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Hemi vs. Hybrid! Japan goes Tech, US goes ICE! Who's really winning??
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I'm not decrying your scepticism, that is the heart of scientific inquiry, but I sure would like to see the questiion addressed by the experts.
logic-I suspect that the two of us does not constitute a signifigant data base. Chuckle. ;-)
And I probably enjoy burning petroleum more than you, but I'm cool with where your at.
Top down, brother.
1) The numbers don't state that all the Prii sold Oct-Dec are '04s and I suspect that it would be incorrect to assume that. Those numbers likely also include the selloff of the '03s that were remaining on the lots, and that went faster as the wait for '04s became apparent.
2) Pre-Release pipeline loading - It's usual for manufacturer to get in some production time before the new model hits the showroom to ensure that there is a bolus of them coming in up front. Particularly given that they had well over 10K Priuses already sold in the Pioneer Program, and knew they had demand for at least that many. After the initial slug of vehicles works through after release though, you're back to relying on monthly production.
3) The Rest of the World - January they started rolling out the Prius in Europe. As the number of markets expands, the numbers get diluted, since production is the limit.
The sales there are also running far ahead of projections, and the wait times are rapidly catching up with the US.
___It was 13,694 04’s according to mrv’s information above. As for the rest of it, we shall see soon enough I guess?
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
I think both the Focus and the Prius are great cars, but they serve two entirely different kinds of customers. The Focus is a sport compact with great handling and snarky looks, and now that Ford has addressed most if not all of the quality issues, it's probably one of the first cars of its kind I would consider myself -- and I'm a hardcore Toyota guy as you know. I'd certainly take it over a Civic in a heartbeat, and maybe a Corolla as well.
The Prius, on the other hand, is Toyota's noble experiment, and while doing very well in Japan, which has stricter emissions standards than we do, was introduced to the US market as a method of preemptively meeting California's ever-stricter emissions standards. Toyota has always obsessed about two things in the design of their cars -- how to pack the most room into the smallest package, and how to make do with the smallest, lightest engine (which is why they are much less beloved by the street crowd than Honda or Nissan). They are also heavily committed to environmental responsibility. Honda shares most of Toyota's concerns, with a slightly different approach.
To compare the two cars (Focus and Prius) is like apples and oranges. Why not get both, and get a life to go along with it?
(Just kidding -- I'd hate to be taken literally!)
=D
The list is number of Prii sold per month with no breakdown of which model year it is.
When you cut/pasted the list you also copied the words and assumptions of the guy who posted it.
That "Estimated number of 2004 sold..." is HIS words, and he did it by adding up the numbers from Oct-Dec.
There's nothing in the 'numbers he posted' that says that, and that's clearly not what the numbers represent.
If you're going to quote data, make sure you know what is source data and what is someones 'interpretation' of it.
These are, by far, the worst car months in the business, as it is the heart of witer, everyone bought something in the Year-end closeouts, or is waiting for the first of Spring to enjoy a new car.
The car sales business really starts in March, which with December, is usually the best month of the year in sales numbers.
I've sold a few cars in my day, including new Fords (Focus), so I might know. If the strange looks didn't kill it, the strange quality did. You never get a second chance to make a first impression, my friends.
DrFill
One, the List has had such stars as the Pontiac Bonneville, Pontiac 6000, and the legendary Merkur XR4Ti on it!
Two, the Focus was just beaten easily last year by no less than four cars in it's OWN CLASS last year! So it being 10 Best in the entire industry is a stretch at best.
Three, the obviously don't take factors like resale, quality, sales numbers, economy into account on this list.
C&D writes the best articles, but they may set a record for most times contradicting itself!
No less than 2 years ago they had the Chevy Silverado as the BEST Full-size P/U! This was 2 months after it was soundly beaten by the new Dodge Ram in a direct comparo, BEFORE the HEMI!
DrFill
___I just copied and pasted another’s work and not only did I mention their nick and the forum they posted it from, I also included the links they provided where they got the information. If you have better information, please feel free to post it. If you don’t, then don’t make assumptions as to its correctness.
“It was 13,694 04’s according to mrv’s information above”.
___Did I not mention mrv again or do you know something mrv doesn’t? I am quite interested given < 10,000 04’s were sold in the 3 months of January, Feb, and March of this year by all appearances? If leftover 03’s were included in that tally, what conclusions can be drawn given 657 non-04 Prius were sold in July of 03, 299 non-04 Prius’ were sold in August of 03, and 112 non-04 Prius’ were sold in September of 03? I would say mrv did a pretty good job of disseminating what information is available. He or She is also an 04 Prius owner if that helps.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
I don't know exact 03/04 sales in that time frame, nor am I inclined to go 'prove him wrong' by digging out exactly how many of those Prius sales in Oct-Dec were left over '03s, but it's certain that some of them were, which was all I stated (correctly).
As the Prius situation unfolded, people were holding off buying the '03s waiting for the '04s, so there were quite a few sitting on the lots when the '04s came out.
When it became clear that demand far far exceeded supply for the '04s, the remaining '03s sold. This could be observed clearly from the posts of people buying them in the Oct-Jan time frame.
So, how many of them were left? I don't know, nor do I really care. The point is that the 'estimate' you quoted is incorrect, and thus any conclusions drawn from it would also be suspect.
If you aren't interested, then the facts are just out there for the rest of the readers to use in evaluating the assumptions and theories that people may make based on the numbers.
I don't know exact 03/04 sales in that time frame, nor am I inclined to go 'prove him wrong' by digging out exactly how many of those Prius sales in Oct-Dec were left over '03s, but it's certain that some of them were, which was all I stated (correctly).
___Not only did I post the 04 Prius owning author, the Prius forum, the Toyota provided links to where the information came from but even mentioned similar again in the second post. Here is his or her own estimates as directly quoted: Estimated number of 2004 Prius sold in the US (Oct 03 - Dec 03): 13,694. Did you miss something? You are calling me fallacious? Why not go over to the forum in question and blast the Prius owner who posted the information as I only passed it along. You haven’t provided a single fact nor have you provided a single piece of data backing up anything that you have said yet you are calling me a liar? Where are your facts? Before you accuse someone of not posting facts, please feel free to post some of your own since obviously you don’t know a thing about prior Prius sales.
___If in July, August, and September only 1,068 new 01-03 Prius’ were sold, how can you even pretend to speculate that all remaining 01-03 Prius’ available were included in a the Oct. - Dec. sales results and had to add up to a rather large percentage of the total. This would be the difference between total Prius sales in the Oct. - Dec. time frame and those sold in the January - March time frame more then likely and even after Toyota supposedly increased Prius production late last year/early this year? That would make at least 3,776 01-03 Prius’ sold to possibly make up the difference between 03 sales and 04 sales of 04 Prius’! And a reality check to go along with all of those 01-03 Prius having been sold in that Oct. – Dec. time frame A new 04 Prius was priced at $19,995 + delivery with some wait is passed over for an 01-03 brand new yet much less capable, much smaller, less clean, worse handling 01-03 Prius going for $19,995 for immediate delivery. There was only a $1,200 mark up on the 03’s if you think an outstanding deal could be had on one of the older leftovers even after the 04 Prius was launched. Fat chance but I am sure a few probably were sold with a few shady nudges from some Toyota dealers without an ounce of integrity
___Please let me know where and when you come up with your information as I am greatly looking forward to reading it Otherwise, you are simply adding false hoods to another post from another Prius owner who included as much as he or she could from Toyota’s own public information releases.
So, how many of them were left? I don't know, nor do I really care. The point is that the 'estimate' you quoted is incorrect, and thus any conclusions drawn from it would also be suspect. If you aren't interested, then the facts are just out there for the rest of the readers to use in evaluating the assumptions and theories that people may make based on the numbers.
___As it stands, you have released 0 bits of factual information, 0% reliability of any conclusion, and have created a personal attack. If you don’t care, please refrain from adding your own brand of useless diatribe. Drawing conclusions from data coming from TMC themselves is all any of us have to go on and with that, I passed on exactly what was posted in terms of TMC’s own public press releases and conclusions from someone that did quite a bit of work to place it all together if I do say so myself.
___If you would like the exact threads location, I will give it to you privately if you haven’t found it already. I see you have failed in regards to correcting the Prius owners own falsehoods given he or she has posted > 5% of the total over in that Prius forum alone. In other words, I have a feeling he or she is reasonably well respected in terms of Prius knowledge given his or her activity If you do not care to visit and correct the information posted in that particular Prius forum and post your insults towards his or her own conclusions, I will know with 100% certainty that your previous post was simply a malicious attack and your post is as worthless as you are.
___Wayne R. Gerdes
I also know who posted them, and the assumptions they made.
The facts are clear, and at this point we can just let the post sequence here speak for itself, I think it does that quite eloquently. Your last post is just the icing on the cake. I don't think anyone will have any difficulty making an informed decision about who is attacking whom here, and what the agenda is.
Thanks for staying true to form.
___Your welcome Mr. “his fallacious” “your fallacy” “quoting false statistics”. Please feel free to knock mrv’s information and post over in that Prius forum referenced. I see you haven’t yet so what does that tell us? True to form? It appears that you are
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
You used it to propose (or rather, to be technically correct, to resurrect) a conspiracy theory, for which you have no facts except wishful thinking and an apparently pathological hatred of Toyota and the Prius, so it was relevant here.
It really wasn't for your benefit, because I knew you wouldn't care, and would just take it as an opportunity to try to get someone else to react to you. Sorry, you'll have to find someone else to bait. My posts were for the other readers.
As I said, I'm quite happy to let the posts all speak for themselves.
She posted it as an estimate and fun speculation, drawing no conclusions, and there is no harm done. It doesn't matter in that context.
___Since you have not replied to her in the thread nor have you bashed her for bringing it up, have you been in contact with her in regards to if it was fun or if she did not draw any conclusions from it? Maybe you are just speculating?
You used it to propose (or rather, to be technically correct, to resurrect) a conspiracy theory
___Now it’s a conspiracy theory and one intended to cause harm? Harm to whom? The only person apparently harmed was you. If so, go stew in another forum I am interested in the reason for as many as 13,000 + 04 Prius’ available in the first 3 months and < 10,000 in the second 3 given the amount of hopeful customer pre-orders sitting on the desks of thousands of Toyota dealership salesman? Of course you aren’t interested in this but I know a few thousand hopeful 04 Prius drivers that might be? When you find out why, please let us know.
apparently pathological hatred of Toyota and the Prius
___First off, I own an 03 Toyota. Second off, I have owned a Toyota in my household since late 1992. Maybe you didn’t know both were std. ICE’s. With that, did you happen to notice the title of the thread? Where you come off with that kind of non-sense is your own doing but I would recommend that you see someone to take care of your paranoia(s) Hate is a pretty big word. Given you feel the need to use it, maybe you shouldn’t be posting here? There are plenty of other places on the net to use such language or cause harm through intent. I suggest you go look for them and relieve your frustrations over there, not here.
It really wasn't for your benefit, because I knew you wouldn't care
___You are correct, I don’t care one iota as to what you have to say when you spread the garbage you have spread in the last few posts
As I said, I'm quite happy to let the posts all speak for themselves.
___Then please keep them to yourself. It is too bad you haven’t mentioned one piece of information in regards to the Prius in quite a while? Maybe you should consider this as I can just imagine what mrv’s data has to do with your “pathological hatred” of anything?
___And back to our regularly scheduled programming
http://www.bankrate.com/nsc/news/auto/20030312a1.asp
___I wonder what the 04 Prius would do as I believe they were testing the 03 in the same tests?
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Telling me to keep them to myself is at best a non-sequitur.
That's why I haven't 'mentioned anything in regard to the prius', because the defense rested. There's nothing more to say and the posts speak volumes. There's no need to get drawn into your usual illogical [non-permissible content removed] for tat exchanges because I'm not talking to you, but to the other readers here.
And I know you delight in driving people away from the forums here with your attacks. I suppose it allows you to believe you 'won' in some way. But, rest assured that I'll continue to post when and where I wish in spite of your 'suggestions' that everyone who disagrees with you go away.
Until I next feel the need to set the record straight, adieu.
___Your true colors have already been seen shining through
“his fallacious” “your fallacy” and now “pathological hatred”
___Come to think about it, I don’t ever remember personally attacking you other then deflecting some of your style directed towards me. Do you have a problem? If so, help is available from any other number of venues and a forum discussing automobiles is not one of them Please feel free to add anything else of the nature posted above for all of us to enjoy. As it stands, I still have not seen you personally attack the poster of the TMC data and she is the one that I quoted directly from? Personal attacks need not apply but you may continue at your leisure. Then again, the defense rested some time ago according to you? Or did it? I am also sure we all would like to add a few more choice words to our everyday use vocabulary I do hope that you don’t use that kind of language or tone in your work place as I am almost positive your comrades would most appreciate it. If you work at all that is ;-)
___And back to our regularly scheduled programming
___There is a real mileage database that some here might consider useful in their choice of Hybrid or std. ICE based automobile(s)? You can find it at http://www.greenhybrid.com/compare/mileage/
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
When did this become Ford Focus vs. hybrids? I do believe the purpose is to compare the American approach of technology to Japan's technology.
offensive to everyone's intelligence. The negativity toward others and hidebound automotive opinions are bittering the Town Hall experience.
___I am surprised the Hosts let personal attacks (hidden or otherwise) run amok like they do as well At least I don’t aspire to the low down name calling and if it was hidden (yours certainly is not), I don’t know what to say.
___Can you make a case as to the Focus’ lack of utility, cleanliness, or performance against any hybrid available? Ford is a US company using a Mazda designed engine from a block of an old US standby that is not only as clean or cleaner then any of Hybrid’s available, it is much more powerful As the thread is entitled: “Japan goes Tech, US goes ICE! Who's really winning??”. I would say Ford has one nice setup sitting in the US’ corner. And the extended warranty it comes with as std. here in Chicago is 5 Yr./100,000 miles The US’ best to date is up against Japan’s best to date. Just because they happen to be the 04 PZEV based Focus and 04 Prius wasn’t up to you or I. Did you have another US automobile you might want to place up against Japan’s Prius Hybrid?
___Wayne R. Gerdes
If that is the case and they sell well, I guess this thread's title will become obsolete in a sense! As for the hemi, though, what will the Chrysler group do? I am betting what they WON'T do is stop offering that big brute of a V-8. It has a name that is worth something in annual sales.
They are saying that rising fuel prices will cause a consumer squawk this year resulting in pressure on Congress to raise CAFE standards quickly, and the automakers will be forced to go along....but I have my doubts, as Automotive News reports today that light truck sales continued to climb in the last quarter despite the steep increase in gas prices during the same time period.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
And, frankly, there's no incentive for lawmakers in Washington to make such a change. The auto lobby is large and powerful, and will always oppose such changes. Voting for a hike in CAFE standards won't win any of these folks enough votes back in their district for it to matter, since the overall economy and terrorism/war appear to be the hot issues right now. Environmental issues are a non-starter this election season, I think.
Now, that said, I think there is a strong contingent of U.S. carbuyers who really do care--but it's not the majority of the market, at least not yet. Might be different if gas goes to $3/gallon everywhere, but the current leadership will tap the strategic reserves and cut gas tax before that happens.
Oh, and since the Focus, no matter how wonderful it is or is not, is NOT a hybrid, can we PLEASE stop talking about it?
DrFill
It is possible that gas will rise to $3/gallon in the next year, but I have strong doubts it will do it by this summer as everyone is saying.
Doc, the title has changed, but I think I know what you meant - Japan went high-tech fuel miser, domestics went low-tech, huge-power. Right?
It is hard to assess the true sales success of the Prius because Toyota has limited its supply and waiting lists will turn many buyers off. The hemi-equipped cars and trucks will be the most successful trim lines of their respective models, I am sure. Chrysler has claimed it realizes its previous mistake in bringing all the most expensive trims of Pacifica to market first, and thus killing their launch. But I still bet they will bring PLENTY of 300C (hemi-powered) cars to market early on. "I want a hemmm--ay (cough, spit)"
:-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
___And how :-(
http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/E-TOYOTA-Sequoia-04.htm
http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/E-TOYOTA-LandCruiser-04.htm
http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/E-TOYOTA-4Runner-04.htm
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Maybe Ford has begun to try.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
http://commerce.senate.gov/hearings/120601Cohen.pdf
At 22.7 mpg, Toyota's CAFE for their truck fleet is well above the current average. With new engines, hybrid power, and more cross-over vehicles they are certain to increase that average. Plus Toyota has gobs of credits to spend.
Both of these companies have a pretty strong manufacturing base here in the US. If a raise in CAFE standards puts the squeeze on the Big 2.5, why wouldn't they support it?
Brilliant move giving it cylinder deactivation. But they might have to cut back on how many cars it goes into.
At the last series of hearings on CAFE, Toyota was right by GM's and Ford's sides lobbying against increased standards. Something which doesn't usually make the "green" hype in Toyota's PR packet! :-P
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Accord Hybrid is likely to use 3.0 liter V6 that Honda has been selling in Japan for months.
Here is a video of the engine.
Of course, that engine isn't mated to electric motor in that video.
But really it's the credits that matter. Toyota won't pay a gas guzzler penalty for years. Should they decide to push for higher mpg regs, they can afford it. The Big 2.5 cannot.
I expect the reason why Honda turned about face on the issue is because they know the technology is there. With hybrids, advancements in VTEC, and variable cylinder management, they have little to fear from CAFE. If that's true, it's only a matter of time before Toyota takes the same route.
All of the LX cars use Mercedes suspension componentry, and abs and traction control too, IIRC. And the Hemi models use Benz trannies. There might be enough other things in there to allow them to fall through that same loophole.
-juice
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Doesn't Ford own this name? They used it as a Fairmont model in the '80s.
Autoweek has an autofile this week on the PZEV Focus, and in it is confirmed what I suspected before: there are no 2.0L Foci sold in California as of 2004. Therefore, ALL Focus sold in California now are PZEV. Which probably means they are only running that "green" commercial in California, too.
Interestingly, that article also confirms that the 2.3 in the Mazda3s and the Escape are NOT PZEV...only the Focus has the extra emissions hardware...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Ford's been floating that Futura name for years, like advertising a baseball card for sale Ma threw in the garbage years ago!
Good Job!
DrFill
In an interesting side note, the Smog Index of a HEMI-equipped Chrysler 300C is 0.9 (on a scale of zero to one, with one being the most polluting), whereas the average new vehicle has a Smog Index of 0.8.
-- Mark
A mainstream engine like that 2.3l can have a lot of market penetration, much more than hybrids (right now, anyway). If they made that engine standard in the Focus I bet it would outsell any hybrid immediately.
-juice
And again, it's not instead of a hybrid, it's along with hybrids. The more options, the better.
-juice
I guess that's why the 3 has 10 or 15 extra horsepower.
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/cafe/overview.htm
I'll add that parts made in Mexico have been considered "domestic" since NAFTA.
http://www.ita.doc.gov/td/auto/cafe.html