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Comments
> long ago that received 50 + on the hwy without
> electrics
So do I. But they were very, very dirty by today's standards. The priority to reduce emissions has caused traditional designs to become less efficient.
Also, I find it rather fascinating that you are asking questions I haven't heard in over 3 years. (In fact, I forgot about the spark/valve difference as a result.) Tapping a brand new audience of online forum participants quite refreshing.
> As for the CVT, no one really knows if that belt
There is no belt in a Planetary-CVT. You are thinking of the cone type.
JOHN
> more time with hybrid technology
Hybrids require motor & battery improvements of size, weight, power, and efficiency. All of which are direct benefits to fuel-cell vehicles.
The motor will be used to propel the fuel-cell vehicle. The battery will be used for the startup process and long-term storage of recaptured energy.
That sure sounds like time well spent to me, especially since funding for the next step will come from consumers rather than a "donation" from the government.
JOHN
Canada will become a major oil supplier.
On the other side, China has moved from #8 to #5 in the world automobile
(vehicles with 4 or more wheels) sales in Year 2002.
In 10 years, they will import atleast 1/2 of what America imports.
If Canada is an alternative to Saudi Arabia in supply, then
China is an alternative to America in demand.
So oil prices will still stay at $ 25 / barrel. Don’t dream of below $ 20.
Go to "Understanding the Prius"
If you want to know just about the (2001-2003)
Prius' engine vs. that of the Echo, I then suggest
reading the "The Internal Combustion Engine" section.
I know that the THS-II (Toyota Hybrid Synergy Drive)
that's on the 2004 Prius is beefed up from the old
THS, but I don't recall what points at the moment,
but I'm certain that the Toyota documents on THS-II
cover the differences.
http://john1701a.com/prius/prius-presentations04.htm
It was originally a PowerPoint file for use at forums. Now it's 54 webpages (loaded with lots of info & photos about the 2004 model) available to us online.
JOHN
___I have no delusions about oil going any direction. I just mentioned to Daina about the amount of oil available in the Oil Sands which is great for Canada as a whole.
___Mrvadeboncoeur, thank you for the link as well. I also didn’t know about the Prius’ planetary CVT until John mentioned that it was not belt driven like most others and your link showed it in detail. Great site if I do say so myself.
___Jchan2, I haven’t heard back from the 03 Prius E-Bay purchaser so far? As for your other comments, I don’t really care if you can load up an EX or a Prius although many may? I only care if I can get a reasonably loaded 04 Prius for $15,200 like I did the Corolla LE. You know, Automatic, ABS, EBFD, A/C, Power Windows, Locks, Mirrors, Cruise, and 40 + mpg? It’s even cheaper now with the $600 cash back! For only $1,300 more, I could have had Leather and a Sunroof! Unfortunately, it appears as if the 04 Prius will be ~ $5,000 short of those numbers. With the 40,000 to 50,000 miles/year I travel now, at least I only have to wait ~ 5 or 6 more years ...
___And to continue on with the affordability issue ... Why didn’t Toyota get the new Prius down to an affordable level? After reading 5 hours worth of posts in the “Is it time to buy a hybrid? Are they up to the chore?” thread, someone posted a link that I thought was interesting.
“37% of respondents would be willing to pay an additional $1,000 or more for a hybrid vehicle.”
___The above quote was found here: http://www.motorportal.com/pr%20newswire/hybrid_vehicle_demand.htm.
___What is the percentage that would consider a Hybrid at $4,000 - $5,000 +?
___At least there is even more interest in the 04 Toyota Hybrid than the previous generation. I can only hope it brings the cost down to affordable levels in the near future for all so that my next vehicle is a Hybrid as well. Unless I can find a low mileage 01/02 Insight w/ Manual transmission for < $11,000
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
Prius was intentionally designed to fit between Corolla & Camry.
The reason is because Toyota wants to increase market share, that means not competing with itself. A hybrid Corolla would take away from regular Corolla sales. But since Prius is a little better in basically every respect (except emissions & efficiency, which is a lot better), there is no way to directly compare them.
Also, many people are still under the impression that because a hybrid gets fantastic MPG that it must be an "economy" car. And that's just plain not true. Toyota's strategy forces people to check their facts.
In time, there really will be a hybrid Corolla available. The price will be close to what you'd expect it to be.
JOHN
>John said: Prius was intentionally designed to fit between Corolla & Camry.
___It sure was ... Your 01 Prius was designed as the smallest Toyota available here in the states given it is smaller than the Echo according to Toyota? The only reason the 04 Prius is considered a Midsize is because of the hatch. In any case, the 04 Prius Hatchback is closer to a Camry (+ 6.1 cu ft) than a std. Corolla (- 8.4 cu ft). If we were to compare apples to apples however, an 04 Prius Sedan would be larger by (~ 4.4 cu ft) vs. the Corolla and smaller than the Camry by (~ 10.1 cu ft.). Quite a bit closer to the 03/04 Corolla, isn’t it. Here are the EPA specs for the 01-03 Prius, 03 ECHO, 03/04 Corolla, 04 Prius, and 02-04 Camry from smallest to largest for you to consider:
01 - 03 Prius Sedan:
EPA passenger cargo volume (cu ft): 88.6/Luggage Capacity 11.8 (cu ft) * Total: 100.4 (cu ft)
03 ECHO 4 Dr. Sedan:
EPA passenger cargo volume (cu ft): 88.0/Luggage Capacity 13.6 (cu ft) * Total: 101.6 (cu ft)
03/04 Corolla Sedan:
EPA passenger cargo volume (cu ft): 90.3/Luggage Capacity 13.6 (cu ft) * Total: 103.9 (cu ft)
03/04 Corolla Hatchback (Calculated):
EPA passenger volume (cu ft): 92.3/Luggage Capacity of 15.6 (cu ft) * Total: 107.9 (cu ft)
04 Prius Sedan (Calculated):
EPA passenger cargo volume (cu ft): 94.2/Luggage Capacity 14.1 (cu ft) * Total: 108.3 (cu ft) <-- Whoops, that’s a Compact car!
04 Prius Hatchback:
EPA passenger cargo volume (cu ft): 96.2/Luggage Capacity 16.1 (cu ft) * Total: 112.3 (cu ft)
04 Camry Sedan:
EPA passenger cargo volume (cu ft): 101.7/Luggage Capacity 16.7 (cu ft) * Total: 118.4 (cu ft)
___I estimated the hatch stats by calculating the approximate (cu ft) I would gain if a hatch came standard on the Corolla which would have began at the Sedans rear roof edge to the rear edge of the trunk. This yielded an additional 4 (cu. ft.). I took the same 4 (cu. ft.) away from the 04 Prius Hatchback if it were available as a Sedan. You can follow the Ford Focus Station Wagon discussion a few pages back for the reasoning.
___In any case, a relatively loaded 04 Corolla costs at least $5,350 less (considering the $150.00 incentive available) given $20,500 for a base Prius before taxes which is still a bit much for a compact car IMHO? Is it worth it? If it were a size consideration only (it’s not of course), the 02/03/04 Camry with its much larger and lower costs would be the ideal. I only compared the 04 Prius to all of the above because you keep mentioning it is a midsize car. It is given the addition of the hatch by a total of 2 (cu ft). Why aren’t Compact station wagons listed as midsize cars again?
___For $1,500 - $2,000 over the cost of a Corolla LE, I would definitely consider purchasing the 04 Prius (if it were available today given I like the looks and the tech) but not $5,350 +. The extremely large initial and possibly much larger differential when considering TCO as discussed over the last 5 or more pages is more than many can swallow. It is a great advance and a car I wish I owned but not until the cost works out for me and/or the average Joe.
> John said: But since Prius is a little better in basically every respect (except emissions & efficiency, which is a lot better)
___Performance? 0-60 the 04 Prius still appears to be slower from what you and I have read? Given the 01 – 03’s had dismal performance numbers from 0 to 30, 30 to 60, and 0 to 60, the 04 will hopefully come close to matching an 04 Corolla w/ Auto. The 04 Corolla Manual? Not a chance. I haven’t read about the 04’s handling prowess yet but I hope its better then the 01 – 03’s given their performance but we’ll see soon enough. The 04 Prius Initial and Total Cost of Ownership is still quite a leap above a comparable 03/04 Corolla LE over the short and especially the longer term given the battery replacement unknowns. What basically “every respect” were you speaking of? Emissions, Fuel mileage, and Passenger room but not Initial cost, Total Cost, and Performance? I would love to see a poll as to why the average American purchases one vehicle over another.
Group Number 1: Far less emissions (SULEV vs. ULEV), 20% better fuel efficiency (in my mostly hwy driving case anyway), and 7.5% more passenger room
Group Number 2: Initial Cost at least 25% less, Total Cost upwards of 40% less, increased performance of possibly 5% to 10%?
> John said: Also, many people are still under the impression that because a hybrid gets fantastic MPG that it must be an "economy" car. And that's just plain not true. Toyota's strategy forces people to check their facts.
___Given the 04 Prius has the same purpose as that of an economy car, what is it? I call the Acura EL an economy car even though it is loaded with luxury amenities. I call the Toyota Corolla LE an economy car even after being loaded with everything including Leather and a Sunroof. I also believe most would call the Honda Civic EX an economy car even though it includes power everything and a sunroof as well? Loading up an automobile doesn’t get rid of its nature. You should know this better than anyone given the nature of your driving and options available to you when you purchased your 01?
> John said: In time, there really will be a hybrid Corolla available. The price will be close to what you'd expect it to be.
___John, I don’t really care when they come out with a Corolla Hybrid given they had the chance and skipped it. Would it have been cheaper to throw a Hybrid system in the new Corolla as an option then design a completely new Prius? Leave out the leather, sunroof, and touch screen LCD, and it should be closer to a wash than over $5,000 difference! Give me a few knobs to turn on the A/C with and leave a std. LCD to see what is going on. I believe everyone here knows which platform would have been the least expensive and possibly smarter choice given the Corolla’s redesign, heritage, and history just last year? Even if they were to make the Corolla Hybrid with a hatchback design and call it a midsize, it won’t make a difference unless Initial and TCO drops dramatically. What I hope everyone will see is a Prius, Corolla, Camry, or even an Avalon Hybrid that makes sense economically. Today, not even the latest Prius can make that claim to the detriment of us all.
___Jchan2, I wish it were only $1,000 to $3,595 but it is not. As far as hearing back from the 03 Prius auction winner, I haven’t heard a thing yet?
___Orangelebaron, here is the VIN of that 03: JT2BK12U130080575. If you have a subscription to car fax, please post what you find ...
___Good Luck to you all.
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
I like the Prius04 presentation a lot and I'd like to have a copy of it if I could, but I don't want to copy each page! Do you know is there a way I can download the entire presentation at once?
Since I've ordered One and don't have anything to show to my friends and an I attemp to save the "forest" , I'd like to show it on my notebook computer.
Thanks John,
Antz
Here is the objective evaluation from MotorTrend IntelliChoice.
2003 Best Overall Values of the year - Car:
Compact Car:
*Under $17K -- Honda Civic LX/DX
*Over $17K -- Toyota Prius
Midsize:
*Under $21K -- Honda Accord LX/DX
*Over $21K -- Honda Accord EX
Will be interested to see the 2004 result in next year when Prius competes in the midsize category.
I was talk about the *ONLY* model currently in production. It is a complete redesign, baring not resemblance to the previous. And since the classic model isn't available from the manufacturer anymore, comparisons for a purchase don't serve much purpose.
> The only reason the 04 Prius is considered a Midsize...
How many reasons do you need? Anyway, we already pointed out the generous leg room too. People actually deem that more important that overall volume available.
> Given the 04 Prius has the same purpose as that of
> an economy car, what is it?
Once again, it appears as though I need to point out that EFFICIENCY is *NOT* the primary goal... LOWEST EMISSIONS is, hence the AT-PZEV-2 rating.
> I don’t really care when they come out with a Corolla
> Hybrid given they had the chance and skipped it.
They didn't "skip" it. Long-Term planning includes Corolla. Focusing solely on short-term doesn't accomplish much. The point that seems to be overlooked is that Toyota is selling ever single one of the Prius they make. That extra $$$ for them is helping pave the way towards high-volume production and the lower cost you desire. Patience.
And don't forget that Toyota will eventually have competition. So the variety of efforts they pursue now will payoff later. Focusing only on the economy aspect would limit opportunities.
JOHN
> want to copy each page!
Do you know about the "MHT" (web archive) format? It's an Internet Explorer save option that bundles all webpage content into a single file, which is much more convenient than the regular way of saving. I suggest using that.
Sorry, I don't know of any sources online that offer the original PPT file, but I do know that the web version is less than half the size and it contains more photos.
JOHN
55 mpg, digital display, VSC, Electric Vehicle mode, etc.
There is no use comparing Corolla to Prius-2004.
Why not you tell the Beetle / Mini (2 door, 4 passenger vehicles) customers that for 15K they can get a Corolla / Civic (4 doors, seats 5 passengers).
By the look one can understand that Prius-2004 is an entirely different vehicle which is not be compared with Corolla, Civic, Sentra, Cavalier, Elantra, Focus, etc.
someone just bought a 2003 Prius from Regency Toyota.
He asked about the 2004s, and they claimed that
they'll have one in the showroom in November.
> John said: It is a complete redesign, baring not resemblance to the previous. And since the classic model isn't available from the manufacturer anymore, comparisons for a purchase don't serve much purpose.
___Let me get this straight. Toyota redesigns the Corolla last year (not bearing resemblance to the previous ... ) for how ever many hundreds of millions and makes it slightly bigger. Toyota also redesigns the Prius for quite a few more hundreds of millions to make it **just** big enough to call it a midsize with a change to a hatchback design (sneaky, wasn’t it
>John said: How many reasons do you need? Anyway, we already pointed out the generous leg room too. People actually deem that more important that overall volume available.
___What volume numbers do people deem important then? The 04 Prius is smaller than the Camry in at least 11 other measurements everyone uses including Toyota in their capacity pages. Even the smaller 03/04 Corolla bests the 04 Prius in 3 but those aren’t important either?
> John said: Once again, it appears as though I need to point out that EFFICIENCY is *NOT* the primary goal... LOWEST EMISSIONS is, hence the AT-PZEV-2 rating.
___I believe I mentioned that the 04 Prius was at least an SULEV already? See below for even more.
> John said: They didn't "skip" it. Long-Term planning includes Corolla.
___Apparently they did skip it. Supposedly the 01-03 Prius just broke even last year. The Corolla has been more than breaking even over the last 25 years? Why didn’t Toyota save the development money and install the Hybrid drive train and amenities into a new Corolla hatchback? You know, giving the public a compact with the same emissions, efficiencies, and more importantly, “LOWER COST” as well as a choice for those interested in Hybrid technology in one platform instead of 2? No one can change what Toyota did but it must have been interesting to hear why they wasted the money on 2 compact platforms with the possibility of billions in added development? I haven’t a clue what it costs to create a new car but I know it is at least in the hundreds of millions if not billions. Guess who pays for those 100’s of Millions to Billions? You got it, you and I do.
> John said: The point that seems to be overlooked is that Toyota is selling ever single one of the Prius they make. That extra $$$ for them is helping pave the way towards high-volume production and the lower cost you desire.
___Toyota has been and is continuing to make money on every Corolla they sell vs. barely breaking even on the just the latest Prius’ as has been mentioned time and time again. Those extra dollars used to design and manufacture, as well as advertise the new Prius are wasted given they could have given the public the same vehicle capabilities under a known model and charged a whole lot less for it. Unfortunately, you will be paying that price in the very near future.
> John said: So the variety of efforts they pursue now will payoff later. Focusing only on the economy aspect would limit opportunities.
___I highly doubt placing the Hybrid powertrain in the new Corolla for $1,000 to $2,000 less would be considered limiting the opportunities. What it would do is get a Hybrid in the hands of more Joe Q. Publics when the world needs it most.
___Hi Yerth10, “There is no use comparing Corolla to Prius-2004.” Unfortunately, what do you compare it to? The 01-03 Prius was compared to the new and old Corolla as well as the Civic hundreds of times here in the Edmunds forums. In all actuality it was even smaller than the ECHO. What the Corolla offers is a 40 mpg economy car with initial costs at least $5,000 less than the Prius’. TCO could very well be in favor of the Corolla by even more than the initial $5,000 depending on the Prius’ battery replacement costs which no one seems to know at this point. Many have used and trust the Corolla to go well beyond 200,000 whereas many should be very wary of a Prius with that kind of mileage without a battery pack replacement.
___On to your other questions about costs ... The digital display costs what again? VSC is an option on the 04 Prius according to the Toyota website? How similar is it to the Corolla’s std. EBFD? No yaw sensors on the Corolla, that’s for sure but how much more is there to it? At least it’s std. on the Corolla. I am sure someone will educate us on the important as well as expensive differences.
___And the all to familiar all-electric mode. Look back over the hundreds of posts about stealth mode and how quiet it has been promoted to be. The 01 – 03 Prius *supposedly* had a rather high background noise at 70 mph of ~ 73 dB’s while cruising (averages came from Autosite). The new and old Corolla’s were listed at ~ 70 dB’s for both cruising AND coasting. It doesn’t sound like a motor shut off issue here but more of a Mirror in the Wind or similar problem above 60 mph? This is the minimum many of us drive on the hwy today? I am sure Toyota cured that problem with the 04’s lower Cd? I hope they did anyway given the slightly more powerful engine probably adds an additional dB load? Again, how much quieter is the old and new Prius in the electric modes when the 01 – 03 Prius was that much louder on the hwy at 60 + mph by comparison? Even if the all-electric mode was quieter at some range below 42 mph which is unsustainable, why did the Prius owners have to endure a *possibly* much louder vehicle at 70 for so much more of the time?
___On the 16 (cu ft) of cargo capacity question, see above. It was a Toyota’s mistake not to have saved the added expense of two complete car lines of similar nature that John, yourself (if you decide on an 04), and myself when I finally decide on a Hybrid replacement, will have to pay? $1,000 more? $2,000 more? Maybe even $3,000 more to own the 04 Prius because of a Toyota exec’s decision to keep the similar sized platforms separate? To bad for the entire world I would say
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
Dupie61
You are quite fixated on the here & now, and choose to dismiss long-term goals as a reason for a decision.
That's your choice. It isn't mine, nor is it Toyota's. Read their business objectives for 2010. That will provide some insight on the choices they've made.
JOHN
___Unfortunately, you and I both live in the here and now. Remember the $8,000 - $9,000 hit you are going to take on a new 04 in a few months? I don’t think you can get any closer to the here and now than that?
___What happens in 10 years is irrelevant considering the new Prius could have been made less expensive with the same drive train simply by placing it in the newly designed Corolla last year. This would come at a more reasonable price that more of the public could afford and would have cost Toyota themselves, a lot less! An elitist might say I have a SULEV/PZEV that most cannot afford whereas the realist would say I could have provided the same SULEV/PZEV for an even cheaper price without sacrificing anything for the sake of the environment and many more would have the opportunity to own such a vehicle. It is really sad when you think about it.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
Prius is at break-even or making a profit are so
old, the articles aren't up on their original sites
anymore. 8( yet, somehow the really old ones
when Toyota was losing money are still out there,
how odd.
Making a profit:
Sept. 29, 2002 article: http://www.evworld.com/databases/shownews.cfm?pageid=news290902-0- 4
Sept. 24, 2002 article: http://www.catiaworld.com/lang1/mem/news/arc/_disc2n/00000061.htm
May 30, 2002 article: http://www.planetark.org/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/16184/newsDate- /30-May-2002/story.htm
March 30, 2002 : http://www.acpropulsion.com/CARB/A_Brooks_Testimony/sld007.htm and another article that's unavailable for this board
Dec. 30, 2001 article: http://www.climateark.org/articles/2001/4th/hycarpit.htm
Dec. 21, 2001 article: http://www.ctnpublishing.com/pubs/ETIC/ETIC_2001/ShowTimesDay1.pd- f
set up the gasoline engine has to at least turn
at speeds over 42MPH. (Although, it does not have
to burn any fuel at speeds faster than 42MPH, and
can drive on "electric only" as the engine does
not have to always provide motive force...) (The speed is higher in the 2004s, in the low 50s MPH IIRC.)
The other question about the sound issue is what
tires were being used for the tests? Most people
who have switched away from the (US) OEM Prius
tires have found their rides to be much quieter.
it turn a profit? how many units were sold before
it made a profit?
The answer is zero.
Only Honda comes close. None of the others can even remotely compete in that particular category. Expecting Toyota to develop on an even more aggressive scale is an unrealistic expectation. The pace they've established has worked quite well so far.
JOHN
> the new Prius could have been made less expensive
> with the same drive train simply by placing it in the
> newly designed Corolla last year.
But how we get there is the key. Developers don't just wave a magic-wand to make things happen overnight, it takes time.
The HSD system in the 2004 Prius is modular. They will be able to place it in a Corolla, just like you want.
Why rush?
Working out the issues with salespeople & mechanics is the current focus. Some are still quite uninformed. Quickly selling even more hybrids would make the situation worse, not better. And unfortunately, it would be the consumer who suffers.
Patience.
A lot more must happen after the engineering is complete. Taking smaller steps helps. So that is exactly what they are doing.
JOHN
Thanks,
Barney
ROLLOVER results will be available too. So the tests are finally becoming more informative. Being able to know ACCIDENT AVOIDANCE attributes is just as important as what happens when you crash... in fact, those that prefer not to crash in the first place deem it even more important.
JOHN
Since a Prius weighs 400 pounds less, that means when you nail that Excursion on the highway then you'd be a lot worse than that Camry LE driver who nailed another Excursion right down the road. Also, the Prius seems like a taller vehicle so that means the bumper on an Excursion may not override your bumper as much as a Excursion might override a Camry LE's bumper or a Corolla's bumper. handling plays an important part in avoiding an accident- we'll wait for Consumer reports to pump out a report on the new Prius. Also, that dork driving an Excursion shouldn't be driving one anyways. he's tooo wasteful. if you ever do nail a Excursion driver, tell them to buy a Prius as a replacement- see how they react!!!!! Also, if you nailed that Sienna you'd be a lot safer too. Watch who you speed around. Observe. Be careful and most of all.....
tell that Excursion driver to be environmentally responsible!!!! Come on America, start conserving like our buddies the British. Throw away your tahoes, Expeditions, Excursions, Escalades and Durangos and start being responsible! Buy a Prius or a smaller car that actually fits what you do everyday!!!!!!!
http://votearianna.com/movie/
What do you think?
You CAN'T really compare the Corolla to the Prius if you look at the level of equipment you get in a fully optioned Prius. I ordered mine with option 9 and will have all the goodies. I don't CARE if it is cheaper to own a Corolla. I even considered the Focus ZX3 with the new Mazda made 2.3 engine which gets VERY good mileage AND I can get stability control. Also the Focus now has a 100,000 powertrain warranty. I still came back to the Prius because NONE of the vehicles I cross shopped can't turn themselves OFF in traffic. That feature is something everyone should have on their mind. I drive 20 miles to work on Long Island and it can take over an hour at times. I LOVE the fact that I am NOT emitting polution while I am sitting in traffic. Here are some other little features I like:
Never inserting a key (I know...)
Steering wheel controls for A/C
Bluetooth
Navigation System
CVT Drivetrain
Hatchback
I am not a tree hugger by any stretch of the imagination but I wanted to be prepared when gas prices rise as well. We live in volatile times and no one is questioning the recent spike in gas prices after the blackout. Supposedly the price increase was related to refinery shutdowns and a gas main break in Arizona. Interesting how these events were IMMEDIATELY felt at the pump!!! I know I am off topic a bit but I want to be prepared when gas goes to $4.00 a gallon.
Oh... regarding the Corolla's gas mileage. I read Edmund's test and they averaged 31 on their car. I can't see how that car can get over 40 mpg as some have stated. Granted with a manual transmission and going 55-60 you can get it, but not in my neck of the woods!!!
Also, you're moving from a lowest quality manufacturer to the highest quality manufacturer, for a lot cheaper.
Well, I really think you're sort of preaching to the choir on this board.
Anyway, it would be just swell if we could continue to get some assistance in this area from the federal government. In particular, this year is the last (as far as I know) for the full $2000 hybrid tax deduction. Kind of a rotten deal if you order a Prius today but don't take delivery (or otherwise pay in full) until next year.
John, Dupie, Djasonw and all those who ordered Prius-2004
http://www.japantimes.com/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?nb20030919a7.htm
Toyota plans to continue operating its plant during holidays after the Prius goes on sale in the U.S. next month.
Wayne : I think you added 1 extra '0'.
A 2001 Prius gets 14 K today, and that too because this is the last year for that model.
No Toyota vehicle loses that much in few months.
May be Hummer will lose that much.
By the way, most of the Americans drive only 15,000 miles or less in a year. If you drive 40,000 miles, then you are an exception.
That is why warranty is offered as
12 months / 12,000 miles
24 months / 24,000 miles
36 months / 36,000 miles
etc.
Also, just wanted to thank djasonw for the inspiring post about the value of this car. I commute in to Manhattan often twice a day and your points are well taken.
I just want to see the car first!
___From the Mrvadeboncoeur, links dated Dec. 30, 2001.
Quote: “Toyota's Dave Hermance, an environmental engineer who works with the automaker's hybrids, acknowledged that despite the early successes, there are "some issues with hybrids" -- such as how each Toyota Prius packs $3,500 worth of technology onto the price tag that the comparably equipped Corolla doesn't. "That's a premium on each car," he said.”
___This is the issue I have been speaking of and the one that will have the most effect on America as a whole ... If the above is true, it looks like $3,500 worth of technology for the Hybrid drive train. I am sure it’s even cheaper now. With Toyota engineers saying the above, what I see was the ability for Toyota to sell the newly designed Corolla CE/S/LE w/ the same Hybrid tech as that in the new 04 Prius and still be profitable at $18,000 or less w/ the same features! Instead, Toyota develops a completely new Prius platform and decides to sell it for $20,500 +? I am going to guess it cost Toyota a billion dollars to develop the new Prius platform, not including the Hybrid technology. To get the $2,500/Prius vehicle sold back just to pay for the platform, Toyota has to sell 400,000 Prius’. That is a lot of Prius’ in comparison to the total amount of Prius’ Toyota has sold over the last 6 years! What was that, 150,000 or so? Why didn’t Toyota just place the Hybrid tech in the recently redesigned Corolla platform for $2,500 less and sell them to not just those that can afford a $20,500 compact but those that can afford an $18,000 one as well? That places more efficient and Green cars in American hands and does so with Toyota possibly taking more money to the bank for future development as well? At $18,000, you are a lot closer to break even than you are at $20,500 +.
___You have also been talking emissions. Here is what I would like you to do. Go ask your parents what the difference between PZEV, SULEV, ULEV II, ULEV, and LEV are? Why not ask your neighbor(s), co-worker(s), significant other, or even your local car salesman? You may as well ask them what there current car is rated for? Most wouldn’t have a clue what the differences are yet you seem to place it very high on someone’s list of needs in a new car purchase. What most would place on their wants and needs list is an automobile that doesn’t cost an arm and a leg (it’s affordable), that it is well suited for the task at hand, and who wouldn’t want better mileage. When you quote PZEV getting over 45 mpg’s, again, ask your parents what PZEV means to them. If it really means something to you, why aren’t you wondering why Toyota didn’t try and place the PZEV’s in more people’s hands at $18,000 instead of fewer at $20,500 +? Interesting question given the costs of the Prius platform I would assume?
___As for your waving the magic wand comment, Toyota just spent 100’s of millions on the Corolla redesign. Why would they have to make anything happen overnight? They had the money to do the redesign and they did it. Why didn’t they just add the Hybrid drive train to the list of options? Far less costly then to create a new platform like they did with the 04 Prius, far less risk given the proven Corolla platform, and more Clean technology in the hands of that many more end users because of what should have been affordable in the first place for the betterment of all. If mechanics and salesman need to be trained, wouldn’t it have been easier to train them on the Corolla with the optional Hybrid power train instead of the new Corolla and the new Prius? Again, saving money for the betterment of all including Toyota.
___Mrvadeboncoeur, as far as what tires were used and the noise the older Prius’ produced at speed, I have to believe they were the same tires that came std. on the 01 – 03 Prius’ being tested? I have never heard of a test drive from the likes of MT, C&D, Autoweek, or whoever where they would purposely swap out the OEM’s tires for a different tire to add performance, handling, or for noise reduction. That wouldn’t make sense? As for when the Corolla turned a profit, I haven’t a clue nor do I care. They are making a profit today and I would suspect them to continue into the near future?
___Djasonw, when you option out an 04 Prius, you have a compact car w/ a hatch that costs around $25,000 not including taxes! You can add any of the available options to an Echo, a Corolla, a Camry, an Avalon, or any of Toyota’s truck lines if Toyota allowed it as well. If you want a compact that cost $25,000, so be it. I just hope you also remember what kind of residual you may have at trade in time because of a looming battery replacement. That residual may be even worse for those that load up their Prius’ vs. the std. $20,500 outlay. As for turning itself on and off in traffic, ask your parents, friends, co-workers, or whoever what is on their mind in regards to a new vehicle vs. what should be on their minds (like PZEV) and ask them what they are willing to pay for it? Some might just think turning off at the light is nuts although the well versed know otherwise.
___As for the features you love, I love them too. The std. 04 Prius uses the key fob in a slot instead of the Key itself? Seems a bit different but the available keyless option is really thinking out side the box and I love it. The only problem is that you have to purchase a $4,000 + option package to get it. My HP iPAQ has bluetooth and it’s the darndest NAVI you have ever could imagine with the latest Navtech maps from May of this year via Mapopolis. CVT ... Yes, very nice. It is supposedly less expensive and lighter weight than a manual or Auto plus its smoother and more efficient! A hatchback? I had one in a stripped down 83 Chevy Chevette econobox 20 years ago
___As far as the 03 Corolla w/ manual’s gas mileage, I wouldn’t know anything about that since I receive > 40 mpg from an 03 LE w/ Auto at > 60 mph w/ A/C running! I seem to remember many Prius reviewers getting in the mid 30’s (or was it low 40’s?) when ever it was reviewed. Again, it’s TCO and this is where the Prius stumbles. Unfortunately, many will not know about that until many years down the road ... At least it looks great and has a tremendous drive train.
___Yerth10, the $8,000 to $9,000 hit John is about to take is on his 01 when he trades it in for the 04. He hopes to receive $13,000 for it but paid $20,500 + tax minus the government deduction (not credit) for the 01 when it was new. Just in case you didn’t know, Edmunds and KBB say an 01 Toyota Prius including cruise in good condition w/ 60,000 miles should be priced as follows:
Edmunds: Trade in Value: $10,110 Private Party: $11,932 Retail: $13,631
KB Book: Trade In Value: $10,160 Private Party: $11,505 Retail: $13,840
Here is the finish ...
___Here is an 01 w/ just 4,000 miles on it at a Volvo dealership just 11 miles away from me: http://www.cars.com/search/used/cc/standard/results/single/ld/detail.jhtml?paId=131805550&aff=national&src=&cid=null.
Did you see the price they are asking? $13,995 w/ just 4000 miles! I saw it on the lot when I was looking for one and it is clean. How much do you want to bet we could pick it up tomorrow for $11,500 - $12,000 from that dealer? Do you now understand why I mentioned John is about to receive an $8,000 to $9,000 hit or more in the next month or two? That is a lot of dollars to lose in 3 years and ~ 60,000 miles for a car smaller than an Echo with ~ 20% better gas mileage and lower emissions than an 01 Corolla ...
___Jchan2, remember that $2,000 is a deduction, not a credit. It’s only worth your tax rate X $2,000.
___As always, I love the 04 Prius for many reasons but the economics don’t work out just yet. Fortunately for Toyota, many won’t consider the economics. Anyone with a cutoff of $20K, won’t be purchasing one although they could have purchased an $18,000 version and Toyota would have possibly made just as much profit if not more given the huge amount of Prius’ they will have to sell to pay for the new platforms design ...
___Good Luck to you all.
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
In fact, the feeling of driving one of these thing is better than driving a ES. Because now you can ask the guy who owns a S500 or M3, do you have one of these engine? Dude!
How rapidly do technology costs fall?
The answer is, so fast that the quote is no longer accurate.
> it looks like $3,500 worth of technology for the
> Hybrid drive train. I am sure it’s even cheaper now.
Where did it say "drive train" only?
That technology actually includes all the computer components and the Multi-Display too.
So the song I've been singing of "now less than $3,000" is quite realistic now, especially if you eliminate the Multi-Display.
> I am going to guess it cost Toyota a billion dollars to develop
> the new Prius platform, not including the Hybrid technology.
It doesn't cost that much anymore. The latest & greatest CAD systems allow amazing new designs to be tested at much, much lower costs. Also, how do you know that the budget quotes for the classic Prius didn't also include this development step? Remember, the Japanese culture is based on long-term effort, quite different from the mindset on this side of the world.
> To get the $2,500/Prius vehicle sold back just to pay
> for the platform, Toyota has to sell 400,000 Prius’.
That's why the system is *MODULAR*, which allows it to be installed in other vehicles. And guess what. You'll find it in many other hybrid vehicles starting next year. So the volume goal, which is actually 300,000 units, can be achieved.
> Why didn’t Toyota just place the Hybrid tech in the
> recently redesigned Corolla platform
They will. Patience.
Regardless of how you feel, the reality is that Toyota is progressing much faster than all of the rest of the competition... COMBINED! So the rate of progress is actually rather swift.
> When you quote PZEV getting over 45 mpg’s, again, ask
> your parents what PZEV means to them.
The oldest generation will typically ask one of their children for help before making such a significant purchase decision, too much money is at stake to not ask. They are well aware of the fact that the label indicating "cleanest" is something they aren't familiar with.
The 20-something generation will find the answer within seconds. Label information provides very little challenge. They just look it up on the internet or ask a friend. They are also far more interested in what the impact of our current actions will have on the future than the oldest generation.
Asking someone who just recently became a father or mother how important the quality of the air is and how important reducing our dependence on oil is will yield a potent response. THEY ARE VERY CONCERNED!
> Corolla redesign
You are assuming that the redesign isn't capable of supporting a hybrid drive train, why?
How do you know that the weight requirements and connecting mounts aren't ALREADY designed to do exactly that?
Waiting until that newly redesigned model is already common makes a whole lot more sense than introducing it immediately; otherwise, people would assume it was designed to be a hybrid rather than a traditional vehicle adapted to be one afterward. Make note of how well that worked for Honda. The concept is ALREADY established. Waiting so the same thing could be done makes a lot of sense.
> you have a compact car w/ a hatch
All of the reviews compliment about how much more spacious the interior of the new Prius is. Continuing to insist that the car is still a "compact" is totally inappropriate. It is bigger. Face the facts.
> available keyless option is really thinking out side
> the box and I love it. The only problem is that you
> have to purchase a $4,000 + option package to get it.
WRONG!
The "AI" package (Rear Wiper, Anti-Theft system, Homelink, Electrochromic Rearview Mirror, Smart-Entry, Smart-Start) is only $1,100. And the "BI" package (Rear Wiper, Driver & Passenger & Side Airbags with Curtains, Smart-Entry, Smart-Start) is only $1,280.
> it’s TCO and this is where the Prius stumbles
You are basing your "facts" on a brief test-drive a reporter took. That's not the best of ideas. Their data is extremely limited.
Ask actual owners what their real-world data is after having driven for a couple of years, that is far more useful information. You'll find that the midpoint for efficiency is around 45 MPG, which is quite a bit higher than what a reporter unfamiliar with the vehicle got.
> the $8,000 to $9,000 hit John is about to take is on
> his 01 when he trades it in for the 04.
First, you can't consider the sale of a first year model of a brand new type of car "typical". Later as people become familiar with what the hybrid has to offer, the value will become more competitive so I'd get a higher return on my investment.
Second, my Prius is in excellent condition. Not just good. And the dealer agrees.
Third, you are forgetting that I don't have to pay taxes on the trade-in value for my old Prius when purchasing the new one. That means I will immediately save an additional $800.
> but the economics don’t work out just yet.
You're preaching to the wrong crowd. Americans love to spend money on vehicles that are not economical. Just take a close look at a parking lot for your local grocery store sometime. Many of the vehicles there cost far more than the person actually needed to spend.
JOHN
It's something that makes Prius even more appealing (so you can imagine the type of response that will get when you point it out to those that don't support the hybrid technology).
A grim reality that more and more people have to face nowadays is the fact that their high-mileage vehicle, which still runs great, does not pass the emissions test. They end up having to spend hundreds of dollars unexpectly to have the vehicle tuned to be cleaner.
Since the primary purpose of the HSD (Hybrid Synergy Drive) in Prius is to reduce emissions as much as possible, that is the least of concerns you'll have to deal with later in its life. Traditional vehicles can't claim that.
So the next time someone shows you a TOC estimate, ask them where the emission expenses are for the traditional vehicle they are comparing to. If they are missing, the value listed should not be considered complete.
Prius keeps getting better and better the more you learn about it. Sweet!
JOHN
and the owner did not like it one bit. She said that you have to drive the car for at least 30 min. every two weeks, or it voids the warranty. Is that true?