the round...
Regardless of the price and relative values of the avalon and es330, i think the es330 will continue to sell because many people want an L on the hood rather than a t. In addition, lexus service is simply in a different league (that, of course, you pay for).
Can't wait to see the avalon for real...
The interior looks equally bland. Frankly, the current model, inside and out, is more appealing than this blue collar heap of junk. It seems instead of auto designs evolving they appear to be regressing.
Toyota, give it up, it is time to outsource your car designs.
My 2-1/2 cents.
I'll reserve judgement until I actually see real pictures and better yet the actual car in person.
bwia, you're welcome to pass the next Avalon by. I personally think the styling, inside and out, is a very tasteful evolution of the current vehicles themes. And to reiterate max's comment, I havent actually seen a real picture of the exterior, only drawings, and the picture of the interior looks great. I am less than thrilled by the heavy utilization of the aluminum look, but its still a very attractive design, and I wonder if that dash will be the same for all the models.
I don't think Toyota is going to have a hard time getting MSRP for this one for at least 8 months after introduction, if marketing does a good job (as they did with the leaps-and-bounds-better than-its-predecessor Sienna).
~alpha
I think the car looks tasteful from the drawings.
I am sure it will be VERY luxurious and be VERY reliable.
I am hoping to be able to Intern with Toyota in about a year while pursuing a degree in PKG SCIENCE.
I pray to GOD that I get to Intern with Toyota in Kentucky.
That would be the ultimate job!!!
With no disrespect you, I've always felt the second gen Avalon to be a bit awkward in its proportions.
~alpha
But I highly doubt they will do that. It's an Avalon. Not much people step on and grab each other for an Avalon.
Did many people do this for the previous Sienna? Hardly, and yet Toyota still took price on those vehicles (sold at MSRP and/or above) for the better part of a year after launch in March 2003.
~alpha
I thought about interning with BMW in Greer, SC, which is about one hour from where I live.
Back to the Avalon....
For some reason, Toyota LOVES putting mudguards on cars here in the SouthEast region (the distributors) and thus MANY of the 2nd gen Avalons had those. For some reason those cars look a lot better with the flaps.
But I think overall, the 1st gen with the facelift (98-99)look GREAT.
I think Toyota had a hit on their hands then.
Also, did anyone see that Alloy wheels are now standard and that the bench seat and column shift are now deleted.
I am dying to see what they do with the Sport and Limited models.
I hope after I get this degree (Lord help me) that I am able to afford something like the new Avalon...but then again, the Camry, Altima, Accord and Passat will be out by then.
One thing is for sure, if I work for Toyota I am going to be getting the Toyota.
I can't wait. I am SO EXCITED!!!
~alpha
I just hope that's not going to be like that with the Avalon.
It has nothing to do with Toyota or any other mfr for that matter. It has to do completely with what the market determines is the value and what they are willing to pay....Toyota can ask as much or as little as they want, if the customer does not see value in the price, they will go elsewhere. The Sienna is a great value when compared to its competition, therefore demand outstrips supply and up goes the prices..Until supply increases or demand decreases (or both) one will pay these prices if they want to get into the game.
If you think that an Accord, Camry or ES330 is the same as the new Avalon- meaning there is no increased value in the Avalon, then you are spending your money wisely by choosing the substitute product.
My post was in effort to show that the just because the current Avalon does not see its customers fighting for orders, does not rule out that the next will.
I used the analogy of the Sienna, because the previous Sienna was nothing special, however, the redesigned Sienna was such a home run that for many many months Toyota was able to capitalize by offering no discounts. If the product wasnt as good as it was/is, the demand would not be there, and nor would Toyota have had the opportunity to take a price position.
~alpha
Happy Turkey Day to everyone!
~alpha
I knew it was coming, but had thought that it would be little more than a current Camry with a different front end, dashboard, and taillights. Since it is so far ahead of the current ES330, I wonder what the next model of that car will have?
I am planning on buying to buy a car to replace my SUV in January or February. It seems like I have been car shopping for a long time - we were shopping for my wife's new car in early 2003 (she didn't want a four door and we found an excellent price on a leftover 2002 C230 Coupe), then I started watching and studying the Ford Five Hundred / Mercury Montego and the Chrysler 300 / Dodge Magnum after the Detroit Auto Show this year.
I do think that the Avalon, 300C, and Five Hundred / Montego will be considered by many of the same buyers. By January we should know the the prices of the Avalon and the discounts Ford will surely offer on the Five Hundred.
Don't dismiss the Five Hundred / Montego. Especially if the price drops, they will appeal to many people. I especially like the large trunk, a necesity for me, and find the Montego (it has a two-tone interior, perforated leather, LED tail lights, and HID head lights for about the same price as the Ford) especially attractive. An all wheel drive Montego with every option except the sunroof now lists at $29,740. The big flaws in the Ford cars are 1) a low output engine - just 203Hp and 207 Ft. Lbs., 2) narrow leg space and no telescoping steering column, an issue for those of us who are taller than average, and 3) a lack of features and options (no stability control, no satellite radio, no navigation ...).
I am surprised that Toyota omitted AWD from the Avalon, because it cures the inherent problem with front wheel drive demanding too much from the front tires. Of course, it then seems very likely the ES350 will offer it.
The Chrysler 300C is also an excellent value, offering a very strong engine and good fuel mileage, a proven Mercedes-Benz 5 speed automatic, proven and sophisticated suspension designs from Mercedes-Benz, and a fairly long list of fancy standard and optional features. Unfortunately, the trunk is too small to meet my needs, but the Dodge Magnum is a station wagon version of the same car with a few missing features (e.g. the automatic headlights, although that can be corrected by buying the $48 switch used on the 300C). The bold design looks better and better the more I see it, but visibility is compromised for taller or shorter than average drivers.
The new Avalon appears almost as big as the Five hundred, and I suspect the interior quality will be significantly higher (The Five Hundred's cheap interior turns me off when they expect me to shell out $23K.
LxWxH looks like 201x60x74 vs 197x??x73. I suspect the Ford will retain an interior and trunk size advantage. The Avalon will be $4K or so more, and hopefully will have that higher quality I expect for in a car in this price range. Hope the trunk isn't too much smaller though.
The 270 HP vs 200 is not an issue for me. The Ford CVT seemed to provide plenty of get up and go for a family sedan. So I disagree that this puts the Avalon at an advantage. While AWD is nice (And Ford did a very nice job here), it is not a must have (And I live in Maine).
For me, I expect the decision will be Price vs quality.
I think probably for you it might not matter, but in the market, being able to claim that a $28,000 Avalon has 77 more horses and 53 great foot pounds of torque than a $28,000 Five Hundred/Montego represents a definite competitive advantage. You might also feel differently once you load all 5 family members up in the Fords.
Since you seem fairly family oriented, its also worth noting that finding an Avalon with side and curtain airbags will be a cinch- since this is standard. And choosing one with stability control should allay some of your traction concerns. (I do realize that stability is not as effective as AWD in the snow, but its applicability in everyday driving is greater, and the system exacts very little economy/performance penalty). Toyota should have gone the extra mile though, and provided the AWD as an option.
~alpha
If it you makes you any more patient, the Lexus GS will be available with AWD. A car that is a more logical alternative to the $48k Acura RL. So, Toyo knows some people want it, and they have the research that tells 'em where to put it. If EVERYONE really wanted AWD, we would all be driving Subaru's. -nomad56-
I'm just saying that since Toyota is offering AWD on the mainstream Sienna, for example, it would have been nice to offer it on the Avalon.
And its a bit of a stretch to advise someone looking at a $23K Ford Five Hundred to wait for the $45,000+ GS AWD.
~alpha
Ok, I did all the legwork for you, old people. Below are the dimensions for Ford Five Hundred (from the spec page here on Edmunds), and that for 2005 Avalon (from the 23-page spec posted here a few days ago):
Length: Ford is 3.5" longer (200.7 vs 197.2)
Width: Ford is 0.8" wider (73.7 vs 72.9)
Height: Ford is 2" higher (60.1 vs 58.1)
Wheelbase: Ford is 1.9" longer (112.9 vs 111)
Front Head Room: Ford is 0.7" more (39.4 vs 38.7)
Front Shoulder Room: Avalon is 5.1" wider (59.4 vs 54.3)
Front Leg Room: Avalon is 0.4" more (41.7* vs 41.3)
Rear Head Room: Ford is 0.7" more (38.6 vs 37.9)
Rear Leg Room: exactly the same (40.9)
Interior Volume: Ford is 0.2 cubic feet larger (107.1 vs 106.9)
*Front Leg Room was not specified for the new Avalon, so I assumed it to be the same as the 2004 model.
Overall, it looks like Ford is slightly bigger and roomier. I would say Avalon looks pretty good, considering that Ford's interior volume is advertized as the largest in its class.
Not sure how Avalon's front shoulder room can be 5.1" wider than that for Ford, if Ford's overall width is 0.8" more. Does that mean that the Avalon's driver is closer to the door than Ford's driver? Can someone explain?
Living in southern CA, it seems that AWD is mainly good to make a FRD vehicle more balanced in situations where the front tires can't handle all of the driving and steering tasks.
I lived in St. Louis until I was 29, then in DC for 3 years, and have driven both RWD and FRD cars in winter weather. Both do well when properly equipped (good snow tires, and a limited slip differential or traction control). Stability control makes it even better.