Leases would be precisely the situation when a car's resale value is most important. In effect, you are paying for the portion of the car's value you use. Example of this would be that 2003 Sonata GLS V6 that's now worth $9600.00 at 36k and in excellent cond. (kbb.com) vs. the Camry XLE V6 that is worth $13.6k - a $4000.00 difference. Excluding some considerations for the time value of money, the Camry would therefore lease for less money than the Sonata if it original cost to the leasing company was less than that $4000.00 difference. Simple math - and something that a lot of folks that lease cars don't understand - you are effectively guaranteeing to the actual owner of the leased car its value at the end of lease - this is done not only with mileage limits and surcharges but also with condition evaluations (by them) and compliance with some sort of maintainence program. Leasing really designed for people that buy cars by payment size and don't drive much - and there is a reason that dealers would rather lease a car than sell it! Suggesting that the same situation will likely happen with the Azera, if the Azera Ltd. (at $29k) is roughly equivalent to the Av XLS (at $33k) - how much of that price difference do you get back 3 or 4 years from now? The resale price difference will, of course, narrow as the years go on, which could make the Azera a better value - if it proves to be as durable and reliable as Toyotas generally are.
I was stating that Hyundai is at this moment offering attractive lease deals on Sonatas and other Hyundais. They are taking the resale risk for people who are scared to buy a Hyundai due to fears of low resale. So, there is no reason to talk about a Camry having higher resale value if you take one of the current lease deals. There is no reason for the remark about "there is a reason the dealers would rather lease than sell" since lots of Toyotas and Lexus cars are leased.
I also had the 3M paint protector placed on the car a few days after I bought it. They covered the entire front end 18 inched up the hood, fronts of the mirrors, the door edges, small patches behind the tires where dirt kicks up, small patches inside where the handles are to avoid key and ring scratches, and I had them place a piece all along the rear bumper where you would set stuff when you unload the trunk. I paid about 550 and it took the guy about 7 hours. May not be the best price, but he did a great job and you can hardly see it. I have taken several trips where the front ends up a bug graveyard and it washes right off. I have the phantom grey pearl color and I forget about it and don't even notice it. Anyone in the Phoenix area let me know if you are interested.
I use the navigation all the time. Just having it on while driving around is helpful. At night, I know what street is coming up before I could ever see it and without slowing down and annoying other drivers when I am in a different part of town. During daylight hours, its great because if there are back ups or construction I can see in a moment any side streets and how they connect back to my route and thus take short cuts. I don't enter the guidence system, just use my eyes. I love the navi!
jaxs- think you are missing my point - there are no such things as attractive lease deals - leases certainly have the highest interest rates and costs that can be associated with car 'ownership' and also serve to insulate the leasee from having to deal with what the car is actually costing. Which is why dealers love them - more profit and less consumer resistance. And if, Hyundai is actually reducing a lease payment size by assumming a higher residual value than actual market, then this subsidy by the mfgr. is also negotiable in a real purchase. No different than rebates, holdbacks, interest rate buy downs etc. Toyota has not found it necessary to do anything to sell about all the Avalons it can make, which is good for their bottom line, of course. Azeras, because they do appear to offer some real value, will likely leave the lots at something approaching sticker for a while. But the point remains - the lease payment should not be significantly different despite the 10% premium or so on the Av - because of resale values.
You seem to be saying that leasing is always bad which is not the case. It depends. This article is a reasonable explanation of what goes on in these things - my opinion (obviously) is that leases are a good way to keep monthly out-of-pocket down - but an expensive way actually use a car. The article's comparison of $400.00 lease payment vs. $650.00 purchase payments somehow neglect to consider that after the purchase you now own something worth $11k compared to owning nothing. Have a good friend that leased a Audi TT on a 12k mileage allowance and a $19k residual for 42 months. Recently moved and now commutes 160 miles/day. Bottom line is they will have now have to buy the car whether they want to not at the $19k the car won't be worth - or face several thousand dollars of use charges to get out from under it.
I agree that keeping the map on is useful. What I find problematic is putting in an address, particularly at night, and being dropped by the GPS pretty far from my destination (sometimes the wrong street). Lately I've been using map quest as a back up-even tho they're not known for their accuracy, they're better than the GPS.
Dear fellow members: Is this a Hyundai chat or am I wrong in thinking that it is an Avalon chat?Please read the top line,it clearly states Avalon. I love my XLS with new reworked computer that will leave many a car in the dust and at the same time take me there in great comfort. Regards to all.
Good to hear from you again. Can I ask what you meant by "new reworked computer"? Half a year ago in message #7113 you said that "I have the same problem with the hesitation at low speeds... it seems more pressing to resolve this problem with Toyota." Has Toyota modified the controller in your Avalon since then?
Hello havalonggavalon: I sent computer to ? Performance Products.$300 plus a few dollars later they returned it to me with all fuel curves reworked.They say I picked up 12 to 17 more horses.I changed air filter also to ?,probably picked up 3 to 5 horses.I also get no hesitation anymore. Sorry can not tell the specific products or I might be shot by ?. ?=products name or person ojor
ojor: I don't think anyone is going to shoot you if you provide product or company details. Please post the phone number of Performance Products. I'd love to exorcise the demons haunting my Avalon's ECU! Thanks.
You are right, no one is going to shoot ojor , but let's not post phone numbers. If there is a website, the URL would be fine, but personal contact information such as telephone numbers, email addresses, that sort of thing, should not be posted since we have no way to know if the person at the other end is okay with that.
So ojor, can you give us a website address? I think lots of folks would be very interested in it.
Sorry Ojor - I strongly disagree with your sentiment. This may indeed be the Avalon chat area, but I WELCOME discussions and comparisons to other brands that are coming online to compete with my Avalon. I think it keeps Toyota on their toes, and promotes competition - and from what I've heard and seen, the Azera is going to give the Avalon a run for its money or my money.
I agree with you that comparisons are always a great topic and well worth exploring. We have a board dedicated to that purpose - Comparisons - Sedans vs. Sedans - where you'll find a number of comparos that include the Avalon. If you don't see one that fits what interests you, please feel free to fire up another one!
My main concern is if the reprogramming done by JET can be wiped out if a Toyota service department needs to reset or reinitialize the ECU for any reason. Hmm.
Thanks for the url mjinsj. I want to talk to these guys about what they do. Toua re right, if it is just reprogramming there is a concern that a dealer could overwrite the programming with Toyota default. I'm also concerned about warranty issues and how a programming change affects emissions. In the event of any engine/transmission problem, I am sure Toyota would blame the reprogrammed ECU no matter what. Which leads to the $64,000 question - if a third party can get the programming right then why can't Toyota?
This website is well structured and includes a FAQ section that anticipates many questions, such as alan_s now raised. They claim that the warranty cannot be voided by adding this type of third party device, although it could lead to litigation between the manufacturer and the third party vendor. They also claim that manufacturers don't usually program for peak performance since they cater to a wide range of drivers, not only those interested in horsepower.
Given that the Avalon system was intended as an optimal compromise to maximize both performance and fuel economy, I wonder about any detrimental effects on fuel economy.
ojor, you are our pioneer in using this system. Have you noticed any effects on fuel economy yet?
I've e-mailed JET about whether their reprogramming can be inadvertently wiped out by a dealer. I'll report back after they reply.
And a big thanks to ojor for the information... I had no idea such reprogramming was possible. I've only had my 2006 Avalon Ltd for three weeks and the "hesitation" effect is already annoying me.
Hi havalongavalon: Computer rework was done to enhance performance,it just happens to have helped the hesitation issue.I dont think is was done purposely to cure problem but just pure chance since I have not noticed any hesitation since.At first I called ? but their customer service leaves a lot to be desired.Never got an answer but as it turned out it was a blessing in disguise since my mileage actually was great at high altitude cruising speeds.I am talking about 28 29 mpg at 80 85 90 mph maybe I am exagerating a bit but I can vouche for the fact that at those speeds the milege was a lot better than before.In the city I get 21 22 mpg in city and some highway driving. By the way if you tell your mostly friendly toyota service department not no touch comuputer, they should not.Also I have a secret that I am willing to share with my fellow brethern:I bought a use 05 computer for any problems that might arise from the mounted toyota police.I would just change it if need be an all would be as original. Remember thse were by products of enhacing performance.By the way if you go through a third party you would pay $299 plus shippng instead of $399 like ? wants. Hope I answer some of your questions. ojor
Thanks, ojor, this is all very interesting information. It's excellent that you are getting better performance, no hesitation, AND better gas mileage. Seems that the control program can be truly improved beyond Toyota's factory settings, then.
I didn't realize that you could buy a used 05 Avalon computer as back-up. Where would you recommend getting one?
I am also intrigued by your mention or a third party vendor for this specialized performance equipment. You may be generating more sales for them by sharing your experience, so I encourage you to tell us more about these vendors.
I just briefly looked at the Jet Performance web site but I'm a little puzzled & concerned that they list a single chip that fits 1995-2006 Avalons. Since the 2005-2006 Avalon has an engine that is more than a little different from it's predecessors, how can one chip fit all of them?
I don't doubt that today's cars can be performance tuned through software (I am a software engineer) but I'm kinda suspicious that one set of code works in all of these cars.
Some one, a few days ago, said they had a Toyota factory representative coming to the dealer to listen to their cold engine knocking sounds. Did that person ever report what the Toyota person said? TIA bob
tstrick, I agree it's odd. And JET's same part code 65002 ($399) fits ALL other Toyota models too, Echo through Sequoia and for all model years. They show a limited number of codes: 65001 ($299) for Acura TL, 65006 ($799) for Porsche 928... This may indicate a generic price per car category. Obviously the ECUs and programs vary widely, and they need to know each model specifics.
In the FAQ they say that JET Performance tuning replaces stock computer tuning inside the vehicle computer to give maximum power and torque. The tuning can be delivered in the form of a chip that replaces the stock computer chip, a chip that piggy-backs the stock computer chip, a chip that plugs into the back of the stock computer, or a module that intercepts and modifies the signals from the stock computer with JET Performance Power Tuning. The type of computer in your vehicle dictates the type of device needed.
ojor, the JET website includes a list of third party dealers -- you were probably referring to these?
Hello havalongavalon: All Avalons 05-06 have same computers#89661-07410.Cart-Part.com has them available but some are asking $450 for them thats crazy,should only pay around $250 or less.I sent computer to ? they need to do the changes to the computer> rework fuel curves and timing.91 octane recommended I use 93 most of the time.No chips involved, the computer most be opened to make changes,it is sealed with their stickers and they tell you not to open it or a genie might pop out,kidding,but they do tell you not to break seals.The ? and N filter also helps,some people worry about oil messing up mass air flow sensor but ? and N assured me it will be ok. Lastly I am looking to change rear sway bar to a larger diameter plus polyurethane bushings to improve handling .I will keep you posted.I already changed front bushings. It is a little undertaking but you will be pleased with results if a little more bang out of the Avalon is what you want plus in my case I have not noticed the erratic shifting since I updated the computer.Maybe is because I am traveling the speed of sound and I dont notice it. I was given a number by Craig at ? Performance Products he is the intermediary so that I only get charged $299 ples shipping.Speed Shop and outfit in NC sent a box to package computer and sent it to ? Performance Products and they return it overnight.1 day turn around. Thats all folks. ojor
If what people are saying is true, that re flashing or reprogramming the engine control chip will eliminate the hesitation then I suspect the hesitation (if it really exists, I've never experienced it in my '06 Limited) has never been caused by the transmission but rather the VVT in the engine. The new programming probably jumps up the RPM's faster upon acceleration so that the VVT ramps up faster.
There is no way that the new programming will increase gas mileage. People who use this chip are looking for performance and don't care about mileage. It also must advance the timing so now you are required to use 91 octane gas. Think about it, if the new programming increased horsepower and increased gas mileage why wouldn't Toyota use the same software? It may increase performance but is more than offset by the lower gas mileage and the need for 91 octane gas. Do you think Toyota would sell more or less Avalons if they got 18 city 24 highway for mileage and needed 91 octane gas so they could have 280 HP instead of 268? Do people also realize the top HP is not reached until you get to 5000 RPM or better, even with the new programming? When is the last time you reved your Avalon to 5000 RPM? There is no free lunch in the world of physics, to get more HP you have to use more energy (gasoline) period.
Sometimes I wonder why people buy an Avalon and expect it to perform like a Corvette.
Just an update. I am meeting with the Toyota Rep next Tuesday regarding both the rattle and the transmission shifting hesitation issue I've been experiencing. I'll provide an update after that meeting.
I have to differ with you, Captain, that "there is no such thing as an attractive lease deal".
I think it depends on your objectives and the use of the vehicle. I do agree that leases are often used by average folks to buy a personal car (no business use) that's just a little more expensive than they can really afford. Leasing shifts the pain to the back end (far away from the joy of the purchase). These folks are digging themselves a hole with residuals that leave them upside down.
However, I just signed a lease and will take delivery of my new 06 Limited tomorrow. I'm one of those people who never thought I'd lease a car. I always thought of leases as the financial instrument of people who trade cars every 3-4 years and only want to pay for what they use. If you've already made the decision to live that high on the depreciation curve then leasing probably makes sense. However, if you're a "buy and hold" type like me then owning the car always felt better.
SO, as I planned the purchase of my new Avalon I was thinking loan all the way. That is, until, I met with my financial planner. Since the car will be used in my business, he recommended a 3 year lease with an increased mileage allowance to drive down the residual and then purchase the car at termination. This lets me move the cost out of my capital budget and into operating expenses for better tax treatment.
Per Consumer Reports recommendations, I shopped for a lease before going to the dealership. I found one through leasecompare.com that has a money factor of .00225 (5.4%) which is better than the best loan rates I've seen. BTW, I heartily recommend leasecompare.com. They have been excellent. After making my "cash" deal on the car (more about that soon in the Avalon Prices & buying experience forum) I invited the dealership's finance manager to meet or beat my lease terms. After an 1.5 hours of head scratching (and no pressure to me) he finally admitted he couldn't touch it and congratulated me on getting such good terms.
Granted, my objective here is somewhat different than the typical lease. But after looking at this scenario and comparing it to a straight purchase, the total cash outlay with the lease was less than $1000 more than a straight purchase while the tax benefits will far outweigh that.
Now I'm just counting the hours until my new Avalon is delivered tomorrow.
actually did something similar on a '99 Suburban a few years back - 'company owned' cost $32k (40k sticker) put on a 3 year lease at $1100.00/month - no mileage limits or other requirements. Why - because I drive 35k miles/year and because my company could expense the entirety of the truck over a shorter period of time. The truck was then transferred back into the company's name, and taxes were paid on the truck's residual value (at 100k miles)at the end of lease. A lot like a purchase, but at a double digit interest rate - does the value of the quicker 'depreciation' of the vehicle offset the higher interest rates - close - but there are no free lunches. Overall, however, I think too many folks end up being swayed by payment size and get in trouble with leases.
Overall, however, I think too many folks end up being swayed by payment size and get in trouble with leases.
I absolutely agree. The central concept of a lease is to "pay for what you use". Unfortunately, many consumer leases are designed to minimize payments (and maximize sales) such that they don't cover the real depreciation. AND, buried inside the fog of the lease terms is the fact that the interest rate (money factor) is higher than market rates for loans.
All in all, I think most consumer leases as they are currently sold are a fantastic deal for... the DEALERSHIP and the FINANCE COMPANY but not the consumer.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to look at the hardware on the road and see that it's out of sync with what we know about average income.
A couple of points here... I was reading on a Canadian website that Lexus provided an ECU fix for the hesitation problem on the ES330 for the Japanese and Canadian market only. The fix was not applied to US models because of emission compliance. Is it possible that the Canadian Avalon's are tuned slightly different than the US ones? Regarding leasing - very good leasing deals can be had if you know how to calculate a lease! Most people have no idea how to calculate the cost of a lease which leaves plenty of room for dealers to hide money. I have leased over the recent years and I always put together a spreadsheet that calculates both the total lease and total loan costs, and the cost difference is actually negligible in total dollars - if you know what you are doing. The advantage of a lease is that you have less money up front, the use of more of your money during the lease period, and the tax advantage. The leasing companies offer low buy-out rates at the end of the lease because they don't want the car back, and the residuals are often negotiable at the end of the lease if you purchase it then. Also, manufacturer subsidized leases can be excellent deals. It all comes down to knowing how to calculate the lease terms up front.
There is no free lunch in the world of physics, to get more HP you have to use more energy (gasoline) period. Absolutely true, of course, all other factors being equal - with things such as the VVT and electronic controls that allow our Avalons to produce 70 more HP and better mpg than the Avalons of 2004 and earlier. One of the (possibly few) advantages of this electronic invasion that we are all experiencing with our cars. The price we are all paying - vehicles that are sometimes impossible to diagnose when they do have problems, a hit and miss repair method (even by supposed experts) something akin to fixing a computer or a TV, overzealous control systems that may actually be dangerous etc.. While I certainly enjoy my HP and my 27 mpg - I still wonder if we all may end up paying too much for all this technology?
was reading on a Canadian website that Lexus provided an ECU fix for the hesitation problem on the ES330 for the Japanese and Canadian market only. The fix was not applied to US models because of emission compliance. Is it possible that the Canadian Avalon's are tuned slightly different than the US ones?
Well, that's interesting news. There is a Technical Service bulletin for an ECU fix for U.S. hesitation problems, too, however, there has been inconsistency in how well it works -- some say the problem is fixed, others say it is fixed only temporarily, and others have no improvement or even worsening of the problem. I have also heard that stringent emissions requirements could be hindering Toyota coming up with a better fix. Do you have link for that website?
Hi: The Avalon needs more horsepower like Howard Stern needs more Sirius stock. What the Avalon needs is aftermarket suspension parts which are not yet out there as far as I can tell. I'd like better shocks/struts/bushings to improve handling for my 05 XLS. Anybody know something? Deannie
I'm sure someone out there has experience with the XM or Sirius option. I am planning on adding it to my wife's '06 Limited but I don't want a receiver placed somewhere in or under the dash. How is that done and is the end result worth it? I'm being quoted about $450.00 - $500.00 for the installation. I realize an antenna is placed either on the rear window or on the trunk....I can handle that, it's the "box" that I'm concerned about. I don't want to detract from the good looks of the interior. Thanks for any response.
I was just browsing dealerships inventories of 2006 Limiteds and found one that had Wood Dash Applique added to the list of options for $299. Just wondering if anyone knows what that is?? Wondering what it has that mine doesn't have. Anyone have this?
In the "search this discussion" box at the top & bottom of this page, type in XM or Sirius - you will get so many postings on this subject you will be nauseated (and educated). BTW, have you asked your dealer? zekeman1
I'm not sure if it may be me you are referencing, since I have engine knock, maybe lifter noise, but not only when cold, but all the time at idle. Sometimes it's louder than others. However I did meet with a regional service tech. he didn't have much to say, the service manager said noisy lifters are happy lifters, and that he did not think it would lead to engine faults. I have two mechanic friends that listened to it separately and both said they would not worry about it. They said it's not correct but of no big concern. So I will listen to one of my mechanic friends who said if it is something bad it will get worse during warranty, so for me wait and see.
Luxosport, check my message #10143. And zekeman1 is correct, tons of XM messages on this Board. I have the XM package in my Limited, there is no "box" to clutter up your interior view of your beautiful new Avy! The Toyota box is in the trunk, connects to the factory sound system, looks and sounds great. If I were buying aftermarket, I would buy from the Web site mentioned (they are a Toyota dealer with an aggressive mail-order shop) and have my sound shop install. Advise if further info is needed...
Thanks to those of you who have responded to my queries and provided valuable insights over the last 6 months as I finalized my decision to buy an Avalon. I took delivery of my new Phantom Gray/Ivory Limited last night.
For those who are watching here and are about to take the plunge, see my (long) post in the Avalon Prices & Buying Experience forum for details on what, where & how much.
I'm off to put some miles on this baby then I'll be back as a contributor!
"I have engine knock, maybe lifter noise, but not only when cold, but all the time at idle. Sometimes it's louder than others."
Try 16 to 32 ounces of Marvel Mystery Oil in the crankcase to quiet valve train and bottom end noises. Don't overfill past the full mark on the dipstick. MMO is an old mechanic trick. Buy it at any auto parts store, supermarket, Wal Mart, etc..
Put whatever's left (up to 1 pint or so - follow directions on the container) in the gas tank at fillup. Pour in MMO when the tank's empty, then fill the tank with gas; not when the tank's full. Happy injectors. Big mileage. Smooooth driving. May even help so-called "tranny hes".
Comments
Suggesting that the same situation will likely happen with the Azera, if the Azera Ltd. (at $29k) is roughly equivalent to the Av XLS (at $33k) - how much of that price difference do you get back 3 or 4 years from now? The resale price difference will, of course, narrow as the years go on, which could make the Azera a better value - if it proves to be as durable and reliable as Toyotas generally are.
So, there is no reason to talk about a Camry having higher resale value if you take one of the current lease deals.
There is no reason for the remark about "there is a reason the dealers would rather lease than sell" since lots of Toyotas and Lexus cars are leased.
think you are missing my point - there are no such things as attractive lease deals - leases certainly have the highest interest rates and costs that can be associated with car 'ownership' and also serve to insulate the leasee from having to deal with what the car is actually costing. Which is why dealers love them - more profit and less consumer resistance. And if, Hyundai is actually reducing a lease payment size by assumming a higher residual value than actual market, then this subsidy by the mfgr. is also negotiable in a real purchase. No different than rebates, holdbacks, interest rate buy downs etc.
Toyota has not found it necessary to do anything to sell about all the Avalons it can make, which is good for their bottom line, of course. Azeras, because they do appear to offer some real value, will likely leave the lots at something approaching sticker for a while. But the point remains - the lease payment should not be significantly different despite the 10% premium or so on the Av - because of resale values.
This guide seems to spell out the issues fairly well:
http://www.leaseguide.com/lease03.htm
This article is a reasonable explanation of what goes on in these things - my opinion (obviously) is that leases are a good way to keep monthly out-of-pocket down - but an expensive way actually use a car. The article's comparison of $400.00 lease payment vs. $650.00 purchase payments somehow neglect to consider that after the purchase you now own something worth $11k compared to owning nothing.
Have a good friend that leased a Audi TT on a 12k mileage allowance and a $19k residual for 42 months. Recently moved and now commutes 160 miles/day. Bottom line is they will have now have to buy the car whether they want to not at the $19k the car won't be worth - or face several thousand dollars of use charges to get out from under it.
Is this a Hyundai chat or am I wrong in thinking that it is an Avalon chat?Please read the top line,it clearly states Avalon.
I love my XLS with new reworked computer that will leave many a car in the dust and at the same time take me there in great comfort.
Regards to all.
Ojor a happy costumer
Good to hear from you again. Can I ask what you meant by "new reworked computer"? Half a year ago in message #7113 you said that "I have the same problem with the hesitation at low speeds... it seems more pressing to resolve this problem with Toyota." Has Toyota modified the controller in your Avalon since then?
Thanks,
havalong
I sent computer to ? Performance Products.$300 plus a few dollars later they returned it to me with all fuel curves reworked.They say I picked up 12 to 17 more horses.I changed air filter also to ?,probably picked up 3 to 5 horses.I also get no hesitation anymore.
Sorry can not tell the specific products or I might be shot by ?.
?=products name or person
ojor
Thanks.
So ojor, can you give us a website address? I think lots of folks would be very interested in it.
Steve
I agree with you that comparisons are always a great topic and well worth exploring. We have a board dedicated to that purpose - Comparisons - Sedans vs. Sedans - where you'll find a number of comparos that include the Avalon. If you don't see one that fits what interests you, please feel free to fire up another one!
http://www.jetchip.com/products.asp?pid=14478
My main concern is if the reprogramming done by JET can be wiped out if a Toyota service department needs to reset or reinitialize the ECU for any reason. Hmm.
Which leads to the $64,000 question - if a third party can get the programming right then why can't Toyota?
Jet Performance Products, link title
This website is well structured and includes a FAQ section that anticipates many questions, such as alan_s now raised. They claim that the warranty cannot be voided by adding this type of third party device, although it could lead to litigation between the manufacturer and the third party vendor. They also claim that manufacturers don't usually program for peak performance since they cater to a wide range of drivers, not only those interested in horsepower.
Given that the Avalon system was intended as an optimal compromise to maximize both performance and fuel economy, I wonder about any detrimental effects on fuel economy.
ojor, you are our pioneer in using this system. Have you noticed any effects on fuel economy yet?
havalong
I've e-mailed JET about whether their reprogramming can be inadvertently wiped out by a dealer. I'll report back after they reply.
And a big thanks to ojor for the information... I had no idea such reprogramming was possible. I've only had my 2006 Avalon Ltd for three weeks and the "hesitation" effect is already annoying me.
Mike
Computer rework was done to enhance performance,it just happens to have helped the hesitation issue.I dont think is was done purposely to cure problem but just pure chance since I have not noticed any hesitation since.At first I called ? but their customer service leaves a lot to be desired.Never got an answer but as it turned out it was a blessing in disguise since my mileage actually was great at high altitude cruising speeds.I am talking about 28 29 mpg at 80 85 90 mph maybe I am exagerating a bit but I can vouche for the fact that at those speeds the milege was a lot better than before.In the city I get 21 22 mpg in city and some highway driving.
By the way if you tell your mostly friendly toyota service department not no touch comuputer, they should not.Also I have a secret that I am willing to share with my fellow brethern:I bought a use 05 computer for any problems that might arise from the mounted toyota police.I would just change it if need be an all would be as original.
Remember thse were by products of enhacing performance.By the way if you go through a third party you would pay $299 plus shippng instead of $399 like ? wants.
Hope I answer some of your questions.
ojor
I didn't realize that you could buy a used 05 Avalon computer as back-up. Where would you recommend getting one?
I am also intrigued by your mention or a third party vendor for this specialized performance equipment. You may be generating more sales for them by sharing your experience, so I encourage you to tell us more about these vendors.
Thanks again,
havalong
I don't doubt that today's cars can be performance tuned through software (I am a software engineer) but I'm kinda suspicious that one set of code works in all of these cars.
In the FAQ they say that JET Performance tuning replaces stock computer tuning inside the vehicle computer to give maximum power and torque. The tuning can be delivered in the form of a chip that replaces the stock computer chip, a chip that piggy-backs the stock computer chip, a chip that plugs into the back of the stock computer, or a module that intercepts and modifies the signals from the stock computer with JET Performance Power Tuning. The type of computer in your vehicle dictates the type of device needed.
ojor, the JET website includes a list of third party dealers -- you were probably referring to these?
havalong
All Avalons 05-06 have same computers#89661-07410.Cart-Part.com has them available but some are asking $450 for them thats crazy,should only pay around $250 or less.I sent computer to ? they need to do the changes to the computer> rework fuel curves and timing.91 octane recommended I use 93 most of the time.No chips involved, the computer most be opened to make changes,it is sealed with their stickers and they tell you not to open it or a genie might pop out,kidding,but they do tell you not to break seals.The ? and N filter also helps,some people worry about oil messing up mass air flow sensor but ? and N assured me it will be ok.
Lastly I am looking to change rear sway bar to a larger diameter plus polyurethane bushings to improve handling .I will keep you posted.I already changed front bushings.
It is a little undertaking but you will be pleased with results if a little more bang out of the Avalon is what you want plus in my case I have not noticed the erratic shifting since I updated the computer.Maybe is because I am traveling the speed of sound and I dont notice it.
I was given a number by Craig at ? Performance Products he is the intermediary so that I only get charged $299 ples shipping.Speed Shop and outfit in NC sent a box to package computer and sent it to ? Performance Products and they return it overnight.1 day turn around.
Thats all folks.
ojor
So far my XLS goes and sways swell, but I'll keep an eye on your performance updates.
Over for now,
havalong
There is no way that the new programming will increase gas mileage. People who use this chip are looking for performance and don't care about mileage. It also must advance the timing so now you are required to use 91 octane gas. Think about it, if the new programming increased horsepower and increased gas mileage why wouldn't Toyota use the same software? It may increase performance but is more than offset by the lower gas mileage and the need for 91 octane gas. Do you think Toyota would sell more or less Avalons if they got 18 city 24 highway for mileage and needed 91 octane gas so they could have 280 HP instead of 268? Do people also realize the top HP is not reached until you get to 5000 RPM or better, even with the new programming? When is the last time you reved your Avalon to 5000 RPM? There is no free lunch in the world of physics, to get more HP you have to use more energy (gasoline) period.
Sometimes I wonder why people buy an Avalon and expect it to perform like a Corvette.
I think it depends on your objectives and the use of the vehicle. I do agree that leases are often used by average folks to buy a personal car (no business use) that's just a little more expensive than they can really afford. Leasing shifts the pain to the back end (far away from the joy of the purchase). These folks are digging themselves a hole with residuals that leave them upside down.
However, I just signed a lease and will take delivery of my new 06 Limited tomorrow. I'm one of those people who never thought I'd lease a car. I always thought of leases as the financial instrument of people who trade cars every 3-4 years and only want to pay for what they use. If you've already made the decision to live that high on the depreciation curve then leasing probably makes sense. However, if you're a "buy and hold" type like me then owning the car always felt better.
SO, as I planned the purchase of my new Avalon I was thinking loan all the way. That is, until, I met with my financial planner. Since the car will be used in my business, he recommended a 3 year lease with an increased mileage allowance to drive down the residual and then purchase the car at termination. This lets me move the cost out of my capital budget and into operating expenses for better tax treatment.
Per Consumer Reports recommendations, I shopped for a lease before going to the dealership. I found one through leasecompare.com that has a money factor of .00225 (5.4%) which is better than the best loan rates I've seen. BTW, I heartily recommend leasecompare.com. They have been excellent. After making my "cash" deal on the car (more about that soon in the Avalon Prices & buying experience forum) I invited the dealership's finance manager to meet or beat my lease terms. After an 1.5 hours of head scratching (and no pressure to me) he finally admitted he couldn't touch it and congratulated me on getting such good terms.
Granted, my objective here is somewhat different than the typical lease. But after looking at this scenario and comparing it to a straight purchase, the total cash outlay with the lease was less than $1000 more than a straight purchase while the tax benefits will far outweigh that.
Now I'm just counting the hours until my new Avalon is delivered tomorrow.
Overall, however, I think too many folks end up being swayed by payment size and get in trouble with leases.
I absolutely agree. The central concept of a lease is to "pay for what you use". Unfortunately, many consumer leases are designed to minimize payments (and maximize sales) such that they don't cover the real depreciation. AND, buried inside the fog of the lease terms is the fact that the interest rate (money factor) is higher than market rates for loans.
All in all, I think most consumer leases as they are currently sold are a fantastic deal for... the DEALERSHIP and the FINANCE COMPANY but not the consumer.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to look at the hardware on the road and see that it's out of sync with what we know about average income.
abfisch
I was reading on a Canadian website that Lexus provided an ECU fix for the hesitation problem on the ES330 for the Japanese and Canadian market only. The fix was not applied to US models because of emission compliance. Is it possible that the Canadian Avalon's are tuned slightly different than the US ones?
Regarding leasing - very good leasing deals can be had if you know how to calculate a lease! Most people have no idea how to calculate the cost of a lease which leaves plenty of room for dealers to hide money. I have leased over the recent years and I always put together a spreadsheet that calculates both the total lease and total loan costs, and the cost difference is actually negligible in total dollars - if you know what you are doing. The advantage of a lease is that you have less money up front, the use of more of your money during the lease period, and the tax advantage. The leasing companies offer low buy-out rates at the end of the lease because they don't want the car back, and the residuals are often negotiable at the end of the lease if you purchase it then. Also, manufacturer subsidized leases can be excellent deals.
It all comes down to knowing how to calculate the lease terms up front.
Absolutely true, of course, all other factors being equal - with things such as the VVT and electronic controls that allow our Avalons to produce 70 more HP and better mpg than the Avalons of 2004 and earlier. One of the (possibly few) advantages of this electronic invasion that we are all experiencing with our cars.
The price we are all paying - vehicles that are sometimes impossible to diagnose when they do have problems, a hit and miss repair method (even by supposed experts) something akin to fixing a computer or a TV, overzealous control systems that may actually be dangerous etc.. While I certainly enjoy my HP and my 27 mpg - I still wonder if we all may end up paying too much for all this technology?
Well, that's interesting news. There is a Technical Service bulletin for an ECU fix for U.S. hesitation problems, too, however, there has been inconsistency in how well it works -- some say the problem is fixed, others say it is fixed only temporarily, and others have no improvement or even worsening of the problem. I have also heard that stringent emissions requirements could be hindering Toyota coming up with a better fix. Do you have link for that website?
The Avalon needs more horsepower like Howard Stern needs more Sirius stock. What the Avalon needs is aftermarket suspension parts which are not yet out there as far as I can tell. I'd like better shocks/struts/bushings to improve handling for my 05 XLS. Anybody know something?
Deannie
Thanks for any response.
zekeman1
he didn't have much to say, the service manager said noisy
lifters are happy lifters, and that he did not think it would lead to engine faults. I have two mechanic friends that listened to it separately and both said they would not worry about it. They said it's not correct but of no big concern. So I will listen to one of my mechanic friends who said if it is something bad it will get worse during warranty, so for me wait and see.
Mike
For those who are watching here and are about to take the plunge, see my (long) post in the Avalon Prices & Buying Experience forum for details on what, where & how much.
I'm off to put some miles on this baby then I'll be back as a contributor!
Tom
Try 16 to 32 ounces of Marvel Mystery Oil in the crankcase to quiet valve train and bottom end noises. Don't overfill past the full mark on the dipstick. MMO is an old mechanic trick. Buy it at any auto parts store, supermarket, Wal Mart, etc..
Put whatever's left (up to 1 pint or so - follow directions on the container) in the gas tank at fillup. Pour in MMO when the tank's empty, then fill the tank with gas; not when the tank's full. Happy injectors.
You shouldn't valve train and bottom end noises on a fairly new car. My 300M has over 90k on it and I have no noise at all and it runs smooth as silk.
If other Avalon owners dont have this problem, then Toyota should be responsible for fixing it right.