Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Nissan Titan vs. Ford F150
This discussion has been closed.
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
As to Mazda, business 101 listen up Ant! Ford controls Mazda, they don't own it. Remember deriding me because I said I don't agree with the way industry counts sales in the full size truck category? Well, the industry doesn't measure Mazda production as part of Ford - Have you not read your Detroit News lately? That is why they are saying Toyota passed Ford for #2 in the world production. Why the double standard?
As to your comment "NOT Consumer Reports, Car and Driver, nor MotorTrend, which are questionable resources in the industry."
Give me a break, if I had the energy I would go back and find your post where you said "Congratulations F-150 on winning Motor Trends Truck of the year" So, it is okay if it says something favourable about Ford - but otherwise it is a rag like Consumer Reports?
Ya know Ant - ya wear me out! Now go ahead and start quoting me! :-)
"Ford Motor Co.'s Crown Victoria sedans, the subject of lawsuits over fatal fires and a recall of some 2003 models for potential wheel cracks, face a U.S. inquiry after police departments said axles broke or wheels fell off."
I guess Detroit news wouldn't post his, eh?
Let's hear you Ford guys say why this is ANOTHER award that the Titan should not have gotten.
" Don't you read the headlines about the lawsuits? Axles falling off and such,,,tsk, tsk Ford having axles fall off?"
That was Detroit news, and and your incorrect in stating that the rear axles are falling off. Two different police agencies have reported premature wear or fractured axle. Ford issued a service buletin to check for the issues, and NHTSA has opened preliminary investigation. Like they do on EVERY manufacturer when a concern is brought to them.
At no time did the article mention about rear axles falling off, so let's control the drama a bit.
"As to Mazda, business 101 listen up Ant! Ford controls Mazda, they don't own it"
Yes in the U.S. it's controlling interest. By Japanese laws, it's owning. Either one, doesn't matter since Ford is working by U.S. industry facts, which is why I HAVEN'T stated "Ford is still #2 because of Mazda sales", That's irrelevant to the point.
"Give me a break, if I had the energy I would go back and find your post where you said "Congratulations F-150 on winning Motor Trends Truck of the year" So, it is okay if it says something favourable about Ford - but otherwise it is a rag like Consumer Reports?"
I'm stating the news factor behind it, even if I'm not in agreeance towards the way they rate their vehicle. Focus won car of the year in Europe for example, in some motor show...Whoop Dee Doo, I'll report...Have I been to the show? No... Should I not mention the story because I didn't attend it? No... Should I not mention it even if I would never buy a Focus anyways? No...
Why do many of us insider's in the industry do not take MT, C&D, etc serious? When they test a vehicle initial, they sing praises over it, love it, have orgasms over it. Next month, they kick the vehicle, proclaim all it's faults, and leave it like some [non-permissible content removed] child. And not to mention the advertising dollar's and their sources of revenue. GM's Lutz already stated he would be spending much less on advertising on such magazines.... Found that rather ironic since GM is one of the biggest advertiser's.
As for Consumer Report's, their way of gathering information is questionable, and comparing it to other survey gathering resources, there's a huge margin of error...Specially considering where/who these survey's are being answered by. Numerous stories have been written over this issue concerning Consumer Reports and their validity over vehicle assessments being questionable. Freepress, AutoWeek, and Detroit News had stories related to that. JDPower Survey is the source most in the industry take much more seriously.
"I guess Detroit news wouldn't post his, eh? "
Don't let the name fool you. Just because it has Detroit in the title, doesn't mean they are biased towards american products, if anything, read some of the stories... and you might see it's the other way around. Check articles from Doron Levin, Paul Linert, Daniel Howes, John McCormick....
And YES Detroit News ALSO published this story, written by Jeff Plungis from the Detroit news Washington Bureau dated Jan 27th, Titled: Crown Victoria axles probed. But surely because the name Detroit is in the title, you might still find it biased.
MOTOWN:
"As for your disdain of Consumer Reports; that's pretty much what I expect from someone who cannot deal with the facts, or just plain ignorant. "
No I think it's YOU who are ignorant to use JUST ONE source (questionable at that) to derive your ill-informed opinions. Pretend that your in school, and think your writting an essay report. And that you need to gather numerous resources for an article... NOT ONE...But various that have the same point. And THEN maybe story might seem a bit more credible then just ONE source.
Here is a quote:
"Ford Motor Co.'s Crown Victoria sedans, the subject of lawsuits over fatal fires and a recall of some 2003 models for potential wheel cracks, face a U.S. inquiry after police departments said axles broke or wheels fell off. "
Ant, lighten up - other people like other "rags" and in their opinion they are better than your "rags". The point is, it is their opinion which they are entitled to, even if they are not an "insider"
As a businessman and more importantly a consumer, I want all car companies to do well (increased competition means better cars). This is the problem that Ford has. They aren't able to compete in today's global economy. And mo is right, they are so busy playing catchup they aren't thinking ahead and this will definitely hurt them in the long run. I hope that ford learns how to revive its company before it is too late.
Hey I am not Motown, but - you must be toking something???? eg.
A owns 26% of company, B owns 25% of company C owns 20% of company John Q public owns rest.
Who owns the company? answer A & B & C & JQ do.
They all do - Doesn't Wharton teach you that??????
As to controlling the company, who do you think does???? Wharton teach you that??
"I meant to say Axles breaking and wheels falling off (and/or cracking)...sorry for the blunder. The lawsuits were about the crown vics catching fire. Three different problems."
Yes, I've addressed this issue on another forum. Since the CV has been in duty since the early 80's, 22 vehicles have caught fire while being plowed from behind...these vehicles are ALL the Police Interceptor models. Why? Because the accidents mostly involved police officer's stopped on the side of the highway giving a ticket, (and one as an example) a drunk driver plowed into the rear with his Jeep Grand Cherokee doing 75MPH. At that speed, ANY VEHICLE should catch fire. I say they should test it on Accord or Camry and see how much worse it can be.
NHTSA investigated those incidents, and concluded that the CV was safe and did pass government mandates for rear impact protection. While lawsuits are still being fought in the courtroom. I have a great link detailing this if your interested, I have it on my home computer.
"Ant, lighten up - other people like other "rags" and in their opinion they are better than your "rags". The point is, it is their opinion which they are entitled to, even if they are not an "insider" "
I'm fine with opinions, we all have them. But when someone is posting false information, company demise with no principal's or research to back it up, all conclusions summed up by a few paragraphs of one article...THEN there's a problem.
Granted, no company is perfect and I will find pros/cons with all of them, but having this vision of Ford being doomed as if this were Argamedon when there's numerous other companies with much worse problems, is just what we call "Old Detroit" hype circa 1990's.
I'm off tomorrow to Chicago on "business", hopefully when I return on the 10th the topic would return to what initially it was set up for. :-)
As to Toyota unit sale wise is #2 in 2003, it's pure news sensationalism. Nothing more than that. Market cap wise or profit wise, Toy. is much better than Ford (better than BIG3 combined!) for several years now (ever since the Firestone tire recall). But that's not news worthy in 2004, now is it?
Actually, the news headline should read, "By traditional reporting method, Ford not counting Mazda's output while Toyota counts all output from its two subsidiaries, Toyota has surpassed Ford as the world #2 automaker in 2003, by about 60,000 units." You think people will be interested in this news?
Technically, Toyota does not wholly own its two subsidiaries, they are both at 50.1%, IIRC. So, if you take away half sales of those two sub. from Toy. number, and more importantly, add 1/3 of Mazda sales to Ford number, Ford is comfortably in the front by over 400,000 units. But who's counting.
That all said, I do acknowledge that Toyota is doing much better than Ford right now. I still remember in mid 90s, then Ford CEO Trotman predicted that Ford would surpass GM (revenue wise) to be the world #1 automaker in the near future. At the same time, Toyota chairman said Toyota would be world number two (he didn't say who would be #1) in ten years.
If you want to discuss the business side of the automotive world, the News & Views board would be a better choice. There are always topics active over there geared more towards talking about the manufacturers than the vehicles. Let's leave this one as is... a comparison topic, Titan vs F-150
Thanks!
PF Flyer
Host
Pickups & News & Views Message Boards
Ford on the other hand, went straight for the mainstream consumers,updating their current truck in all areas. No, I don't believe the new f150 will win ANY comparisons, but it will take the sales crown, year in and year out.
Nothing wrong with either approach, but remember to shop carefully for your needs. I think they Nissan Crew XE is wonderfully priced and content laden. I also would never consider buying a KC XE b/c they appear overpriced and don't deliver enough features for the money.
My $0.02, lets get this thing back on track
Regards,
AGGIE
I had read rumors that Ford was working on a 300+hp twin spark Triton 5.4V8. I was just wondering if Ford had a more competitive engine waiting in the wings. It looks like Ford either needs a more powerful engine or a better transmission to match the performance of the Titan.
In the meantime, someone should work on getting the Nissan drivetrain in the F150.....
Did the twin plug head on the Ranger's 2.5 SOHC inline four do any good? Yes, but given that the engine was such an outdated lump it was hard to tell. I think it was more like Ford attempting to squeeze the last ounce of utility out of an ancient design. A noble pursuit, but without significant gains.
As many of you likely know, Mercedes uses twin plug 3V heads on most of its engines. It seems to work well for them - why not Ford?
The old 2.3L shares nothing with the new 2.3L that's found in the current Focus. Two totally different designs that ironically have the same displacement.
"Anyone knows why Ford's 5.4L is only 3V not 4V?"
Cost, efficiency. The 4V as Nvbanker stated, would be Intech which is used in the Navigator.
"Dual spark is generally used for emission purposes rather than performance"
Very true, that was the main emphansize of Ford's engine redesign.
"GM's truck sales were up 12.8 percent. Ford's truck sales fell 4.7 percent, despite the continuing success of the F-150 pickup. Chrysler sold 21.5 percent more trucks than the previous January.
Jim O'Connor, Ford's vice president for North American marketing, sales and service, expressed confidence that the company's new models of cars would yield results by the end of 2004. "
Ford, GM Report Decline in January Sales
February 4, 2004 06:10 AM EST
DETROIT - As the overall car and truck market stagnates, General Motors Corp. and Ford Motor Co. saw sales drop more than expected last month even as Japan's Toyota Motor Corp. and Nissan Motor Co. continue to surge in the American market.
Together, domestic and foreign makers reported a 0.7 percent drop in car and light-truck sales for January.
GM, the world's largest automaker, said Tuesday that its new car and truck sales fell 1.8 percent in January, while Ford reported a "painful" decline of 9.8 percent.
Nissan said its sales soared 25.7 percent, while Toyota's climbed 15.8 percent. Honda sales fell 3.7 percent.
DaimlerChrysler AG's Chrysler Group was alone among the traditional "Big Three" domestic automakers to report a positive month, noting a 9.4 percent increase.
Analysts had expected frigid weather in much of the country to offset brisk business at the end of January. But if the weather was a factor, it did not appear to affect all companies.
"Perhaps it only snowed on GM and Ford dealers during the month," quipped David Healy, an analyst with Burnham Securities Inc. "Bottom line, it's the same old story - the Japanese brands are eating Detroit's lunch."
The seasonally adjusted annual sales rate for January was 16.1 million units, compared with 16.2 million in January 2003. The sales rate indicates what sales for the full year would be if they remained at the same pace for all 12 months.
"January sales results were below expectations," said John Smith, GM's vice president for North American sales, service and marketing. "While we had good results in some divisions ... a new industry record in sport utility sales and strong truck sales overall, car sales and sales in certain regions were disappointing."
Ford, the nation's second biggest automaker, said it remained optimistic that a new car lineup would change its fortunes.
Both GM and Ford saw the biggest declines in their car sales, with GM's car sales down 16.8 percent and car sales for the Ford, Lincoln and Mercury brands falling 20.1 percent. Chrysler's car sales also fell, declining 23.2 percent.
GM's truck sales were up 12.8 percent. Ford's truck sales fell 4.7 percent, despite the continuing success of the F-150 pickup. Chrysler sold 21.5 percent more trucks than the previous January.
Jim O'Connor, Ford's vice president for North American marketing, sales and service, expressed confidence that the company's new models of cars would yield results by the end of 2004.
"The most painful declines from the standpoint of our overall performance are the midsize cars - the Ford Taurus and the Mercury Sable," Ford sales analyst George Pipas said in a conference call with investors. "Painful in the sense that mid-size cars still represent about 20 percent of total new vehicle sales in the United States."
Taurus sales fell 26.6 percent, and Sable sales were down 47.1 percent.
But Pipas said "help is on the way" in the form of two new mid-size sedans, the Ford Five Hundred and the Mercury Montego.
Also going on sale this year, which Ford has dubbed "the year of the car," are a redesigned Focus, a new Mustang, and the crossover Freestyle wagon.
The car introductions mark a shift for Ford, which like other U.S. automakers, has put most of its emphasis on pickups and SUVs in recent years, losing ground in the car market to Japanese companies.
More:
"As U.S. automakers have neglected the car market, Japanese companies have gained ground with trucks. Nissan, which last year introduced the Armada, a full-size SUV, and the Titan pickup, saw truck sales soar 65 percent last month. Toyota's truck sales were up 27.4 percent."
Full Text of the Story:
http://start.earthlink.net/newsarticle?cat=1&aid=D80GD6300_st- - ory
-But Lincoln's 5.4L is a DOHC.
""Dual spark is generally used for emission purposes rather than performance"
Very true, that was the main emphansize of Ford's engine redesign."
-So where is Ford's 2nd spark plug?
As to the 4000+ Titans sold. Nissan is extremely satisfied as they really didn't have much inventory on many dealers lots. It is going to take a while to get the inventory to the level where customers can buy their choice off the lot. Many people (including me), have had to order and that takes up to 90 days. I read an article that said the Nissan brass is very happy at how well it is selling.
Another fact is Ford sold 84,278 F-150s in Dec 2003, which you say is a record - but they sold 84,657 in Dec of 2001 - not much of an increase, eh?
My point wasn't to cut down Ford about how many new trucks they sold, it is just be careful how companies say things. I would like them to give us a breakdown of how many of those F-series trucks that were sold (not to the dealers, but the end consumers) were the new F-150's.
We know exactly what Nissan sold, but we don't know what the new F-150 sold.
Besides - Ford is going to sell a ton of F-150s. Nobody is really disputing that. Each Titan that is sold a new sale for Nissan and a lost potential sale for Ford. So, in January, Ford sold 4000+ units less than they could have sold.
I'd like to see the sales figures on the F-150 vs. Chevy 1500 vs. Ram 1500...why can't they publish the half-ton sales individually?...what are they hiding?...I own an F-150 myself but honestly I've never seen so many Dodge Rams in my entire life...their sales have to be up, bigtime...
Just to go a little further, Ford actually had the 2nd worst increase of full size truck sales in January.
Nissan Titan Jan 2004 N/A no sales in Jan 2003
Toyota Tundra Jan 2004 23.7% increase over Jan 2003
GM F/S trucks Jan 2004 15% increase over Jan 2003
Ford F series Jan 2004 9.6% increase over Jan 2003
Dodge Ram Jan 2004 1 % increase over Jan 2003
This probably means that Ford loss market share in Jan 2004, although how much? who knows.
What is obvious from these numbers is the F/S segment grew in Jan 2004.
Make any other assumptions you want.
What you call assumption, I say obvious. Let's use common sense here:
1) 2 out of 3 F150 factories produce the new F150 (at full speed), the other one, '04 heritage model;
2) dumping of the '03 F150 started in Sep. 03, it had been going on for 5 months before Jan. 04.
3) HD F-series is about 40% of the total, and pretty steady, likely not the reason for double digit increase 5 months in a row.
My conclusion: Unit wise in Jan. 04, '04 F150 > '04 heritage > '03 F150. ANT may get you some hard number. I will also ask around.
If you insist on calling it an assumption, fine. I would say my "assumption" is about 95% correct, the other 5% being HD F-series had significant increase. Do you want to bet that my "assumpiton" is wrong?
PS: you number on December F-series sales should be reversed, it's 84,657 for 12/03 and 84,278 for 12/01. So, yes, it is a new all time record against an old all time record.
PPS: regarding total full size PU sale, I already posted it yesterday. Since it did not fit this topic, I posted in another thread,
hairong "How long before the big 3 lose the truck market?" Feb 3, 2004 4:00pm
with a title, Everybody's happy.
The whole market for full sized trucks increased but Ford was the 2nd worst all all the full sized manufacturers. No assumptions there.
So if you take your assumption as fact (that is fine by me) the new F-150 might have increased the sales of the F series, but not as much as the competition, and in that sense, the new F-150 isn't yet the success you are making it out to be. That is not saying that it won't become a success going forward, Ford seems to be stuck in a small rut right now, though, and that might be hindering the F150 also. Things can and do change, so we will see if it is a positive and negative one for Ford going forward.
By the way, Edmunds has a new F-150 as a long term tester and so far it is a mixed review not looking to good. That too can change over the course of the next year or two. Especially since they are also getting a similiar Titan as a long-term tester to compare to! Maybe the F-150 will rise way above the Titan, maybe not. :-)
f150 retail sales by itself are usually about 45% of the total.
i cant say for ford as a whole, but we have sold more f250s and f350s in the last few months than any other time in the past.
1) F-series is from F150 to F550, 650/750 are not included. Ford calls them Heavy Trucks and count them separately.
2) In 2003, Ford sold 845,586 F-series, 350,320 of them were F250-F550, good for 41%. In other words, F150 accounts for 59%, not 45%.
3) Heavy Trucks (F650/750s) sales were 976 in 12/03 and 839 in 01/04. If Nissan were to have commercial trucks in NA market, these number would have had significant contribution to Titan sales (trying vainly to be on topic). But for F-series, they barely even register.
You said you are also a Ford dealer, you really should have known better. Now where is the Nissan number.
From "Don't forget the record month for f-series includes, all the 2003s F-150s that have been heavily discounted, all the heritage models, and most importantly F-250, and f-350's",
to "You are making assumptions...We know exactly what Nissan sold, but we don't know what the new F-150 sold",
to "the new F-150 might have increased the sales of the F series",
I am glad I convinced you that the new F150 did increased the sales of the F-series. Common sense always win out. Actually Ford sold over 26k of new F150 in January, about 8k of the old ones (03&04 models), so there you go.
"The whole market for full sized trucks increased but Ford was the 2nd worst all all the full sized manufacturers. No assumptions there."
There you go again. Trying to skew the fact in your favor. If I may, let me try to spin it in Ford's favor.
1) For the past two years, GM monthly market share have fluctuated anywhere from 26% to 32%, a direct result of their different incentive level. So their increase really did not surprise me. OTOH, Ford market share have been on steady decline, sad but worked in my favor for this case.
2) Ford, Nissan and Toyota all benefited greatly from their new products. But since their base number were so different, 56k, 0 and 6k respectively, the percentage number are all over the place. If you look at unit increase, at 5428, 4035 and 1500 respectively, Ford may have made more profit on the increase alone than
Nissan made on all Titan sales in January. How's that for a spin.
3) Percentage wise, Titan's number is out of the universe. But, even if they only sold 1 Titan in Jan., the number is still out of the universe. That's why I asked bowke for Nissan's projection in the first place.
Like I said, everybody is happy. They should.