Toyota Prius

usbseawolf2000

You are welcome. What do you think about the fuel economy figures? With the context of that paragraph, it sound like the figures are from their 600km drive. The figures match Canadian Toyota numbers like moparbad pointed out.

Dennis

mfullmer

I just saw something I thought was interesting. I use less gallons of gas in my Tahoe in 6 months than you use in your Prius!

You have 15k in 6 months and I have 13k in 18 months (or 4,333 in 6 months). At an avg. of 48 mpg you used 312.5 gallons over 6 months. At an avg. of 15.2 mpg I used 285 gallons over 6 months. I almost thought to myself - Why do I need a Prius then? Then my accounting mind went to work. If I ever do get a Prius I will save a lot of money!

In six months I could possibly save $339 dollars every 6 months! (Not to mention the difference between 45k & 26k!) Now if only I could get memory seats and a sunroof in the baby.

Oh another thing - Does anyone out there have any problem with the name? I get so embarrassed because I can't the pronunciation "pri-us" out of my mind. I say that every time instead of "pre-us". ARGH!

john1701a

Yet, you still polluted more... interesting.

The NOx (smog) emissions are significantly higher in the Tahoe, even though it used less gas than the Prius! That "PZEV" rating Prius has means it is 90% cleaner than the average vehicle in 2003.

I'd have to drive quite a bit more to catch up to you.

And needless to say, that's why I want to get HSD installed into vehicles like Tahoe. They'll benefit from both an efficiency & emissions improvement, even if their particular configuration is tuned more toward power than Prius.

JOHN

mfullmer

Yeah, I realized the emissions thing (although I put out WAY LESS than 50% of the vehicles out on road!). I'm more interested in the technical and gas saving features of the Prius at this point though.

john1701a

> you used 312.5 gallons

Actually, it was only 281.25 gallons.

The fuel I used is E10, which is only 90% gas.

JOHN

rfruth

Tell me more, I'd like a Package #8 (rear window wiper; smart entry and start; JBL Premium 3-in-1 AM/FM Cassette/6-disc in-dash CD changer, nine speakers, voice-activated DVD navigation system with hands-free phone capability) in silver but any color would do for me if the price is right... i'm in Texas and am not willing to go 1/2 way across the country to save $ 500. but for $ 2000. I would, whats the deal ? Sent a e-mail to above address.

djasonw

http://www.smartmoney.com/consumerreports/autos/index.cfm?story=r- eport109&nav=CR_hp

This really amazes me!!!

linda1

According to my local (los angeles) car wash and Toyota engineering customer service: the 2004 can not go through an automated car wash with out a driver and the car in neutral. Putting it in neutral involves several steps such as brake off and on and power off and on. Basically this comes down to a pain in the neck because I don't want to alwys wash the car myself or have th e double the cost real personalized hand wash, My car wash will go through the toyota procedure but ONLY if they are not busy. So anyone out there have some ideas? Linda

mfullmer

Please, you still used 312.5 gallons of FUEL in the vehicle.

mfullmer

Ok, with the Tahoe lease ending in January I decided to try, yet again to rent a Prius. Something must be going on because, unlike my previous two times (May and April), I was able to pick one up from a dealer not too far away in a couple of hours of sending my email. My experience so far.

When I picked up the car yesterday evening, someone must have left something on all weekend because the thing was totally dead. It took about 45 minutes but whatever they did worked. I took my partner and some older, non-technological friends out running around and to dinner (They loved it and decided they need one too!). I was very, very impressed with the entire driving experience. Anyone who says this thing doesn't have enough power either hasn't driven one or expect their car to drive like an Indy car.

I'm not sure about the interior - I can't wait to see a new one. (What is it with people who rent cars and trash them?!?!? I'd hate to see their cars.) I have a silver one that is base, base, base. Not even the pkg. 1. None of us liked the "purple" dash. No big deal as I'll be getting a Salsa Red with Tan interior. The seats are comfortable but I really miss my power adjustments (or at least a manual height adjuster). I know the weight is why they don't have them and I was surprised that I didn't feel too low. I don't like the seating material. Luckily leather is an option in the south (dealer installed). I miss a sunroof. I need to check into that. Everyone was mesmerized by the display. I couldn't go in stealth mode because I had to have the A/C on (Atlanta-Summer=A/C). I did, however, get 52.1 mpg on the trip home (A long wait in traffic from the dealership to the freeway (god, I hate the suburbs!) and then a nice 12 mile ride into the city, 2.5 miles off the freeway to home.). Not bad at all! The car has 13k miles on it.

I hope they change the lighting so that ALL Prius markets get the auto lights. I haven't had a vehicle without auto lights since 1992 and I'm used to it and miss it. Maybe I can have it installed?

Other than that, everyone loved it. I have to admit, I love it also. I'm beginning the process today to get a Salsa Red Pkg #9 in around December (in order to get the $1,500 deduction). Wish me luck!

lee_w

Sorry, but we don't buy and sell on this board, only discuss prices Paid and Buying Experience. I am sure you will find some helpful information on the topic. Goodluck!

backy

Sunroof--unlikely that will happen due to the curvature of the roof.

Auto lights--do you know that if you leave the light switch on, they will go off by themselves when you shut the car off, and then turn on again when you start it up?

john1701a

> you still used 312.5 gallons

WRONG!

That number wasn't ever correct in the first place, but I went along an humored you anyway.

My "6 month" usage was only 239.462 gallons.

I have no clue where you got that other amount from. It certainly isn't list on my spreadsheets anywhere. And the 15,000 mile quote is for 8 months of driving, not 6.

JOHN

mfullmer

I got that from your own website. "Lifetime MPG as of 15,259 was 48.0". I actually rounded your mileage DOWN. According to your own average that calculates to 317.89 gallons.

If you really want to change others perceptions about the Prius and hybrid technology you really need to get over yourself. Your angry social stance really doesn't help your cause. You have a wealth of information and experience yet your vitriolic response to anything that you consider remotely negative (which I didn't think I was being) makes your message moot.

One does not have to love and be positive about 100% of everything Prius in order to validate it. It has validated itself not only in it's performance (as a viable vehicle) but also in the fact that it is so popular people can hardly get them.

Calm down. I have never fallen in love with any vehicle and, while I'm working on ordering mine now, I'm not going to fall in love with a Prius. At the end of the day it's just a material object.

midnightcowboy

If you divide distance travelled by 281.25 instead of 312.5 then you get higher mpg and that is the goal isn't to obtain the highest written documented mpg ;}

Since it was 10% Ethanol and only 90% gas, he multiplied the actual 312.5 gallons by .9 to get 281.25 gallons of gas only ( mathematically removing hte Ethanol).

I always wondered how someone gets higher mpg than the masses; now i know.

YMMV,

MidCow

mfullmer

...Even the trashed (by people), no option rental I have kicks axx!

This car rocks and I cannot believe how much power it has.

Now I just have to wait until December (or later) UGH!

midnightcowboy

Mfullmer,

Good honest review on the Prius.

Thanks,

MidCow

john1701a

Several times you claimed those were my "6 month" values. Clearly, they were not.

In reality, I traveled almost 4,000 miles less than what you posted.

Being misrepresented is what causes replies of that nature. Stick to the facts (in detail, please) and all will be fine.

JOHN

footbag

After a short one month wait, I got the call that my blue Prius arrived yesterday (for once, an advantage to living in Canada!). I took it for a test drive, and loved the experience. The car is wonderfully quiet. I found myself trying various things to have the car run on electric only. I had owned an Insight for two years, and there really isn't a comparison, the Prius is so much better in so many ways. The salesman made a strong case for the extended comprensive warranty, so I paid the $1000 extra and got it. What is the opinion of the group on the extended warranty?

midnightcowboy

Most extended warranties do not pay for themselves especially on highly reliable cars such as Toyota. The new technology, the HSD system , is covered by an extended warranty already.

If possible, I would go back to the dealer and get your money back.

YMMV,

MidCow

djasonw

Actually $1000 CDN is worth it. I paid $987 US for mine as it extends the 36k bumper to bumper to 100,000 miles. With all the electronic systems in this car as well as other untested technology (electric A/C) it was worth it. You also get a loaner car anytime your car is in for warranty work. I paid under list for the car, so in my eyes it was money well spent. I get piece of mind for seven years. To me, that's definitely worth it. Also helps on resale if you don't keep the car.

ruking1

I would also agree! You are much better off keeping or saving the money in a bank account specifically for this purpose. (most of not all folks NEVER even do this). I try to keep cars to the 10/15/20 year lifecycle intervals. Even on a "high maintenance, high mileage" Toyota Landcruiser, I only spent 2200 dollars in unscheduled maintenance (most being labor), master/slave cylinder, starter, alternator, radiator, main parts) over 250,000 miles.

Since batteries on your car can cost 140 dollars per module and 28 modules, and is designed to go 150,000-200,000 miles, if you check the fine print of your contract I bet it does not cover that replacement!?

john1701a

I didn't purchase an extended warranty all 3 times I was faced with the decision.

The first was when I got my 2001 Prius. The second was at 36,000 miles, when the bumper-to-bumper expired (the final chance to extend). And the third was when I bought my 2004 Prius.

Toyota makes remarkably reliable vehicles in the first place. And after studying THS/HSD for well over 4 years now, I can see that it offers a huge advantage in reliability in the LONG-TERM.

Though... for the sake of piece-of-mind (especially for those that don't have engineering and/or automotive educations), short-term comfort can be acquired from getting an extended warranty.

An interesting side note is that I did purchase an extended warranty for my 1994 Taurus. And it did pay for itself twice over. That was the very reason I went on a quest for better technology. I wasn't impressed with what the 20th Century had to offer.

JOHN

john1701a

> batteries on your car can cost 140 dollars per module

Quoting debut prices implies that they won't drop at all by the time a new owner drives a minimum of 150,000 miles.

All new technologies carry a premium at first, not pointing that out is misleading. The fact that high-volume production has not begun yet and the fact that the same modules will be used in other HSD systems need to be stated, since that will be a significant influence toward causing cost-reduction.

There will also be supplier competition later. (Sanyo, Duracell, Energizer, Rayovac, etc. will obviously not just sit there and watch Panasonic monopolize the entire module market.) That will obviously help drop the prices consumers pay.

Lastly, the fact that not all modules need to be replaced at once should be mentioned.

And finally, the criteria for replacement must be stated. Right now, there is no proof at all that replacement will ever be needed. It is only implied based on battery experience that does not even match the cycling-technique used by HSD (which is hardly objective).

JOHN

john1701a

> Putting it in neutral involves several steps such as brake off and on and power off and on.

WHAT THE HECK?

To shift into neutral, you just slide the lever from "D" to "N".

That's it!

The information you were given is clearly incorrect. Shifting works exactly like a traditional vehicle.

JOHN

ruking1

"All new technologies carry a premium at first, not pointing that out is misleading."

I think assuming and implying that the price will go down is CLEARLY misleading! Also, I have had to buy things on various cars that actually increased in price, as the vehicles have got older. So unless you are the "guarantor" that the prices will go down and will make good on it, then what you imply can be grossly misleading. This of course does not include the labor rate. Do you think labor rates have been going down also? Also the implication you espouse also ignores the fact that the price of the car to its nearest competitor has gone up from 13-15k to 25-30k. I have mentioned this in considering the economic ramifications, but again you have clearly ignored this also.

mfullmer

"4,000 miles less"?????? I used your figures. The 6 months is a non-issue.

Get over yourself.

You traveled 15,xxx miles. I traveled 13,000. It makes you look grossly defensive to argue about a non-issue. Mileage is mileage.

Why do you try to MISLEAD and MISREPRESENT yourself by saying your mileage was "4,000 miles less". I guess when you are you, 15,000 can be whatever you want it to be in order to make your point.

--

Sylvia

Both sides of the aisles. If you disagree - disagree and move on.

gagrice

Quoting debut prices implies that they won't drop at all by the time a new owner drives a minimum of 150,000 miles.

I think that assuming that the price of batteries will go down because of mass production is a fallacy. Of all the things having to do with lap top computers, cameras, and electronics the cost of replacement batteries has gone up. I am paying more for my NiMH Canon batteries than when it was new 3 years ago. True you can buy generic batteries cheap. And generally that is what you get a cheap battery. I don't think anyone in their right mind would put a cheap replacement battery in a car they depend on. That said I believe replacement batteries will be much more expensive 8 years from now, when and if you have to replace them.

mfullmer

While I was out to lunch this afternoon (and sitting in traffic) the battery bars sat at two red bars for a while. It would recharge a bit from light to light but then drop down.

I saw absolutely no difference in performance, of the car or the A/C, but was wondering if this is normal. Could it have something to do with the fact that the car was totally dead when I picked it up and they had to charge it up a bit?

It was kind of cool because it never dipped to one red bar and the engine kicked in a few times while stopped to give it a little boost.

mfullmer

According the spreadsheet you have on your website, listing the last fill-up of 6/25/04, you had 15,259 miles and had put 317.871 gallons of gas in.

Wasn't that nearly exactly what I calculated?

john1701a

Here's the actual data:

6-25-04__15,259__317.871
6-18-04__14,784__308.705
6-09-04__14,304__300.176
5-31-04__13,830__291.505
5-25-04__13,430__283.000
5-15-04__12,943__275.142
5-08-04__12,487__266.709
4-30-04__12,004__257.490
4-22-04__11,534__248.573
4-17-04__11,074__239.462
4-14-04__10,701__231.518
4-08-04__10,336__224.855
3-31-04__9,887__215.755
3-27-04__9,691__211.919
3-20-04__9,278__203.419
3-13-04__8,899__195.588
3-07-04__8,513__186.873
2-29-04__8,094__178.495
2-23-04__7,725__171.040
2-14-04__7,350__162.574
2-08-04__6,998__154.647
1-31-04__6,663__146.727
1-26-04__6,392__139.624
1-24-04__6,041__131.674
1-20-04__5,818__126.729
1-15-04__5,440__117.492
1-07-04__5,075__108.985
12-31-03__4,715__100.701
12-24-03__4,339__92.537
12-20-03__4,034__85.990
12-14-03__3,663__78.241
12-07-03__3,311__70.002
11-30-03__2,906__61.756
11-29-03__2,594__54.381
11-23-03__2,282__47.238
11-17-03__1,934__41.083
11-11-03__1,529__32.241
11-06-03__1,149__23.610
10-31-03__749__15.065
10-28-03__425__8.666
10-23-03__***__***

JOHN

mfullmer

Your "48.0" avg. MPG is right on the mark.

Over my 72 miles put on the rental since yesterday afternoon I averaged 51.2 MPG. Not bad seeing as I'd never driven the Prius before. Now I need to REALLY get into your site and find out all of your tips.

I can't help myself looking at the screen though and trying to make the engine not cut in while I'm accelerating. I have, however, mastered the "Pre-us" pronunciation. That didn't take long.

ruking1

I also think that one thing that is utilized, but is not really high tech (but very effective) is a psychological behavior technique, sort of a machine/human bio/mechanical feedback interface/loop. I have this on one vehicle, and it is a good tool, but realistically, I don't use it at all. I am sure if the TDI had it; one could ring out better fuel mileage than the 45-50 mpg that mine gets now. I'd SWAG easily, 10-20% MORE: range, 49-60 mpg.

I am guessing that the majority of dissatisfied Prius owners probably do no use it like John to get 45-49 mpg. To be fair this is not entirely the fault of the OEM's!

john1701a

> Your "48.0" avg. MPG is right on the mark.

Just keep in mind that it only represent the MOSTLY-WINTER & NON-BROKEN-IN miles.

A true representation of "average" cannot be obtained without a minimum of a full year of data. Since the following months are clearly much, much, much more efficient than the initial ones.

Last month's average was 53.7 MPG.

This month's average will be above 54 MPG.

The current tank (final tank in June) is at 292 miles and the Multi-Display is reporting 59.1 MPG. That is unquestionably my best tank ever. (So I'll be careful to fill my tank exactly the same way at the same pump at the same station to eliminate factors that contribute to bad measurement.)

JOHN

mfullmer

A true representation of "average" cannot be obtained without a minimum of a full year of data.

Not only is that a totally untrue statement it is a misrepresentation of the mathematical equation of "Average". "Average" is just the number that typifies a set of numbers of which it is a function - ie: miles driven / gallons used = Average miles per gallon. You do not need a quantifying term of data to come to an average.

Now the "Law of Averages" states that, in time everything "evens out".

While the "Law of Averages" would seem to present that, over a years worth of data your low (heh, can you believe I'm saying "low"???) initial, cold weather average will even out in the long term average.

However, your mileage over gallons at any given time is still a TRUE REPRESENTATION of your average.

midnightcowboy

But you have to take into account the COLA and inflation and bring the future pricing back to today's dollars.

YMMV,

MidCow

mfullmer

I don't understand why it is unattainable from the "sides".

I think the moderates of this world have such a happy life.

Does the person who gets a 35 MPG average really matter?

Does the person who gets a 59.1 MPG average really matter?

Extremes in any case cannot be given the edge in quantifying data. If we're talking averages we should do a poll. How many respondants over average MPG. That will give us a true Average MPG for the car as far as the people using this board goes.

john1701a

> Not only is that a totally untrue statement it is a misrepresentation of the mathematical equation of "Average".

MATH does *NOT* take into account at all the fact that WINTER efficiency is significantly lower than SUMMER.

That should *NOT* be ignored.

If I wanted to misrepresent MPG, all I would have to do is report data from only the warm months. But I'm not. I'm being totally upfront about the differences the seasons cause.

Also, you are totally forgetting about "weighted" averages. Taking account distance traveled during the warm & cold months is very important too. So even that mathematical definition is skewed.

How about just focusing on the numbers instead of the person?

JOHN

mfullmer

Hmmm. Math. Numbers. That's what I was talking about. "Don't talk about Math because that doesn't suit me." "Just talk numbers because that's what suits me." WHATEVER!

I'm sorry that I have intruded into your little world, John. I tried to complement you on your exhaustive site and your information about techniques yet remain the moderate that I am and disagree with certain dogmatic views you present.

All I've been met with is double talk from you that turns the tables constantly in order to suit you.

I'll take a break from all of this and just concentrate on learning about my (soon to be) new Prius that I'll be getting. After looking at more and more of your postings I'm beginning to think you are very narrow minded person who cannot be bothered with any opinion, fact, or statistic that does not serve your "Long-term" purpose.

-Peace.

mfullmer

The only good thing about all of this extremism is that we have a really cool, really fun, really great vehicle with which to be excited about.

midnightcowboy

Why stop there we could have Spring and Fall mileage.

Wait even better we could take the average temperature for the day in each area and compute mileage by the daily temperature. To make sure it was somewhat correct you could fill your tank up each day.

Wait even that would be a swing in temperature during the day. How about looking at the external temperature and if it changed more than a few degrees go out and refill the gas tank as calculate the mpg based on temperature. What the heck , who cares if you had to fill up several times a day at increments of maybe less than a gallon.

Maybe the Summer and Winter mileage even needs to be regionalized. San Deigo would have to be eliminated becuase a constant 68 degrees would skew the results. Minnesotta has to be exclude because the winters are too cold ( Woah! that would invalidate all of Mr. Fagnant's data; can't do that).

Maybe the data are taken from a city that represewnts the average temperature in the United States and all information would be based on that. But wait, what if the driver is a very conservative go for the mpg driver than never gets over 45 mph. Would that be skewed by the pedal to the medal 38 mpg driver.

Wow! math just can't cover all these issues. Wait a minute maybe their is something beyond simple averages. Let's see standard deviation, least squares fitting, fast Fourier transforms, signal processing, Kalman filtering, cubic spline interpolation, means, linear regression, variable correlation, scatter plotting.

Maybe even some controlled measurements to determine how temperature really affects mileage and then some adjusted formulas would help.

Let's see: effective mpg = measure mpg * (1 + (68/(ambient temp F)*.025)

LOL - The old computer term GI/GO ( Garbage In/ Garbage Out)
        

YMMV,

MidCow

gagrice

Maybe to avoid extremism you should re-think your vehicle decision. It's not too late to get a Passat TDI or even better a Mercedes E320 CDI. Have luxury and great mileage. I'm not sure a moderate will fit in the seat of a Prius. Enjoy whatever you buy, and don't let the dealer over charge you.

john1701a

Now you even get the point! Ahhh!

BIG PICTURE has been what I've been trying to put emphasis on all along.

When people focus on very narrow chunks of data (exactly what just happened), they are bound to come to the wrong conclusion... hence my full-year, all-seasons push.

LONG-TERM means lots of data from lots of sources. That will provide a true representation of what the story actually is.

JOHN

john1701a

> After looking at more and more of your postings

There are far more than just what you find here only.

Elsewhere, my posts are very very very very different. This particular forum has an extremely unique membership... one that thrives on disproving everything rather than gathering data from a broad spectrum of sources.

It is simply the nature of the forum, not a good or bad thing.

Haven't you ever played devil's advocate in a particular setting?

JOHN

mfullmer

What? I never even considered any of those vehicles. Are you saying that the Prius is not a car for everyone? It only fits into a small niche of extremists?

I'll have my Prius and I'll enjoy it very much, thank you. Have a great narrow minded life.

mfullmer

"...one that thrives on disproving everything..."

God, this is just what I am talking about. Anyone who says anything negative about the Holy Prius is "thriving on disproving everything". You are a piece of work. I hope you don't fit everything in your life and work into such small little boxes.

I would venture to say that the majority of people everywhere love things about their vehicle and dislike things about their vehicle. Some may even love their vehicle and hate certain things about it. That does not consitute hatred for the vehicle.

If being a Prius owner means that I have to be narrow minded and intolerant of anyone who sees a flaw in any aspect of it maybe I SHOULD rethink my choice.

john1701a

> who says anything negative

Negative?

Where did that come from?

The posts have been about using *incorrect* data.

Remember, 8 month data was claimed to be 6 months.

JOHN

ruking1

"The posts have been about using *incorrect* data."

No, you posted a huge amount of undistilled information only after being asked numerous times to post it. The truth is you could have posted the range say 45-54 mpg and given your average and I for one would have believed you. Instead you are focusing on a so called calculation mistake that you could have easily avoided by being clear! YOU were not!

Sylvia

Data is fine and great. Let's NOT get into 50 posts of finger-pointing, decimal-pointing and you said, I said, he said, blah.

If anyone's purpose here is to only stir the pot, I think we all can use a break from that. I don't mind someone defending or providing a better explanation of how they arrived at a calculation, but at some point this horse needs a proper burial.

When people click into this thread, they expect a discussion about the Prius - features, driving, questions and answers. All it is right now is a bashing of spreadsheets. Not truly informative (really) and not at all inviting.

I've had people email me stating that they want to post about the Prius but they find the punching back and forth to be intimidating. Boy, that helps the image of the Prius.

So, to sound like a broken record - agree to disagree and move on.