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Toyota Prius

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Comments

  • finestackfinestack Member Posts: 26
    According to Motor Trend, the Prius did the 1/4 mile in 17.05 secs @ 80.83 mph. A private review I read this weekend claimed to have brought one up to 102 mph - but that's Internet 2nd hand. I'll try to find it again...maybe John can verify?
  • finestackfinestack Member Posts: 26
    This review had top speed comment on p. 3

    http://www.nctd.com/review-intro.cfm?ReviewID=1504
  • foregonforegon Member Posts: 2
    I am about pick up my new 2004 Prius this week and I read in an earlier post about a TOYOTA LOYALTY REBATE....Does anyone know who you talk to about this. I have spoke with my dealer and with Toyota directly and neither can give me any information. Anyone know anything about this please give me any information I am in Oregon.

    >Here in Oregon there is no sales tax, cheap >registration and a $1500 tax CREDIT too. When I >add that to the Federal $2000 deduction and the >Toyota loyalty rebate of $500
  • foregonforegon Member Posts: 2
    I am about pick up my new 2004 Prius this week and I read in an earlier post about a TOYOTA LOYALTY REBATE....Does anyone know who you talk to about this. I have spoke with my dealer and with Toyota directly and neither can give me any information. Anyone know anything about this please give me any information I am in Oregon.

    >Here in Oregon there is no sales tax, cheap >registration and a $1500 tax CREDIT too. When I >add that to the Federal $2000 deduction and the >Toyota loyalty rebate of $500
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I was intrigued about some comments on the Prius being noisy inside, based on Edmunds.com's road test decibel measurements, while in my three test drives the Prius seemed very quiet, especially compared to my current cars, a '01 Elantra and '99 Grand Caravan--both of which I consider pretty quiet for their respective classes. So I looked at what Edmunds.com has measured for other '04 cars, and I found they didn't have many interior sound readings for the '04s. So I looked at their road tests on the '03s too. Not all the road tests give interior sound levels, and many of the links to the detail pages on the road tests seemed to be broken, but here's all the interior noise test results I found (I didn't bother to check the road tests on convertibles):

    Model / Base $ / Db@Idle / Db@Full Throttle / DB@70 mph Cruise

    Toyota Prius / 19,995 / "53/lo" / 71 / 74
    Acura TSX / 28,490 / "Lo" / 77 / 75
    Infiniti M45 / 42,300 / "below 50" / 69 / 71
    Volvo XC90 / 39,975 / 52 / 71 / 75
    Kia Sorento / 21,300 / n/a / 74 / 71
    MB E500 / 54,850 / 53 / 74 / 76
    Infiniti FX45 / 44,225 / 51 / 78 / 76
    Bentley Arnage R / 199,990 / 51 / 75 / 73
    Lexus GX470 / 45,500 / 54 / 69 / 73
    Cadillac Escalade EXT / 50,445 / Lo / 75 / 72
    Saab 9-3 Linear / 26,525 / 52 / 78 / 78
    Mazda 6s / 21,740 / 67 / 89 / 92
    Mitsubishi Outlander / 20,070 / 77 / 100 / 96
    Subaru Baja / 23,995 / 72 / 94 / 91
    Honda Accord LX V6 / 21,159 / 66 / 88 / 92
    Toyota Matrix 4WD / 18,445 / Low / 76 / 75

    Looking at the numbers, note that the Prius' base price is lower than all but one other vehicle--the Matrix. But its interior noise levels are better than many considerably pricier vehicles, and compare pretty well with luxuxy models like the Bentley Arnage, Cadillac Escalade, and MB E500, and also with several near-luxury vehicles and mid-sized cars like the Accord and Mazda6. In fact, the only vehicles that have more than a 2 db advantage over the Prius in any score are the Infiniti M45, which is the quietest car Edmunds.com posted scores for, and the Kia Sorento, which was 3 db quieter at cruise (but 3 db noisier at full throttle). The Matrix also fared pretty well, considering its price.

    Maybe what the Prius (and Sorento and Matrix) prove is that you don't have to buy a luxury car to get some peace and quiet. :-)
  • djasonwdjasonw Member Posts: 624
    I don't need a dB meter to know that the Prius is quiet. Funny thing is that they measured sound levels at idle. What idle?? Once the Prius is warmed up (1-2 min in Summer, 5 at most winter) there is NO IDLE!! I know what my ears tell me. I have EXCELLENT hearing and the Prius is QUIET. I can have the music at level 12 and still chat with my passenger without yelling. Drive it and you'll agree.
  • jtrew77jtrew77 Member Posts: 6
    My husband and I ordered a Prius three days after the Prius hit the lots. We put a $500 deposit down for a silver package #8. We expected to get it mid-December, but we were informed last week that it would be more like mid-January. We decided to go into the dealer yesterday to assure the price we originally decided for our vehicle (so that when it came in, we were understood as to what the price would be). When the saleman came back with the price sheet, we were pleased to see the numbers were worked as we expected. Although, we didn't see anything listing WHAT package the vehicle was (we wanted to make sure it was the right car before agreeing). When the guy showed us the vehicle sheet (which he was hesitant to do) it was not even our sheet and it was a package #7! Therefore, the price we were agreeing on was NOT the car we order and overpriced (since 7's are less than 8's), for that matter. The guy then goes to the "secret man," as they always do, only to come back and say "oh, we can't get 8's...they're not making them anymore...you didn't know that??" AHHHH! He said all they can get are 7's and 9's. Then he came back with another price sheet (the price of the 9) and said that THIS is the car we ordered. I was outraged that we put our money down for an 8...which we were EXTREMELY clear about...and now we will have no car unless we fork out the extra $3000 on a package we didn't order. I'm really frustrated. If it's true they are not making 8's anymore, then fine...but it would have been nice to know that when we placed our order. Our dealer has been offering 7's to people and if we would have known there are no 8's, we would have liked to have dibs on some of the 7's. So, just a warning, if you have ordered an 8, be sure to check RIGHT NOW with your dealer to make sure you're really getting what you ordered! Has anyone out there ordered an 8 and actually taken delivery?

    Frustrated Jennifer
  • juliajjuliaj Member Posts: 8
    I wrote msg #1730. It was an M5 problem. Am not a mechanical person so can't give more detail about that. But when my failure happened, it was the day after driving in extremely rainy conditions. I was going about 75 when the warning lights started flashing. No loss of steering control but there was no acceleration either. I think that if I hadn't pulled over, I would have drifted to a stop. It is raining today and I have to drive to a destination about an hour away. Hope I get there.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > I've been reading about the transaxle problems on the
    > earliest Priuses.

    Clarification on that statement is what I was looking for details on. I certainly haven't seen any of those posts. Online groups are a conduit for complaints. So that is where I'd expect to read about them, just like the statement implies.

    As far as it appears, it is just an isolated incident. Which is an unfornate reality. Even with 99.9% excellent, someone will still get stuck being the 0.1% consumer.

    JOHN
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I noticed how the quietness adds to the luxury aura as well. Plus, it's zero decibels at idle. They pulled it up for me to test drive and it was completely silent.

    A Lexus LS430 produces a cacophany of noise in comparison. ;-)

    People should not overlook these less obvious benefits: range, quietness, HOV lane access, no sales tax in some states, tax deduction, torque at idle, etc. It's not just about MPGs.

    -juice
  • priuspetepriuspete Member Posts: 5
    Hello all:

    Recieved my prius a week ago, promptly a snow storm occurred. Handled pretty good overall in snow.

    Quick question:

    Can the Traction control be disabled if you are stuck in snow? I have read the manual late at night and did not see any reference to this matter.

    thanks in advance

    P.
  • SylviaSylvia Member Posts: 1,636
    Be sure and post your buying experience in the Toyota Prius: Prices Paid and Buying Experience discussion. It helps other prospective buyers with their trip to the dealership.

    Congrats!
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > Can the Traction control be disabled if you are stuck in snow?

    The purpose of TRAC is actually to protect the CVT. So disabling that control is not likely possible.

    If you find the need to routinely overspin the tires (which is never recommended since it literally scraps off the rubber), you should switch to snow tires. Those that have say it makes such a big improvement that there isn't a need for anything beyond that. Another option is to carry sand or a gripper to place under the slipping tire.

    JOHN
  • priuspetepriuspete Member Posts: 5
    J:

    Already have snow tires on.

    Don't need to overspin tires often but if caught in a parking lot in a snow storm for a few hours the snow gets kinda deep from plows and thus difficult to move. Also another occasion the big snow plows block certain off-ramps. I've never been stuck but have seen others stuck.

    My Bimmer 5-series has a disabling feature for such an occurance.

    In short, TRAC is to protect the CVT? really? But your 2001 prius doesn't have TRAC no?

    Let me rephase my question:

     " Is there not a button that can temporary disable the TRAC (<1 minute) "

    Not looking to pernamently disable the system.

    TIA

    P
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    You might be able to disable it by removing the ABS pump/motor fuse, or unplug the pumpmotor itself.

    On my 00 GS300 if the driven wheels slipped then the brakes were applied followed in a few hundred milliseconds by dethrottling the engine. I found that if I lifted the gas pedal the very instant Trac activated the brakes then dethrottling did not occur and then by "feathering" the gas pedal to avoid slippage I could move forward expeditously.

    Lexus said that in my particular case the dethrottling was, otherwise, to prevent over-heating of the brakes and subsequent warping of the rotors.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    The Toyota Sequoia has an AWD system using an open diff'l and using individual wheel(s) braking to apportion engine torque. Brake apportioned toque basically operates the same way as Trac on your FWD Prius.

    On the Sequoia when a wheel spins the brakes are applied, lightly, to that wheel to force torque to the wheel(s) with traction. If no wheels has enough traction to move forward and the driver attempts to spin the wheels to get unstuck the engine will be quickly dethrottled.

    On the Sequoia if the above condition exists for more than 45 seconds the ABS pump/motor is automatically disabled so the driver will not persist and thereby damage the brakes, rotors, or even the driveline, worse case.

    But then the Sequoia, unlike your Prius, has a backup 4WD system wherein the center diff'l is locked and Trac is disabled.

    And please remember that snowchains on a FWD vehicle can quickly become extremely hazardous.

    My answer would be to leave the Prius, or any FWD vehicle, at home in a nice safe garage if the roads outside are slippery.
  • jtrew77jtrew77 Member Posts: 6
    Okay...so here's the deal...I called around this morning to find out if my dealer was being truthful about the availability of Package #8 in the mid-atlantic region. Evidently it's true...no package #8's will be in the mid-atlantic inventory. The southeastern region however, doe sell package #8. Too bad my dealership failed to mention that to me months ago when I placed my order. I could have had an order in N.C. (right over the state line) which is considered southeast. Now, I have to wait until 2005 (or so I hear) if I place a new order with the southeast region!! Aaagghhhh!! What has happened to customer service?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Traction control manages the differential, which would otherwise be open. That would mean a single wheel slipping could receive all torque.

    So the T/C basically doubles your odds of finding traction, really.

    -juice
  • galootgaloot Member Posts: 13
    I didn't order it from a Columbia dealer. As you can probably tell, I don't trust dealers to be on the level with anyone. I wouldn't put it past them to sell a Prius to a higher bidder no matter where you are in line when they get a car. There are too many people chasing too few cars, and dealers will gouge mercilessly under those circumstances. In addition, I don't like some of what I'm hearing about the Southeast Distributor either, but, I'll be glad to tell where I got the car if and when I get it.
    Good Luck with yours.
  • SylviaSylvia Member Posts: 1,636
    ...be sure and call Toyota corporate in the US 1-800-GO TOYOTA and tell them about your dealership experience - that they should have told you months ago they couldn't get the car/package you had put a deposit on and were basically getting ready to bait & switch you.

    Toyota needs to know what their dealers are doing. A while back in another Toyota discussion, the person did call and did get some assistance from Toyota corporate on a dealer/purchase issue.

    Good luck.
  • karkuskarkus Member Posts: 11
    It occurred to me that I might be getting a demo since they got me one real quick (although they said I was getting one quick because someone cancelled the order and I just happened to want that package). How do you know it's a demo? Just by the high odometer reading? Also, I would asssume they would have to disclose that it's a demo, right?

    FYI, in Colorado they sell packages 3,7, and 9. Waiting lists seem to be 3 months or more.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > But your 2001 prius doesn't have TRAC no?

    Yup, it does!

    And no, there isn't a button available on either the 2001 or 2004.

    JOHN
  • officecorkofficecork Member Posts: 3
    This is a followup to my post #1602.
    I took my car back to the dealer for the following problems:
    Gas tank- Blinker signaled for gas at 232.1 miles. I filled tank with 6.83 gallons. Second fillup occurred when blinker signaled 270 miles, and I filled with 8.something gallons. I live in L.A. The dealer told me that someone else came in with the same problem. He said Toyota told the dealers that this is a cold weather problem, and they were working on it. Folks, cold weather in L.A.? The service guy told me that while in his shirtsleeves! That's laughable. What are the folks in Minnesota, Boston and other really cold weather places experiencing? ALSO, HE WARNED THAT THE GAUGE IS AN ACCURATE MEASURE OF WHAT'S IN THE TANK--IF IT IS BLINKING, GET GAS A.S.A.P!
    Mileage-- very poor mileage. On the freeway I get 48 mpg, which is very satisfactory. However, in the city, I get 37 mpg, which is almost half the EPA estimate.
    Dealer took my car on a drive, mixture of city and freeway, and told me he was getting 45 mpg combination. He said I don't drive enough per trip to get the great mileage EPA estimates. I do short trips up and down hills, but I did the same in my 1991 Infinity G20 and got within 2 miles of the EPA estimate. Would love to hear from others on this, especially L.A. residents. I am not a happy camper!
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    midnightcowboy, y'all come up to Minnesota and talk to a dealer up here. All the dealers I've talked with about the Prius in the Twin Cities have been up-front, professional, and courteous (even while some were telling me, "Sorry, but with the high demand we're selling them for MSRP."). Then you can hone your high-mpg skills on the drive back home.

    Re demos, if it has more than 10 miles I'd strongly suspect it's been used as a demo. Ask the dealer. Another possibility though is that it could have been driven from another dealer in a swap.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > in the city, I get 37 mpg

    A common problem many new owners have is that they are under the impression that conservative driving will yield high efficiency. In reality, just the opposite occurs. Accelerating slows hurts MPG.

    Brisk acceleration (quick, but not jack rabbit) provides impressive numbers.

    Also, don't be afraid to let the engine start back up just for a moment of extra thrust. That helps overall too. Since the stored electricity supply is limite, you want to get the most from it. That means using it for sustaining speed, speeding up while cruising.

    By the way, I've never seen MPG that low under normal driving conditions. That would shock me too. Mid 40's is what you should expect in the short-term. Later, your average should hover around 50 MPG.

    JOHN
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    The Toyota Hybrid concept has limitations.

    1. Regenerative braking is used to recover energy that would otherwise be lost. If you are in stop and go traffic a lot this can be a BIG advantage.

    2. If it's COLD outside or you set the heater temperature fairly high the engine will be operating continously just to generate the HEAT.

    3. If you select the mode that uses engine braking then there will be less opportunity for regenerative charging of the batteries.
  • oldfoxoldfox Member Posts: 29
    Just want to say again that no dealers in the SE Region can order a specific car with a specific pkg (Prius, that is) They are allocated so many prius per month from the Distributor in Jacksonville. When the car comes in the customer has the opportunity to play or pass. Remember they can seel the car in a few minutes on the phone. I know this is not the case in other regions just those of us lucky enu to live in the SE Region. Having said that I wouldn't leave these beautiful mountains of Western NC for anything even a Prius.
    I was informed, when I picked up my Prius last evening, that they are not even putting ;people on the waiting/allocation list anymore - lists are too long for the number of cars they expect to receive in all of 2004.
  • priusbuyerpriusbuyer Member Posts: 1
    I received my 2004 Prius on Nov. 30, and have driven about 300. I am very disappointed at the mileage. On the first tank (refilled at 175 miles), the car averaged 35 miles per gallon. About 90 of the first 175 miles was highway miles. The second tank has been all local driving, and after 125 miles, I am averaging just about 30 mpg. I have tried driving very conservatively, and also somewhat faster acceleration, but it doesn't seem to make a difference. It has been a little cold here in Pennsylvania, about 30 - 45 degrees, but I never expected it to affect mileage so much. I could be getting better mileage on a much less expensive Corolla!!! Does anyone have any suggestions?
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Turn off the heater and put on a good winter coat. The ICE is pretty inefficient at just being used to heat water.

    Shame they didn't make that electrically powered A/C compressor reversible.
  • harhirharhir Member Posts: 29
    I am not a Prius Owner but I saw an interesting article in the Dallas Morning News this weekend about the Prius.
    They stated that about 1800 new Prius are planned for deliverey in 2004 for Texas. But they also said that the current demand already exceeds this number and that most (if not all) of the local dealers do not accept any new contracts any more. They have been ordered so from Toyota Headquarters.
    And that the recent delivery times are supposed to exceed 6 months for the ones that just got ordered.

    On one side I am amazed about this demand in truck country. Economy really seem to pick up.
    On the other side the stories about the sales practices are really bad.
    I am not sure if I would to to buy one right now in regards to the behavior of Toyota and the dealers or if I would go for another vehicle like the Golf or Jetta Wagon TDI.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    It's kind of a moot point, at least in Texas, isn't it? It appears you couldn't buy one in Texas from a dealer right now even if you wanted one. Unless you're willing to travel a bit. I wonder how many Priuses are being sold in neighboring states, like Oklahoma and Arkansas?
  • little_pogilittle_pogi Member Posts: 149
    I recently made a trip(again work related) around So.Cal that took me in a loop from Glendale-SnBernardino-Palm Spring-Salton Sea-Calexico. My ODO initial reading was under 800 miles. Average freeway speed was 70 mph. That trip was 309 miles when I decide to fill up again. There were still 3 bars left on my fuel indicator. 7 gal to fill her up to register a 42.7 mpg mileage. The trip computer showed 47.9 mpg.

    On my way back via interstate 8 to San Diego-Temecula-Lake Elsinore-Corona-Pomona-El Monte-Glendale. I was impress with the Prius climbing power up the Cleveland National Forest. From a -80 ft elevation to 4100 ft, the car maintained a 65 mph cruise control setting even at a 5 mile 6% uphill grade. In the end, the trip computer showed 43 mpg. I was not able to fill that night but the fuel gauge also showed 3 bars left. Ave temp. during the trip was about 60 degrees. I also found out that trying to manually calculate mileage using the fill-up method vary drastically even though the car posted almost identical miles driven.

    To my fellow SoCal Prius owners experiencing somewhat lower than expected mileage, just give the engine ample time to smoothen those moving engine parts. It may take as much as 15k miles before you can see the true mileage your car is capable off.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > Does anyone have any suggestions?

    2 very helpful & simple things you can do is check your oil & tire pressure. Too much oil and not enough air both really hurt MPG.

    Oil should never be above the "Full" mark. About 1/4 inch below that mark is the ideal.

    PSI in the tires should be an absolute minimum of 35/33 (front/back). 42/40 is the ideal (measured cold & routinely).

    And if you'd like to easily squeeze out another MPG, switch to synthetic oil.

    JOHN
  • jankyjanky Member Posts: 1
    I noticed no one's said anything about availability in KY and was wondering if anyone out there knows the situation around Lexington. I'd go out of state if I had to.
  • oldfoxoldfox Member Posts: 29
    Picked up my Salsa Red with 3 miles on it. Now have total of 34 and find that I am getting 50 MPG, at least according to the screen. I have tried to drive this like a regular car but of course also try to get into electric only mode as often as possible. I am quite suprised at how easy it is to stay in the electric mode, just get up to speed and feather the gas - Viola! have had it up to 43mph before it kicks out. Of course the ICE kicks in and out when it wants to but am amazed at how much stealth driving I am getting. Reading these posts has helped a great deal.

    Based on what I have been reading I expected to have much more trouble staying in Stealth - Wonder if Toyota changed anything? Not sure of build date on mine but did just get it late on the 15th.

    PRIUSBUYER: Temps here have been low to mid 30 range. Have not used heat yet since we had a cold but very sunny day which helped keep it warm inside. I did raise my tire pressure to 42/40 per John's and many others recommendations. The car was 35psi all around when I picked it up.-
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > Stealth - Wonder if Toyota changed anything?

    Yes, they did. It is considerably easier to maintain stealth. In fact, it was nearly impossible in below-freezing temperatures with the classic. Now it takes just a little bit of foot work.

    I had a brief opportunity to try warm weather performance. It was mid 60's F, the ideal is about 80 F. The electric feel was fantastic. This spring sure is going to be exciting.

    JOHN
  • wco81wco81 Member Posts: 590
    Is that the electrical motor?

    If the battery levels get down too low, does the gas engine kick in even if you're going slow?
  • bkswardbksward Member Posts: 93
    Internal Combustion Engine
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > If the battery levels get down too low, does the
    > gas engine kick in even if you're going slow?

    Yes, but there are actually several factors that influence when the engine starts back up.

    One is to protect the battery-pack from a deep-discharge level. The engine will start to ensure the longest possible battery life, consuming gas to provide recharging.

    Another is the electric draw. If it exceeds 10kW, the engine starts.

    And another is the heater. If the core temperature drops below what's needed to achieve the warmth level you requested, the engine starts.

    A factor that is no longer a direct influence is the A/C. This is because the pump is now electric, rather than mechanically driven by a belt connected to the engine. So the engine will stay off much longer, without sacrificing any air cooling ability.

    JOHN
  • sbell4sbell4 Member Posts: 446
    I need a little help, what are the pkg # 9 cars going for and is the availability that hard to come by nationwide?

    Would you buy one on E-bay or is that a bad idea?

    I'm am just wanting some feedback....thanks
  • drscientificdrscientific Member Posts: 23
    Some people have requested "details" and suggested that this is an isolated incident. Juliaj had the same problem.

    What happens is that the series of warning lights beginning with "check engine" and continuing with "brake system warning," "anti-lock brake system," "vehicle stability control," and "slip indicator" come on. Some of these may not come on in some cases. There is definitely some randomness in this. The "master warning light" also comes on.

    The engine immediately shuts down. The motor remains functional. At highway speeds (we were on a 75mph interstate), the motor alone cannot support the speeds, and the car decelerates rapidly. The battery discharges quite quickly if you attempt to maintain any reasonable speed.

    Lest any of you readers think I'm making up some of this, I am including the information from the repairs. The first time this problem occurred was just after an oil change at 3466 miles (early because of long trip (approx 4,000 miles) home about to take place. I hadn't even moved the car from the dealer parking lot.

    Hyannis Toyota
    1020 Iyanough Road
    Hyannis, MA 02601
    508-775-1230

    Advisor: Linda Kay Hastings
    Mileage: 3,466
    R.O. Date: 12/03/03
    Invoice No.: TOCS237217
    VIN: JTDKB20U140009751

    Check engine light is on.
    Scanned ECU code POA4B. Cleared all codes. Codes reset on 2nd start. Hard fault codes reset on 2nd key cycle. Diag per attached. All valves within spec. Called tech line. Ck for water in M5 connector. None on outside noted. Tech line said swap ECUs if easily accessible. No easy access. Call tech line again. Removed M5 connector. Found moisture condition in connector. Cleaned and packed with dielectric grease. All good. Needs trans replacement for permanent repair. Cust in transit. T-1 66 T-2 48

    The next time (at 5,154 miles), we were in Alabama and were towed to Jackson, MS because the trained Prius technician in Meridian, MS was out for the day -- a double tow. They wrote that "Gas engine quit, and warning light came on. Cleaned water from connector and apply NAPA dielectric grease, retested and cleared info."

    Both service departments were very friendly and helpful.

    Note that the second service was identical with the first. Now, Toyota says that this fix (greasing the M5 connector) is the "permanent" fix and is refusing to consider our situation any longer. Yet the error condition recurred three times after the first fix, one in full view of the Jackson Toyota service department.

    Furthermore, the second fix involved a different grease. In other words, we're the guinea pigs for this problem. I am unwilling to wait until the problem recurs yet again -- at the possible loss of my life -- to get this problem fixed permanently.

    I have escalated the problem through Toyota customer service and may have to wait three days to explain the problem to yet another member of the Toyota team. In the meantime, my Prius will stay off of the freeways here in California.

    If I have not provided enough details to satisfy the doubting Thomases among you, let me know.

    I believe the first mechanic. He said that the M5 connector was the wrong design and had been replaced in newer builds. By the time we had the second breakdown, they must have decided that replacing transmissions was too expensive. A dab of grease costs much less. Imagine them deciding that they wait until a few people die before undergoing such an expensive recall. I will not be one of those people. If necessary, under California's lemon laws, we'll get a refund. Then, we can use the money to get a new (with correct M5 connect) Prius. This is one way to get around this problem.
  • oldfoxoldfox Member Posts: 29
    Darscientific: I believe you. Why on earth would anyone lie about something like this? Do you by any chance know when the fix (Correct M5 Connect) was made? I picked my Prius up on the 15. Don't know how to tell when it was built Do you? This is scary stuff.
  • drscientificdrscientific Member Posts: 23
    Some people have requested "details" and suggested that this is an isolated incident. Juliaj had the same problem.

    What happens is that the series of warning lights beginning with "check engine" and continuing with "brake system warning," "anti-lock brake system," "vehicle stability control," and "slip indicator" come on. Some of these may not come on in some cases. There is definitely some randomness in this. The "master warning light" also comes on.

    The engine immediately shuts down. The motor remains functional. At highway speeds (we were on a 75mph interstate), the motor alone cannot support the speeds, and the car decelerates rapidly. The battery discharges quite quickly if you attempt to maintain any reasonable speed.

    Lest any of you readers think I'm making up some of this, I am including the information from the repairs. The first time this problem occurred was just after an oil change at 3466 miles (early because of long trip (approx 4,000 miles) home about to take place. I hadn't even moved the car from the dealer parking lot.

    Hyannis Toyota
    1020 Iyanough Road
    Hyannis, MA 02601
    508-775-1230

    Advisor: Linda Kay Hastings
    Mileage: 3,466
    R.O. Date: 12/03/03
    Invoice No.: TOCS237217
    VIN: JTDKB20U140009751

    Check engine light is on.
    Scanned ECU code POA4B. Cleared all codes. Codes reset on 2nd start. Hard fault codes reset on 2nd key cycle. Diag per attached. All valves within spec. Called tech line. Ck for water in M5 connector. None on outside noted. Tech line said swap ECUs if easily accessible. No easy access. Call tech line again. Removed M5 connector. Found moisture condition in connector. Cleaned and packed with dielectric grease. All good. Needs trans replacement for permanent repair. Cust in transit. T-1 66 T-2 48

    The next time (at 5,154 miles), we were in Alabama and were towed to Jackson, MS because the trained Prius technician in Meridian, MS was out for the day -- a double tow. They wrote that "Gas engine quit, and warning light came on. Cleaned water from connector and apply NAPA dielectric grease, retested and cleared info."

    Both service departments were very friendly and helpful.

    Note that the second service was identical with the first. Now, Toyota says that this fix (greasing the M5 connector) is the "permanent" fix and is refusing to consider our situation any longer. Yet the error condition recurred three times after the first fix, one in full view of the Jackson Toyota service department.

    Furthermore, the second fix involved a different grease. In other words, we're the guinea pigs for this problem. I am unwilling to wait until the problem recurs yet again -- at the possible loss of my life -- to get this problem fixed permanently.

    I have escalated the problem through Toyota customer service and may have to wait three days to explain the problem to yet another member of the Toyota team. In the meantime, my Prius will stay off of the freeways here in California.

    If I have not provided enough details to satisfy the doubting Thomases among you, let me know.

    I believe the first mechanic. He said that the M5 connector was the wrong design and had been replaced in newer builds. By the time we had the second breakdown, they must have decided that replacing transmissions was too expensive. A dab of grease costs much less. Imagine them deciding that they wait until a few people die before undergoing such an expensive recall. I will not be one of those people. If necessary, under California's lemon laws, we'll get a refund. Then, we can use the money to get a new (with correct M5 connect) Prius. This is one way to get around this problem.
  • drscientificdrscientific Member Posts: 23
    Your build number is the last six digits of your VIN. Mine is 9751. I'm unsure as to when the new M5 connector went in. I have only the verbal assurance from the Hyannis service manager that it even did.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > Darscientific: I believe you.

    I do too. It is a geniune incident. Thanks for the detail... which is absolutely essential for lemon-law litigation. You'll thank me for forcing you to well document your experiences. Without lots of detail, your requests won't proceed anywhere. They'll just blame it on a misdiagnosis or untimely follow up to a problem that wasn't originally that bad.

    What I don't believe is that this is cronic. A report or two isn't enough to say an entire production build of vehicles are included. Keep in mind that those of us in the north are exposing our Prius to excessive amounts of moisture without experiencing the same problem.

    Detail from Toyota is the next step. There would be a TSB if widespread repair/replacements are needed (that's how they inform the service staff). Finding out what a "M5" is, where it is, how much it costs, and what it takes to replace it would be most revealing. We'd also like to know how it is different from the connector already in the 120,000 Prius on roads worldwide using the pre-2004 design.

    JOHN
  • drscientificdrscientific Member Posts: 23
    Your build number is the last six digits of your VIN. Mine is 9751. I'm unsure as to when the new M5 connector went in. I have only the verbal assurance from the Hyannis service manager that it even did.
  • drscientificdrscientific Member Posts: 23
    john1701a:

    > What I don't believe is that this is cronic. A report or two isn't enough to say an entire production build of vehicles are included. Keep in mind that those of us in the north are exposing our Prius to excessive amounts of moisture without experiencing the same problem.

    You have only my word that the Hyannis people told me it was a build error in using the wrong connector and that the grease is a temporary fix. He told me this after consulting with the Toyota tech line! Today, Toyota claims that the grease is a "permanent" fix.

    You also only have my word that the Jackson mechanic explained that the connector is **inside** the transmission and so is not affected by outside conditions.

    The explanation for the failure is as follows (as I recall from my discussions with the two mechanics and/or service advisors).

    Water condenses on the wire that leads to the M5 connector. This takes place inside the transaxle. This water travels down the wire and into the connector itself. Moisture in the connector causes random failure because of interference with signals being sent around the car.

    Check your build number. Mine is under 10,000. If yours is sufficiently above it, then you have the proper connector. The alternate explanation is that all of these people were lying to me -- possible, but not likely -- and that Toyota is not hiding the truth because they'd really like to replace 10,000 transaxles, which (by the way) would impact their ability to build and ship more new Priuses and so would cost them much more than just the transaxle costs.

    If my problem (and that of juliaj) is unique, nothing more will happen. If, instead, more reports like mine occur (with the grease fix), then Toyota will eventually have to own up to the error, especially if the grease fix isn't "permanent." A few deaths would help to get their attention. I'm not volunteering and I'm fairly sure that no one else on this list will either.
  • galootgaloot Member Posts: 13
    Who gave you the SE allocation information?? I had 4 dealers in SC quote the package I wanted. They all gave me deliveries anywhere from 30 to 120 days. None of them even hinted that they had no choice of packages and that I would have to choose from what comes in.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > The alternate explanation is that all of these people were
    > lying to me

    The catch is the dealer won't pay for work themselves. They will either make the customer pay or submit a warranty claim. Having a TSB makes warranty redemption simple, so they are more than happy to offer the service (work for their mechanics).

    It's those unique occurences that they don't usually want to deal with, since all that dealing with corporate sometimes leave them with a frustrated customer and a lot of wasted time. That's where in the past owners have caught dealers leaving out rather important details and yes, lying. Others have reported dealers going way out of their way to learn what the problem was and fix it according, which is obviously better than replacing an entire sub-system or ignoring the owner hoping they'll just try to find help elsewhere.

    So over the past 3 years, we've seen reports of all types. Lack of detail is a clear way to avoid that. It's also a good way to help others, we are able to problem-solve quickly by comparing data and finding a pattern.

    Just look up "tire wear". The solution owners found, based on DETAIL they shared, helped a bunch of others from ever having to deal with it.

    JOHN
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    that since demand is very high in many states, most US dealers would have at least a small waiting list just for the Prius. Motor Trend did state that Toyota could increase Prius production to 47,000 (or some number close) cars for the US market. Demand in Japan has already gone through the roof, so the plant (at least I would think) is operating at full capacity or is operating very close to full capacity.
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