Ok, B, instead of confusing people with specious arguments, why don't you just say that Bose is building these systems to a low price point like you did in the Audi thread?
Having a Cary Audio/B&W Ref/Paradigm Ref system at home and being a long term audio buff as well, we could talk anechoic FR, SNR,Watts, Efficiency etc...all we want, but the real answer is "what do you expect for the $500 Infiniti pays us"... a sum that does not even pay for the dedicated power circuits and power conditioning/protection on my home system!
Considering the price point, I think you've done well.
Seriously, try not over-enunciating "home" and just speak normally and a bit more softly. It solved the "Dial 0" vs. "Dial Home" problem for me. Now if I could just get that little buzz/hum in the right side (not sure which one) speaker to knock it off...
And I better not have ever said Bose is "building these systems to a low price point." The descriptor "low" means different things to different people.
It would be more accurate to say automotive suppliers design build to a price point that reflects a very complex set of tradeoffs and negotiations ... in which things like the supplier's desire to offer more performance is not necessarily the most important.
That's the nice thing about the retail market. You want to spend more, no problem. With OEM audio, the car makerchoses how much 'you' want to spend and what you get.
Finally, I have to say that the quality of audio in any OEM system is subject to MANY factors. Some important ones to consider are: How cooperative is the automaker in accomodating good acoustic design? Don't think it so ridiculous that an automaker would try to propose a speaker grill that is acoustically opaque!. Sometimes the car planner is in love with audio and wants to introduce a whole new level of audio experience to the car buying public ... and will fight the bean counters to make great audio. Sometimes the car planner doesn't give a sh*t, and squashes the best intentions of the supplier-side audio manager.
I don't know if this has already been asked, but I'm blurry-eyed reading through all of the posts...
I'm considering the M45 Premium, but noticed something I didn't like AT ALL about the rear controls. I'm wondering if anyone has seen a way around this:
It appears that the volume controls in the rear are simply an extension of the front controls. When the rear passengers adjust them, the front speakers follow suit. Is there any way to have the rear sets get their own volume level?
The same thing goes for temerature settings: when either rear passenger changes their A/C, BOTH front zones move up or down by the same amount (even if the A/C is in dual mode!!) I would expect the rear zone to be a third zone for the car - independent from the front.
I also have a few other quesitons:
1) Can rear-seated passengers truly watch a DVD on the flip-down screen (using headphones) while the driver listens to the radio (satellite or terrestrial)?
2) While driving, are any NAV funtions locked out?
3) Is it true that the AC voice commands are for temperature only (no fan)?
4) On the two models I test-drove, the dealer put on some demo DVD encoded to Dolby 5.1. Of course, it sounded awesome. But when I switched over to plain old radio, the speakers in the seat seemed to not work worth a darn. He mentioned something about needing to play 5.1-encoded CD's for best sound. WTF? :surprise: My question is: are the speakers near your head actually putting out good sound with plain old CDs?
This car drives so well, I'm just put off by some of the half-baked features:
I need the entertainment package for the kids, but the drop-down screen blocks the rear-view mirror almost completely. The oddly-shaped M headrests taper in the back and therefore cannot accomodate LCD screens. I'm sure the unusual shape is due to the extra speakers.
Speaking of which...the seat-mounted speakers appear to be a gimmick, as they seem to be almost useless. (I hope your experiences differ with this.)
They have a ton of voice commands, but are missing some obvious ones.
The Premium package adds full luxury to the rear passengers, but the rear controls are simply satellites of the front console. For the extra cost, the rear passengers should truly have their own experience (as Infiniti promises). A single console-mounted anemic air vent just doesn't cool that rear area. And Jeez, for the premium option price, it should include ventilated rear seats.
Achingly absent are rear side sunshades, although they are available or standard on every one of the competitor's cars.
The Nav system is great as usual, but is missing real-time traffic conditions (which should be standard with any Nav/satellite system by now). Granted - only Acura has this now, but automakers must make this available very soon. Infiniti would be wise to offer it as an upgrade to current owners in the near future.
If some of the 'missing' features are actually there, but hidden in the owner's manual, PLEASE let me know. I really want the M45 to be my 3rd Infiniti to date. I hope that by the 2008 model, the following will be avilable: * Rear side-sunshades (and rear power sunshade moved to Journey package) * Real-time traffic conditions on NAV added to Tech package * Rear seat coolers added to Premium package * Better sound (or elimination of headrest speakers) * Wider voice command library - standard * Entertainment system removed from Premium package * Front bumper radar parking sensors added to Tech package * Additional air vents for rear passengers (mounted above doors - a'la LS430)
Now, wouldn't all of you M35/M45 owners find these to be icing on the cake? I know that would make the M more feature-laden than the Q, but does anyone actually buy Q's anymore? They seem like a whole lot less of a car for about 5K more than a Premium M45.
Because I have very young kids, I decided not to buy the Premium package so that they would *NOT* play (huh.. destroy) all the rear controls. So I can't comment on that. I also got my windows tinted, which look a whole lot better (IMO) than shades and are also kids-proof. For the CDs, some I have play extremely well, with very little distortion even with the volume almost to the max, with sound coming from the nearby speakers (the little they make is perceptible and improve the overall listening experience). Btw I wish they would also add radar sensors in the rear, because I may backup (slowly) while watching for cars on either side and I might miss a small moving object that jsut ran right behind me (like a kid on a bike).
I have an M35x that I've only put premium into, but I have the same question. I read the manual about the recommendations and it's very vague. What does loss of performance mean specifically? I'm far from a gearhead so I'm not sure I'd notice if it went down to 260hp from 280 or it took 6.5 sec to get to 60mph on regular gas as opposed to 6.3 on premium. As I understand it, regular gas won't void the warranty or anything, and it's not as clear as it is on my mom's mustang gt that premium is required.
You wrote: On the two models I test-drove, the dealer put on some demo DVD encoded to Dolby 5.1. Of course, it sounded awesome. But when I switched over to plain old radio, the speakers in the seat seemed to not work worth a darn. He mentioned something about needing to play 5.1-encoded CD's for best sound. WTF? My question is: are the speakers near your head actually putting out good sound with plain old CDs?
Let's talk about the DVD capability. The technology system is capable of playing back DVD-A in DVD-A format. It is also capable of playing back other format, including DTS, Dolby Digital (AC-3 is less ambiguous), etc. DVD's are multi-format when it comes to the audio tracks. The vehicle audio system should default to the highest "resolution" format possible for whatever disc you insert. If it was a DVD-Video it could very well be that AC-3 was the best it could do. If you played a DVD-A, you would get DVD-A ... This was the design of the system, but it does not take into account the possibility that some headunits with software bugs got into the field.
Now about the seat speakers. These devices are utilized for optimizing a number of things, including sound stage spaciousness and imaging, and they provide a capability for doing this that goes beyond what can be done with normal audio systems. This optimization is actually done differently for different signal sources. Why? One easy example is to compare CD to DVD. True discrete 5.1 (DVD-A) can have instruments, vocalists, and other things specifically and precisely placed behind you. The seat mounted speakers are used to help you hear those things with the right location and tonal balance. In contrast, CD's do not have specific music info that is supposed to be coming from only behind you. So the seat speakers are utilized in a different way because the desired sound stage is different. This is why you hear different amounts of sound coming out of the seat speakers for a DVD or a radio broadcast.
One other thing to remember. The seat speakers are not meant to be played so you distinctly notice that there is a little speaker a few inches from your ear. That is what you would get if you just stuck some speakers on the seats and cranked up the gain. It WOULD be unnatural. Instead, Bose uses several proprietary DSP technologies to help those close speakers create a large/wide/natural rear sound stage.
Personally - I've had wood steering wheels in my past 2 cars, and love them. No, they're not hot or cold, or hard to me, they feel great. I wouldn't want a car without at least some section of the wheel done in wood. I'm looking for a Q-45, which has barely some wood accents in the wheel - and I'm wishing they had finished the job.
Rear audio controls: I let me my kids control the audio from the rear when it's their turn to choose the stations. It's very nice to let them switch around to their favorites without bothering me. When I take my my turn on the station choices, I disable the rear controls: There's a switch for that.
Rear climate controls: This car is advertised as a dual zone climate control car. It's not a four zone car. I believe the Lexus works the same way. There are individual blower volume and directional controls on the rear vents. There's not much more you could do with a dual zone car. But I agree there's not all that much value in this feature. Those rear vents move a lot of air, IMO, and I haven't had any problems at all with the rear passenger comfort. And speaking of rear passenger comfort: I'm 6'1". I tend to sit with my seat way back. and I recently spent a week driving some friends all around the bay area, with a 6'3" friend right behind me. He said he's never been so comfortable in a rear seat, and we both had tons of leg room. No other car in this class could have done that.
Voice command. No current Lexus, BMW, or Mercedes can enter destinations by saying the street address, as the M can. This voice command is the most complete system on the market, by a wide margin. (With the possible exception of Acura, whose voice system is comparable) It appears you can not adjust blower speed with voice command, but after all the blower speed commands are right there on the console.
Watching and listening to DVD while playing the radio. I believe you can go to headphone mode and watch DVD and listen to the DVD on the headphones while others are listening to radio through the speakers.
Nav Traffic. Infiniti has signed an agreement with XM to offer this in the future. No word on such features from Germany, and lexus has yet to implement it, as well.
Surround Sound. Go to: settings > Audio > Bose Center Point There you can turn on center point to get surround sound on CDs etc. You can scroll down from Bose Center Point to CenterPoint volume to adjust that to your liking as well. As an ex musician, who's owned several Lexi including one with Mark Levinson, I'm totally blown away by the quality of this sound system. I do suggest turning the base way up for the best equalization.
Half Baked features. IMO the features of this car are generally richer, better thought out and more user friendly than any competitor, by a huge margin. I can give you a very large list of comparative deficiencies on each of the competitors systems. I own a merecedes and have owned many Lexii including an LS430. Among the big advantages for the M, is best nav in the industry, Best Back Up Monitor, Best Voice command, Best Intelligent Cruise, a much heartier climate control than the most others , a logically arranged console with instant access to all every day controls (requiring hugely less digging through menus than any of the competition.), much more passenger room than any competitor, and countless areas with superb attention to detail. No system is perfect, the M is just a lot closer. AMHO.
I never had a car with a wood wheel, didn't seem to make sense but you seem to like it. It wouldn't kill the M for you because it doesn't have one would it?
Well said msu!!! My point/question about the gasoline was whether the VALUE was there in paying extra for the premium, not saying that it brings me financial hardship one way or the other. As an accountant and economist, I look at it from a utility/value perspective. The same way you would look at buying a good pair of Johnston & Murhpy shoes. If they cost $200 a pair, why would you want to pay $220?? This is the issue I was addressing and some people apparently didn't get it hence the type of responses.
As I do, I'm sure you know as well about the old saying abou "the foold and his money..........."
I always liked the wood steering wheel as well. I thought it was beautiful on my LS430, and was disappointed when it was not available on the M.
Well after driving the M for a while, I have to admit that it really feels better without it.
I agree with Pete. After living with the wood wheel in my '05 LS for the last eight months, I can say that it may look nice, but I really don't like it for driving. It's hot in the summer, cold in the winter, and slippery all the time. And this is despite that I have to admit to generally being a natural wood lover.
Regarding the rosewood in the M, has anyone tried to put more of a shine on the matte finish with some oil or polish or whatever? I am not a big fan of high gloss, but Infiniti may have gone a bit too far the other way for my taste. Just IMHO.
Hey B. I have an M35 Journey with Bose on order. Is there any way I can wire my digital audio player into it? I'm not getting the DVD player so those AUX inputs won't be there. I've been told no. Any ideas?
I've used a good quality wood polish on the wood and it worked well. I liked the wood, but also thought it looked too dull. Now it has a very nice 'glow', not shiny. People seem to like it - they really touch the wood a lot and comment on it.
You said: ---Watching and listening to DVD while playing the radio. I believe you can go to headphone mode and watch DVD and listen to the DVD on the headphones while others are listening to radio through the speakers. ---
On the DVD/headphone- Radio issue, the answer is most certainly YES you can. My daughters have been in the back watching a DVD while my wife and I listen to the radio in the front. Simply activate "headphone mode" (not sure that's the exact name) on the settings and they can listen to theirs while you listen to yours. You'll see a small headphone icon on the right side of the "status" screen.
BTW, the A/C is tremendous. I had to keep my 2000 S500 at 64 degrees to be even passably comfortable in the summer (Chicago area) while I keep my M at 71-74.
As to the satellite/nav traffic, has anyone heard if Sirius is also close to doing anything beyond the local traffic/weather channel they have?
What was the name of the polish you used??? I have used a lemon oil furniture polish on my new M45sport. I like the look but I would like some more "glow". Can you tell me the product you used? Thanks.... By the way..I have had my M45 for 3 months (previous BMW owner) this car is a serious piece of engineeing and IMO smokes anything out there for the price.
I have a new M45 Sport fully loaded with rear DVD. I am a muscian and in addition to the XM radio I have my IPOD attached to the car most of the time. I have found (or so it seems) that you cannot get to the Aux control through the buttons on the dash but only through the remote control. Does anyone else use their IPOD with their car and if so...what are your experiences like?
I have noticed with the XM sat. radio that the seat speakers are intermittent. I went into the surround controls and turned off the centerpoint controls and then the speakers were ok. Is this because the Sat radio is not transmitting in the format that the speakers/system need to operate correctly? It is a real pain to change the settings evey time I change reciever signals..I also use my IPOD alot...what setting do you recommend during IPOD use?
I couldn't agree with you more. To that I would add that many people don't really know what good sound is because they primarily listen to bad systems.
I have found (or so it seems) that you cannot get to the Aux control through the buttons on the dash
You can do exactly what you want with the buttons on the dash, and most of what you want with the steering wheel controls
Here's how you do it the first time: Switching to Aux is a DVD setting, and everything's obvious after that. 1) Hit the DISK button (or steering wheel SOURCE button) until you see DVD on screen. 2) Use the arrow keys to select Settings/Aux on the screen and press enter 3) Press enter again to choose AUX and choose Play AUX
Here's how you do it all other times 1) Use the steering wheel SOURCE button to switch between Radio and AUX. Simple as that.
Note that you'll have to do the first procedure when you want to switch from playing AUX to playing DVD's or vice versa.
Mr. B, can you confirm the Bose Audio Pilot system works the same way as the noise reduction in the Quiet Comfort headphones (synthesizing a counter-wave) or does it simply increase the volume when there is more road noise entering the cabin?
Mr. B, can you confirm the Bose Audio Pilot system works the same way as the noise reduction in the Quiet Comfort headphones (synthesizing a counter-wave) or does it simply increase the volume when there is more road noise entering the cabin?
Good question.
According to the manual: When this item is turned to ON, AudioPilot monitors noise in the passenger compartment with a microphone and compensates for any unpleasant noise.
That would mean active noise cancellation, as with the Quiet Comfort2. Something else to add to our M's extensive features list.
BTW, I have those Bose Quiet Comfort headphones, and they're amazingly effective.
XM does currently transmit any special info for surround sound (although they they've demonstrated that they have the tech to do it.) Also, Centerpoint doesn't use special embedded formating in the source, it generates surround sound from standard audio. My guess, is that the variation you're hearing is a result of varying sound quality on the source tracks, and the way that interacts with CenterPoint.
One thing you can try is to play with the CenterPoint volume adjustment. It's right below CenterPoint in the audio settings screen. Perhaps you can get a setting that works for you. Please let us know how it goes.
I'd also like to hear from mr bose on the subject.
The Quiet Comfort headphones use a combination of good mechanical design and "anti-noise" to reduce the energy of the noise that gets to your ears.
AudioPilot is something different: Go to www.bose.com Type "AudioPilot" into the search box. I believe the second or third result has a good explanation.
BTW, the A/C is tremendous. I had to keep my 2000 S500 at 64 degrees to be even passably comfortable in the summer (Chicago area) while I keep my M at 71-74.
I so agree with you on this, and several reviewers have commented on it as well. In all my experience with Mercedes, BMW, and Lexus the effectiveness of the M's climate control system just blows away the competition.
As to the satellite/nav traffic, has anyone heard if Sirius is also close to doing anything beyond the local traffic/weather channel they have?
Sirius announced plans for a similar service long after XM starting shipping theirs. I spoke to a NavTeq exec who guessed it would be 2007 or 2008 before you start seeing the Sirius system in cars. NavTeq is the supplier of the real time traffic info for XM and Sirius, but it really sounded like just an off the cuff guess on his part.
Centerpoint is a technology (now you've got me sounding like a marketing person!) that provides the user a "bridge" between 2-channel stereo and discrete surround (DVD-A, 5.1 SACD, and arguably AC-3 and DTS).
Centerpoint can be used to very nice effect with 2-channel material that contains "matrixed" or encoded surround information. Dolby ProLogic encoded discs are one example. Centerpoint also can be used to process non-encoded (e.g. normal stereo) 2-channel material, adding a degree of additional spaciousness and some degree of surround. Through these two functions it serves as a bridge to 5.1 discrete surround.
You meant XM does NOT currently transmit any surround info in their signal ... Right. That's what I meant.
Centerpoint can be used to very nice effect with 2-channel material that contains "matrixed" or encoded surround information. Dolby ProLogic encoded discs are one example. Centerpoint also can be used to process non-encoded (e.g. normal stereo) 2-channel material, adding a degree of additional spaciousness and some degree of surround. Through these two functions it serves as a bridge to 5.1 discrete surround.
Thanks for your info on this. The second function (normal stereo) was the one I was referring to for XM. I stand corrected on the first function (application to matrixed audio). That's good to know.
One more question. Do you agree that the varying quality of source recordings (and it's interaction with centerpoint) are likely to be contributing to the intermittent changes in sound level heard on the seat speakers, when using centerpoint with XM?
First, as pointed out by our resident Bose expert, none of us should expect true 'High Fidelity' sound systems for the option price in any of these LPS. Some speaker pairs by themselves can take up all of the cost of this option.
So each of the manufacturers is trying to make a step up, and distinguish themselves from those models who offer 'standard' systems, while still remaining within the reasonable bounds determined by price and the limitations imposed by the cars interior and the wishes of those who are designing this interior.
Those who install or have installed extensive after-market systems are spending a good bit more money to bring their vehicles' sound systems closer to 'high-fidelity', but there are many barriers to overcome, including those mentioned above, road noise, wind noise, seating positions, and a changing environment for many of these factors.
After reading the explanation given on the Bose website for AudioPilot, I come away with two assumptions. First, there is liberal use of indefinite terms, leaving a decent amount of technical information up for conjecture. Second, this technique appears to be based on amplitude(volume) and compression. There is no mention of equalization, nor of active sound cancellation/reduction.
It should be noted that the excellent QC headphones noted by our expert provide excellent sound fidelity, but even their well-designed sound cancellation is much more effective for low frequencies than for midrange or high frequencies. In addition, in-ear monitors (small headsets which sit in the external auditory canals), which merely physically block the ear canals, provide significant increases of noise reduction (10 to 16 dB) above even the best active noise-cancellation cans. There are good physical reasons why midrange and high frequencies are difficult to actively cancel.
The important point of this is that, even were Bose to utilize active noise-cancellation in the car environment, much of that noise is in the mid and high range, and is unlikely to be reduced significantly.
While some refer to the "No highs, no lows, must be Bose" statement, we should all keep in mind that Bose, or any other company working with the manufacturer in this sort of joint venture is constrained by cost and by the priorities of others in the overall design of the vehicle.
For those of us who choose to spend considerably more on aftermarket sound systems, we are well aware of the costs of making significant upgrades, and consider it a fine luxury added to a fine car. There is no free lunch!
As I've mentioned elsewhere, it's time for this depth of audio discussion to move to an appropriate discussion (new or existing) on our Aftermarket & Accessories board.
Let's let this discussion get back to the car itself.
If I might be allowed, I was just trying to clarify some of the questions regarding the AudioPilot function on the M. Since I don't know of it being installed on another vehicle, I guessed that it belonged in this thread. Forgive me if I am mistaken about that.
Sorry, I'm not specifically replying to you, although I see that's what it looked like. I was just addressing the subject itself.
The fact is that the subject of the ins and outs of car - and other - stereos is being beaten to death in many of our general sedans discussions and the place for this level of detail is on our Accessories board.
I'm not doing a very good job of explaining the issue here, so let me start again.
We can talk about the M35/M45 stereo as long as we keep the conversation directly related to the uniqueness of the stereo system in this vehicle and as long as we don't get mired in the depths of the nuances, theories and intense details of stereo systems in general. That "miring" is what is just not appropriate here.
I hope this is a little clearer - I don't mean to put a stop to useful discussion, but I do need to put a stop to that which deviates so far from our purpose here in this general topic.
If anyone has any questions, feel free to email me.
There's a small rectangular cargo net like thing attached to the right side of the transmission hump, at least on the M35x. I have no idea what Infiniti intended it to be used for. Anyone care to venture a guess?
I am also interested in finding out which polish you used. I just tried some Old English Lemon Oil and the result is quite impressive. Definitely achieved a "glow". I suggest you try the polish on one of the rear door panels first to see how you like it.
On the issue of steering wheels I do like the one in my M35x. I only wish it was heated like my previous BMW. That will be the first think I miss when I drive the Infiniti this winter.
Several posters on the forum seem to be mechanical experts, so these questions are for them...
The M's manual says "Infiniti recommends mineral based oils" (pg. 9-5 of the Owner's Manual). Does this mean synthetic oil is explicitly not recommended for the M's engine, even though synthetic exceeds regular oil specs?
Also, there were some posts about changing the oil at the 1,200 mile break-in period (some people recommended extending this period to 1,800 miles) and then letting the engine go to higher revs. Would synthetic oil be recommended for this first accelerated change?
I consider the 3,750-mile / 3-month basic service interval too short and a nuisance. I would like to use synthetic oil and extend the service period to 7,500 miles because my usual driving roughly meets the criteria stated in the manual. From experience with my MB, I would like to use synthetic oil (there was a class action suit against MB that caused them to exclusively adopt synthetic for use with the Flexible Service System, which allows service intervals of about 12k miles in practice).
If synthetic, would Mobil 1 be preferrable to Castrol or other brands?
I purchased the Verizon LG8100 phone yesterday and it paired easily and works well with the M. As with other Verizon phones, there is no address book transfer, but the phone does connect automatically every time you enter and start the car.
I haven't had time to evaluate the audio quality yet but the first report of outgoing sound quality was good.
I chose the LG over the Motorola E815 because I felt the menu layout was more intuitive and I liked the address book setup better with multiple numbers per entry. I also like the way speed dial numbers can be assigned independently of memory location.
What was the name of the polish you used??? I have used a lemon oil furniture polish on my new M45sport. I like the look but I would like some more "glow".
I used "Earth Rite" Furniture Polish. I put a small amount on a lint-free cotton rag to apply and buff with the dry part of the cloth. I've used this product before and like it - it is a very 'gentle' polish with no strong solvents and no strong smell. It leaves a nice glow on the wood. I haven't done any comparison testing, so other brands may work as well. It made a BIG difference the first time I used it, the wood was very dull and flat when I first got the car.
BTW . . . agree about the driving experience. This thing rocks!
BTW, the A/C is tremendous. I had to keep my 2000 S500 at 64 degrees to be even passably comfortable in the summer (Chicago area) while I keep my M at 71-74.
I so agree with you on this, and several reviewers have commented on it as well. In all my experience with Mercedes, BMW, and Lexus the effectiveness of the M's climate control system just blows away the competition.
I agree, I was surprised by the 'anemic A/C' posts. I know experience can vary, but I find the A/C very strong, here in the hot Maryland summer. I usually leave my A/C set on 72-73, where I run most other cars at 69. The Infiniti, if anything seems too cold at times
I did a poll at FA on this very issue. Almost everyone who answered is using synthetic. I'm doing synthetic as well. There is no need to change at less than 7500 unless you driving like a cab. That 3750 stuff is just to make the dealers $. My preference is for Mobil 1. I switched at my first change.
I was able to easily pair the 5600 with the M35x. My service provider is Rogers in Canada. The Canadian Infiniti site does not list the 5600 as a pair-able phone but I had no problem. Also no audio problem at either end of the connection. Would like to be able to use my phone voice tags through the car system but can't. Perhaps there is a way , will keep searching.
If I remember correctly from my first test drive- it has to be a business phone number, and I think the salesman said it goes by a directory address (yellow pages?). When he did the demo with the dealership phone number it worked, charting our path right back there.
As bfeng pointed out, the AudioPilot feature on the M is different from noise cancellation. My mistake. I couldn't find the description of it at bose.com, but using google, I found a pretty good link that explains what it does it in detail.
Basically, the AudioPilot on the M determines the amount of ambient noise in each of various frequency ranges (such as base, mid range etc) and then optimally increases the audio output levels in each of those ranges to best compensate for the noise. The goal is to allow you to hear all of the music all of the time without creating the perception that it's getting any louder.
Pretty sophisticated system, and may be one reason why the M sounds so good.
I started a new discussion of the GS 300 vs M35 I'm really having difficulty between the two. I would be interested in the thoughts of those who chose the M35.
Comments
Having a Cary Audio/B&W Ref/Paradigm Ref system at home and being a long term audio buff as well, we could talk anechoic FR, SNR,Watts, Efficiency etc...all we want, but the real answer is "what do you expect for the $500 Infiniti pays us"... a sum that does not even pay for the dedicated power circuits and power conditioning/protection on my home system!
Considering the price point, I think you've done well.
And I better not have ever said Bose is "building these systems to a low price point." The descriptor "low" means different things to different people.
It would be more accurate to say automotive suppliers design build to a price point that reflects a very complex set of tradeoffs and negotiations ... in which things like the supplier's desire to offer more performance is not necessarily the most important.
That's the nice thing about the retail market. You want to spend more, no problem. With OEM audio, the car makerchoses how much 'you' want to spend and what you get.
Finally, I have to say that the quality of audio in any OEM system is subject to MANY factors. Some important ones to consider are:
How cooperative is the automaker in accomodating good acoustic design? Don't think it so ridiculous that an automaker would try to propose a speaker grill that is acoustically opaque!. Sometimes the car planner is in love with audio and wants to introduce a whole new level of audio experience to the car buying public ... and will fight the bean counters to make great audio. Sometimes the car planner doesn't give a sh*t, and squashes the best intentions of the supplier-side audio manager.
It's a crazy business
B
Have a look at a set of equal loudness contours. How much increase do you need at 50Hz to achieve the equivalent of 10dB increase in power at 1kHz?
You generally need much less than 10x power increase to double loudness at low frequencies. It also depends on how loud the sound already is.
B
I'm considering the M45 Premium, but noticed something I didn't like AT ALL about the rear controls. I'm wondering if anyone has seen a way around this:
It appears that the volume controls in the rear are simply an extension of the front controls. When the rear passengers adjust them, the front speakers follow suit. Is there any way to have the rear sets get their own volume level?
The same thing goes for temerature settings: when either rear passenger changes their A/C, BOTH front zones move up or down by the same amount (even if the A/C is in dual mode!!) I would expect the rear zone to be a third zone for the car - independent from the front.
I also have a few other quesitons:
1) Can rear-seated passengers truly watch a DVD on the flip-down screen (using headphones) while the driver listens to the radio (satellite or terrestrial)?
2) While driving, are any NAV funtions locked out?
3) Is it true that the AC voice commands are for temperature only (no fan)?
4) On the two models I test-drove, the dealer put on some demo DVD encoded to Dolby 5.1. Of course, it sounded awesome. But when I switched over to plain old radio, the speakers in the seat seemed to not work worth a darn. He mentioned something about needing to play 5.1-encoded CD's for best sound. WTF? :surprise: My question is: are the speakers near your head actually putting out good sound with plain old CDs?
This car drives so well, I'm just put off by some of the half-baked features:
I need the entertainment package for the kids, but the drop-down screen blocks the rear-view mirror almost completely. The oddly-shaped M headrests taper in the back and therefore cannot accomodate LCD screens. I'm sure the unusual shape is due to the extra speakers.
Speaking of which...the seat-mounted speakers appear to be a gimmick, as they seem to be almost useless. (I hope your experiences differ with this.)
They have a ton of voice commands, but are missing some obvious ones.
The Premium package adds full luxury to the rear passengers, but the rear controls are simply satellites of the front console. For the extra cost, the rear passengers should truly have their own experience (as Infiniti promises). A single console-mounted anemic air vent just doesn't cool that rear area. And Jeez, for the premium option price, it should include ventilated rear seats.
Achingly absent are rear side sunshades, although they are available or standard on every one of the competitor's cars.
The Nav system is great as usual, but is missing real-time traffic conditions (which should be standard with any Nav/satellite system by now). Granted - only Acura has this now, but automakers must make this available very soon. Infiniti would be wise to offer it as an upgrade to current owners in the near future.
If some of the 'missing' features are actually there, but hidden in the owner's manual, PLEASE let me know. I really want the M45 to be my 3rd Infiniti to date. I hope that by the 2008 model, the following will be avilable:
* Rear side-sunshades (and rear power sunshade moved to Journey package)
* Real-time traffic conditions on NAV added to Tech package
* Rear seat coolers added to Premium package
* Better sound (or elimination of headrest speakers)
* Wider voice command library - standard
* Entertainment system removed from Premium package
* Front bumper radar parking sensors added to Tech package
* Additional air vents for rear passengers (mounted above doors - a'la LS430)
Now, wouldn't all of you M35/M45 owners find these to be icing on the cake?
On the two models I test-drove, the dealer put on some demo DVD
encoded to Dolby 5.1. Of course, it sounded awesome.
But when I switched over to plain old radio, the speakers in the
seat seemed to not work worth a darn. He mentioned something
about needing to play 5.1-encoded CD's for best sound. WTF?
My question is: are the speakers near your head actually putting
out good sound with plain old CDs?
Let's talk about the DVD capability. The technology system is capable of playing back DVD-A in DVD-A format. It is also capable of playing back other format, including DTS, Dolby Digital (AC-3 is less ambiguous), etc. DVD's are multi-format when it comes to the audio tracks. The vehicle audio system should default to the highest "resolution" format possible for whatever disc you insert. If it was a DVD-Video it could very well be that AC-3 was the best it could do. If you played a DVD-A, you would get DVD-A ... This was the design of the system, but it does not take into account the possibility that some headunits with software bugs got into the field.
Now about the seat speakers. These devices are utilized for optimizing a number of things, including sound stage spaciousness and imaging, and they provide a capability for doing this that goes beyond what can be done with normal audio systems. This optimization is actually done differently for different signal sources. Why? One easy example is to compare CD to DVD. True discrete 5.1 (DVD-A) can have instruments, vocalists, and other things specifically and precisely placed behind you. The seat mounted speakers are used to help you hear those things with the right location and tonal balance. In contrast, CD's do not have specific music info that is supposed to be coming from only behind you. So the seat speakers are utilized in a different way because the desired sound stage is different. This is why you hear different amounts of sound coming out of the seat speakers for a DVD or a radio broadcast.
One other thing to remember. The seat speakers are not meant to be played so you distinctly notice that there is a little speaker a few inches from your ear. That is what you would get if you just stuck some speakers on the seats and cranked up the gain. It WOULD be unnatural. Instead, Bose uses several proprietary DSP technologies to help those close speakers create a large/wide/natural rear sound stage.
B
(Bose Employee)
I let me my kids control the audio from the rear when it's their turn to choose the stations. It's very nice to let them switch around to their favorites without bothering me. When I take my my turn on the station choices, I disable the rear controls: There's a switch for that.
Rear climate controls:
This car is advertised as a dual zone climate control car. It's not a four zone car. I believe the Lexus works the same way. There are individual blower volume and directional controls on the rear vents. There's not much more you could do with a dual zone car. But I agree there's not all that much value in this feature. Those rear vents move a lot of air, IMO, and I haven't had any problems at all with the rear passenger comfort. And speaking of rear passenger comfort: I'm 6'1". I tend to sit with my seat way back. and I recently spent a week driving some friends all around the bay area, with a 6'3" friend right behind me. He said he's never been so comfortable in a rear seat, and we both had tons of leg room. No other car in this class could have done that.
Voice command.
No current Lexus, BMW, or Mercedes can enter destinations by saying the street address, as the M can. This voice command is the most complete system on the market, by a wide margin. (With the possible exception of Acura, whose voice system is comparable) It appears you can not adjust blower speed with voice command, but after all the blower speed commands are right there on the console.
Watching and listening to DVD while playing the radio.
I believe you can go to headphone mode and watch DVD and listen to the DVD on the headphones while others are listening to radio through the speakers.
Nav Traffic.
Infiniti has signed an agreement with XM to offer this in the future. No word on such features from Germany, and lexus has yet to implement it, as well.
Surround Sound.
Go to: settings > Audio > Bose Center Point
There you can turn on center point to get surround sound on CDs etc. You can scroll down from Bose Center Point to CenterPoint volume to adjust that to your liking as well. As an ex musician, who's owned several Lexi including one with Mark Levinson, I'm totally blown away by the quality of this sound system. I do suggest turning the base way up for the best equalization.
Half Baked features.
IMO the features of this car are generally richer, better thought out and more user friendly than any competitor, by a huge margin. I can give you a very large list of comparative deficiencies on each of the competitors systems. I own a merecedes and have owned many Lexii including an LS430. Among the big advantages for the M, is best nav in the industry, Best Back Up Monitor, Best Voice command, Best Intelligent Cruise, a much heartier climate control than the most others , a logically arranged console with instant access to all every day controls (requiring hugely less digging through menus than any of the competition.), much more passenger room than any competitor, and countless areas with superb attention to detail. No system is perfect, the M is just a lot closer. AMHO.
Pete
Well after driving the M for a while, I have to admit that it really feels better without it. JMHO.
Pete
As I do, I'm sure you know as well about the old saying abou "the foold and his money..........."
Well after driving the M for a while, I have to admit that it really feels better without it.
I agree with Pete. After living with the wood wheel in my '05 LS for the last eight months, I can say that it may look nice, but I really don't like it for driving. It's hot in the summer, cold in the winter, and slippery all the time. And this is despite that I have to admit to generally being a natural wood lover.
Regarding the rosewood in the M, has anyone tried to put more of a shine on the matte finish with some oil or polish or whatever? I am not a big fan of high gloss, but Infiniti may have gone a bit too far the other way for my taste. Just IMHO.
I have an M35 Journey with Bose on order.
Is there any way I can wire my digital audio player into it?
I'm not getting the DVD player so those AUX inputs won't be there.
I've been told no.
Any ideas?
---Watching and listening to DVD while playing the radio.
I believe you can go to headphone mode and watch DVD and listen to the DVD on the headphones while others are listening to radio through the speakers. ---
On the DVD/headphone- Radio issue, the answer is most certainly YES you can. My daughters have been in the back watching a DVD while my wife and I listen to the radio in the front. Simply activate "headphone mode" (not sure that's the exact name) on the settings and they can listen to theirs while you listen to yours. You'll see a small headphone icon on the right side of the "status" screen.
BTW, the A/C is tremendous. I had to keep my 2000 S500 at 64 degrees to be even passably comfortable in the summer (Chicago area) while I keep my M at 71-74.
As to the satellite/nav traffic, has anyone heard if Sirius is also close to doing anything beyond the local traffic/weather channel they have?
Thanks....
By the way..I have had my M45 for 3 months (previous BMW owner) this car is a serious piece of engineeing and IMO smokes anything out there for the price.
You can do exactly what you want with the buttons on the dash, and most of what you want with the steering wheel controls
Here's how you do it the first time:
Switching to Aux is a DVD setting, and everything's obvious after that.
1) Hit the DISK button (or steering wheel SOURCE button) until you see DVD on screen.
2) Use the arrow keys to select Settings/Aux on the screen and press enter
3) Press enter again to choose AUX and choose Play AUX
Here's how you do it all other times
1) Use the steering wheel SOURCE button to switch between Radio and AUX. Simple as that.
Note that you'll have to do the first procedure when you want to switch from playing AUX to playing DVD's or vice versa.
Pete
Good question.
According to the manual:
When this item is turned to ON, AudioPilot monitors noise in the passenger compartment with a microphone and compensates for any unpleasant noise.
That would mean active noise cancellation, as with the Quiet Comfort2. Something else to add to our M's extensive features list.
BTW, I have those Bose Quiet Comfort headphones, and they're amazingly effective.
Pete
One thing you can try is to play with the CenterPoint volume adjustment. It's right below CenterPoint in the audio settings screen. Perhaps you can get a setting that works for you. Please let us know how it goes.
I'd also like to hear from mr bose on the subject.
Pete
AudioPilot is something different:
Go to www.bose.com
Type "AudioPilot" into the search box.
I believe the second or third result has a good explanation.
B
I so agree with you on this, and several reviewers have commented on it as well. In all my experience with Mercedes, BMW, and Lexus the effectiveness of the M's climate control system just blows away
As to the satellite/nav traffic, has anyone heard if Sirius is also close to doing anything beyond the local traffic/weather channel they have?
Sirius announced plans for a similar service long after XM starting shipping theirs. I spoke to a NavTeq exec who guessed it would be 2007 or 2008 before you start seeing the Sirius system in cars. NavTeq is the supplier of the real time traffic info for XM and Sirius, but it really sounded like just an off the cuff guess on his part.
Pete
You meant XM does NOT current transmit any ...
Centerpoint is a technology (now you've got me sounding like a marketing person!)
that provides the user a "bridge" between 2-channel stereo and discrete surround (DVD-A, 5.1 SACD, and arguably AC-3 and DTS).
Centerpoint can be used to very nice effect with 2-channel material that contains "matrixed" or encoded surround information. Dolby ProLogic encoded discs are one example. Centerpoint also can be used to process non-encoded (e.g. normal stereo) 2-channel material, adding a degree of additional spaciousness and some degree of surround. Through these two functions it serves as a bridge to 5.1 discrete surround.
B
(Bose employee, no relation to Dr.
Right. That's what I meant.
Centerpoint can be used to very nice effect with 2-channel material that contains "matrixed" or encoded surround information. Dolby ProLogic encoded discs are one example. Centerpoint also can be used to process non-encoded (e.g. normal stereo) 2-channel material, adding a degree of additional spaciousness and some degree of surround. Through these two functions it serves as a bridge to 5.1 discrete surround.
Thanks for your info on this. The second function (normal stereo) was the one I was referring to for XM. I stand corrected on the first function (application to matrixed audio). That's good to know.
One more question. Do you agree that the varying quality of source recordings (and it's interaction with centerpoint) are likely to be contributing to the intermittent changes in sound level heard on the seat speakers, when using centerpoint with XM?
Pete
So each of the manufacturers is trying to make a step up, and distinguish themselves from those models who offer 'standard' systems, while still remaining within the reasonable bounds determined by price and the limitations imposed by the cars interior and the wishes of those who are designing this interior.
Those who install or have installed extensive after-market systems are spending a good bit more money to bring their vehicles' sound systems closer to 'high-fidelity', but there are many barriers to overcome, including those mentioned above, road noise, wind noise, seating positions, and a changing environment for many of these factors.
After reading the explanation given on the Bose website for AudioPilot, I come away with two assumptions. First, there is liberal use of indefinite terms, leaving a decent amount of technical information up for conjecture. Second, this technique appears to be based on amplitude(volume) and compression. There is no mention of equalization, nor of active sound cancellation/reduction.
It should be noted that the excellent QC headphones noted by our expert provide excellent sound fidelity, but even their well-designed sound cancellation is much more effective for low frequencies than for midrange or high frequencies. In addition, in-ear monitors (small headsets which sit in the external auditory canals), which merely physically block the ear canals, provide significant increases of noise reduction (10 to 16 dB) above even the best active noise-cancellation cans. There are good physical reasons why midrange and high frequencies are difficult to actively cancel.
The important point of this is that, even were Bose to utilize active noise-cancellation in the car environment, much of that noise is in the mid and high range, and is unlikely to be reduced significantly.
While some refer to the "No highs, no lows, must be Bose" statement, we should all keep in mind that Bose, or any other company working with the manufacturer in this sort of joint venture is constrained by cost and by the priorities of others in the overall design of the vehicle.
For those of us who choose to spend considerably more on aftermarket sound systems, we are well aware of the costs of making significant upgrades, and consider it a fine luxury added to a fine car. There is no free lunch!
Let's let this discussion get back to the car itself.
Thanks.
The fact is that the subject of the ins and outs of car - and other - stereos is being beaten to death in many of our general sedans discussions and the place for this level of detail is on our Accessories board.
Thanks.
We can talk about the M35/M45 stereo as long as we keep the conversation directly related to the uniqueness of the stereo system in this vehicle and as long as we don't get mired in the depths of the nuances, theories and intense details of stereo systems in general. That "miring" is what is just not appropriate here.
I hope this is a little clearer - I don't mean to put a stop to useful discussion, but I do need to put a stop to that which deviates so far from our purpose here in this general topic.
If anyone has any questions, feel free to email me.
Thanks!
to the right side of the transmission hump, at least on the
M35x. I have no idea what Infiniti intended it to be used for.
Anyone care to venture a guess?
Maybe its for speeding tickets!
On the issue of steering wheels I do like the one in my M35x. I only wish it was heated like my previous BMW. That will be the first think I miss when I drive the Infiniti this winter.
The M's manual says "Infiniti recommends mineral based oils" (pg. 9-5 of the Owner's Manual). Does this mean synthetic oil is explicitly not recommended for the M's engine, even though synthetic exceeds regular oil specs?
Also, there were some posts about changing the oil at the 1,200 mile break-in period (some people recommended extending this period to 1,800 miles) and then letting the engine go to higher revs. Would synthetic oil be recommended for this first accelerated change?
I consider the 3,750-mile / 3-month basic service interval too short and a nuisance. I would like to use synthetic oil and extend the service period to 7,500 miles because my usual driving roughly meets the criteria stated in the manual. From experience with my MB, I would like to use synthetic oil (there was a class action suit against MB that caused them to exclusively adopt synthetic for use with the Flexible Service System, which allows service intervals of about 12k miles in practice).
If synthetic, would Mobil 1 be preferrable to Castrol or other brands?
I haven't had time to evaluate the audio quality yet but the first report of outgoing sound quality was good.
I chose the LG over the Motorola E815 because I felt the menu layout was more intuitive and I liked the address book setup better with multiple numbers per entry. I also like the way speed dial numbers can be assigned independently of memory location.
I used "Earth Rite" Furniture Polish. I put a small amount on a lint-free cotton rag to apply and buff with the dry part of the cloth. I've used this product before and like it - it is a very 'gentle' polish with no strong solvents and no strong smell. It leaves a nice glow on the wood. I haven't done any comparison testing, so other brands may work as well. It made a BIG difference the first time I used it, the wood was very dull and flat when I first got the car.
BTW . . . agree about the driving experience. This thing rocks!
I so agree with you on this, and several reviewers have commented on it as well. In all my experience with Mercedes, BMW, and Lexus the effectiveness of the M's climate control system just blows away the competition.
I agree, I was surprised by the 'anemic A/C' posts. I know experience can vary, but I find the A/C very strong, here in the hot Maryland summer. I usually leave my A/C set on 72-73, where I run most other cars at 69. The Infiniti, if anything seems too cold at times
My service provider is Rogers in Canada.
The Canadian Infiniti site does not list the 5600 as a pair-able
phone but I had no problem. Also no audio problem at either end of the connection.
Would like to be able to use my phone voice tags through the car system but can't.
Perhaps there is a way , will keep searching.
Pete
Basically, the AudioPilot on the M determines the amount of ambient noise in each of various frequency ranges (such as base, mid range etc) and then optimally increases the audio output levels in each of those ranges to best compensate for the noise. The goal is to allow you to hear all of the music all of the time without creating the perception that it's getting any louder.
Pretty sophisticated system, and may be one reason why the M sounds so good.
Pete
Thanks.