"Drop the Hybrid tech and all aluminum structure so it weighs ~ the same yet costs just $13 - $14,000. It won’t do 0 - 60 in 10.5 seconds as it does currently but it would do 0 - 60 in 12.5."
They used aluminum to reduce the weight further. Everything else was cut as much as possible and meet the safety requirements. If they use steel, it'll weight close to the Civic. 0-60 acceleration will be closer to 15 seconds. Passing power on highway will be lower also due to the lack of electric supercharger. Not to mention MPG hit in the City driving conditions.
___You might have missed the underlying tone to the article as it relates to many of our previous discussions You have a Civic EX that does 0 - 60 in ~ 8.8/9.8 seconds with a stick/automatic and a Civic Hybrid that does 0 - 60 in ~ 11/12.8 seconds w/ a stick/CVT. We are talking ~ 30% more acceleration at any time under any condition. The Hybrid not only costs more, it doesn’t handle as well then the already overpriced but better equipped EX (powered moonroof for one), and only pays off at 144,000 miles when paying retail MSRP for both vehicles. This does not include any finance or opportunity costs of the additional $1,440 initial outlay if you were to be foolish enough to pay MSRP for an EX. Even the slightly less powerful Civic LX outperforms the HCH under every condition and can be had for < $15K easily. As for performance, once the EX’s or LX’s VTEC comes into play, it doesn’t need any type of electrical assist. It would continually walk away from any Hybrid including the Prius, HCH, or Insight without so much as an afterthought.
___When you are speaking of generating electricity on the fly while climbing or when the pack needs to be recharged, you are not supplying a single ounce of propulsion from the pack itself. That means you are relying on the totally anemic 76 HP Atkinson-ized 1.5 L engine in the 04 Prius to provide propulsion and create electricity on the fly. Once the battery is drained in a Hybrid including the 04 Prius, the ICE of the hybrid has to generate electricity and supply forward propulsion. The 76 HP motor of the 04 Prius given all she’s got including generating electricity on the fly is about as anemic as well even worse then a 67 HP Insight motor in a 2,900 # Prius without assist and that is pathetic given the Insight engine while on the cam can only accelerate the 1,850 # Insight to 60 in 12.5 seconds with no electrical assist whatsoever.
___It appears to me that if Honda wanted to push the EX’s or LX’s hwy fuel economy, they could detune the EX or LX’s ICE (why not install a 1.5 L VTEC or simply add a taller top gear?) to match the acceleration and overall performance of the HCH and receive ~ the same fuel economy in the process. This comes without the overly expensive Hybrid drivetrain once again.
They used aluminum to reduce the weight further. Everything else was cut as much as possible and meet the safety requirements. If they use steel, it'll weight close to the Civic.
___If they dropped the Hybrid HW, they lose ~ 150 #’s. If they went to an all-steel structure, they gain ~ the same back. The Insight is not nearly the size of a Civic and wouldn’t weigh nearly as much. The Honda Civic VX with an all steel construction weighed within a few #’s of the Insight. Even the lowly 4 seat Toyota Echo 2-Door weighs just a touch over 2,000 #’s.
___The problem with removing the Hybrid drivetrain in an Insight is that the Insight’s IMA acts as a quasi balance shaft so as to remove that fuel economy robbing structure from the ICE. I don’t know how many mpg it is worth but it shouldn’t be much? The Alternator can be dealt with since I believe the VX’s would only engage when the 12 V batter reached a predetermined minimum voltage and disengage when it reached a predetermined maximum. Something like that anyway???
Since Prius can generate and supply forward propulsion at the same time, it will almost never run out of the battery, exception of being in the race track. In the Honda's case, you will run out of battery if you don't hit the brake.
Let's say, even IF the Prius run out of battery, the efficient Atkinson 76HP engine has to power both electric motor and drive the car. Prius MG1(Motor/Generator) can generate about 20KW-25KW of electricity by splitting 25HP-38HP from the ICE. MG2 can push out about 150 lbs-ft torque from 25KW of electricity! So, the car is transformed into 150 lbs-ft torque with the remaining 38 HP from the ICE(Ideal for climbing hills when torque is more important). Performance will probably be better than 1975 lbs Insight with 89 ft-lbs of torque.
Prius HSD has the ability to use the energy in the most efficient form on-the-fly where Honda hybrid design can not.
As for Civic EX, LX or any other ICE only car.. "Power and efficiency are inseparable at any time and under any circumstances. Sacrifice either; and you do not have a practical power source." - Jack Yamaguchi
The only way to escape from that law of physics is to use two power sources that shines in opposite situations of each other and open a path for energy to flow between the two. This is how HSD get out of the smaller box, into a bigger box.
Let's say, even if the Prius run out of battery, the efficient Atkinson 76HP engine has to power both electric motor and drive the car. Prius MG1(Motor/Generator) can generate about 20KW-25KW of electricity by splitting 25HP-38HP from the ICE. MG2 can push out about 150 lbs-ft torque from 25KW of electricity! So, the car is transformed into 150 lbs-ft torque with the remaining 38 HP from the ICE(Ideal for climbing hills when torque is more important).
___You might be missing the point here? It matters when the Prius runs out of electrical power supplied from the pack. The “climbing the hill while charging” scenario is one of them. That means the pack is not supplying the power for propulsion in any way shape or form. When that happens, you have the ICE supplying the propulsion irregardless if it’s from the ICE directly or from the second MG Set’s electricity on the fly. It is still only worth 76 HP MAXMUM not including what the pack is being recharged with. With that entire 76 HP at the 04 Prius’ disposal (probably less if it is re-supplying the pack with electrical power) comes the atrocious ability to accelerate any automobile let alone one that weighs 2,900 #’s. We have already been through the terrible 0 - 30 times of the 04 Prius using all of its wonderful 295 Ft.-lb’s of torque available from 0 - 1,200 RPM with a fully charged pack. You do remember the ~ 3.4 seconds to 30 mph with a fully charged pack, right? Take away the packs propulsion ability and watch this kind of number soar! The non-hybrid Civic EX in the article always has 127 HP available no matter if it’s climbing a mountain or dashing around on the highway or city. It is simply available at all times no matter what condition it is in.
___As for the VX’s weight, the Toyota Echo is larger then the Honda Insight and it meets today’s safety requirements? The Insight with the loss of all of the Hybrid drivetrain components using an all steel constructed frame and body panels that are not plastic already would weigh less then 2,000 #’s. This is no where near the ~ 2,450 - 2,650 #’s of a Civic of various trims. Over the last 10 years, the automobile industry has improved its ability to pack more HW and yet keep an automobiles weight close to the same or even less in some cases If there was a way to install a balance shaft without robbing the smaller ICE of its barely adequate acceleration rates without assist, there is really no need for the Hybrid drivetrain nor the all aluminum and exotic material structure for the $5 - $7K or more extra cost. Again, this would be strictly for a commuter automobile as I use it for myself.
"The non-hybrid Civic EX in the article always has 127 HP available no matter if it’s climbing a mountain or dashing around on the highway or city.
Prius is faster than 2.4 liter Camry in 30MPH-50MPH acceleration. So, Prius will leave Civic EX behind for sure. Prius' 76HP engine can get you top speed of 100MPH. How much more power and speed do you need? Sure we all like to have more.
Prius is faster than 2.4 liter Camry in 30MPH-50MPH acceleration. So, Prius will leave Civic EX behind for sure. 76HP Prius has top speed of 100MPH. How much more power and speed do you need? Sure we all like to have more.
___That is about the only item I have ever read where the 04 Prius can beat a comparable std. ICE and that isn’t saying much. This factoid was also supplied by TMC and they didn’t give the specifics as to which year Camry this was, did they? The latest Camry 4 banger has 157 HP/162 Ft.-lb’s of torque driving 3,100 # automobile. The 127 HP EX’s ICE would knock the hell out of the 4 banger Camry because the weight of the Civic is so much less (~ 2,600 #’s w/ a stick). It would also leave the 04 Prius in the dust in any and all conditions as well.
___I am a big fan of the 4 banger Camry given its rather surprising highway fuel economy in such a large and comfortable automobile. We were actually within a few days of purchasing a loaded XLE w/ the 4 early last year until the wife decided on the MDX ...
> Once the battery is drained in a Hybrid including the > 04 Prius, the ICE of the hybrid has to generate electricity > and supply forward propulsion. The 76 HP motor of the 04 > Prius given all she’s got including generating electricity > on the fly is about as anemic as
You either don't understand how the system works or are intentionally misrepresenting it.
When climbing a hill, the engine usually recharges the battery-pack. If pushed harder, some of the electricity is routed to the motor. If pushed even harder, the motor uses all of it. If pushed beyond even that, the battery-pack is drawn from.
So it is extremely rare for the battery-pack to unable to supply electricity, as you imply.
And in my 70,000 miles of driving Prius, I certainly haven't ever come close to that situation. It just isn't a realistic scenario.
>>Since when must a vehicle fulfill every possible need?
>>That's the kind of mindset that got us into the monster-sized SUV mess in the first place.
>>Owning a massive vehicle for the rare chance that you might actually need that much internal space or towing power is quite a waste.
Thank you for acknowledging that the Prius isn't big enough for family tasks. Or at least, that is how I interpret your attempt to make my need for a family sized car into some kind of monster SUV.
I am not talking about an large SUV or huge vehicle, just something that can handle the daily commute and still go on vacations with my family of four.
It would appear that you would prefer that I change my needs to suit the size of the Prius. Sorry, can't be done. Nice commuter, but too small for the primary family car.
saying that a Prius has 16 cubic feet of cargo space. I've owned a few cars with about 16 cubic feet of cargo space (1980 Malibu, 1982 Cutlass Supreme, 1986 Monte Carlo, 1989 Gran Fury), and just from eyeballing it, the Prius's cargo area is considerably smaller than any of those cars. Unless maybe they're counting cargo area with the back seats down? But then you either have a 4-passenger car with limited trunk space, or a 2-passenger car with a decent trunk. So which is it?
And yeah, I know about the storage compartment under the trunk!
Now don't get me wrong, I'm actually impressed wtih the Prius. A buddy of mine has one, and I've ridden in it a couple of times. I'd say it's probably the most useable of the hybrids currently out there now. A Hybrid Civic is still a Civic, and a Civic is too cramped for me. And an Insight is just too limited in versatility. I'd definitely say the Prius is a good alternative to cars the size of the Neon, Cavalier, and Focus. EPA be damned, the thing just doesn't "feel" like a mid-sized car to me! They're getting there, though.
Ah, but is the space waterproof with a picnic table over it? (CR-V has this, just joking - these are two very different vehicles for different purposes)
Seriously, the calculated volume includes everything up to the roofline. I suspect your 1980's cars had a larger floor area and smaller height. It still adds up to 16 CU feet, but is quite different in the size of the floor space.
No offense meant, I just don't like being lumped in with the monster SUV crowd. I have to deal with inconsiderate monster drivers daily. Honestly, people think just because they have 6000 lbs of vehicle under them, they own the road...
What is really interesting is that the CR-V interior size is actually comparable (or larger) in many dimensions (rear seat legroom, cargo room) than many larger SUVs that get, literally, 10 MPG less than the Honda. Of course, the Honda isn't as luxurious as the other models, or as expensive.
a lot of those bigger SUV's aren't as big inside as you might think. And I have yet to find an SUV with a back seat that's as comfortable as the back seat on a decent mid- or full-sized car. They're usually too flat and thinly padded (even if they're leather), and since they're designed to be removeable or fold-able, compromises in comfort are usually made in the name of versatility.
I sat in a new Durango when I first saw one at the dealership. It was nice up front, but I found the back seat to be almost uninhabitable. And I'm just talking the middle row here, not all the way in back!
The Prius does probably have some SUV's whipped, when it comes to back seat comfort!
I have never really understood exactly what makes the Civic HX so efficient that it gets, like, 38/44 EPA rating. It has 117 hp, which is only 10 off the other VTEC Civic, the EX. And the mileage is about 20% better. In the debate of ICE versus hybrid, perhaps this is a point to consider?
I mean, why not just HX-ize all the ICE Honda offerings and improve the fleet fuel economy instantly by 20%? This seems a much simpler approach to fuel savings than the complexity of hybrids, on the face of it. And it can't even be that expensive, as the HX actually sells for LESS than the EX.
Maybe then Honda could license the HX technology to the domestics, and they could "HX-ize" their V-8s, even the Hemi, for a nationwide 20% fuel economy increase almost overnight! :-P
Perhaps someone could enlighten me as to exactly what it is that enables the HX to get such good mileage...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Well, HX is lighter than EX in weight. HX also has a lean burn engine, I believe. Lean burn engines suffer from some delay in the power it outputs. Just a trade-off in a small box of ICE only car design.
they do something like changing the gearing in the tranny and differential, and put on smaller, lower-resistance tires? Just taking wild stabs here. Does the HX have air conditioning?
has A/C, and as far as I know it has the same body construction as the rest of the Civic gang. It has the same engine size too. LRR tires couldn't possibly account for all that difference, and besides, I was not aware it used different tires.
Ford is pulling more power, better gas mileage, and much better emissions out of its PZEV Focus this year, despite its having a larger engine. Some of that has to do with expensive extra cats installed closer to the engine, but the larger point here is that the domestics are really doing very little to try and improve emissions and fuel economy. Yet when they try, they make some good advances.
I think the reason they don't most of the time is because it is hard to sell to consumers. Look at the Nissan Sentra CA - one of the cleanest and most efficient cars out there, ICE-only, finally discontinued for lack of sales.
Look how hard Toyota has tried to paint itself as the "green company". They had to do it to sell those Priuses - put enough hype out there and you will get people interested. But in the process it has drawn fire from people who say "green? Look at all those huge trucks it sells!". Meanwhile, the domestics spend a lot less selling horsepower, which sells itself to Americans.
This is going to be another one of those "define the chore" type of threads. What does "winning" really mean here? Just strictly sales and nothing else? If so, you can't credit Prius with Toyota's advancing stand in global sales. It makes up a tiny fraction. Credit all those SUVs (poor fuel economy and midpack emissions, for the most part) and Camrys (midpack fuel economy and emissions) instead.
Or is it something else, like saving the environment for our grandkids or something? Toyota might be advancing alt-fuel and gas-saving power technologies a little faster than some others, but there is certainly no clear winner there.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I'm not sure the lean burn engines can meet newer (and upcoming) emissions requirements.
Let's see how the Focus PZEV sells. PZEV models have been hit or miss. Most people don't even realize there is a PZEV Outback in Cali and will be soon in NE states.
...either 0.2 or 0.3 "no pollution". What you're saying is that if we drove a Prius for 10 billion years than the air of the world would be noticeably cleaner than if we drove the Focus.
And the Focus ZTS with the 2.3L is only $600 more than the SE with the 2.0L, and for that you get 15 more horses, a better stereo, and bigger wheels. I can swallow that.
and all the 2.3-equipped Focuses nationwide are built exactly the same. The only reason they aren't all certified PZEV is because of the high-sulfur gas in other states. So they will all be PZEV come 2006, without changing a thing!
how much is the "mpg penalty" for the PZEV Focus? why, none at all! The 2.3 is rated at 25/33, while the 2.0 DOHC is rated at 25/32. Now, of course, those numbers are nowhere near the real-world numbers from any of the current hybrids, which is maybe what john meant by that...but you can get a pretty nice 145hp PZEV Focus for about $15K...
...and the Nissan Sentra CA did even better, and so does the Civic HX.
All the 4-cyl automatic Camrys and Accords in California now are PZEV, and according to the window stickers have emissions (smog-forming, that is) LESS than Prius. Of course, again, the gas mileage is way down compared to the hybrids. But I will bet people don't even know they are buying PZEV in those cases. Those cars have the exact same power ratings as their non-PZEV predecessors.
I think it's possible that if they work hard on the technology that shuts down part of the engine when it is not under load, they might approach hybrid fuel economy with an ICE-only set-up. But at the same time I think there is a big unknown in terms of just how much more fuel efficiency can easily be gained from hybrid technology. I mean, it is in its infancy and all...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I went later and checked the website...apparently all the Foci sold here now (California) have the PZEV 2.3, which is why I had only seen wagons with the larger engine.
It's a good thing anyway - the 2.0 is an iron block that is down 10% on power yet manages to have worse fuel economy? I would opt for the 2.3. I can't believe it took this long for Ford to have an all-aluminum engine for the Focus...
The Focus is a popular model....if they could include cylinder shutdown technology, all for $20K or less, they might give Prius a run for its money. But unfortunately it is GM, not Ford, that is working so diligently on cylinder shutdown right now.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
isn't chrysler actually going to have that on the market sooner with the 300C shutting down half the cylinders while cruising, or am I thinking of something else?
No, you're right. The Hemi (on topic! :-) in the 300C can shut down half the cylinders. MPG is still only okay though, but maybe for a V8 that's pretty good.
The credit should go to the aluminum engine, not the way they market it as "PZEV engine with more power".
The use of aluminum enables the engine to get larger(0.3L more) and weight a bit less. Lower fuel consumption is probably due to the use of VVT(finally!). Bringing up to speed with the yesterday technology is how they got more power. There is no connection between PZEV and more power like Ford wants you to associate. Let's see if the next gen Focus engine can make more power, lighter and cleaner.
PZEV was achieved by adding pain killers(Catalysts) to relief the symptom(Pollution). Why not kill two birds with one stone by just attacking the cause(burn less fuel) to reduce emission? Yes, they did it with hybrids already.
Adding more and more catalysts reduces power, adds weight and costs more. The concept is noting more than collecting more garbage from "more garbage in, more garbage out". A short term solution.
___Except the PZEV based Ford Focus is not only 20 - 40% faster to 60, 100, and the quarter then an 04 Prius, it handles much better and is just as clean! The 2.3 didn’t lose anything with the PZEV HW attached. I own the 2.3 in the 03 Ranger XLT albeit not the exact same engine given it has no PZEV HW unfortunately but the following might interest you?
Ford Focus PZEV: 2.3 L * 144 HP @ 5750 RPM * 149 Ft.-Lb’s @ 4200 RPM Ford Ranger XLT: 2.3 L * 143HP @ 5250 RPM * 154 Ft.-Lb’s @ 3750 RPM
Same bore and stroke and just a touch different compression ratios Do you think they are entirely different blocks?
___On another note, I had a very nice present at the gas station tonight when filling up the non-Hybrid std. ICE based 03 Corolla LE w/ an Auto with the following round trip notes:
___I took my son back to school at the U of I in Champaign, IL. yesterday. I was fighting an ~ 10 mph headwind in 42 - 50 degree F temperatures with on again off again sleet and rain for ~ ¾ of the trip. To finish, I drove from Champaign to work (42 - 44 degrees w/ no wind) and then back home again in 52 - 62 degree F temperatures w/ an ~ 5 mph wind from the side this afternoon. This gave me a lifetime high of 46.0 mpg over 376.3 miles on just 7.984 gallons.
___The 175 miles from the Speedway in Gurnee, IL to his apartment in Champaign took exactly 3 hours and 1 minute including the stop and go drive through Gurnee, IL to Rt. 41, the 3 or 4 lights I hit on Rt. 41, the non-congested traffic from the Edens (I-94 here in Chicago) through the heart of Chicago on the Kennedy and Dan Ryan out to I57, and I57 the rest of the way to I74 and then into Champaign. Add another 7 or so lights and stop signs I hit in Champaign proper before arriving at his apartment late last night and I had a decent trip time and great mileage.
___In other words, do you really feel the need to spend $20,000 - $26,000 + on a Hybrid when a std. ICE costing upwards of $5 - $12,000 less will do and do it faster in terms of 0 - 60 and such? It is to bad Toyota won’t include the minimalist $100 - $300 worth of HW needed to make the Echo a PZEV (only a LEV currently) or the Corolla a PZEV (only a ULEV currently) to make it as clean as the 04 Prius? It is actually too bad my Ranger XLT didn’t have the PZEV based HW to make is as clean as the 04 Ford Focus or the 04 Toyota Prius :-(
I continue to be in awe of your gas mileage in that corolla, and I applaud you. However I have a question: do you mostly find yourself driving below the speed limit, at the speed limit, or above it? Assuming traffic will allow you to reach it, of course. Oh yeah, and do you ever find yourself in heavy traffic? Oh double yeah, and how do you get such exact meteorological observations from inside your car as wind speed and direction?
I would imagine real-world Prius gas mileage would be well into the 50s for folks driving consistently below the speed limit, is the reason I ask.
My point was never that Ford is a superpower in clean tech, but rather that they have finally entered the 1990s with VVT and all-aluminum engines, two things we can reasonably expect all carmakers to have their own versions of, if not now, then very soon. So that is not revolutionary. And here we have a car of about the same profile and physical size, with more power and cleaner smog-forming emissions, making high 20s for combined fuel economy. If it had a 4-3-2 cylinder shutdown system, and fuel economy jumped 20% or so, it would provide great promise for what ICE-only setups could accomplish.
BUT, if the 300C hemi 8-6-4 is only rated at low 20s combined, then maybe the promise still isn't enough. And who will be first to achieve 100 mpg combined in a mass produced car? Hybrid or diesel? Or ICE?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Impressive, the 2.3l is a no-brainer. CR has even said the reliability of the Focus has improved, and that it's the most reliable Ford out there.
Hybrid fans should not put down this engine, it's significant progress and even if hybrids take a 10% market share, there's the other 90% to worry about.
sorry, I didn't know that...I was just assuming the post above talking about how it had just been introduced to this engine was correct. However, there are two 2.0L engines right now for Focus, including a 110hp SOHC - does that one also have VVT?
The new PZEV Focus is finally an impressive Ford, four years after launch, and looking at it in that light, perhaps it is even OK we will not get the new version available in Europe this year...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Right now the U.S. Focus is all over the map on motors with
1. the 2.0L SPI (old escort motor) that is SOHC, not VVT equiped 2. the 2.0L DOHC zetec (with VVT on the intake side) motor 3. the 2.0L SVT version of the zetec that is fully VVT equiped. 4. the new duratec 2.3L 4cyl (which I think is being sold in PZEV versions in all states now?)
"(which I think is being sold in PZEV versions in all states now?)"
yes, it is. That part I just read. Once the gas is low-sulfur everywhere, it will be PZEV-performing in all 50 states as well. (I would say PZEV-rated, except that PZEV is a CARB California-emissions rating, so not applicable in the rest of the states).
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
That's the problem with any fanatical group - they're not happy even if you meet them most of the way. You would think they would applaud the PZEV Focus, but it isn't good enough because it doesn't contain the super-secret tech that Detroit has hidden to make them get 70 MPG. And I'm not just singling out the environmental left - the NRA and several other groups are guilty of this too.
except that more power for less emissions without impacting fuel economy IS an improvement. just not the one you specifically want. Probably more of what the market wants though.
I was responding to how Ford market Focus PZEV. Don't get me wrong. Anything that reduces emission is good, especially in NYC where I live near the highway service road.
Dunno, I saw +1mpg highway, for slightly better range. And I certainly won't ignore the HP and torque improvements. Emissions gains are icing on the cake.
Both are required. Simply fulfilling one doesn't cut it, you can't just ignore the importance of the other. Think of it as fighting a war on two fronts. Only focusing on one means you will be conquered by the other. You must defend both to win.
Comments
They used aluminum to reduce the weight further. Everything else was cut as much as possible and meet the safety requirements. If they use steel, it'll weight close to the Civic. 0-60 acceleration will be closer to 15 seconds. Passing power on highway will be lower also due to the lack of electric supercharger. Not to mention MPG hit in the City driving conditions.
Dennis
___You might have missed the underlying tone to the article as it relates to many of our previous discussions You have a Civic EX that does 0 - 60 in ~ 8.8/9.8 seconds with a stick/automatic and a Civic Hybrid that does 0 - 60 in ~ 11/12.8 seconds w/ a stick/CVT. We are talking ~ 30% more acceleration at any time under any condition. The Hybrid not only costs more, it doesn’t handle as well then the already overpriced but better equipped EX (powered moonroof for one), and only pays off at 144,000 miles when paying retail MSRP for both vehicles. This does not include any finance or opportunity costs of the additional $1,440 initial outlay if you were to be foolish enough to pay MSRP for an EX. Even the slightly less powerful Civic LX outperforms the HCH under every condition and can be had for < $15K easily. As for performance, once the EX’s or LX’s VTEC comes into play, it doesn’t need any type of electrical assist. It would continually walk away from any Hybrid including the Prius, HCH, or Insight without so much as an afterthought.
___When you are speaking of generating electricity on the fly while climbing or when the pack needs to be recharged, you are not supplying a single ounce of propulsion from the pack itself. That means you are relying on the totally anemic 76 HP Atkinson-ized 1.5 L engine in the 04 Prius to provide propulsion and create electricity on the fly. Once the battery is drained in a Hybrid including the 04 Prius, the ICE of the hybrid has to generate electricity and supply forward propulsion. The 76 HP motor of the 04 Prius given all she’s got including generating electricity on the fly is about as anemic as well even worse then a 67 HP Insight motor in a 2,900 # Prius without assist and that is pathetic given the Insight engine while on the cam can only accelerate the 1,850 # Insight to 60 in 12.5 seconds with no electrical assist whatsoever.
___It appears to me that if Honda wanted to push the EX’s or LX’s hwy fuel economy, they could detune the EX or LX’s ICE (why not install a 1.5 L VTEC or simply add a taller top gear?) to match the acceleration and overall performance of the HCH and receive ~ the same fuel economy in the process. This comes without the overly expensive Hybrid drivetrain once again.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
They used aluminum to reduce the weight further. Everything else was cut as much as possible and meet the safety requirements. If they use steel, it'll weight close to the Civic.
___If they dropped the Hybrid HW, they lose ~ 150 #’s. If they went to an all-steel structure, they gain ~ the same back. The Insight is not nearly the size of a Civic and wouldn’t weigh nearly as much. The Honda Civic VX with an all steel construction weighed within a few #’s of the Insight. Even the lowly 4 seat Toyota Echo 2-Door weighs just a touch over 2,000 #’s.
___The problem with removing the Hybrid drivetrain in an Insight is that the Insight’s IMA acts as a quasi balance shaft so as to remove that fuel economy robbing structure from the ICE. I don’t know how many mpg it is worth but it shouldn’t be much? The Alternator can be dealt with since I believe the VX’s would only engage when the 12 V batter reached a predetermined minimum voltage and disengage when it reached a predetermined maximum. Something like that anyway???
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Let's say, even IF the Prius run out of battery, the efficient Atkinson 76HP engine has to power both electric motor and drive the car. Prius MG1(Motor/Generator) can generate about 20KW-25KW of electricity by splitting 25HP-38HP from the ICE. MG2 can push out about 150 lbs-ft torque from 25KW of electricity! So, the car is transformed into 150 lbs-ft torque with the remaining 38 HP from the ICE(Ideal for climbing hills when torque is more important). Performance will probably be better than 1975 lbs Insight with 89 ft-lbs of torque.
Prius HSD has the ability to use the energy in the most efficient form on-the-fly where Honda hybrid design can not.
As for Civic EX, LX or any other ICE only car..
"Power and efficiency are inseparable at any time and under any circumstances. Sacrifice either; and you do not have a practical power source." - Jack Yamaguchi
The only way to escape from that law of physics is to use two power sources that shines in opposite situations of each other and open a path for energy to flow between the two. This is how HSD get out of the smaller box, into a bigger box.
Dennis
1993 Honda Civic VX did not have to meet strict safety standards of today.
Dennis
Let's say, even if the Prius run out of battery, the efficient Atkinson 76HP engine has to power both electric motor and drive the car. Prius MG1(Motor/Generator) can generate about 20KW-25KW of electricity by splitting 25HP-38HP from the ICE. MG2 can push out about 150 lbs-ft torque from 25KW of electricity! So, the car is transformed into 150 lbs-ft torque with the remaining 38 HP from the ICE(Ideal for climbing hills when torque is more important).
___You might be missing the point here? It matters when the Prius runs out of electrical power supplied from the pack. The “climbing the hill while charging” scenario is one of them. That means the pack is not supplying the power for propulsion in any way shape or form. When that happens, you have the ICE supplying the propulsion irregardless if it’s from the ICE directly or from the second MG Set’s electricity on the fly. It is still only worth 76 HP MAXMUM not including what the pack is being recharged with. With that entire 76 HP at the 04 Prius’ disposal (probably less if it is re-supplying the pack with electrical power) comes the atrocious ability to accelerate any automobile let alone one that weighs 2,900 #’s. We have already been through the terrible 0 - 30 times of the 04 Prius using all of its wonderful 295 Ft.-lb’s of torque available from 0 - 1,200 RPM with a fully charged pack. You do remember the ~ 3.4 seconds to 30 mph with a fully charged pack, right? Take away the packs propulsion ability and watch this kind of number soar! The non-hybrid Civic EX in the article always has 127 HP available no matter if it’s climbing a mountain or dashing around on the highway or city. It is simply available at all times no matter what condition it is in.
___As for the VX’s weight, the Toyota Echo is larger then the Honda Insight and it meets today’s safety requirements? The Insight with the loss of all of the Hybrid drivetrain components using an all steel constructed frame and body panels that are not plastic already would weigh less then 2,000 #’s. This is no where near the ~ 2,450 - 2,650 #’s of a Civic of various trims. Over the last 10 years, the automobile industry has improved its ability to pack more HW and yet keep an automobiles weight close to the same or even less in some cases If there was a way to install a balance shaft without robbing the smaller ICE of its barely adequate acceleration rates without assist, there is really no need for the Hybrid drivetrain nor the all aluminum and exotic material structure for the $5 - $7K or more extra cost. Again, this would be strictly for a commuter automobile as I use it for myself.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Prius is faster than 2.4 liter Camry in 30MPH-50MPH acceleration. So, Prius will leave Civic EX behind for sure. Prius' 76HP engine can get you top speed of 100MPH. How much more power and speed do you need? Sure we all like to have more.
The point is not the power but how you use it!
Dennis
Prius is faster than 2.4 liter Camry in 30MPH-50MPH acceleration. So, Prius will leave Civic EX behind for sure. 76HP Prius has top speed of 100MPH. How much more power and speed do you need? Sure we all like to have more.
___That is about the only item I have ever read where the 04 Prius can beat a comparable std. ICE and that isn’t saying much. This factoid was also supplied by TMC and they didn’t give the specifics as to which year Camry this was, did they? The latest Camry 4 banger has 157 HP/162 Ft.-lb’s of torque driving 3,100 # automobile. The 127 HP EX’s ICE would knock the hell out of the 4 banger Camry because the weight of the Civic is so much less (~ 2,600 #’s w/ a stick). It would also leave the 04 Prius in the dust in any and all conditions as well.
___I am a big fan of the 4 banger Camry given its rather surprising highway fuel economy in such a large and comfortable automobile. We were actually within a few days of purchasing a loaded XLE w/ the 4 early last year until the wife decided on the MDX ...
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
> 04 Prius, the ICE of the hybrid has to generate electricity
> and supply forward propulsion. The 76 HP motor of the 04
> Prius given all she’s got including generating electricity
> on the fly is about as anemic as
You either don't understand how the system works or are intentionally misrepresenting it.
When climbing a hill, the engine usually recharges the battery-pack. If pushed harder, some of the electricity is routed to the motor. If pushed even harder, the motor uses all of it. If pushed beyond even that, the battery-pack is drawn from.
So it is extremely rare for the battery-pack to unable to supply electricity, as you imply.
And in my 70,000 miles of driving Prius, I certainly haven't ever come close to that situation. It just isn't a realistic scenario.
JOHN
>>That's the kind of mindset that got us into the monster-sized SUV mess in the first place.
>>Owning a massive vehicle for the rare chance that you might actually need that much internal space or towing power is quite a waste.
Thank you for acknowledging that the Prius isn't big enough for family tasks. Or at least, that is how I interpret your attempt to make my need for a family sized car into some kind of monster SUV.
I am not talking about an large SUV or huge vehicle, just something that can handle the daily commute and still go on vacations with my family of four.
It would appear that you would prefer that I change my needs to suit the size of the Prius. Sorry, can't be done. Nice commuter, but too small for the primary family car.
And yeah, I know about the storage compartment under the trunk!
Now don't get me wrong, I'm actually impressed wtih the Prius. A buddy of mine has one, and I've ridden in it a couple of times. I'd say it's probably the most useable of the hybrids currently out there now. A Hybrid Civic is still a Civic, and a Civic is too cramped for me. And an Insight is just too limited in versatility. I'd definitely say the Prius is a good alternative to cars the size of the Neon, Cavalier, and Focus. EPA be damned, the thing just doesn't "feel" like a mid-sized car to me! They're getting there, though.
Seriously, the calculated volume includes everything up to the roofline. I suspect your 1980's cars had a larger floor area and smaller height. It still adds up to 16 CU feet, but is quite different in the size of the floor space.
JOHN
JOHN
What is really interesting is that the CR-V interior size is actually comparable (or larger) in many dimensions (rear seat legroom, cargo room) than many larger SUVs that get, literally, 10 MPG less than the Honda. Of course, the Honda isn't as luxurious as the other models, or as expensive.
I sat in a new Durango when I first saw one at the dealership. It was nice up front, but I found the back seat to be almost uninhabitable. And I'm just talking the middle row here, not all the way in back!
The Prius does probably have some SUV's whipped, when it comes to back seat comfort!
I have never really understood exactly what makes the Civic HX so efficient that it gets, like, 38/44 EPA rating. It has 117 hp, which is only 10 off the other VTEC Civic, the EX. And the mileage is about 20% better. In the debate of ICE versus hybrid, perhaps this is a point to consider?
I mean, why not just HX-ize all the ICE Honda offerings and improve the fleet fuel economy instantly by 20%? This seems a much simpler approach to fuel savings than the complexity of hybrids, on the face of it. And it can't even be that expensive, as the HX actually sells for LESS than the EX.
Maybe then Honda could license the HX technology to the domestics, and they could "HX-ize" their V-8s, even the Hemi, for a nationwide 20% fuel economy increase almost overnight! :-P
Perhaps someone could enlighten me as to exactly what it is that enables the HX to get such good mileage...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Dennis
Ford is pulling more power, better gas mileage, and much better emissions out of its PZEV Focus this year, despite its having a larger engine. Some of that has to do with expensive extra cats installed closer to the engine, but the larger point here is that the domestics are really doing very little to try and improve emissions and fuel economy. Yet when they try, they make some good advances.
I think the reason they don't most of the time is because it is hard to sell to consumers. Look at the Nissan Sentra CA - one of the cleanest and most efficient cars out there, ICE-only, finally discontinued for lack of sales.
Look how hard Toyota has tried to paint itself as the "green company". They had to do it to sell those Priuses - put enough hype out there and you will get people interested. But in the process it has drawn fire from people who say "green? Look at all those huge trucks it sells!". Meanwhile, the domestics spend a lot less selling horsepower, which sells itself to Americans.
This is going to be another one of those "define the chore" type of threads. What does "winning" really mean here? Just strictly sales and nothing else? If so, you can't credit Prius with Toyota's advancing stand in global sales. It makes up a tiny fraction. Credit all those SUVs (poor fuel economy and midpack emissions, for the most part) and Camrys (midpack fuel economy and emissions) instead.
Or is it something else, like saving the environment for our grandkids or something? Toyota might be advancing alt-fuel and gas-saving power technologies a little faster than some others, but there is certainly no clear winner there.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Let's see how the Focus PZEV sells. PZEV models have been hit or miss. Most people don't even realize there is a PZEV Outback in Cali and will be soon in NE states.
-juice
"P" in PZEV means partial, there is still pollution.
0.2 is what Focus earns for emission credit.
0.3 is what Prius earns for emission credit.
JOHN
Dennis
More power maybe, but with more emissions and fuel consumption as trade-offs.
Lighter? I doubt it would be significant, if at all.
Cheaper? Sure, let's build to cost, the worst possible engine. That's what consumers want.
-juice
And the Focus ZTS with the 2.3L is only $600 more than the SE with the 2.0L, and for that you get 15 more horses, a better stereo, and bigger wheels. I can swallow that.
Easily worth the price for the extra horsepower alone, PZEV is just a nice bonus.
-juice
> PZEV is just a nice bonus.
Until you notice that MPG penalty.
JOHN
and all the 2.3-equipped Focuses nationwide are built exactly the same. The only reason they aren't all certified PZEV is because of the high-sulfur gas in other states. So they will all be PZEV come 2006, without changing a thing!
how much is the "mpg penalty" for the PZEV Focus? why, none at all! The 2.3 is rated at 25/33, while the 2.0 DOHC is rated at 25/32. Now, of course, those numbers are nowhere near the real-world numbers from any of the current hybrids, which is maybe what john meant by that...but you can get a pretty nice 145hp PZEV Focus for about $15K...
...and the Nissan Sentra CA did even better, and so does the Civic HX.
All the 4-cyl automatic Camrys and Accords in California now are PZEV, and according to the window stickers have emissions (smog-forming, that is) LESS than Prius. Of course, again, the gas mileage is way down compared to the hybrids. But I will bet people don't even know they are buying PZEV in those cases. Those cars have the exact same power ratings as their non-PZEV predecessors.
I think it's possible that if they work hard on the technology that shuts down part of the engine when it is not under load, they might approach hybrid fuel economy with an ICE-only set-up. But at the same time I think there is a big unknown in terms of just how much more fuel efficiency can easily be gained from hybrid technology. I mean, it is in its infancy and all...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
It's a good thing anyway - the 2.0 is an iron block that is down 10% on power yet manages to have worse fuel economy? I would opt for the 2.3. I can't believe it took this long for Ford to have an all-aluminum engine for the Focus...
The Focus is a popular model....if they could include cylinder shutdown technology, all for $20K or less, they might give Prius a run for its money. But unfortunately it is GM, not Ford, that is working so diligently on cylinder shutdown right now.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The use of aluminum enables the engine to get larger(0.3L more) and weight a bit less. Lower fuel consumption is probably due to the use of VVT(finally!). Bringing up to speed with the yesterday technology is how they got more power. There is no connection between PZEV and more power like Ford wants you to associate. Let's see if the next gen Focus engine can make more power, lighter and cleaner.
PZEV was achieved by adding pain killers(Catalysts) to relief the symptom(Pollution). Why not kill two birds with one stone by just attacking the cause(burn less fuel) to reduce emission? Yes, they did it with hybrids already.
Adding more and more catalysts reduces power, adds weight and costs more. The concept is noting more than collecting more garbage from "more garbage in, more garbage out". A short term solution.
That's my view on it.
Dennis
___Except the PZEV based Ford Focus is not only 20 - 40% faster to 60, 100, and the quarter then an 04 Prius, it handles much better and is just as clean! The 2.3 didn’t lose anything with the PZEV HW attached. I own the 2.3 in the 03 Ranger XLT albeit not the exact same engine given it has no PZEV HW unfortunately but the following might interest you?
http://www.fordvehicles.com/Cars/focus/features/specperformance/ http://www.fordvehicles.com/Trucks/ranger/features/specperformanc- e/
Ford Focus PZEV: 2.3 L * 144 HP @ 5750 RPM * 149 Ft.-Lb’s @ 4200 RPM
Ford Ranger XLT: 2.3 L * 143HP @ 5250 RPM * 154 Ft.-Lb’s @ 3750 RPM
Same bore and stroke and just a touch different compression ratios Do you think they are entirely different blocks?
___On another note, I had a very nice present at the gas station tonight when filling up the non-Hybrid std. ICE based 03 Corolla LE w/ an Auto with the following round trip notes:
___I took my son back to school at the U of I in Champaign, IL. yesterday. I was fighting an ~ 10 mph headwind in 42 - 50 degree F temperatures with on again off again sleet and rain for ~ ¾ of the trip. To finish, I drove from Champaign to work (42 - 44 degrees w/ no wind) and then back home again in 52 - 62 degree F temperatures w/ an ~ 5 mph wind from the side this afternoon. This gave me a lifetime high of 46.0 mpg over 376.3 miles on just 7.984 gallons.
___The 175 miles from the Speedway in Gurnee, IL to his apartment in Champaign took exactly 3 hours and 1 minute including the stop and go drive through Gurnee, IL to Rt. 41, the 3 or 4 lights I hit on Rt. 41, the non-congested traffic from the Edens (I-94 here in Chicago) through the heart of Chicago on the Kennedy and Dan Ryan out to I57, and I57 the rest of the way to I74 and then into Champaign. Add another 7 or so lights and stop signs I hit in Champaign proper before arriving at his apartment late last night and I had a decent trip time and great mileage.
___In other words, do you really feel the need to spend $20,000 - $26,000 + on a Hybrid when a std. ICE costing upwards of $5 - $12,000 less will do and do it faster in terms of 0 - 60 and such? It is to bad Toyota won’t include the minimalist $100 - $300 worth of HW needed to make the Echo a PZEV (only a LEV currently) or the Corolla a PZEV (only a ULEV currently) to make it as clean as the 04 Prius? It is actually too bad my Ranger XLT didn’t have the PZEV based HW to make is as clean as the 04 Ford Focus or the 04 Toyota Prius :-(
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
I would imagine real-world Prius gas mileage would be well into the 50s for folks driving consistently below the speed limit, is the reason I ask.
My point was never that Ford is a superpower in clean tech, but rather that they have finally entered the 1990s with VVT and all-aluminum engines, two things we can reasonably expect all carmakers to have their own versions of, if not now, then very soon. So that is not revolutionary. And here we have a car of about the same profile and physical size, with more power and cleaner smog-forming emissions, making high 20s for combined fuel economy. If it had a 4-3-2 cylinder shutdown system, and fuel economy jumped 20% or so, it would provide great promise for what ICE-only setups could accomplish.
BUT, if the 300C hemi 8-6-4 is only rated at low 20s combined, then maybe the promise still isn't enough. And who will be first to achieve 100 mpg combined in a mass produced car? Hybrid or diesel? Or ICE?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Hybrid fans should not put down this engine, it's significant progress and even if hybrids take a 10% market share, there's the other 90% to worry about.
PZEVs, I say bring 'em on!
-juice
The new PZEV Focus is finally an impressive Ford, four years after launch, and looking at it in that light, perhaps it is even OK we will not get the new version available in Europe this year...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
1. the 2.0L SPI (old escort motor) that is SOHC, not VVT equiped
2. the 2.0L DOHC zetec (with VVT on the intake side) motor
3. the 2.0L SVT version of the zetec that is fully VVT equiped.
4. the new duratec 2.3L 4cyl (which I think is being sold in PZEV versions in all states now?)
yes, it is. That part I just read. Once the gas is low-sulfur everywhere, it will be PZEV-performing in all 50 states as well. (I would say PZEV-rated, except that PZEV is a CARB California-emissions rating, so not applicable in the rest of the states).
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
ZERO percent increase in fuel economy is not most of the way.
No improvement whatsoever is unacceptable.
Also, keep in mind that PZEV is not ZEV. That compromise has been deemed acceptable.
JOHN
Dennis
-juice
Maybe someday I will be more enthusiastic about hybrids, but now just isn't that time.
- Reduce Consumption
Both are required. Simply fulfilling one doesn't cut it, you can't just ignore the importance of the other. Think of it as fighting a war on two fronts. Only focusing on one means you will be conquered by the other. You must defend both to win.
JOHN