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Owe more than it's worth... I'm upside down and I can't get up!

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Comments

  • jlawrence01jlawrence01 Member Posts: 1,757
    Sorry, but your story should be Chapter 1 on "Why Most people Shouldn't Lease".

    My suggestion - nothing very original - is to do the necessary repairs and hold on to the vehicle until you have paid it off completely and have a significant downpayment on your next ride.

    I know that sounds harsh but there are a lot of us out here with cars at or nearing 150k. And besides, everyone tells me that Honda Odysseys have "bulletproof" reliability.

    Rolling negative equity from vehicle to vehicle is simply deferring the inevitable - paying off the vehicle which you will have to do eventually.

    30k/year on a leased vehicle ...OUCH!
  • steine13steine13 Member Posts: 2,825
    (i) be happy it's a Honda and not a Chevy.
    (ii) next time you do this, put some money aside to pay for it. driving 30k/year is not free, any way you slice it.
    (iii) what jlawrence said.

    good grief.
    -Mathias
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Under the heading of "The lesser of many evils", you might want to ask Honda Finance (or whoever you leased through) if you can lease it for two or three more years. By then the buy-out value might be low enough (and your finances might be healthy enough) to buy it out for cash (i.e. no loan). Then you can drive it into the dirt, and get a new car without any "rolling of debt".

    Not a great option either, but like I said, it might be the lesser of many evils.

    Regarding the longevity of your Oddy, the only problem areas that I've heard of is the transmission (who hasn't heard of that one), and warped brake rotors (suffered by both of the Oddys in my neighborhood and fixed with cross drilled rotors).

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • jlawrence01jlawrence01 Member Posts: 1,757
    (ii) next time you do this, put some money aside to pay for it. driving 30k/year is not free, any way you slice it.

    What MOST people do not realize when they are leasing is that they are RENTING the car. You are paying by the mile. If you use more than you agreed to, you had better put some money aside to cover the mileage miss.

    Personally, as a fleet manager, most of my fleet drivers drive between 10-15k per year. Therefore, I set up a depreciation over 50 months so that after four years, I am always (usually) able to sell the car for a profit.

    If I lease a Toyota or Lexus, I may go out 60 months due to the higher residual value.

    I just inherited a company driver who puts 45k miles per year on a car. With him, I depreciate the car over 30 MONTHS. That means I am paying a HUGE lease payment on a $25k car (Grand Prix).

    Those cheap lease payments that everybody is attracted to are only suited to those who can meet the 10-12k miles per year limits.
  • cadillacmikecadillacmike Member Posts: 543
    Hi, been hanging out in the desert!, still have both ragtops, 1 is sitting in my garage, the other is getting paint / body work while I'm gone... :shades:
  • cadillacmikecadillacmike Member Posts: 543
    "I know that sounds harsh but there are a lot of us out here with cars at or nearing 150k. "

    Very true, My 1995 Fleetwood has over 185,000 miles on it and it still looks and runs like a new car! :shades:
  • mark824mark824 Member Posts: 9
    So i have a good deal on a 2WD EX-L 2006 Pilot for 27,500 walk out the door.

    I have about 4 months left on my lease. Im about 800-1000 upside down so to speak. I have a lot of upcoming trips and if keep my current car I will go way over the miles.

    Whats the best way to handle this with the dealer? I have 2 that are about the same price on the pilot so I can play them againsit one other. They have given me the price not even knowing I have a trade.

    Any advice would be nice. I could pay the lease off ealry and give back tto Jeep. My Jeep dealer keeps sending me stuff saying then need 2004 Jeeps and so on.

    Thanks for any adivce.

    Mark
  • sebring95sebring95 Member Posts: 3,241
    Without really knowing what they'll give you on a trade, it's hard to say how much you're upside down. $800-$1,000 doesn't sound like you're upside down at all as that probably equals the last 4 payments. The Jeep dealers don't need your vehicle, they just want to get you in the door. They can buy anything at the dealer auction all day long if they really have a big demand for used Jeeps. They don't. SUV's are sitting. They're going to try and get you in a new one or offer you less than auction value on yours. Very common practice to send letters like that. If people aren't coming through the doors, they're not selling.

    It certainly won't hurt to try, but consider what it would cost you to just park the jeep for 4 months (or use it limitedly) and turn it in at the normal time.
  • deserth8rdeserth8r Member Posts: 45
    I am not an expert by any means, but how about renting a car for these long trips you have, I am willing to bet a couple weeks worth of rentals would be less than even the $800 you might be negative.
  • corvettecorvette Member Posts: 11,281
    Ideally, buy the Pilot, drive it on the upcoming trips, park the Jeep and continue making the last four payments on it, and turn it in at the end of the lease (this is what I'd do). If you drive the Jeep over the allowed mileage, you will end up owing the next four months' payments plus mileage charges.

    You could mention your situation to the dealer from which you are buying the Pilot, but don't expect any miracles. They have given you an out-the-door price with no trade and now you are adding a trade-in to the mix, and the remaining payments have to come from somewhere.
  • steine13steine13 Member Posts: 2,825
    It would be a pain if by going over mileage, one would also go beyond the warranty. Any -- ANY! -- issues at turn-in are then the lessee's problem. I would not want that hanging over my head.

    OTOH, the overmileage is usually 15 c/mile or so. That's pretty cheap if nothing bad happens... I doubt the miles on the Pilot are going to come any cheaper...

    -Mathias
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,345
    Mathias: there is a big difference. Miles on the lease car have to be paid now (ok, 4 months). Miles on the pilot are effectively "free", to the extent that they are deffered until realized (extra depreciation?).

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • steine13steine13 Member Posts: 2,825
    As Terry used to say: Whether it comes out of your left pocket or out of your right pocket, it comes out of the same pair of jeans!

    -Mathias
  • turboshadowturboshadow Member Posts: 338
    What happened to Terry...he doesn't seem to have been around for a while.

    Turboshadow
  • exb0exb0 Member Posts: 539
    Mathias makes a good point about the out of warranty Jeep. However, if the Jeep is doing fine, then it’s a matter of basic math. There is no way of getting out the last four payments on the Jeep. Therefore, if you’re planning to buy the Pilot now, you have to compare the cost of four payments on the Pilot to how much would the extra miles cost you. Assuming that you are financing the Pilot at $600 a month, that would be $2400 for four payments. $2400 can buy a lot of miles. Also, if you buy the Pilot now, you are buying an 06 model year, that would cost you cost about $2000 at trade in time compared to an 07 because it would a year older.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,345
    It's more pay me now, or pay me later I think. That is, if neither pocket has money in it now, then you are broke!

    Good point though about the payments. The logic to park the lease car to avoid excess miles only makes sense ifyou already have another car to drive. If the payment clock on the Pilot is going to start 4 months earlier, then you will be doible dipping.

    But, back to the jeans pocket, you are going to pay for the next car anyway, it's just a matter of when you start (that is, start now for 36 months, or wait 4 months and pay for months 5-40).

    I think this is a long winded way of saying there are 3 costs to be paid. 4 lease payments, payments on the Pilot, and excess mile charges. Only the mile charge can be eliminated. The other 2 are going to be paid, the only variable is a 4 month possible swing on when.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • lovelikemelovelikeme Member Posts: 2
    i'd like to trade in my 2003 saturn ion..for a suped up car off a lot in modesto...the used car is lots less that my car. how does it work when u trade for a cheaper car.?
  • lovelikemelovelikeme Member Posts: 2
    i'd like to trade in my 2003 saturn ion..for a suped up car off a lot in modesto...the used car is lots less that my car. how does it work when u trade for a cheaper car.?
    :(
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,345
    well, it's just like trading in a car worth less than the new one, except instead of you giving them a check for the difference, they give you one!

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • mac24mac24 Member Posts: 3,910
    .......instead of you giving them a check for the difference, they give you one!

    Assuming of course that the car being traded in is fully paid for. ;)
  • gussguss Member Posts: 1,167
    Don't do it. Tuner cars are never a bargain. You will never know what the previous guy did and his abilities as a mechanic.
  • suvgalsuvgal Member Posts: 39
    Leased a 2005 Highlander V6 Limited for 60mos at 12K/yr. Paying $365/mo but I know I will be between 12-15K over mileage at end. Know i will be looking at between 2000-2200 on over mileage + another 800 for extended warranty for final two years (since I actually have to purchase a 75000 mile warranty so no out-of-pocket costs when things go wrong which i know with my luck they will). I want to trade it in and get a 36 mos/15K mile lease on a similar vehicle. Unfortunately I am about 5K in the whole since the HL's worth about 22K and I owe 27K. (I paid ~31K on this 35K car after $3300 down + incentives - I know I got taken there). Anyway, anybody have any advice on what to do? I have 44 mos left on the lease. Should I stick it out until the end (and just pay over mileage + warranty) or could I do better trading in (if I can find a payment of $440 or less on similar car I actually would be better cause that's about what this car is actually costing me adding in those two items).
    Thank you all in advance.
  • grandtotalgrandtotal Member Posts: 1,207
    Stay with the car you have. Don't forget you will also need to find the $5k that you are in the hole and another deposit. It rarely makes sense to get out of one lease to get into another on a similar vehicle.

    Is there another reason you want to get out of your current car that you have not told us?
  • suvgalsuvgal Member Posts: 39
    Other than that I think I got a bad deal, no. Runs perfect, in excellent condition. Just don't know if I want to keep it for five years.
  • grandtotalgrandtotal Member Posts: 1,207
    OK, then don't keep it 5 years, keep it 3 or 4. You'll be better off (financially) the longer you keep it.
  • jimbresjimbres Member Posts: 2,025
    Don't buy an extended warranty. These rarely return the purchase price - particularly when the vehicle in question is a top-tier Japanese brand. Worried about the cost of out-of-warranty repairs? Here's a quaint idea: open a bank account & deposit the $800 that you were planning to spend on the warranty. Then stash away another $150/month. That's only $5 per day. You can manage that. (I'm guessing that you don't have much in the way of savings. Otherwise, you wouldn't even consider buying an extended warranty.)

    Forgive me if I'm misreading your post, but you come across as financially undisciplined. This car was apparently an impulse acquisition. I suspect that you jumped into it without doing much in the way of research. For one thing, a car lease should never run beyond the warranty period. That's Leasing 101. You're probably not a good candidate for leasing. You say that you'll be 12-15K over the mileage limit at the end of a 5-yr, 60K lease. That means that even with a 15K/ year lease, you'll be bumping up against the mileage limit. You'll have no margin for error. Leasing works best for folks who know they won't exceed the mileage limit & who are firmly in control of their financial lives. That doesn't seem to describe you.

    Stick with the Highlander until the end of the lease, doing whatever you can (carpooling, public transportation) to hold down the miles. Then buy something & keep it for at least a couple of years after you've paid it off. You might also consider seeking professional financial help.
  • steine13steine13 Member Posts: 2,825
    Boy, aren't you a little ray of sunshine :shades:

    I disagree with you on the extended warranty... mostly 'cuz I agree with you on not leasing past the warranty period. $800 my foot.. I bet that extension to 5 years cost $1,500 or so... and one half of an AC failure later, you're even... even Lexus builds a clinker now and then.

    I also think the original poster should do the math again and think about it... for as loaded and expensive as the car is, $3,300 down + $365/month is not a bad deal *at all*.

    And the over-the-limit charge of $2k or so is nothing but the cost of doing business.. sounds like 20 cents/mile or less.. that's pretty darned good for a luxo SUV... if you were driving a cheap Camry, you'd be spending 10cents/mile at least... I'd definitely keep the Lexus and not worry about the "lousy" deal... I think it's pretty good.

    For comparison, I bought an '03 Sienna for $3,800 down and $20k financed at 0%. That was $556/month for 3 years and then I owned it... that's very similar to $365 for 60 months... so if I pay the same you pay, I'm left with a $9k vehicle that I own after 5 years... at best...

    You are left with -0- but you've driven a $35k car, not a $22k car. Sounds fair to me. Maybe you don't need "professional financial help" after all.

    -Mathias
  • grandtotalgrandtotal Member Posts: 1,207
    The original poster wasn't talking about a Lexus, she was talking about a Totota Highlander.
  • jimbresjimbres Member Posts: 2,025
    I'm a huge fan of yours, Mathias, but I'll stand by what I said about extended warranties. They violate a fundamental axiom of casualty insurance: pay a 3rd party to protect yourself from catastrophic losses & self-insure against everything else. A $300K house fire is certainly catastrophic, but if you're doing a proper job of managing your money, a $3K car repair shouldn't be.

    Most of the folks who come to this forum for help are burdened by some combination of too much debt & too little savings. Would a $2K mileage charge really bother the OP if she had a decent amount of money in the bank?
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Warranties on Toyotas are even cheaper then a Lexus.
  • audia8qaudia8q Member Posts: 3,138
    pay a 3rd party to protect yourself from catastrophic losses & self-insure against everything else. A $300K house fire is certainly catastrophic, but if you're doing a proper job of managing your money, a $3K car repair shouldn't be

    Your making a huge mistake assuming that people do a proper job of managing money. If they did I would agree..but after reading credit reports for many moons I can tell you that a large number of people do a terrible job of managing money and live paycheck to paycheck. This leaves no room for an unexpected major repair bill....so now the guy is faced with a $3000 repair bill and no money...what do they do? if they had the warranty it wouldnt be an issue.
  • jimbresjimbres Member Posts: 2,025
    Oh, I know that many folks mismanage their finances. The existence of this thread is proof of that. But how does it help the guy that you refer to in your post if 6 months after he's sunk $1500 into a gold-plated service contract, he needs a new roof or hot-water heater or he has to bail out his brother-in-law? If he still had that $1500 in the bank, he could use it for some of the non-car stuff that can go wrong. Instead, he now owns a piece of paper that will pay off only under certain specific narrowly-defined conditions. I suppose that he could call the warranty company & ask them if they'll help him pay for a new septic tank, but I think we all know what their answer will be.
  • dtownfbdtownfb Member Posts: 2,918
    You have very few (if any) options except to keep the vehicle since you are leasing the vehicle. It's not a matter of how much equity you have in the vehicle. Even after you complete payments, you do not own the vehicle, the leasing company does. I don't think any respectable car dealer will even touch this. The "mistake" you made was leasing for 5 years (a big no-no)and not getting enough miles. you should have done 15k/year.

    stick it out. You have a nice car to drive for the next 44 months. In this case, i would suggest getting an extended warranty (normally I would not) not unless you have sufficient savings to cover anything major. I believe the vehicle has 5 year/60k powertrain warranty so your transmission and major engine components are covered for the lease period. You'll still have to pay for brakes, tires, maintenance, etc. this is why most people only lease up to a 3 year period. Minimal out of pocket cost do to maintenance. Tires and brakes normally last 3 years and maintainence during this time is mostly oil changes.

    good luck.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,345
    that no dealer will touch it. They don't care how buried you are, or how it is financed. They just want a chance to get you in a new set of wheels if there is any possible way to git 'er done.

    You are right about the 5/60 powertrain warranty, although I think the poster was planning to be over miles. But, on a Toyota 9and the highlander has proven to be reliable), even if you hit 75K in 5 years, the odds are in your favor that nothing expensive is going to go wrong (that would be covered by the warranty).

    Maybe if you were planning to go out 7-8 years and 100k the warranty would make sense? But for 5 years, i like the idea of putting the cost of the warranty into a bank account instead

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • dtownfbdtownfb Member Posts: 2,918
    >

    She owes over $16k just in lease payments, plus you have the residual that needs to be paid to the leasing company. Probably over $27k total. The car is only worth $22k. That is lot to roll over into a new car loan.

    I agree the Highlander has been reliable. The extended warratny is more for the OP peace of mind. Personally, i would roll the dice and not purchase the warranty.
  • suvgalsuvgal Member Posts: 39
    All,
    Thanks for the advice. I haven't been online for a few days. I'll explain. This wasn't necessarily an impulse buy - I knew I wanted a Highlander - however, you are correct in the Leasing 101 department - I never did a lease before in my life and yes I got taken. dtownfb is right on the money as to what I am upside down so I might as well keep the HL until the lease is up and suck up the losses on extra mileage and such. If I do plan to lease after this, I am well-armed to do so. I didn't find Edmunds until after my lease - I had used KBB before. I wish I had - I really would have known what I was doing. Financially, I could afford to pay for repairs or even pay the amount upside-down, no problem. To me that doesn't make financial sense though (the paying off) cause I probably won't get exactly what I want after that for similar lease payments. Actually, I figured it out and the only way it made financial sense was that is I was only 3K upside down, I'd even out because if I did pay for the warranty and the extra mileage, I'd be actually paying about $441 a month (~$2600 (mileage) and $800 (warranty)). Unfortunately, I couldn't do that. Yes, I realize I made a huge mistake leasing for 5 years (apparently not the only one since I saw a few people in similar situations on the lease swapping sites including one that went for 6 years) but I guess we'll have to call this a lesson learned and I'll know better for next time. Thank you all.
  • mookie14mookie14 Member Posts: 252
    We are currently paying to "own" a 2003 Chevy TBlazer with about 25 monthly payments left of about $650. Extended warranty will end in July '07. Since we no longer want to "own" this vehicle and continue to put hard earned money into a vehicle that is obviously unreliable.

    Our plan is to add $200 over our regular payment to reduce the debt we owe. Expected to have about $3k for down payment on the Acura TL. As of right now, I think the '03 TBlazer with 90k miles is only worth $5k.

    Does anyone have a really rough idea what the payment will be when it comes time in October 2007? Our credit is good, so no issues there. With online companies like e-Loan, People First, is it possible they would do a deal like this?

    Thanks for any input!
  • pch101pch101 Member Posts: 582
    Does anyone have a really rough idea what the payment will be when it comes time in October 2007?

    This question can't be answered with the information that you have provided. You need to provide the current loan balance, term of loan and interest rate to be able to calculate a payoff balance.

    Also, if your car loan has a prepayment penalty, the cost of accelerating your loan payments may end up costing you, not saving you.

    My suggestions to you:

    (1) Assess your overall financial situation and prioritize your loans. If you have credit card debt at 18% and a 7% car loan, for example, then paying off the credit cards is a better use of your money. All things being equal, pay off the higher interest rate loans first.

    (2) In the future, don't buy cars on payments. By focusing on payments, it is more likely that you will pay too much for your car, get too little for your trade-in, pay too high of an interest rate and/or get bad terms, such as high "origination fees" and prepayment penalties in your loan documents. Instead, negotiate the purchase price as low as possible, then borrow the money with the lowest rate and best terms possible, and you will end up with the lowest possible payment naturally. If you can't afford the payment that is the result of that number crunching, then you can't afford the car.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,736
    With that kind of a payment, I'm assuming you rolled negative equity into the truck to begin with, right?

    Whatever you do, keep paying it down until you have no more negative equity. You do NOT want to keep rolling over balances again and again. It will only get you in deeper and deeper.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • bobstbobst Member Posts: 1,776
    You know, there are a lot of nice cars that cost much less than an Acura TL.
  • dtownfbdtownfb Member Posts: 2,918
    Hi Mookie14. I remember you from the old Explorer boards!

    As mentioned earlier, you need to supply some additonal information. It looks like you are trying to do as much as possible to pay this vehicle off in the next year or so. At your current pace, you'll have close to 120k on the vehicle. Check to make sure it is a simple loan and no prepayment penalty in the contract. With the extra $200 in each payment, it should help reduce the loan. It probably won't be paid off by next October, but you will ahve a manageable amount.

    If you like the Acura TL, you should consider the Accord EX. About $5000 cheaper and not much difference in performance.
  • mookie14mookie14 Member Posts: 252
    Found out our payoff amount is $16.5k with no prepayment penalties. In addition, TBlazer is worth $5k plus it has 91.4k miles. What do you think our payments for either an Acura TL or Accord EX look like even though we will have about 120k miles come Oct '07? Or will we have to get a lower price Asian vehicle to roll over some negative equity?

    I'm done with SUVs except MDX, pre-owned or new (which is going for $40k). Other than the Acura SUV, I don't see any others that I like. Ridgeline is too small. In a nutshell, I prefer a car.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,736
    you have to stop the cycle. I suggest stopping it now. Do NOT roll over negative equity! That's my advice, and I'm sticking to it!

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • pch101pch101 Member Posts: 582
    Again, no one can answer your question without the term and interest rate, because it is not possible to calculate the loan balance at a future date without knowing this information.

    That being said, rolling over negative equity is a good way to make yourself a slave to debt. You might consider whether you'd be better off with a cheaper car and a savings plan.
  • mookie14mookie14 Member Posts: 252
    Answer this for me is it better to be off with a auto that is VERY!! unreliable and a possible breakdown on the road??? Also with a warranty that expires in like 7-07 just curious i did not think you knew that ok.
  • pch101pch101 Member Posts: 582
    is it better to be off with a auto that is VERY!! unreliable

    I don't think that anyone advised you to buy an unreliable car. I hope that you're not saying that the only reliable car sold in the USA is a new Acura TL!
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Good advise but people just won't listen.
  • bobstbobst Member Posts: 1,776
    "Answer this for me is it better to be off with a auto that is VERY!! unreliable and a possible breakdown on the road???"

    Yes.
  • div2div2 Member Posts: 2,580
    Answer this for me is it better to be off with a auto that is VERY!! unreliable and a possible breakdown on the road???

    I agree with Bobst. Rolling negative equity into a new car loan is always a bad deal. Period.
  • davids1davids1 Member Posts: 411
    If you absolutely MUST be rid of the Tblazer, then sell it, pay down your balance and TRY to buy a cheap used car so you can get out from under your car debt. Once your car debt is gone, completely, then consider if you need a new(er) car or prefer being without debt (i.e. keep the cheap used car).

    Just another idea!
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