I have read with keen interest the posts related to pricing, negotiating, etc. I appreciate that dealers are in business to make a profit. I just want to make sure that I pay a reasonable price and not get soaked. So my question: How exactly is the advertising handled. I have heard about negotiating from the invoice price, but the advertising is a dealer add-on. Of course I own an Avalon so I really was not a "beneficiary" of their "campaign".
So, I hear the DEALER sets that price. But that you should negotiate from the invoice price. Is this an after invoice price. The dealer can provide a nice discount from MSRP or say "I am just charging $800 over invoice" and than tag on $500-$1000 for advertising, or processing fees. How do you deal with that. I am sorry but I have been confused by some of the comments earlier. Many thanks!
In my own view, price negotiation is an adversarial process in which the parties are trying to find a point where each will be satisfied that he or she got the best deal possible from the other party at that time. What does it matter about the components such as tax and processing fee? What matters is how much you have to pay for that car, as configured. Anything the salesman knows better than you, such as those components or the value of a trade-in, simply gives him an advantage. If you refuse to negotiate the components and stick to the out-the-door cost you should end up doing better...which is to say, you are more likely to have a good feeling (even if to someone else you got taken). What else matters?
Personally, I do my research first on the Kelly and Edmunds than I average the two when it comes to price for a trade in. Then if the invoice is available for the new car I decide what I feel would be a great price especially on a new car. I list the taxes, administrative fees and all incidentals, than when I have a total figure, I say this is what I will pay for the car driving it out knowing there will be no other added costs. I find this works well for me, they seem to understand I educated myself, they may not like it because they realize you know what you want, but i find in this manner there isn't any discussion, either they come back and say okay or no. It's done in a respectful way and in the end I believe it's appreciated by everyone.
A lot of these sales questions and comments would be better placed - and have already been answered - in discussions on our Smart Shopper board. We are here to talk about the car itself, not shopping techniques, price negotiation, etc. Those asking questions about those sorts of things will learn all about them over on that board - it's all being discussed right now.
One further note - the insults that have been going on in here are not appropriate. If you don't like what someone has posted and you feel you need to respond, you should email the host instead of attacking the person.
See #3 in the Rules of the Road linked at the top.
Back on 2/25 I wrote: "Unlike my 2003 Avalon, which is perfectly smooth when I accelerate from a standing stop, the '05 Avalon jerked slightly each time I initially gave it some gas." So yesterday I took another test drive, this time in an XLS (same powertrain, of course.) No slight jerk. Perfectly smooth. I couldn't even replicate the previous acceleration annoyance. However, the ride was noticeably noisier and a bit harsher. I'd ascribe it to different tires, which can make a significant difference in sound transmission. (To the poster dismayed by his noisy new XLS: I suggest getting a couple of new Goodyear Assurance tires - they're the rare tire with both excellent handling and a smooth ride - for the front, and, if that's an improvement, a couple more for the rear. That's a lot cheaper than selling the car or curing an ulcer.) My sales guy confirmed that individual cars can have surprising variability; he sees it all the time. So his suggestion is to never take delivery until thoroughly testing the car you intend to buy. I ordered the specific color-scheme I want on an XL (he'll look for an allocation switch in Orange and L.A. County). The $500 deposit is refundable if the test drive I plan to take disappoints. Of possible interest: I offered $1,200 below MSRP and the dealership accepted. My guess is that I wouldn't have done much better on an XL because their profit is thinner than on the more feature-laden models. An irony is that I actually prefer fabric to the leather-trimmed seats.
A person after the same. I love it. Please let us know how the XL is once you get it. While it is not the best policy to put two different sets of tires on a car, as it changes the handling characteristics, the point is well taken about road noise. Although, this is a hidden cost cutting measure that manufacturers take and Toyota is no exception.
I've read most the posts on here as well as articles on the new Avalon. Not until I think the article in the USA Today did I see mention that the dual exhaust on the new Avalon is just cosmetic. It goes to the back in a single pipe which splits into the two outlets. I feel somewhat deceived by this and don't understand why it hasn't been covered before. I'm not just sour grapes like a lot of the nitpicking going on in here. I think some of it is by salesmen of other makes of cars that are just jealous that the new Avalon is so good. I am taking delivery of my Avalon Limited this week.
ATT:justme. I feel that you should NOT allow the Tax,Tags& Title fees to get involved in your delivered "Out-The-Door" price negotiations. Administrative and Processing fees are part of the real cost of car and must be considered. Some dealers will even quote prices without including the freight or admin fees.
Having one main exhaust feeding two outlets is a very common set up on cars. It essentially accomplishes the same thing as real duels. The exhaust gases usually pass through two mufflers instead of one, this greatly reduces back pressure which is what duels do!!
Nearly every car maker is doing the "looks" on the exhaust, to include Cadillac (STS with FOUR exhaust), Corvette, Ferrari, BMW, etc. etc.. So, do not be concerned and moreover, give thanks for not having to pay for replacement of two complete exhaust systems down the road!
Misunderstanding, perhaps; deception? No. Certainly, the correct information has been available to the buyer who (literally) keeps his eyes open: the interactive Avalon model at Toyota.com allows you to flip the car upside down and look at the exhaust system for yourself! Also, the Avalon brochure that's been out for a month says "dual exhaust outlets" NOT "dual exhausts". The Avalon update available last November on this Forum mentioned dual mufflers, but did not specify completely duplicated systems. Enjoy your new Avalon!
Can anyone till me how the 2005 Avalon handles in winter driving conditions. I have not seen any comments. I plan to buy a 2005 Toyota Avalon Limited to replace my 1998 XLS. Any comments .
littlejohn600 and just me - for further discussion of this issue, please visit our Smart Shopper board - I'm sure you'll find an appropriate discussion in which to continue.
I have had my new XL 2005 Avalon for two weeks and have been through plenty of snow here in the Northeast. Haven't experienced any problems driving, braking, or road handling. Love the car so far (traded 2000 Chrysler300M). Paid MSRP and probably should have shopped around more, next time...
Specifically, where would one find discussion regarding pricing, etc. as it relates to the 2005 Avalon on the Smart Shopper board? I noticed discussions concerning a variety of vehicles on this board; nothing specific to Avalon. Please advise. Thank you.
Just "ordered" my touring model, my dealer had one on allocation with remote start and I'm adding XM radio and auto-dimming mirror. Should have it in about 2 weeks. Thanks for everyone's comments and info on this forum !
Question about the XM, since the dealer is/was going to install it and it didn't come from the factory the cost was $449.00 (web site option price) + installation of about $300. I've order the XM module from parts (suggested by my rep) and I'm going to install it myself. Has anyone else done this ? My sales rep is my cousin so I know I'm not getting snowed...
Thanks ! Can't wait for the car, by the way I'm turning in my leased Mercedes c320 for the avalon.
I think XL with 215/60R16 tires is likely to give smoother and less noisy ride (at the cost of handling) than 215/55R17 tires, available in Touring, XLS and Limited models.
Personally, I am a bit puzzled at this tendency towards large diameter wheels that often come at the cost of sidewall height. For most of us handling is not everything. We would gladly accept increased ride comfort and less noise at the cost of some handling.
The comments and questions here about shopping techniques, invoice prices, advertising fees and so forth are generic in nature and they are all covered in various discussions on the Smart Shopper board. Looking through the active discussion list at that link should be very helpful in finding a shopping subject that is relevant to what is on your mind. And don't forget that nearly all of our discussions have quite a history and that the "Search This Discussion" feature on the page bar will turn up links to lots of helpful posts under any given topic title.
There is a specific Toyota Avalon: Prices Paid & Buying Experiences discussion where member are sharing what they paid for their Avalon along with whether they had a good or a bad buying experience at a specific dealership. (Tip - the Prices Paid/Buying Experience discussions are just that - they are not "how to shop for an Avalon". That subject is covered in the generic discussions, because it is a, yup, generic experience for the most part.)
Just to point out for everyone's benefit, the search features on the left side of the page are really excellent. A Make/Model search for the Avalon turned up that particular Prices Paid discussion that I just linked within a second or two, and the keyword search will turn up links to just about any automotive-related subject you can think of.
Hope this helps!! If anyone has further specific questions about what belongs where, please feel free to email me - I'll be very happy to point you in any appropriate direction.
Just tried the board you recommended...and no mention of the 2005 Avalon...how about leaving discussions of the 2005 Avalon right here, even though the talk will be on invoices and pricing. It seems that the new Avalon is being treated in a special way by Toyota...and this may really be the proper forum where all of us interested folk can participate. Thanks for listening (reading??)....Wes
Sure, we can talk about the Avalon here, no problem with that.
What was going on is that the general questions and comments about shopping methods, what does invoice pricing mean, etc., were shifting our focus from our subject vehicle to subjects that are being discussed in more appropriate places. And IN those more appropriate places the questions that were being asked here have already been addressed and the folks who are asking the questions can find lots of helpful information by looking in all the right places!
If we keep to all things Avalon here, we're doing the right thing.
I have 4 Blizzak snow tires on my 95 Avalon. Is there any opinion on if snow tires will be needed on my 2005 Avalon with all the traction control stuff.
This trend towards larger wheel sizes is more of a styling fad than anything else. There is no clear-cut correlation between wheel size and handling performance. Just a few years ago, all-out sports cars had 14 or 15 inch wheels, now family sedans have to have 17 and 18 inchers. The only thing for certain with larger wheels is that you'll pay more for tires.
I also have an xls coming which has the jbl synthesis xm radio ready feature and would like to have the xm tuner and antenna installed by my sound shop. Could you share the part #for the xm tuner which is installed by the dealer? There are better and smaller antennas available than the monstrosity which I have seen on the trunk lid of the avalon-there are also better places to install the antenna. Thanks, Cbateman
Will someone who has taken delivery of an 05 Limited, please explain what self leveling HID headlamps means. I am familiar with HID but not self leveling!
I'll get the part number for you, I also have a really small antenna that came with another XM radio I have, plus even my cousin said that service must install the antenna on the corner on the trunk, I'll attempt the install myself....
...feels a bit low to me. I finally got a chance to sit in one for awhile and really test out the comfort. All seats were exceptionally comfortable and the back seat especially roomy. I found the position of the steering wheel a bit low, almost awkwardly low. I tried lowering the seat but I prefer a higher driving position. Has anyone else found this to be true (I'm another tall one at 6'2").
I saw the new April Motor Trend Magazine today. The article on the Avalon is extra special All pluses, really a great recommendation for the Avalon. Ride super smooth etc., just like mine with no hesitation in my tranny. Read it friends, you will be blown away by this writer, of course it's a good feeling reading positives, and not getting into the dash doesn't line up exactly, trivia, this article is superb. Go read it for those that bought the Avalon, you will be happy.
"There is no clear-cut correlation between wheel size and handling performance."
I think for a given car, larger wheel size means firmer (and noisier) ride but better handling.
So in this context 2005+ Avalon XL is likely to have smoother and less noisier ride compared to XLS (assuming everything else remains the same). Limited is a different animal, as it has acoustic-tuned (noise reduction) window glasses.
I believe federal transportation laws require that all HID lights be self-leveling. Basically, the self-leveling mechanism ensures that these high intensity lights project parallel to the ground ALL the time.
Otherwise, the HID lights, depending upon the slope of the road may end up projecting straight into the driver's eyes of the oncoming traffic -- temporarily blinding him/her.
So these days by default the HID lights are always self-leveling. Some vehicles now offer HID lights that also rotate with the steering wheel (still self-leveling). With this ability the driver can see around the curves better (Lexus RX 330) offers this capability.
'Only' 70 inches. The new Avalon has plenty of leg room, but head room is less than my 96. Went to the dealer yesterday for a second look at a Limited.
I had my old 96 with me yesterday and found the new Avalon trunk to be smaller, the rear seat had more knee room, but three inches less head room (my head just touched the roof in back), the passenger front seat is too high for me and unlike my 96, does not have any up and down control. The controls for the Nav system are in a pull out panel that left a painful imprint on my right knee. In addition, the cup holder cover opens the wrong way for the driver, making a catch the cup situation probable.
I like the power, the looks, the rest of the features, and feel, but the car is 7 inches longer with a smaller trunk and no significant increase - and a few decreases - in interior room.
My current vehicle, with a roof-mounted satellite antenna, gets excellent reception. But placement of the antenna on the trunk lid for 2005 Avalon seems a bit odd. That said, "center-mounted," as depicted in previous posts, is probably acceptable to me IF reception is not compromised. Can anyone provide feedback as to the reliability of XM satellite radio reception with the trunk-mounted antenna?
mjb56, I don't want to be imprudent here but did you try adjusting the steering wheel? It telescopes and goes up and down. The up/down adjustment is just below on the steering column. Try this and you will find a wide range of adjustment. : ) Mackabee
"Can anyone provide feedback as to the reliability of XM satellite radio reception with the trunk-mounted antenna?"
jl618,
XM radio reception with the antenna mounted on the center rear of the trunk (by the rear window) is excellent. When my dealer did the XM installation (mine did not come factory installed) the antenna was originally placed on the passenger side of the trunk lid. I had them move it to the center rear for better symmetry. The reception was great both before and after relocation.
Maybe this car doesn't work for you if the headroom for you doesn't work. I'm sure there are other models that will fit your frame. Try the Ford 500, they say it's big inside and a larger trunk. Good Luck
"If you don't mind me asking, how much did your dealer charge for the XM radio and installation ?"
techyman,
The XM Radio installation was part of the deal that I made when I purchased my Limited. I paid MSRP, but got them to add the XM Radio, Mudguards, and All Weather Mats at no additional charge. It was the first '05 Avalon that was received by my local dealer. I know that I could have waited for several months and saved some money, but I had a local buyer for my '01 Avalon so made the deal.
I have been very happy with the new Avalon. I am 6'4.5" tall and have had no problem with headroom, either in the front seats or the back. IMHO, the new Avalon is incrementally better than the previous generation in almost every way.
Ordered my Avalon the other night...very excited. It is a loaded XLS Limited in Indigo Ink Pearl. Because I was impatient to get one I had to accept that this is a very hot car and could only get $1000 off MSRP, so I asked them to throw in XM radio, which they agreed to do. I recently bought a Sienna there, which may have helped. Anyway, an extra step was to get Toyota to agree to this order--and I must wait four to six weeks for the car. The dealer has not had any Limited on the lot for a full day, and now all are sold before they arrive. I feel fortunate under the circumstances.
Good luck on you recent purchase. If your new car is any thing like mine you will absolutely love it. Go read the new Motor Trend magazine article about the new Avalon, it will make you feel real good even before you get the car. Regardless of what some people refer to as hesitation on the transmission, it doesn't happen with mine, I think the article refers to that as well. Also note about the head room from the prior post, where he is 6 foot 4 and a half and no head problem, me around six feet plenty of room. So this really comes down to personal preference and some ones comfort level might be different from someone else's. Everyone makes his decision based on what they analyze in their own way. For me, every time I get into my XLS, I look at the color taupe seating, the light color wood and the clean lines with the little doors covering everything and the aluminum saddle at each door with Avalon printed on it and I feel for the first time in my life I am driving a luxury car. It's better than my 04 and the power, WOW. The Motor Trend article said the road test took them from 0 to 60 in 6.5 seconds, thats slightly less than what Toyota says (6.6). And my friend it's smooth, and quiet, just the tires make some noise, no wind noise that I can detect. Okay, I guess I am just so Happy with it, that I am congratulating you for your decision, I bet you can't wait.
Unless the law has changed, not all HID's are auto leveling. I own a 2002 Acura TL-S and a 2003 Nissan Murano - both with HID's and neither are auto-leveling. Although the Murano does have manual level adjustment(just in case you have a lot of weight in the back, or are towing something)
Good luck on you recent purchase. If your new car is any thing like mine you will absolutely love it. ... I bet you can't wait.
You're right, I am very eager to acquire this car. For one thing, I have YET to see a Limited in person. Dealers can't keep them in Northern Virginia. But I drove the Touring and an XLS. After the Touring drive I wanted to keep my 02, with its smooth ride and big-car feel. But the XLS showed me that the 05 Av is all that I love about my 02 and a whole lot more. Naturally I expect the Limited to be that much better.
I never drove the touring but decided against it from what I read regarding feeling all the bumps or more so than the XLS or Limited. Honestly I never test drove either car and still placed my order for the XLS just by reading the specifications. I realized the trunk was slightly smaller but everything else seemed just fine even though the front leg room seemed a half inch less, no big deal, but after actually getting my car it had so much more room then my 04 that i asked mackabee who explained that there is more leg room, so I wasn't nuts. I bought the car without driving it based on my faith in Toyota and my other cars that they would not make the Avalon worse but only better. And it's exactly how my car is handling. I also enjoy the new styling exterior as well. I have no idea how anyone can criticize it. The only thing I might have done differently is to have bought the Limited because of the drivers seat ability to increase by a couple of inches for more thigh support. Of course the Limited has other nice features like the windshield cutting down on sound which isn't much to begin with in my XLS and the rear seat cup holder door accent hidden and storage as well. YOU HAVE MADE A WISE CHOICE AND I WISH YOU HEALTHY DRIVING. You will love it as I do mine. The color you selected by the way, I saw one, honestly, it was BEAUTIFUL.
"Unless the law has changed, not all HID's are auto leveling. I own a 2002 Acura TL-S and a 2003 Nissan Murano - both with HID's and neither are auto-leveling."
I think, this auto-leveling requirement law for HIDs was passed sometime in 2003/2004. You probably grand fathered in.
Comments
So, I hear the DEALER sets that price. But that you should negotiate from the invoice price. Is this an after invoice price. The dealer can provide a nice discount from MSRP or say "I am just charging $800 over invoice" and than tag on $500-$1000 for advertising, or processing fees. How do you deal with that. I am sorry but I have been confused by some of the comments earlier. Many thanks!
One further note - the insults that have been going on in here are not appropriate. If you don't like what someone has posted and you feel you need to respond, you should email the host instead of attacking the person.
See #3 in the Rules of the Road linked at the top.
Thanks.
So yesterday I took another test drive, this time in an XLS (same powertrain, of course.) No slight jerk. Perfectly smooth. I couldn't even replicate the previous acceleration annoyance. However, the ride was noticeably noisier and a bit harsher. I'd ascribe it to different tires, which can make a significant difference in sound transmission. (To the poster dismayed by his noisy new XLS: I suggest getting a couple of new Goodyear Assurance tires - they're the rare tire with both excellent handling and a smooth ride - for the front, and, if that's an improvement, a couple more for the rear. That's a lot cheaper than selling the car or curing an ulcer.) My sales guy confirmed that individual cars can have surprising variability; he sees it all the time. So his suggestion is to never take delivery until thoroughly testing the car you intend to buy. I ordered the specific color-scheme I want on an XL (he'll look for an allocation switch in Orange
and L.A. County). The $500 deposit is refundable if the test drive I plan to take disappoints.
Of possible interest: I offered $1,200 below MSRP and the dealership accepted. My guess is that I wouldn't have done much better on an XL because their profit is thinner than on the more feature-laden models. An irony is that I actually prefer fabric to the leather-trimmed seats.
Sounds like you got a good value.
abfisch
I feel that you should NOT allow the Tax,Tags& Title fees to get involved in your delivered "Out-The-Door" price negotiations. Administrative and Processing fees are part of the real cost of car and must be considered. Some dealers will even quote prices without including the freight or admin fees.
So, do not be concerned and moreover, give thanks for not having to pay for replacement of two complete exhaust systems down the road!
Thanks!
Question about the XM, since the dealer is/was going to install it and it didn't come from the factory the cost was $449.00 (web site option price) + installation of about $300. I've order the XM module from parts (suggested by my rep) and I'm going to install it myself. Has anyone else done this ? My sales rep is my cousin so I know I'm not getting snowed...
Thanks ! Can't wait for the car, by the way I'm turning in my leased Mercedes c320 for the avalon.
Personally, I am a bit puzzled at this tendency towards large diameter wheels that often come at the cost of sidewall height. For most of us handling is not everything. We would gladly accept increased ride comfort and less noise at the cost of some handling.
There is a specific Toyota Avalon: Prices Paid & Buying Experiences discussion where member are sharing what they paid for their Avalon along with whether they had a good or a bad buying experience at a specific dealership. (Tip - the Prices Paid/Buying Experience discussions are just that - they are not "how to shop for an Avalon". That subject is covered in the generic discussions, because it is a, yup, generic experience for the most part.)
Just to point out for everyone's benefit, the search features on the left side of the page are really excellent. A Make/Model search for the Avalon turned up that particular Prices Paid discussion that I just linked within a second or two, and the keyword search will turn up links to just about any automotive-related subject you can think of.
Hope this helps!! If anyone has further specific questions about what belongs where, please feel free to email me - I'll be very happy to point you in any appropriate direction.
Thanks!
What was going on is that the general questions and comments about shopping methods, what does invoice pricing mean, etc., were shifting our focus from our subject vehicle to subjects that are being discussed in more appropriate places. And IN those more appropriate places the questions that were being asked here have already been addressed and the folks who are asking the questions can find lots of helpful information by looking in all the right places!
If we keep to all things Avalon here, we're doing the right thing.
'kay?
psy
I think for a given car, larger wheel size means firmer (and noisier) ride but better handling.
So in this context 2005+ Avalon XL is likely to have smoother and less noisier ride compared to XLS (assuming everything else remains the same). Limited is a different animal, as it has acoustic-tuned (noise reduction) window glasses.
Otherwise, the HID lights, depending upon the slope of the road may end up projecting straight into the driver's eyes of the oncoming traffic -- temporarily blinding him/her.
So these days by default the HID lights are always self-leveling. Some vehicles now offer HID lights that also rotate with the steering wheel (still self-leveling). With this ability the driver can see around the curves better (Lexus RX 330) offers this capability.
I had my old 96 with me yesterday and found the new Avalon trunk to be smaller, the rear seat had more knee room, but three inches less head room (my head just touched the roof in back), the passenger front seat is too high for me and unlike my 96, does not have any up and down control. The controls for the Nav system are in a pull out panel that left a painful imprint on my right knee. In addition, the cup holder cover opens the wrong way for the driver, making a catch the cup situation probable.
I like the power, the looks, the rest of the features, and feel, but the car is 7 inches longer with a smaller trunk and no significant increase - and a few decreases - in interior room.
Source: http://theautochannel.com/F/news/2005/03/01/000545.html
It also says they are paying $850 - $900 for installation.
Toyota reasoning must be that if it's good enough for the LS430 it must be good enough for the Avalon.
Thanks for the info!! I have a Limited coming soon!! This will be my first ride with HID headlights.
: )
Mackabee
jl618,
XM radio reception with the antenna mounted on the center rear of the trunk (by the rear window) is excellent. When my dealer did the XM installation (mine did not come factory installed) the antenna was originally placed on the passenger side of the trunk lid. I had them move it to the center rear for better symmetry. The reception was great both before and after relocation.
If you don't mind me asking, how much did your dealer charge for the XM radio and installation ?
Thanks !
techyman,
The XM Radio installation was part of the deal that I made when I purchased my Limited. I paid MSRP, but got them to add the XM Radio, Mudguards, and All Weather Mats at no additional charge. It was the first '05 Avalon that was received by my local dealer. I know that I could have waited for several months and saved some money, but I had a local buyer for my '01 Avalon so made the deal.
I have been very happy with the new Avalon. I am 6'4.5" tall and have had no problem with headroom, either in the front seats or the back. IMHO, the new Avalon is incrementally better than the previous generation in almost every way.
You're right, I am very eager to acquire this car. For one thing, I have YET to see a Limited in person. Dealers can't keep them in Northern Virginia. But I drove the Touring and an XLS. After the Touring drive I wanted to keep my 02, with its smooth ride and big-car feel. But the XLS showed me that the 05 Av is all that I love about my 02 and a whole lot more. Naturally I expect the Limited to be that much better.
Another words -- will it run on 'regular?'
I think, this auto-leveling requirement law for HIDs was passed sometime in 2003/2004. You probably grand fathered in.