If you are deadset on a Fit .... NOW .... then you will pony up and they know it.
Since they are dinking you for MSRP at this point I would work the internet sales of others in your area - go out 100 miles from your house and ask every honda dealer - I'd drive 100 miles, 200 round trip, for $600 (net after sales tax) any day of the week.
I'd drive 100 miles, 200 round trip, for $600 (net after sales tax) any day of the week.
I don't know if I would go that far, especially if there was set deal. I wouldn't drive that far (2.5 to 3.5 hours depending on circumstances) for the possibility of saving a few hundred bucks.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
If you are deadset on a Fit .... NOW .... then you will pony up and they know it.
I agree. And the Fit is due for replacement next year (it's new to the US, but an old design in other markets where it is sold as a Honda Jazz), so you can expect to lose a fair bit of resale value if you buy for sticker now, and sell it 2-3 years from now after the new model has been out for awhile.
Have you considered other cars? I would compare some of the other smaller cars on the market, such as the Mazda 3, which offers a very good driving experience in a compact package, and offers a lot more negotiation room.
Why only $35? Most doc. fees in my area are anywhere from $199 to $489.
Cause somebody started it and the buyers haven't argued about it. Soooo unless you account for the Doc Fee in your negotiation you're going to pay it, whatever it is. I thought you knew that or was that a rhetorical question to stir up the troops here. I wouldn't put it past you.
FWIW, there is a $55 dollar Doc Fee in my area but I account for this in my price when I buy and I'm sure a lot of people do. After all, if 'jmonroe' can do it, how hard can it be?
You know it's not nice to antagonize the troops with this.
Hope this is the last time we hear this from you.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
jipster........doc fees here in California are set by law at $45. If CA dealers can handle docs for that amount, why would it take $489 to do the same thing elsewhere. It's just one more way to extract a few more bucks out of a buyer, and it's probably easier to do it if you make it sound like it's an "official" charge. Just say no.
That just proves most car buyers are simple-minded enough they will pay it thinking they have to do so. It's another way to add profit just like the F&I shop does. Buyers usually won't revolt and walk.
That's why you need to negotiate out-the-door price from the beginning. Just had a friend buy a popular, lower-priced car. She didn't want to shop price with dealer 35 miles away. She just went in and bought the car. She won't even discuss what addons they reamed her for. I had been on their lot and the line she was shopping had $500 addons: mudflaps, wax, etc. Next line up had $1000 addons. I'll bet they got her with doc fees also. Ironically her daughter manages healthcare for a union with headquarters 1/4 mi from the dealer; she's an excellent negotiator. Probably would have come home with the salesman's socks. But mother didn't want her daughter to help negotiate. She just gets nervous and wants to get it over with; not a good way to do a car purchase.
Isell....popular car, tight market, pre-sold units. Yeah, I can see where MSRP will probably rule the day. Market conditions prevail. Still, the only thing the dealer can say is "no" when making an offer.
If the Fit is the car "suze" wants, then that's the one she should focus on. But, if the price is giving her heartache, it might be worth expanding the search for other, competing models.
By all means, buy the car you want and can afford, though. If it's the Fit, go for it.
or was that a rhetorical question to stir up the troops
The Jipster stir up the troops??? Surely you jest?
But, actually I was thinking along the line of using a low doc. fee for advertising purposes. Since Isell mentioned their low doc. fee, I assumed it was not set low, by law, as in other states.
Some dealerships in my area advertise "NO OUTRAGEOUS FEES OR ADD ONS". But, that usually means the $199 doc fee and the worthless Mop N Glo at 50% off.
On my Buick Regal, the Stealership had a $329 doc. fee written into all of their contracts. So, I just made an out the door offer minus the doc. fee and it was no problem.
On our Mazda MPV, I think I threw in about $100 to account for all their fees. But, of course, I light my cigars with $100 bills... so no bigee on that.
Well, here's an update of where I am....all the dealers I've talked to so far are offering the Fit at MSRP which is $15,245. The lowest offer I've had is MSRP with a $399 Doc. fee, no add-ons.
Which basically means to me, I'm giving the dealer a $399 profit. But, again, since the car is in demand, that's probably the best I'm going to get.
Also, called my credit union and I can get a 5.25% loan for the vehicle. That's the best I've found so far.
FWIW, there is only about $800 worth of markup in that vehicle. I think that's a minimal amount of profit.
The documentation fee is the cost of doing business with the dealership. It does not count toward salesman commission. We don't make money on that. It goes straight to boss man's retirement fund. Yup. My dealership actually even charges the salesmen the doc fee when they purchase a vehicle. :mad:
Due to availability, the deal you are putting together for yourself is a good one. If they aren't charging mop and glop fees, then you're already one step ahead. Your APR is a very competitive rate as well.
Be happy with your research and start enjoying the new vehicle. I think you've done very well. I ask you as kindly as I can: Please don't turn your buying experience into a saga. Unless there is a trade involved, I think you have all the information necessary to purchase your next vehicle fairly.
-Moo
P.S. My dealership sells a lot of volume. We sell vehicles for prices sometimes that wouldn't make any sense at a small dealership. Every Fit we sell goes for MSRP, plus an appearance package of $695 and a $499 documentation fee. NO discounts. I think your deal is a very good one.
Just found this site and it has so much useful information my head is spinning! I am trying to see if anyone knows how to find dealer invoice pricing for Canadians. I have subscribed to carcostcanada.com and have generated a report for the vehicle I am looking for ('07 Santa Fe 3.3L AWD), but unless I'm mistaken the dealer cost figure it produces is not the actual dealer invoice...correct?
Just remember that no deal is set until its on the paperwork that you will be signing. I had things change at the last minute that didn't benefit me to many times.
As for Doc fees thats for a service that is most likely costing the dealer $10-15 to do for you.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Hi doubleh, Depends on which vehicle. We have several Canadian participants who might be able to help you with specific cars. If you're looking at the Santa Fe, you'll want to visit our Santa Fe Pricing discussion and ask your question. If there are "in-the-know" Canadians around, they will be able to help you with your question.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
On my Buick Regal, the Stealership had a $329 doc. fee written into all of their contracts. So, I just made an out the door offer minus the doc. fee and it was no problem.
On our Mazda MPV, I think I threw in about $100 to account for all their fees.
See, so you do know how to do it. Just as I thought, an agitator.
But, of course, I light my cigars with $100 bills... so no bigee on that.
Yeah, isn’t it great to be able to do that? Of course since you smoke more that me, it must be even greater.
Now no more agitating, OK?
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Well, here's an update of where I am....all the dealers I've talked to so far are offering the Fit at MSRP which is $15,245. The lowest offer I've had is MSRP with a $399 Doc. fee, no add-ons.
Which basically means to me, I'm giving the dealer a $399 profit. But, again, since the car is in demand, that's probably the best I'm going to get.
You’ll have to decide which is more important, $399 and getting what you want right now or waiting to see if you can buy for less than MSRP when the car isn’t so hot. You’re the only one that can make this call.
Hold on, just got an idea. I know I go off when I see/hear Doc Fee and maybe you do too. If you have to buy right now do this:
So you don’t see a Doc Fee on the bill of sale, add $399 to the $15,245 for a total of $15,644 (same bottom line price, right?) but be sure you tell them NOT to show a Doc Fee as a separate line item on the bill of sale. That way your signature can never be associated with paying a Doc Fee.
Am I clever or what?
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Simple answer is it's a real money maker for the dealership just for the right to sell you a car. Your gripe is not with the sales person because they don't get any of it. All of this fee (pure profit) goes to the owner of the dealership. Nice, ain't it, not to allow the sales person to make some money from this.
Just another reason why you should be wary of car dealers, they will even take advantage of there own employees.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
they will even take advantage of their own employees.
Yeah, that's something that's always "agitated" me. The dealership will bend over backwards to lower the sale price of their car, in order to keep the full price of doc. fees intact. Thereby lowering the commission of the poor old salesperson, while padding their already fat wallets.
When buying my Buick Regal several years ago, I overheard the sales manager telling my salesman that if the salesman ran a Carfax on the car I was thinking about buying, the cost of the Carfax report would be coming out of his commission. Now that's pretty low. Kinda makes me want to go out and pay MSRP on my next vehicle.
...the cost of the Carfax report would be coming out of his commission. Now that's pretty low. Kinda makes me want to go out and pay MSRP on my next vehicle.
That's low alright but do you really want to go this far?
They will love ya a lot though.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
The doc fee is the fees the dealer charges you to document the vehicle things such as tags, title and such. Basically its to cover the cost of doing the paperwork with the state.
Does it really cost $399 to do that? no
Is it all profit to the dealer? no the dealer still has costs associated with it. This process just doesn't magically happen, there is someone who processes that paperwork that the dealership has to pay. The actual cost to the dealer most likely runs between $10 - $20.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
A reporter with a national newspaper is hoping to talk with consumers who have over 200,000 miles on their vehicles and are waiting to purchase a new car because of the uncertain economy and housing market slowdown. Please reply to ctalati@edmunds.com no later than Wednesday, November 22, 2006 with your daytime contact info.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
And of course, the dealer's cost depends on what the fees are in your state/municipality.
The best way to avoid aggravation associated with seeing various fees and add-ons on the final paperwork is to negotiate an out-the-door price. Decide exactly how much you are willing to pay for the vehicle. Give the dealership your offer, and state that it's an out-the-door offer - if the bottom-line price on the paperwork is not the OTD price you agreed on, tell them you're leaving.
That way, you don't care one bit how they split it up. If they want to charge you $1 for the vehicle and $15,500 for the doc fees, it's not your problem.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
If you could just leave now and drive around that block, that would be helpful
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
That's low alright but do you really want to go this far?
Nahhhh. I was just joshing about paying MSRP. I ain't that crazy. :confuse:
I do like the OTD method of car buying though. The only problem with it though is when the dealership splits it the way the wants, he'll leave a smaller piece of pie for the salesman. I would much rather see the salesmen get a little bit more than the Stealership.
Can we please stay away from terms like "stealership?" Even though we know that some deserve the term, some don't, and generalized namecalling doesn't really advance the conversation or knowledge base. Thanks.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
Well, here's an update of where I am....all the dealers I've talked to so far are offering the Fit at MSRP which is $15,245. The lowest offer I've had is MSRP with a $399 Doc. fee, no add-ons.
Which basically means to me, I'm giving the dealer a $399 profit. But, again, since the car is in demand, that's probably the best I'm going to get.
No, the dealer is grossing a whole lot more than $399. To estimate that, add together at least these amounts --
-The holdback amount (in Honda's case, 3% of the base MSRP) -The difference between invoice and whatever price that you are paying -Any add-ons -The doc fees -Any incentives paid by Honda to the dealership (although there probably aren't any on a Fit)
And that doesn't include whatever profit is being made on your trade-in, and any profits that the dealership earns if you finance the purchase through them.
There are a lot more opportunities for profit flying around this transaction aside from a doc fee, the dealership may be making thousands of dollars on this sale.
But unfortunately, if you absolutely have to have an extremely popular car, then this is one of those situations where you don't have much wiggle room. Just be sure that you don't also give up too much on the trade in, financing and other components of the deal.
Yeah, I know that and plenty of others do, but just keep in mind that a lot of newbies who don't get the jipster's style read this forum and might take offense. Thanks!
Remember... we are watched by a LOT more members than those who post.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
Hmmm, I need to contact an acquaintance with his 1989 Camry that has either 460,000 or 480,000 miles on the odometer. :shades: I will NOT keep my 2006 Sienna LE long enough to get that many miles as I don't like it overall as well as the 2002 T&C LX I had before buying the Sienna.
I disagree as it tends to paint everyone the same. In his usage we was referring to any dealership that way. Plus name calling really tells more about the person doing the name calling than anything else.
If you have a legitimate beef with a dealership that can and should be expressed in a civil tone with no name calling.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I am not overly thrilled with my 2006 Sienna LE after owning a 2002 Chrysler T&C LX. I went to a Toyota/Dodge dealership to trade it off and get a new GC SXT. The facility said my Sienna LE was worth $ 19,000 early this spring. In late August, I went to a DaimlerChrysler dealership that does NOT carry Toyota and was told my Sienna LE was worth $ 21,000 on a trade and they offered to sell the 2006 GC SXT at a lower price than the "Stealership" (and DC dealership has lower Doc Fees). I would have traded that day if the GC SXT had not had too many options that neither my wife nor I want. :shades: Apparently the Toyota dealer felt the Sienna depreciates faster than the DaimlerChrysler dealer. :shades:
And let's face it, the honest car dealers are the first to point fingers at the slimy ones. It sure doesn't help their reputation to have the cheaters out there.
You can call a spade a spade; all I'm asking that we avoid is putting everyone in the same pot (or cesspool, as the case may be).
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
kirstie....I like the OTD (out the door) negotiations, too.
To define that for those who don't know, OTD includes....
--the price you're paying for the car --Tax, Title, License --any other fees that show up either during time of negotiations, or in the finance office (including "doc" fees)
In short, it's the amount that you pay for the car, all inclusive (or, if you're paying cash, the amount you'll be writing the check for...or, if no trades or down payments involved, the amount you'll be financing).
Key here is to add in your taxes, license, title fees into the offer and make certain the dealership knows you're "all in" with your offer. No other $$$ can be added to it.
Of course, if you're financing, the interest goes to the lending institution.
Be careful here, too. If the dealer is arranging financing, they may add points to the interest rate as a "fee" for their services to do so. Best to have financing set up with your bank/credit union BEFORE you walk into the dealership.
You said it all. That is EXACTLY what you have to do to get the best price and avoid all the fees. Stay out of the F&I office, that is what is called, the back end sales and a real mine field.
Arrange your financing outside the dealer. They can legally mark up your load in many states. I order a car to get just what I want and I never finance at the dealer. I have used the OTD price method several times and it worked well and was very fast.
You have to allow a decent profit for the dealer. This can depend on the car and time of year as well as other factors. Get the Consumers Report auto price report for $14.00. It has everything you will need including rebates and incentives.
My last saleman told me that 80% of the people don't know what they are doing. I think a lot of the other 20% don't know much either. The truth is out there, just go find it.
You can a whole lot of money in your life time and have a lot fewer problems if you are an informed consumer.
For comparison of the deals buyers obtained, I believe that it is important to list the price which includes the base price (identifying options if applicable), dealer prep fees, documentation fees, add-ons and any other fees. In other words, exclude the TT&L costs when listing the price paid/offered. This method enables viewers in different taxing locales to compare apples to apples more easily. I've never tried the OTD offer method when buying a vehicle, but I might try it on my next purchase. I've always used the cost excluding TT&L in obtaining bids from competing dealers over the internet, figuring that I could add the TT&L costs myself to get to my OTD total. Take care. Ralph
One might be quoting you for new plates and reg and the other for a transfer.
We rountinely guess a little high on reg fees since we sell cars to so many out of state clients. The office just sends the customer a check for the amount we overcharge when they process the deal. Only takes a week or so.
Comments
Since they are dinking you for MSRP at this point I would work the internet sales of others in your area - go out 100 miles from your house and ask every honda dealer - I'd drive 100 miles, 200 round trip, for $600 (net after sales tax) any day of the week.
I don't know if I would go that far, especially if there was set deal. I wouldn't drive that far (2.5 to 3.5 hours depending on circumstances) for the possibility of saving a few hundred bucks.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I agree. And the Fit is due for replacement next year (it's new to the US, but an old design in other markets where it is sold as a Honda Jazz), so you can expect to lose a fair bit of resale value if you buy for sticker now, and sell it 2-3 years from now after the new model has been out for awhile.
Have you considered other cars? I would compare some of the other smaller cars on the market, such as the Mazda 3, which offers a very good driving experience in a compact package, and offers a lot more negotiation room.
People ALWAYS tell us they are looking at other cars too...
Problem is, there are no Fits out there, in my area they are alwaus pre sold before they arrive.
That price for mud guards is nuts and the same applies to the doc fee. We charge 35.00.
Still, that's probably what it's going to take to buy that Fit.
Why only $35? Most doc. fees in my area are anywhere from $199 to $489.
Cause somebody started it and the buyers haven't argued about it. Soooo unless you account for the Doc Fee in your negotiation you're going to pay it, whatever it is. I thought you knew that or was that a rhetorical question to stir up the troops here. I wouldn't put it past you.
FWIW, there is a $55 dollar Doc Fee in my area but I account for this in my price when I buy and I'm sure a lot of people do. After all, if 'jmonroe' can do it, how hard can it be?
You know it's not nice to antagonize the troops with this.
Hope this is the last time we hear this from you.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
That just proves most car buyers are simple-minded enough they will pay it thinking they have to do so. It's another way to add profit just like the F&I shop does. Buyers usually won't revolt and walk.
That's why you need to negotiate out-the-door price from the beginning. Just had a friend buy a popular, lower-priced car. She didn't want to shop price with dealer 35 miles away. She just went in and bought the car. She won't even discuss what addons they reamed her for. I had been on their lot and the line she was shopping had $500 addons: mudflaps, wax, etc. Next line up had $1000 addons. I'll bet they got her with doc fees also. Ironically her daughter manages healthcare for a union with headquarters 1/4 mi from the dealer; she's an excellent negotiator. Probably would have come home with the salesman's socks. But mother didn't want her daughter to help negotiate. She just gets nervous and wants to get it over with; not a good way to do a car purchase.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
If the Fit is the car "suze" wants, then that's the one she should focus on. But, if the price is giving her heartache, it might be worth expanding the search for other, competing models.
By all means, buy the car you want and can afford, though. If it's the Fit, go for it.
The Jipster stir up the troops??? Surely you jest?
But, actually I was thinking along the line of using a low doc. fee for advertising purposes. Since Isell mentioned their low doc. fee, I assumed it was not set low, by law, as in other states.
Some dealerships in my area advertise "NO OUTRAGEOUS FEES OR ADD ONS". But, that usually means the $199 doc fee and the worthless Mop N Glo at 50% off.
On my Buick Regal, the Stealership had a $329 doc. fee written into all of their contracts. So, I just made an out the door offer minus the doc. fee and it was no problem.
On our Mazda MPV, I think I threw in about $100 to account for all their fees. But, of course, I light my cigars with $100 bills... so no bigee on that.
Which basically means to me, I'm giving the dealer a $399 profit. But, again, since the car is in demand, that's probably the best I'm going to get.
Also, called my credit union and I can get a 5.25% loan for the vehicle. That's the best I've found so far.
And the saga continues.....
FWIW, there is only about $800 worth of markup in that vehicle. I think that's a minimal amount of profit.
The documentation fee is the cost of doing business with the dealership. It does not count toward salesman commission. We don't make money on that. It goes straight to boss man's retirement fund. Yup. My dealership actually even charges the salesmen the doc fee when they purchase a vehicle. :mad:
Due to availability, the deal you are putting together for yourself is a good one. If they aren't charging mop and glop fees, then you're already one step ahead. Your APR is a very competitive rate as well.
Be happy with your research and start enjoying the new vehicle. I think you've done very well. I ask you as kindly as I can: Please don't turn your buying experience into a saga. Unless there is a trade involved, I think you have all the information necessary to purchase your next vehicle fairly.
-Moo
P.S. My dealership sells a lot of volume. We sell vehicles for prices sometimes that wouldn't make any sense at a small dealership. Every Fit we sell goes for MSRP, plus an appearance package of $695 and a $499 documentation fee. NO discounts. I think your deal is a very good one.
According to the dealer, no mop n glo fees.
The saga part was just a joke. Actually, it's been kinda fun researching the info. and shopping around.
It's just not a done deal yet.
Just found this site and it has so much useful information my head is spinning! I am trying to see if anyone knows how to find dealer invoice pricing for Canadians. I have subscribed to carcostcanada.com and have generated a report for the vehicle I am looking for ('07 Santa Fe 3.3L AWD), but unless I'm mistaken the dealer cost figure it produces is not the actual dealer invoice...correct?
Thanks!
Just remember that no deal is set until its on the paperwork that you will be signing. I had things change at the last minute that didn't benefit me to many times.
As for Doc fees thats for a service that is most likely costing the dealer $10-15 to do for you.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Depends on which vehicle. We have several Canadian participants who might be able to help you with specific cars. If you're looking at the Santa Fe, you'll want to visit our Santa Fe Pricing discussion and ask your question. If there are "in-the-know" Canadians around, they will be able to help you with your question.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
Why do you think that?
On our Mazda MPV, I think I threw in about $100 to account for all their fees.
See, so you do know how to do it. Just as I thought, an agitator.
But, of course, I light my cigars with $100 bills... so no bigee on that.
Yeah, isn’t it great to be able to do that? Of course since you smoke more that me, it must be even greater.
Now no more agitating, OK?
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Which basically means to me, I'm giving the dealer a $399 profit. But, again, since the car is in demand, that's probably the best I'm going to get.
You’ll have to decide which is more important, $399 and getting what you want right now or waiting to see if you can buy for less than MSRP when the car isn’t so hot. You’re the only one that can make this call.
Hold on, just got an idea. I know I go off when I see/hear Doc Fee and maybe you do too. If you have to buy right now do this:
So you don’t see a Doc Fee on the bill of sale, add $399 to the $15,245 for a total of $15,644 (same bottom line price, right?) but be sure you tell them NOT to show a Doc Fee as a separate line item on the bill of sale. That way your signature can never be associated with paying a Doc Fee.
Am I clever or what?
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Simple answer is it's a real money maker for the dealership just for the right to sell you a car. Your gripe is not with the sales person because they don't get any of it. All of this fee (pure profit) goes to the owner of the dealership. Nice, ain't it, not to allow the sales person to make some money from this.
Just another reason why you should be wary of car dealers, they will even take advantage of there own employees.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Yeah, that's something that's always "agitated" me. The dealership will bend over backwards to lower the sale price of their car, in order to keep the full price of doc. fees intact. Thereby lowering the commission of the poor old salesperson, while padding their already fat wallets.
When buying my Buick Regal several years ago, I overheard the sales manager telling my salesman that if the salesman ran a Carfax on the car I was thinking about buying, the cost of the Carfax report would be coming out of his commission. Now that's pretty low. Kinda makes me want to go out and pay MSRP on my next vehicle.
That's low alright but do you really want to go this far?
They will love ya a lot though.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
thanks!
The doc fee is the fees the dealer charges you to document the vehicle things such as tags, title and such. Basically its to cover the cost of doing the paperwork with the state.
Does it really cost $399 to do that? no
Is it all profit to the dealer? no the dealer still has costs associated with it. This process just doesn't magically happen, there is someone who processes that paperwork that the dealership has to pay. The actual cost to the dealer most likely runs between $10 - $20.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
The great part about the Documentation Fee, is that you don't see it until you're ready to sign the papers unless you ask first.
Of course with all the numbers on the bill of sale if you're not looking closely you could easily miss it.
Buyer beware,
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
The best way to avoid aggravation associated with seeing various fees and add-ons on the final paperwork is to negotiate an out-the-door price. Decide exactly how much you are willing to pay for the vehicle. Give the dealership your offer, and state that it's an out-the-door offer - if the bottom-line price on the paperwork is not the OTD price you agreed on, tell them you're leaving.
That way, you don't care one bit how they split it up. If they want to charge you $1 for the vehicle and $15,500 for the doc fees, it's not your problem.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
No, that would be covered under tax, license and title.
The best way to avoid aggravation associated with seeing various fees and add-ons on the final paperwork is to negotiate an out-the-door price.
Yep.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Nahhhh. I was just joshing about paying MSRP. I ain't that crazy. :confuse:
I do like the OTD method of car buying though. The only problem with it though is when the dealership splits it the way the wants, he'll leave a smaller piece of pie for the salesman. I would much rather see the salesmen get a little bit more than the Stealership.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
Which basically means to me, I'm giving the dealer a $399 profit. But, again, since the car is in demand, that's probably the best I'm going to get.
No, the dealer is grossing a whole lot more than $399. To estimate that, add together at least these amounts --
-The holdback amount (in Honda's case, 3% of the base MSRP)
-The difference between invoice and whatever price that you are paying
-Any add-ons
-The doc fees
-Any incentives paid by Honda to the dealership (although there probably aren't any on a Fit)
And that doesn't include whatever profit is being made on your trade-in, and any profits that the dealership earns if you finance the purchase through them.
There are a lot more opportunities for profit flying around this transaction aside from a doc fee, the dealership may be making thousands of dollars on this sale.
But unfortunately, if you absolutely have to have an extremely popular car, then this is one of those situations where you don't have much wiggle room. Just be sure that you don't also give up too much on the trade in, financing and other components of the deal.
For the record though, I was only joking about the "stealership" thing.
Remember... we are watched by a LOT more members than those who post.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
I will NOT keep my 2006 Sienna LE long enough to get that many miles as I don't like it overall as well as the 2002 T&C LX I had before buying the Sienna.
If you have a legitimate beef with a dealership that can and should be expressed in a civil tone with no name calling.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
In late August, I went to a DaimlerChrysler dealership that does NOT carry Toyota and was told my Sienna LE was worth $ 21,000 on a trade and they offered to sell the 2006 GC SXT at a lower price than the "Stealership" (and DC dealership has lower Doc Fees). I would have traded that day if the GC SXT had not had too many options that neither my wife nor I want. :shades:
Apparently the Toyota dealer felt the Sienna depreciates faster than the DaimlerChrysler dealer. :shades:
Lots more rebates at a domestic store to play with.
You can call a spade a spade; all I'm asking that we avoid is putting everyone in the same pot (or cesspool, as the case may be).
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
To define that for those who don't know, OTD includes....
--the price you're paying for the car
--Tax, Title, License
--any other fees that show up either during time of negotiations, or in the finance office (including "doc" fees)
In short, it's the amount that you pay for the car, all inclusive (or, if you're paying cash, the amount you'll be writing the check for...or, if no trades or down payments involved, the amount you'll be financing).
Key here is to add in your taxes, license, title fees into the offer and make certain the dealership knows you're "all in" with your offer. No other $$$ can be added to it.
Of course, if you're financing, the interest goes to the lending institution.
Be careful here, too. If the dealer is arranging financing, they may add points to the interest rate as a "fee" for their services to do so. Best to have financing set up with your bank/credit union BEFORE you walk into the dealership.
Arrange your financing outside the dealer. They can legally mark up your load in many states. I order a car to get just what I want and I never finance at the dealer. I have used the OTD price method several times and it worked well and was very fast.
You have to allow a decent profit for the dealer. This can depend on the car and time of year as well as other factors. Get the Consumers Report auto price report for $14.00. It has everything you will need including rebates and incentives.
My last saleman told me that 80% of the people don't know what they are doing. I think a lot of the other 20% don't know much either. The truth is out there, just go find it.
You can a whole lot of money in your life time and have a lot fewer problems if you are an informed consumer.
I've never tried the OTD offer method when buying a vehicle, but I might try it on my next purchase. I've always used the cost excluding TT&L in obtaining bids from competing dealers over the internet, figuring that I could add the TT&L costs myself to get to my OTD total. Take care. Ralph
I've got 2 dealers with 2 OTD prices. But each one is charging me a different tax and tag price. ??? What's up with that?
So, I called my County Clerk's office and she quoted me another amount for tax. I'm confused.
I guess I shouldn't worry about the tax and tag, just go with the lowest OTD offer?
We rountinely guess a little high on reg fees since we sell cars to so many out of state clients. The office just sends the customer a check for the amount we overcharge when they process the deal. Only takes a week or so.