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http://www.nctd.com/review-intro.cfm?ReviewID=1504
>Here in Oregon there is no sales tax, cheap >registration and a $1500 tax CREDIT too. When I >add that to the Federal $2000 deduction and the >Toyota loyalty rebate of $500
>Here in Oregon there is no sales tax, cheap >registration and a $1500 tax CREDIT too. When I >add that to the Federal $2000 deduction and the >Toyota loyalty rebate of $500
Model / Base $ / Db@Idle / Db@Full Throttle / DB@70 mph Cruise
Toyota Prius / 19,995 / "53/lo" / 71 / 74
Acura TSX / 28,490 / "Lo" / 77 / 75
Infiniti M45 / 42,300 / "below 50" / 69 / 71
Volvo XC90 / 39,975 / 52 / 71 / 75
Kia Sorento / 21,300 / n/a / 74 / 71
MB E500 / 54,850 / 53 / 74 / 76
Infiniti FX45 / 44,225 / 51 / 78 / 76
Bentley Arnage R / 199,990 / 51 / 75 / 73
Lexus GX470 / 45,500 / 54 / 69 / 73
Cadillac Escalade EXT / 50,445 / Lo / 75 / 72
Saab 9-3 Linear / 26,525 / 52 / 78 / 78
Mazda 6s / 21,740 / 67 / 89 / 92
Mitsubishi Outlander / 20,070 / 77 / 100 / 96
Subaru Baja / 23,995 / 72 / 94 / 91
Honda Accord LX V6 / 21,159 / 66 / 88 / 92
Toyota Matrix 4WD / 18,445 / Low / 76 / 75
Looking at the numbers, note that the Prius' base price is lower than all but one other vehicle--the Matrix. But its interior noise levels are better than many considerably pricier vehicles, and compare pretty well with luxuxy models like the Bentley Arnage, Cadillac Escalade, and MB E500, and also with several near-luxury vehicles and mid-sized cars like the Accord and Mazda6. In fact, the only vehicles that have more than a 2 db advantage over the Prius in any score are the Infiniti M45, which is the quietest car Edmunds.com posted scores for, and the Kia Sorento, which was 3 db quieter at cruise (but 3 db noisier at full throttle). The Matrix also fared pretty well, considering its price.
Maybe what the Prius (and Sorento and Matrix) prove is that you don't have to buy a luxury car to get some peace and quiet. :-)
Frustrated Jennifer
> earliest Priuses.
Clarification on that statement is what I was looking for details on. I certainly haven't seen any of those posts. Online groups are a conduit for complaints. So that is where I'd expect to read about them, just like the statement implies.
As far as it appears, it is just an isolated incident. Which is an unfornate reality. Even with 99.9% excellent, someone will still get stuck being the 0.1% consumer.
JOHN
A Lexus LS430 produces a cacophany of noise in comparison. ;-)
People should not overlook these less obvious benefits: range, quietness, HOV lane access, no sales tax in some states, tax deduction, torque at idle, etc. It's not just about MPGs.
-juice
Recieved my prius a week ago, promptly a snow storm occurred. Handled pretty good overall in snow.
Quick question:
Can the Traction control be disabled if you are stuck in snow? I have read the manual late at night and did not see any reference to this matter.
thanks in advance
P.
Congrats!
The purpose of TRAC is actually to protect the CVT. So disabling that control is not likely possible.
If you find the need to routinely overspin the tires (which is never recommended since it literally scraps off the rubber), you should switch to snow tires. Those that have say it makes such a big improvement that there isn't a need for anything beyond that. Another option is to carry sand or a gripper to place under the slipping tire.
JOHN
Already have snow tires on.
Don't need to overspin tires often but if caught in a parking lot in a snow storm for a few hours the snow gets kinda deep from plows and thus difficult to move. Also another occasion the big snow plows block certain off-ramps. I've never been stuck but have seen others stuck.
My Bimmer 5-series has a disabling feature for such an occurance.
In short, TRAC is to protect the CVT? really? But your 2001 prius doesn't have TRAC no?
Let me rephase my question:
" Is there not a button that can temporary disable the TRAC (<1 minute) "
Not looking to pernamently disable the system.
TIA
P
On my 00 GS300 if the driven wheels slipped then the brakes were applied followed in a few hundred milliseconds by dethrottling the engine. I found that if I lifted the gas pedal the very instant Trac activated the brakes then dethrottling did not occur and then by "feathering" the gas pedal to avoid slippage I could move forward expeditously.
Lexus said that in my particular case the dethrottling was, otherwise, to prevent over-heating of the brakes and subsequent warping of the rotors.
On the Sequoia when a wheel spins the brakes are applied, lightly, to that wheel to force torque to the wheel(s) with traction. If no wheels has enough traction to move forward and the driver attempts to spin the wheels to get unstuck the engine will be quickly dethrottled.
On the Sequoia if the above condition exists for more than 45 seconds the ABS pump/motor is automatically disabled so the driver will not persist and thereby damage the brakes, rotors, or even the driveline, worse case.
But then the Sequoia, unlike your Prius, has a backup 4WD system wherein the center diff'l is locked and Trac is disabled.
And please remember that snowchains on a FWD vehicle can quickly become extremely hazardous.
My answer would be to leave the Prius, or any FWD vehicle, at home in a nice safe garage if the roads outside are slippery.
So the T/C basically doubles your odds of finding traction, really.
-juice
Good Luck with yours.
Toyota needs to know what their dealers are doing. A while back in another Toyota discussion, the person did call and did get some assistance from Toyota corporate on a dealer/purchase issue.
Good luck.
FYI, in Colorado they sell packages 3,7, and 9. Waiting lists seem to be 3 months or more.
Yup, it does!
And no, there isn't a button available on either the 2001 or 2004.
JOHN
I took my car back to the dealer for the following problems:
Gas tank- Blinker signaled for gas at 232.1 miles. I filled tank with 6.83 gallons. Second fillup occurred when blinker signaled 270 miles, and I filled with 8.something gallons. I live in L.A. The dealer told me that someone else came in with the same problem. He said Toyota told the dealers that this is a cold weather problem, and they were working on it. Folks, cold weather in L.A.? The service guy told me that while in his shirtsleeves! That's laughable. What are the folks in Minnesota, Boston and other really cold weather places experiencing? ALSO, HE WARNED THAT THE GAUGE IS AN ACCURATE MEASURE OF WHAT'S IN THE TANK--IF IT IS BLINKING, GET GAS A.S.A.P!
Mileage-- very poor mileage. On the freeway I get 48 mpg, which is very satisfactory. However, in the city, I get 37 mpg, which is almost half the EPA estimate.
Dealer took my car on a drive, mixture of city and freeway, and told me he was getting 45 mpg combination. He said I don't drive enough per trip to get the great mileage EPA estimates. I do short trips up and down hills, but I did the same in my 1991 Infinity G20 and got within 2 miles of the EPA estimate. Would love to hear from others on this, especially L.A. residents. I am not a happy camper!
Re demos, if it has more than 10 miles I'd strongly suspect it's been used as a demo. Ask the dealer. Another possibility though is that it could have been driven from another dealer in a swap.
A common problem many new owners have is that they are under the impression that conservative driving will yield high efficiency. In reality, just the opposite occurs. Accelerating slows hurts MPG.
Brisk acceleration (quick, but not jack rabbit) provides impressive numbers.
Also, don't be afraid to let the engine start back up just for a moment of extra thrust. That helps overall too. Since the stored electricity supply is limite, you want to get the most from it. That means using it for sustaining speed, speeding up while cruising.
By the way, I've never seen MPG that low under normal driving conditions. That would shock me too. Mid 40's is what you should expect in the short-term. Later, your average should hover around 50 MPG.
JOHN
1. Regenerative braking is used to recover energy that would otherwise be lost. If you are in stop and go traffic a lot this can be a BIG advantage.
2. If it's COLD outside or you set the heater temperature fairly high the engine will be operating continously just to generate the HEAT.
3. If you select the mode that uses engine braking then there will be less opportunity for regenerative charging of the batteries.
I was informed, when I picked up my Prius last evening, that they are not even putting ;people on the waiting/allocation list anymore - lists are too long for the number of cars they expect to receive in all of 2004.
Shame they didn't make that electrically powered A/C compressor reversible.
They stated that about 1800 new Prius are planned for deliverey in 2004 for Texas. But they also said that the current demand already exceeds this number and that most (if not all) of the local dealers do not accept any new contracts any more. They have been ordered so from Toyota Headquarters.
And that the recent delivery times are supposed to exceed 6 months for the ones that just got ordered.
On one side I am amazed about this demand in truck country. Economy really seem to pick up.
On the other side the stories about the sales practices are really bad.
I am not sure if I would to to buy one right now in regards to the behavior of Toyota and the dealers or if I would go for another vehicle like the Golf or Jetta Wagon TDI.
On my way back via interstate 8 to San Diego-Temecula-Lake Elsinore-Corona-Pomona-El Monte-Glendale. I was impress with the Prius climbing power up the Cleveland National Forest. From a -80 ft elevation to 4100 ft, the car maintained a 65 mph cruise control setting even at a 5 mile 6% uphill grade. In the end, the trip computer showed 43 mpg. I was not able to fill that night but the fuel gauge also showed 3 bars left. Ave temp. during the trip was about 60 degrees. I also found out that trying to manually calculate mileage using the fill-up method vary drastically even though the car posted almost identical miles driven.
To my fellow SoCal Prius owners experiencing somewhat lower than expected mileage, just give the engine ample time to smoothen those moving engine parts. It may take as much as 15k miles before you can see the true mileage your car is capable off.
2 very helpful & simple things you can do is check your oil & tire pressure. Too much oil and not enough air both really hurt MPG.
Oil should never be above the "Full" mark. About 1/4 inch below that mark is the ideal.
PSI in the tires should be an absolute minimum of 35/33 (front/back). 42/40 is the ideal (measured cold & routinely).
And if you'd like to easily squeeze out another MPG, switch to synthetic oil.
JOHN
Based on what I have been reading I expected to have much more trouble staying in Stealth - Wonder if Toyota changed anything? Not sure of build date on mine but did just get it late on the 15th.
PRIUSBUYER: Temps here have been low to mid 30 range. Have not used heat yet since we had a cold but very sunny day which helped keep it warm inside. I did raise my tire pressure to 42/40 per John's and many others recommendations. The car was 35psi all around when I picked it up.-
Yes, they did. It is considerably easier to maintain stealth. In fact, it was nearly impossible in below-freezing temperatures with the classic. Now it takes just a little bit of foot work.
I had a brief opportunity to try warm weather performance. It was mid 60's F, the ideal is about 80 F. The electric feel was fantastic. This spring sure is going to be exciting.
JOHN
If the battery levels get down too low, does the gas engine kick in even if you're going slow?
> gas engine kick in even if you're going slow?
Yes, but there are actually several factors that influence when the engine starts back up.
One is to protect the battery-pack from a deep-discharge level. The engine will start to ensure the longest possible battery life, consuming gas to provide recharging.
Another is the electric draw. If it exceeds 10kW, the engine starts.
And another is the heater. If the core temperature drops below what's needed to achieve the warmth level you requested, the engine starts.
A factor that is no longer a direct influence is the A/C. This is because the pump is now electric, rather than mechanically driven by a belt connected to the engine. So the engine will stay off much longer, without sacrificing any air cooling ability.
JOHN
Would you buy one on E-bay or is that a bad idea?
I'm am just wanting some feedback....thanks
What happens is that the series of warning lights beginning with "check engine" and continuing with "brake system warning," "anti-lock brake system," "vehicle stability control," and "slip indicator" come on. Some of these may not come on in some cases. There is definitely some randomness in this. The "master warning light" also comes on.
The engine immediately shuts down. The motor remains functional. At highway speeds (we were on a 75mph interstate), the motor alone cannot support the speeds, and the car decelerates rapidly. The battery discharges quite quickly if you attempt to maintain any reasonable speed.
Lest any of you readers think I'm making up some of this, I am including the information from the repairs. The first time this problem occurred was just after an oil change at 3466 miles (early because of long trip (approx 4,000 miles) home about to take place. I hadn't even moved the car from the dealer parking lot.
Hyannis Toyota
1020 Iyanough Road
Hyannis, MA 02601
508-775-1230
Advisor: Linda Kay Hastings
Mileage: 3,466
R.O. Date: 12/03/03
Invoice No.: TOCS237217
VIN: JTDKB20U140009751
Check engine light is on.
Scanned ECU code POA4B. Cleared all codes. Codes reset on 2nd start. Hard fault codes reset on 2nd key cycle. Diag per attached. All valves within spec. Called tech line. Ck for water in M5 connector. None on outside noted. Tech line said swap ECUs if easily accessible. No easy access. Call tech line again. Removed M5 connector. Found moisture condition in connector. Cleaned and packed with dielectric grease. All good. Needs trans replacement for permanent repair. Cust in transit. T-1 66 T-2 48
The next time (at 5,154 miles), we were in Alabama and were towed to Jackson, MS because the trained Prius technician in Meridian, MS was out for the day -- a double tow. They wrote that "Gas engine quit, and warning light came on. Cleaned water from connector and apply NAPA dielectric grease, retested and cleared info."
Both service departments were very friendly and helpful.
Note that the second service was identical with the first. Now, Toyota says that this fix (greasing the M5 connector) is the "permanent" fix and is refusing to consider our situation any longer. Yet the error condition recurred three times after the first fix, one in full view of the Jackson Toyota service department.
Furthermore, the second fix involved a different grease. In other words, we're the guinea pigs for this problem. I am unwilling to wait until the problem recurs yet again -- at the possible loss of my life -- to get this problem fixed permanently.
I have escalated the problem through Toyota customer service and may have to wait three days to explain the problem to yet another member of the Toyota team. In the meantime, my Prius will stay off of the freeways here in California.
If I have not provided enough details to satisfy the doubting Thomases among you, let me know.
I believe the first mechanic. He said that the M5 connector was the wrong design and had been replaced in newer builds. By the time we had the second breakdown, they must have decided that replacing transmissions was too expensive. A dab of grease costs much less. Imagine them deciding that they wait until a few people die before undergoing such an expensive recall. I will not be one of those people. If necessary, under California's lemon laws, we'll get a refund. Then, we can use the money to get a new (with correct M5 connect) Prius. This is one way to get around this problem.
What happens is that the series of warning lights beginning with "check engine" and continuing with "brake system warning," "anti-lock brake system," "vehicle stability control," and "slip indicator" come on. Some of these may not come on in some cases. There is definitely some randomness in this. The "master warning light" also comes on.
The engine immediately shuts down. The motor remains functional. At highway speeds (we were on a 75mph interstate), the motor alone cannot support the speeds, and the car decelerates rapidly. The battery discharges quite quickly if you attempt to maintain any reasonable speed.
Lest any of you readers think I'm making up some of this, I am including the information from the repairs. The first time this problem occurred was just after an oil change at 3466 miles (early because of long trip (approx 4,000 miles) home about to take place. I hadn't even moved the car from the dealer parking lot.
Hyannis Toyota
1020 Iyanough Road
Hyannis, MA 02601
508-775-1230
Advisor: Linda Kay Hastings
Mileage: 3,466
R.O. Date: 12/03/03
Invoice No.: TOCS237217
VIN: JTDKB20U140009751
Check engine light is on.
Scanned ECU code POA4B. Cleared all codes. Codes reset on 2nd start. Hard fault codes reset on 2nd key cycle. Diag per attached. All valves within spec. Called tech line. Ck for water in M5 connector. None on outside noted. Tech line said swap ECUs if easily accessible. No easy access. Call tech line again. Removed M5 connector. Found moisture condition in connector. Cleaned and packed with dielectric grease. All good. Needs trans replacement for permanent repair. Cust in transit. T-1 66 T-2 48
The next time (at 5,154 miles), we were in Alabama and were towed to Jackson, MS because the trained Prius technician in Meridian, MS was out for the day -- a double tow. They wrote that "Gas engine quit, and warning light came on. Cleaned water from connector and apply NAPA dielectric grease, retested and cleared info."
Both service departments were very friendly and helpful.
Note that the second service was identical with the first. Now, Toyota says that this fix (greasing the M5 connector) is the "permanent" fix and is refusing to consider our situation any longer. Yet the error condition recurred three times after the first fix, one in full view of the Jackson Toyota service department.
Furthermore, the second fix involved a different grease. In other words, we're the guinea pigs for this problem. I am unwilling to wait until the problem recurs yet again -- at the possible loss of my life -- to get this problem fixed permanently.
I have escalated the problem through Toyota customer service and may have to wait three days to explain the problem to yet another member of the Toyota team. In the meantime, my Prius will stay off of the freeways here in California.
If I have not provided enough details to satisfy the doubting Thomases among you, let me know.
I believe the first mechanic. He said that the M5 connector was the wrong design and had been replaced in newer builds. By the time we had the second breakdown, they must have decided that replacing transmissions was too expensive. A dab of grease costs much less. Imagine them deciding that they wait until a few people die before undergoing such an expensive recall. I will not be one of those people. If necessary, under California's lemon laws, we'll get a refund. Then, we can use the money to get a new (with correct M5 connect) Prius. This is one way to get around this problem.
I do too. It is a geniune incident. Thanks for the detail... which is absolutely essential for lemon-law litigation. You'll thank me for forcing you to well document your experiences. Without lots of detail, your requests won't proceed anywhere. They'll just blame it on a misdiagnosis or untimely follow up to a problem that wasn't originally that bad.
What I don't believe is that this is cronic. A report or two isn't enough to say an entire production build of vehicles are included. Keep in mind that those of us in the north are exposing our Prius to excessive amounts of moisture without experiencing the same problem.
Detail from Toyota is the next step. There would be a TSB if widespread repair/replacements are needed (that's how they inform the service staff). Finding out what a "M5" is, where it is, how much it costs, and what it takes to replace it would be most revealing. We'd also like to know how it is different from the connector already in the 120,000 Prius on roads worldwide using the pre-2004 design.
JOHN
> What I don't believe is that this is cronic. A report or two isn't enough to say an entire production build of vehicles are included. Keep in mind that those of us in the north are exposing our Prius to excessive amounts of moisture without experiencing the same problem.
You have only my word that the Hyannis people told me it was a build error in using the wrong connector and that the grease is a temporary fix. He told me this after consulting with the Toyota tech line! Today, Toyota claims that the grease is a "permanent" fix.
You also only have my word that the Jackson mechanic explained that the connector is **inside** the transmission and so is not affected by outside conditions.
The explanation for the failure is as follows (as I recall from my discussions with the two mechanics and/or service advisors).
Water condenses on the wire that leads to the M5 connector. This takes place inside the transaxle. This water travels down the wire and into the connector itself. Moisture in the connector causes random failure because of interference with signals being sent around the car.
Check your build number. Mine is under 10,000. If yours is sufficiently above it, then you have the proper connector. The alternate explanation is that all of these people were lying to me -- possible, but not likely -- and that Toyota is not hiding the truth because they'd really like to replace 10,000 transaxles, which (by the way) would impact their ability to build and ship more new Priuses and so would cost them much more than just the transaxle costs.
If my problem (and that of juliaj) is unique, nothing more will happen. If, instead, more reports like mine occur (with the grease fix), then Toyota will eventually have to own up to the error, especially if the grease fix isn't "permanent." A few deaths would help to get their attention. I'm not volunteering and I'm fairly sure that no one else on this list will either.
> lying to me
The catch is the dealer won't pay for work themselves. They will either make the customer pay or submit a warranty claim. Having a TSB makes warranty redemption simple, so they are more than happy to offer the service (work for their mechanics).
It's those unique occurences that they don't usually want to deal with, since all that dealing with corporate sometimes leave them with a frustrated customer and a lot of wasted time. That's where in the past owners have caught dealers leaving out rather important details and yes, lying. Others have reported dealers going way out of their way to learn what the problem was and fix it according, which is obviously better than replacing an entire sub-system or ignoring the owner hoping they'll just try to find help elsewhere.
So over the past 3 years, we've seen reports of all types. Lack of detail is a clear way to avoid that. It's also a good way to help others, we are able to problem-solve quickly by comparing data and finding a pattern.
Just look up "tire wear". The solution owners found, based on DETAIL they shared, helped a bunch of others from ever having to deal with it.
JOHN