>>Single family homes, air conditioning in homes and commercial spaces, shipping, electrical production, street lighting, manufacturing, etc. in the US all burn large quantities of fossil fuels and pollute far more than automobiles.<<
Translation: The American dream should now be living in high density housing (think public projects), without air conditioning (try that in Phoenix at 110 degrees), without any electricity (don't get that one), and hope there is no crime - because there are no street lights. No thanks.
The switch must be to alternative fuels, not to our lifestyles, or the people simply won't vote for it. This is the American way. It has been responsible for some of the best (and worst) advances in history.
As consumers, we should set the requirements and let industry provide the products. A lot of what I read in these forums is how we should change our driving styles, vehicle performance expectations, etc., to match what some unknown person wants.
Note to the car manufacturors: Please provide the vehicle that does what the consumer wants, because the consumers sure won't change to match the vehicle.
First) John, you are aware that there is gold and titanium in many computer products? They are recycled. The recycling process uses dangerous and polluting chemicals. It is largely done in China. The sites where it is done make Loves Park look like an Eden. I am quite certain the hybrid batteries will be sent to the same operations and the pollution will increase.
Second) John again: Refining ethanol does not take into account manufacturing fertilizer, tilling the soil, moving seed, fighting pests and weeds, harvesting the grain, moving the grain to process, fighting erosion, fighting the damage nitrogen does to the soil. Agriculture takes tremendous tolls on the envrionment. Depending upon agriculture for fuel is the least green possible.
Third) John once more: I do all my shopping on foot, bus or by mass transit. If I need something delivered, at least I know it comes in a truck making multiple deliveries. Frankly, if you are as concerned about the environment in your children's future as you appear to suggest, you should be thinking about moving somewhere that a car is not so all flamed necessary.
Fourth) Stevedebi: Maybe you should get out of Phoenix. If you do not want to go East, go to San Diego, LA or San Fran. Plenty of high end privately housed multi-unit dwelling people quite happy with the lifestyle. That said, I do agree with alternative energy development. I mentioned hydrogen and fuel cells. I maintain hope that fusion will be harnessed for energy soon. Solar panel technology has improved to where it is actually quite viable. Too bad so many of those Phoenix home owner's associations do not allow them in the neighborhood. Hybrid cars do not bring us closer to any alternative source of energy.
Finally, Nippononly: Actually, three years ago I did commute by car. I have sense seen the light. I walk to the train and commute downtown. As I mentioned above, I walk to the store and almost everywhere else I go. I do have a car. A Miata. I make a point to drive it no more than once a week. I have driven it only three times this winter. At present, the Miata has been in the shop the last week and a half. I've been getting around fine.
I live in LA (gets pretty hot over here in the Valley).
However, my point is that if we have the vision and ask for the technology (and put our money behind it), we can become "eco friendly" without massive lifestyle changes. It just hasn't been a priority in the US yet. And it is ironic that the more people push lifestyle changes (attempt to mandate them, that is), the more the population pushes back. If the enviros focused on production of cheaper green energy, the public would have a better opinion of them... and the auto manufacturors would build cars the eco way.
I do not think anyone is pushing people into multi-unit Playa Vista. Many of us have come to realize it is the way we prefer to live.
I personally do not try to proselytize about my lifestyle. My issue here is that hybrids are not green. Nothing else.
Solar panels would work well throughout LA as well. An alternative that requires no change in your lifestyle, little investment and with pretty decent returns. But it is not glamorous the one some are trying to make hybrids.
I mention Phoenix because I do business there occaisionally, and it is HOT.
I looked into solar, a bit too high cost right now...
Also, I would have to say that Hybrids are green(er) than other cars... just imagine how little you would pollute if you traded in your Miata on a Prius...
"Your analogy may make sense ... if you were describing a fuel cell or some other engine that uses no fossil fuel."
You do realize that HSD is one step closer to FCHV right? Current HSD uses gas engine because it is the most realistic choice right now. HSD is highly adaptable and gas engine can be replaced with fuel cell stack, human power, or any other power source.
"None of the hybrid proponents have discussed at all to my satisfaction the pollution generated making the hybrid vehicles"
It has been discussed on "Is it time to buy a hybrid? Are they up to the chore?" board. It should be somewhere after message# 3,000.
logic1: "Plenty of high end privately housed multi-unit dwelling people quite happy with the lifestyle."
And if you talk to the people who live in "high end privately housed multi-unit dwellings," you will quickly discover that many of them have a house in the country, at least the ones I know in eastern cities.
Reminds me of the woman in Pennsylvania who headed a group dedicated to fighting "sprawl." She regularly extolled the virtues of urban, high-density living. Turns out that she and her husband had a country house in rural Pennsylvania. No doubt that house came in handy when they wanted to escape from the joys of urban living. ;-)
logic1: "As I mentioned above, I walk to the store and almost everywhere else I go. I do have a car. A Miata. I make a point to drive it no more than once a week. I have driven it only three times this winter. At present, the Miata has been in the shop the last week and a half. I've been getting around fine."
Commendable for you, but many of us have interests - not to mention friends and family - that are not within walking distance. I grew up in a small town where everything and everybody were within walking distance. No thanks - once was enough.
logic, I like your dedication. Certainly the greenest "driving" you could ever do would be to leave the car home and use mass transit, better yet to not own a car at all.
A couple of years back I read in Environment magazine that more than 50% of the energy consumed by the average car during its lifetime is in its manufacture. Using that figure, one can conclude that we would all reduce our energy consumption (in this case gasoline consumption) the most by leaving all those PZEV Foci and Prius on the dealer lots and investing in repairing our old cars until they actually crack in half from age.
In that same time frame it was still true that more than half the air pollution (smog-type emissions, NOT CO2) in the U.S. came from vehicles, not single-point sources like power plants and factories. But I don't know if that is still true today.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
> Were you making a joke or just posting uninformed again? > All cars built within the ~ last 10 years or so can run on E10
Just because a vehicle is BUILT to use E10 doesn't mean it actually DOES.
E10 is available in my area. It isn't in many areas of the country still. In fact, just last year some people were expressing fear about what the introduction of ethanol will do to their engine... and they were also worried about the effect it could have on their MPG.
Remember, last month's 48.1 MPG was accomplished using E10, a fuel with less energy than pure gasoline.
Hybrid r&d expense adds very little to electric engine development. The primary reason fuel cells are not in wide use is the lack of hydrogen production and infrastructure.
Toyota, GM, Honda, and DC could all put fuel cell cars in the consumer market if there were reliable and reasonably convenient ways to produce, transport and store hydrogen.
I do own property in rural Brasil that I try to visit once a year. However, I've had the shacks that were on it demolished, it has no source of energy other than a solar panel, and a local Bs. college has been replanting native Atlantic rain forest species on it.
Don't you think one, two, and four fall under the rubric of production and infrastructure?
Don't know what you mean by reliability. Electric generating fuel cells work fine. Provided they have hydrogen to fuel them.
Presumably with emissions you refer to power needed to extract hydrogen. You could say the same about extracting oil, steel, nickel, etc. used with hybrids.
Hey, I am sorry I do not accept that you are saving the world for your children by driving a Prius. You should accept there are different ways of looking at things.
if a hydrogen fuel-cell vehicle got into an accident? Is the cleanup any more dangerous, and is the wreckage any more volatile than it would be with regular cars? I have heard that there are some concerns with hybrid cars such as the Prius, that cleanup after an accident is messy, dangerous, and expensive.
oil and filters is a reliability issue. Just swap the parts. Platinum is infinitely recyclable. The old piece will have value the customer can trade in.
In any event, I recall reading the membrane life is increasing.
Platinum extraction is equally environmentally problematic, but the greater value or the metal means it can still be profitable to build better safeguards in the extraaction process.
In the south yes-with infrastructure. Range is still an issue. I think volume will help cost a great deal. In the north-not yet. Imagine thousands of water vapor emitting vehicles in Chicago in Jan or Feb. Instant skating rink on the freeway (or tollway). If they will start up. There are still some signifigant hurdles in northern climates (nobody I have seen addresses the ice problem) that may or may not be solved. I'm not against fuel cells but I think they are not ready and it is difficult to predict when and if they will get there. Sometimes more research finds solutions, sometimes it finds huge barriers.
logic-By the way, in the last 15 years most of my commuting to work has been by foot or bicycle (even in sub-zero weather). Oddly enough I am also a Miata owner.
Just because a vehicle is BUILT to use E10 doesn't mean it actually DOES.
E10 is available in my area. It isn't in many areas of the country still. In fact, just last year some people were expressing fear about what the introduction of ethanol will do to their engine... and they were also worried about the effect it could have on their MPG. Remember, last month's 48.1 MPG was accomplished using E10, a fuel with less energy than pure gasoline.
___I run 10% ethanol and received ~ 65% better then your 04 Prius’ fuel economy last month so what! All cars in the US can run ethanol and are warranted by the manufacturers to do so?
___What is available in our area due mostly to our state legislatures mandating ethanol’s use vs. other areas using other oxygenates doesn’t matter to the car itself other then lower energy content/given quantity vs. straight or straight summer blended gasoline.
___Wimsey1, the effluent of a Fuel Cell stack is water vapor That would be a cloud, not like the water coming out of your faucet
I do not trade precious and commodity metals, so normally I ignore that part of my market update e-mail. Given today's debate covered the topic, I checked:
Platinum: Last trade, $919 per ounce.
Nickel: Current quote on the London metals board: $6.20 per pound.
There is just a little bit more incentive to be careful with platinum, imo.
People are now just twisting words to create something to debate about. A fact is reworded to appear as though it was an attempt to provoke a response.
April 1, 2000 is when I first played with a Prius.
Today is my 4 year anniversary of that fantastic event. It is also the day I stop debating. There are far too many that want my help, and I'm much rather devote my attention to them... now that hybrids are up to the chore.
Don't bother to reply, because I won't be bother checking.
But if you insist, here's a closing thought... with all that nonsense you shoveled about Focus, there's one reality you never addressed (or carefully avoided). You argued that the price of a battery-pack would cancel out any savings; however, you never came up with any proof that replacement would ever be necessary... nor did you provide proof that a Focus could even last that long... I certainly don't ever here about any achieving mileage that high.
Whether it is good enough for ME is irrelevant...it is your land, and if you want to use it this way, that is your business. I applaud you for using your property to advance your ideals.
I can't help but note, however, that the most common way to get to Brazil from Illinois is via airplane, which uses lots of fossil fuels. Unless you are traveling there on a mule train.
You're using modern technology and reliable, inexpensive energy to enjoy a higher standard of living (reflected in your case by regular overseas travel) than that enjoyed by your ancestors.
Which, come to think of it, is what people who live in single-family suburban homes and use automobiles are doing, too. ;-)
___As for the Ford Focus PZEV FACTS, how is an 04 Prius faster, better handling, less expensive, and even cleaner? For all the facts linked and provided, you don’t have a leg to stand on. I didn’t even bring the cost of a pack replacement into the final cost equation even though it will be necessary at some point down the line. The Ford Focus 5-Door PZEV was still far less costly ($4,500 - $11,000 cheaper) when loaded, more luxurious, much faster, much better handling, and even larger. I didn’t even include the price of the pack. I guess all of the above non-sense cannot be proven by any number of professional auto reviews and reviewers, or car manufacturer web sites including both Toyota and Ford themselves
___And with all the incorrect statements you have spread around the web water vapor in the winter falls to the ground in a second or two air density is the reason for lower fuel economy in the winter what SULEV and PZEV are 10 dB in the 04 Prius rapid heat output is needed for PZEV rated emissions Atkinson cycle has a different stroke Prius leading the way in fuel economy Prius is twice as efficient as a Corolla PZEV reduces fuel economy Misstated Prius tank capacity is no big deal And the list of your mistakes goes on and on and on.
___Now would you please hold true to your promise and stay away this time? I know you have promised before but let’s just let the facts speak for themselves instead of your imagination.
I'm SICK of this phony comparison between theFocus and the Prius!
They ARE NOT comparable!! The Prius is a $20k Hybrid. The Focus is a $15k sled! I know, I used to sell them! Resale is crap, quality is crap, it set RECORDS for recalls, and it's sales are STILL PLUMMETING! Focus probably won't even break 200k units this year, an indictment on he product and the manufacturer.
The PZEV rating on a Focus is like NAV on a Chevy Aveo! The US Focus missing the Mazda 3 platform redesign is another death knell, and will help Ford lose EVEN MORE market share to Toyota.
It was 5th in C&D last econo-comparison, behind Civic, Corolla, a Hyundai, and the last Gen Protege!.
Just thought I'd break the news to ya'. Seems like the time is right.
So let's see Ford build a car that runs! If not from year 1 at least year 2! THEN put some technology into a WORKING platform. Thanx.
won't Focus be ahead of Civic, a perennial favorite?! :-P
Anyway, the original point of the Focus comparison was tied to the title of this thread: the potential of ICE-only vehicles compared to that of hybrids. The PZEV Focus does have one or two impressive environmental credentials...so do the PZEV Camry and Accord. All make high 20s for combined mpg. Perhaps VCM could make a significant improvement in that. VCM could turn the Camry engine into the Prius engine when cruising at speed, thereby saving a lot of gas. What would be really neat, and probably really expensive, is to combine both: a hybrid Accord with a VCM-equipped 4-cylinder engine that is the same one used in the gas-only car. You would get the city benefits of stoplight shutdown and regenerativne coasting/braking, with the high speed benefits of higher power when needed, and VCM when you don't.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The topics here are NOT to be used as the weapons in ongoing personal disputes. If you disagree on an issue, that's a normal part of online discussions. Even heated disageements where each side is presenting their views with passion is OK. But when you start to aim at the other guy and begin to make it about THEM rather than the topic, I have to step in. I don't want to, but if you can't step back and agree to disagree about some things and get on with the topic, I'll have no choice but to send this to the archives to stop the nonsense. And before anyone does this, we don't need to hear "HE started it" or "HE's posting lies"... been there, done that MANY times in many topics.
Rather my point is that there is a lot of overlooking to do for someone who otherwise leads the life of waste to suddenly claim they are green based on, of all things, an automobile purchase.
My point on recovering nickel from the hybrid batteries is that the relatively low value of nickel means the recovery will most likely happen carelessly, in underdevloped nations.
The Toyota fluff piece about Prius recyclability notwithstanding, the reality is wherever those batteries are torn apart after they are spent will become a toxic waste site. The value of nickel is too low to insure the proper technology is in place.
On the other hand, platinum in fuel cell membranes is so valuable, it is likely recovery will take place in first world centers at first world standards.
The Focus, Civic, Corolla's sales numbers for this year and the last few. Not enough time to really get a good judge, but I'm curious about the Mazda 3's as well.
Comments
Nickel is quite valuable. It will be salvaged.
JOHN
That doesn't even make sense in the suburbs.
You still have to drive to get & from to the depot.
And there are far too many destinations that will never be on-route. You still have to drive from time to time.
JOHN
Translation: The American dream should now be living in high density housing (think public projects), without air conditioning (try that in Phoenix at 110 degrees), without any electricity (don't get that one), and hope there is no crime - because there are no street lights. No thanks.
The switch must be to alternative fuels, not to our lifestyles, or the people simply won't vote for it. This is the American way. It has been responsible for some of the best (and worst) advances in history.
As consumers, we should set the requirements and let industry provide the products. A lot of what I read in these forums is how we should change our driving styles, vehicle performance expectations, etc., to match what some unknown person wants.
Note to the car manufacturors: Please provide the vehicle that does what the consumer wants, because the consumers sure won't change to match the vehicle.
Second) John again: Refining ethanol does not take into account manufacturing fertilizer, tilling the soil, moving seed, fighting pests and weeds, harvesting the grain, moving the grain to process, fighting erosion, fighting the damage nitrogen does to the soil. Agriculture takes tremendous tolls on the envrionment. Depending upon agriculture for fuel is the least green possible.
Third) John once more: I do all my shopping on foot, bus or by mass transit. If I need something delivered, at least I know it comes in a truck making multiple deliveries. Frankly, if you are as concerned about the environment in your children's future as you appear to suggest, you should be thinking about moving somewhere that a car is not so all flamed necessary.
Fourth) Stevedebi: Maybe you should get out of Phoenix. If you do not want to go East, go to San Diego, LA or San Fran. Plenty of high end privately housed multi-unit dwelling people quite happy with the lifestyle. That said, I do agree with alternative energy development. I mentioned hydrogen and fuel cells. I maintain hope that fusion will be harnessed for energy soon. Solar panel technology has improved to where it is actually quite viable. Too bad so many of those Phoenix home owner's associations do not allow them in the neighborhood. Hybrid cars do not bring us closer to any alternative source of energy.
Finally, Nippononly: Actually, three years ago I did commute by car. I have sense seen the light. I walk to the train and commute downtown. As I mentioned above, I walk to the store and almost everywhere else I go. I do have a car. A Miata. I make a point to drive it no more than once a week. I have driven it only three times this winter. At present, the Miata has been in the shop the last week and a half. I've been getting around fine.
However, my point is that if we have the vision and ask for the technology (and put our money behind it), we can become "eco friendly" without massive lifestyle changes. It just hasn't been a priority in the US yet. And it is ironic that the more people push lifestyle changes (attempt to mandate them, that is), the more the population pushes back. If the enviros focused on production of cheaper green energy, the public would have a better opinion of them... and the auto manufacturors would build cars the eco way.
I personally do not try to proselytize about my lifestyle. My issue here is that hybrids are not green. Nothing else.
Solar panels would work well throughout LA as well. An alternative that requires no change in your lifestyle, little investment and with pretty decent returns. But it is not glamorous the one some are trying to make hybrids.
I looked into solar, a bit too high cost right now...
Also, I would have to say that Hybrids are green(er) than other cars... just imagine how little you would pollute if you traded in your Miata on a Prius...
"Your analogy may make sense ... if you were describing a fuel cell or some other engine that uses no fossil fuel."
You do realize that HSD is one step closer to FCHV right? Current HSD uses gas engine because it is the most realistic choice right now. HSD is highly adaptable and gas engine can be replaced with fuel cell stack, human power, or any other power source.
"None of the hybrid proponents have discussed at all to my satisfaction the pollution generated making the hybrid vehicles"
It has been discussed on "Is it time to buy a hybrid? Are they up to the chore?" board. It should be somewhere after message# 3,000.
Dennis
usbseawolf2000 "Is it time to buy a hybrid? Are they up to the chore?" Mar 12, 2004 10:05am
Here is the URL to the Toyota Website where they talk about the manufacturing environmental impact:
http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/k_forum/tenji/pdf/pgr_e.pdf
One warning: it is a bit light...
And if you talk to the people who live in "high end privately housed multi-unit dwellings," you will quickly discover that many of them have a house in the country, at least the ones I know in eastern cities.
Reminds me of the woman in Pennsylvania who headed a group dedicated to fighting "sprawl." She regularly extolled the virtues of urban, high-density living. Turns out that she and her husband had a country house in rural Pennsylvania. No doubt that house came in handy when they wanted to escape from the joys of urban living. ;-)
logic1: "As I mentioned above, I walk to the store and almost everywhere else I go. I do have a car. A Miata. I make a point to drive it no more than once a week. I have driven it only three times this winter. At present, the Miata has been in the shop the last week and a half. I've been getting around fine."
Commendable for you, but many of us have interests - not to mention friends and family - that are not within walking distance. I grew up in a small town where everything and everybody were within walking distance. No thanks - once was enough.
By the way, my Prius runs on E10.
___Were you making a joke or just posting uninformed again? All cars built within the ~ last 10 years or so can run on E10
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
logic, I like your dedication. Certainly the greenest "driving" you could ever do would be to leave the car home and use mass transit, better yet to not own a car at all.
A couple of years back I read in Environment magazine that more than 50% of the energy consumed by the average car during its lifetime is in its manufacture. Using that figure, one can conclude that we would all reduce our energy consumption (in this case gasoline consumption) the most by leaving all those PZEV Foci and Prius on the dealer lots and investing in repairing our old cars until they actually crack in half from age.
In that same time frame it was still true that more than half the air pollution (smog-type emissions, NOT CO2) in the U.S. came from vehicles, not single-point sources like power plants and factories. But I don't know if that is still true today.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
> All cars built within the ~ last 10 years or so can run on E10
Just because a vehicle is BUILT to use E10 doesn't mean it actually DOES.
E10 is available in my area. It isn't in many areas of the country still. In fact, just last year some people were expressing fear about what the introduction of ethanol will do to their engine... and they were also worried about the effect it could have on their MPG.
Remember, last month's 48.1 MPG was accomplished using E10, a fuel with less energy than pure gasoline.
JOHN
Toyota, GM, Honda, and DC could all put fuel cell cars in the consumer market if there were reliable and reasonably convenient ways to produce, transport and store hydrogen.
I do own property in rural Brasil that I try to visit once a year. However, I've had the shacks that were on it demolished, it has no source of energy other than a solar panel, and a local Bs. college has been replanting native Atlantic rain forest species on it.
Good enough for you?
Most of what they say about manufacturing is incoporated among the competition.
I know for a fact GM was cited by the Sierra Club for its factory in Indiana that draws its power from methane that vents out of a local land fill.
> lack of hydrogen production and infrastructure.
Stack Cost.
Fuel Cost.
Reliability.
Startup Time.
Low Efficiency.
High Overall Emissions.
...those factors aren't equally important, huh?
JOHN
Don't you think one, two, and four fall under the rubric of production and infrastructure?
Don't know what you mean by reliability. Electric generating fuel cells work fine. Provided they have hydrogen to fuel them.
Presumably with emissions you refer to power needed to extract hydrogen. You could say the same about extracting oil, steel, nickel, etc. used with hybrids.
Hey, I am sorry I do not accept that you are saving the world for your children by driving a Prius. You should accept there are different ways of looking at things.
Screeeech, crunch, BLAM!, "hey, where'd all this water come from?"
As of about year ago, estimated membrane life in the cell was only 40,000 miles.
Imagine if an engine only lasted 40,000 miles. Hmm?
JOHN
40,000 mile engines...hmmm, GM comes to mind! ;-)
> when it does expire?
It is buried within a wet stack. So it may not be as that simple to "swap".
It is made out of platinum. So it is definitely not cheap to replace.
JOHN
In any event, I recall reading the membrane life is increasing.
I tried the very same comment with Nickel yesterday.
JOHN
HEMI = Hyped-up Euro Mexican Import?
Just kidding, folks. If you take this seriously, please consider counseling.
-juice
Screeeech, crunch, BLAM!, "hey, where'd all this water come from?" <<
Or am I wrong - isn't there a possibility of explosion? Of course, so is gasoline...
However, I suppose the cold temperature of the Hyrdogen could cause some problems with frozen body parts, human and machine...
In the north-not yet.
Imagine thousands of water vapor emitting vehicles in Chicago in Jan or Feb. Instant skating rink on the freeway (or tollway). If they will start up. There are still some signifigant hurdles in northern climates (nobody I have seen addresses the ice problem) that may or may not be solved.
I'm not against fuel cells but I think they are not ready and it is difficult to predict when and if they will get there. Sometimes more research finds solutions, sometimes it finds huge barriers.
logic-By the way, in the last 15 years most of my commuting to work has been by foot or bicycle (even in sub-zero weather). Oddly enough I am also a Miata owner.
Just because a vehicle is BUILT to use E10 doesn't mean it actually DOES.
E10 is available in my area. It isn't in many areas of the country still. In fact, just last year some people were expressing fear about what the introduction of ethanol will do to their engine... and they were also worried about the effect it could have on their MPG.
Remember, last month's 48.1 MPG was accomplished using E10, a fuel with less energy than pure gasoline.
___I run 10% ethanol and received ~ 65% better then your 04 Prius’ fuel economy last month so what! All cars in the US can run ethanol and are warranted by the manufacturers to do so?
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/consumer/fuels/altfuels/ethanol.pdf
___What is available in our area due mostly to our state legislatures mandating ethanol’s use vs. other areas using other oxygenates doesn’t matter to the car itself other then lower energy content/given quantity vs. straight or straight summer blended gasoline.
___Wimsey1, the effluent of a Fuel Cell stack is water vapor That would be a cloud, not like the water coming out of your faucet
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Maybe we've struck upon some odd Miata owners quirk.
> coming out of your faucet
It wouldn't be a cloud either.
Water vapor stays in gas form for only a second or two in the dead of winter. Then it turns solid and falls to the ground.
JOHN
Platinum: Last trade, $919 per ounce.
Nickel: Current quote on the London metals board: $6.20 per pound.
There is just a little bit more incentive to be careful with platinum, imo.
Just because Gold is worth more than Aluminum does not mean people will simply bury Aluminum in a dump.
Both will be reclaimed anyway. There is nothing to debate.
JOHN
People are now just twisting words to create something to debate about. A fact is reworded to appear as though it was an attempt to provoke a response.
There quite simply is nothing to discuss anymore.
This question has been answered too.
JOHN
Water vapor stays in gas form for only a second or two in the dead of winter. Then it turns solid and falls to the ground.
___Now there are no clouds in winter The world may not have ever known!
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
You are on your own now.
April 1, 2000 is when I first played with a Prius.
Today is my 4 year anniversary of that fantastic event. It is also the day I stop debating. There are far too many that want my help, and I'm much rather devote my attention to them... now that hybrids are up to the chore.
Don't bother to reply, because I won't be bother checking.
But if you insist, here's a closing thought... with all that nonsense you shoveled about Focus, there's one reality you never addressed (or carefully avoided). You argued that the price of a battery-pack would cancel out any savings; however, you never came up with any proof that replacement would ever be necessary... nor did you provide proof that a Focus could even last that long... I certainly don't ever here about any achieving mileage that high.
Goodbye.
JOHN
Whether it is good enough for ME is irrelevant...it is your land, and if you want to use it this way, that is your business. I applaud you for using your property to advance your ideals.
I can't help but note, however, that the most common way to get to Brazil from Illinois is via airplane, which uses lots of fossil fuels. Unless you are traveling there on a mule train.
You're using modern technology and reliable, inexpensive energy to enjoy a higher standard of living (reflected in your case by regular overseas travel) than that enjoyed by your ancestors.
Which, come to think of it, is what people who live in single-family suburban homes and use automobiles are doing, too. ;-)
___Good riddance then
___As for the Ford Focus PZEV FACTS, how is an 04 Prius faster, better handling, less expensive, and even cleaner? For all the facts linked and provided, you don’t have a leg to stand on. I didn’t even bring the cost of a pack replacement into the final cost equation even though it will be necessary at some point down the line. The Ford Focus 5-Door PZEV was still far less costly ($4,500 - $11,000 cheaper) when loaded, more luxurious, much faster, much better handling, and even larger. I didn’t even include the price of the pack. I guess all of the above non-sense cannot be proven by any number of professional auto reviews and reviewers, or car manufacturer web sites including both Toyota and Ford themselves
___And with all the incorrect statements you have spread around the web water vapor in the winter falls to the ground in a second or two air density is the reason for lower fuel economy in the winter what SULEV and PZEV are 10 dB in the 04 Prius rapid heat output is needed for PZEV rated emissions Atkinson cycle has a different stroke Prius leading the way in fuel economy Prius is twice as efficient as a Corolla PZEV reduces fuel economy Misstated Prius tank capacity is no big deal And the list of your mistakes goes on and on and on.
___Now would you please hold true to your promise and stay away this time? I know you have promised before but let’s just let the facts speak for themselves instead of your imagination.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
They ARE NOT comparable!! The Prius is a $20k Hybrid. The Focus is a $15k sled! I know, I used to sell them! Resale is crap, quality is crap, it set RECORDS for recalls, and it's sales are STILL PLUMMETING! Focus probably won't even break 200k units this year, an indictment on he product and the manufacturer.
The PZEV rating on a Focus is like NAV on a Chevy Aveo! The US Focus missing the Mazda 3 platform redesign is another death knell, and will help Ford lose EVEN MORE market share to Toyota.
It was 5th in C&D last econo-comparison, behind Civic, Corolla, a Hyundai, and the last Gen Protege!.
Just thought I'd break the news to ya'. Seems like the time is right.
So let's see Ford build a car that runs! If not from year 1 at least year 2! THEN put some technology into a WORKING platform. Thanx.
DrFill
Anyway, the original point of the Focus comparison was tied to the title of this thread: the potential of ICE-only vehicles compared to that of hybrids. The PZEV Focus does have one or two impressive environmental credentials...so do the PZEV Camry and Accord. All make high 20s for combined mpg. Perhaps VCM could make a significant improvement in that. VCM could turn the Camry engine into the Prius engine when cruising at speed, thereby saving a lot of gas. What would be really neat, and probably really expensive, is to combine both: a hybrid Accord with a VCM-equipped 4-cylinder engine that is the same one used in the gas-only car. You would get the city benefits of stoplight shutdown and regenerativne coasting/braking, with the high speed benefits of higher power when needed, and VCM when you don't.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
DrFill
DrFill
Again, PLEASE stop trying to PROVE things.
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Rather my point is that there is a lot of overlooking to do for someone who otherwise leads the life of waste to suddenly claim they are green based on, of all things, an automobile purchase.
The Toyota fluff piece about Prius recyclability notwithstanding, the reality is wherever those batteries are torn apart after they are spent will become a toxic waste site. The value of nickel is too low to insure the proper technology is in place.
On the other hand, platinum in fuel cell membranes is so valuable, it is likely recovery will take place in first world centers at first world standards.
DrFill
The recalls did happen, but years ago, and maybe Ford sorted them out.
I just don't think the PZEV Focus should be dismissed.
-juice
Corolla/Matrix: 75k this year, up 6%
Focus: 49k this year, down 16%
Civic Hybrid: 2700+ in March
Prius: 3700+ in March, 10k for the year
Mazda 3: 6500 in March, 16k for the year
Civic: 67k this year, down 7% this year
DrFill