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Hemi vs. Hybrid! Japan goes Tech, US goes ICE! Who's really winning??
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With half the mileage, of course.
___The Focus has ~ 65% of the mileage of a Prius
Mileage: C/D observed:
04 Prius: 42 mpg
04 Focus PZEV Wagon: 27 mpg
http://caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=7- 701&page_number=4
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=16&article- _id=7872&page_number=2
___And the Prius has ~ 65% of the performance of course. It is disastrously much worse when the Prius’ pack isn’t anywhere near full SOC however :-(
___And what about that $4,500 - $11,000 with less personal luxury?
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
BTW, PZEV isn't a big deal anymore. Honda Accord (in CA, ofcourse) sells rated as one (2.4 liter engine).
Check out the May MT Mag for a well-conceived mileage test of the two Prius models, the Civic HB, and the Insight. The test there should give you better....Insight on actual mileage numbers.
The Prius tested at over 51 MPG. It was a broken-in car, with 12000 miles on it. New cars may not as efficient to start.
Xcel
Focus DOES NOT, AND WILL NOT be 65% more luxurious than a Prius, this coming from someone who SOLD New Focuses! If anything, the Prius has many more tangible luxuries, plus leagues better refinement, than any Focus.
And the Focus may have 20% better performance (0-60 in 8 secs as opposed to ten for Prius), but not 65%, let's keep one foot in reality.
DrFill
If Prius is getting 42 mpg, Toyota needs to realize that.
___No, you need to realize that. Toyota actually doesn’t give a damn what you think as long as you pony up the cash
BTW, PZEV isn't a big deal anymore. Honda Accord (in CA, ofcourse) sells rated as one (2.4 liter engine).
___Actually, there are a plenty more PZEV’s available then just an Accord
http://www.zevinfo.com/en/gv/vsearch/cleansearch_result.asp?vehic- letypeid=16
___Even the Prius experts are shocked at the availability of automobiles that are as clean as the Prius but perform so much better and for much lower costs.
___As for who is buying what, think about the 15 mpg you will be or are receiving over and above a run of the mill PZEV based Focus driver. You may not want to contemplate the $4,500 - $11,000 more you are or did spend for that 15 mpg. Especially since your Prius doesn’t have leather, heated, height adjustable seats, a telescopic wheel, or even a lowly MP3 player Heaven forbid, don’t even consider the fact that you will be or are driving one of the slowest automobiles being discussed in the Hybrid threads as well as one that handles at best, “Mediocre”.
___The choice is most certainly yours. I just hope you chose wisely as the years and miles roll on by ;-)
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
And Focus sales continue their free-fall!
___How many Focus sold last year vs. how many Prius’ have sold in the last 7 years worldwide? I believe its ~ 75,000 Prius’ in the last 4 here in the US anyway
Check out the May MT Mag for a well-conceived mileage test of the two Prius models, the Civic HB, and the Insight. The test there should give you better....Insight on actual mileage numbers.
___And look at the performance of either of the Prius’ when the packs are at Full SOC and when they are drained. Oooppsss. Mind kicking out the slalom times, G’s on the pad, and ¼ times just for grins
Focus DOES NOT, AND WILL NOT be 65% more luxurious than a Prius, this coming from someone who SOLD New Focuses!
___I only told you about mileage and performance %’s. If you want to talk about luxury, heated leather, height adjustable seats come in most other luxury automobiles as well as the Focus I am speaking of How come not in the Prius that costs so much more? Oh yes, all that luxury you must be speaking of cannot be felt from the seat of the pants so to speak
And the Focus may have 20% better performance (0-60 in 8 secs as opposed to ten for Prius), but not 65%, let's keep one foot in reality.
___Would you mind quoting MT’s drained pack 0 - 60 time as well as the ¼ times for the Prius again? The Focus doesn’t slow down after a given period? So what % of performance does the 04 Prius have against a Focus under that condition? If you don’t always have a full SOC in a Prius, what kind of performance do you have on tap? Half way in between? Somewhere between ½ of drained and a Full SOC? Maybe you can enlighten us as to what MT’s tests showed?
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
As opposed to Prius, getting mid to high 40s in regular driving.
Oh yeah, and the rating on that Dodge Ram hemi? 11/16! :-)
Nice thing is that while many PZEVs are only available in automatic (ie the manual version of the same car is not PZEV-rated), you can get PZEV rating in the manual in both the Mazda and the Nissan. (And the Focus, if it comes to that).
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
M
And on the flip side, I don't think there is a four-cylinder car in the U.S. that can beat the Ram hemi to 60....except maybe the WRX/Evo/STi crew, and it's not like those are fuel economy champs.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I think that was the point of Honda showcasing the Dual Note in 2001. A sport sedan matching the Viper in acceleration, beating it in top speed, and capable of returning mileage that rivals Civic HX.
Suffice to say, 99% of owners won't get their battery below 50% depletion, with the proclivity for stop and go driving, and regenerative braking feeding the battery pack, most owners won't get slower than a 12 second time.
But a Prius with the warranty coverage of the driveline, DOUBLE the mileage of the Focus, FAR SUPERIOR quality and resale value, and higher levels of refinement and quality of materials, plus through in buckets of cachet over the Time Bomb Focus, and it is easily worth any premium.
The two cars are NOT comparable anyway!
I notice you HAVE TO go to worldwide sales, since a Cavalier can now outsell a Focus in the States! Prius is only sold in japan and the US, so what's your point there? The Focus is a worldwide sled? Ok, I'll go along with that.
I'd rather be an American Phenomenon than a Worldwide Time Bomb. The US buyer knows what's up. And so do I!.
DrFill
So that might be considered the green alternative to an SUV.
-juice
Between the stupid styling, the inconsistent power, the strange dash, the shoddy craftsmanship, and the more mainstream competition, the Focus is a tough sell. Keep in mind, a small, but not insignificant number of sales are fleet (10-15%). Considering the number of dealerships and marketing, and incentives laid on the car, it is not a great seller here in the States.
You never get a second chance to make a first impression! I still have night terrors about that impression.
I think the wheels are supposed to stay on the car? Let me check with my Manager on that.
DrFill
Careful you don't grind your axe down to the nub.
robert: problem with Dual Note is that as nice as it is (and BOY is it nice!), it would sell at about $1.4 million if they were to put it out there today. I thought this topic was more in the context of what is going on today...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Where did you get your '04 resale value figures?
I respectfully submit that we won't know if the Prius is worth the premium to the general public until we know the full ownership costs of the car over it's lifetime. That's the problem with new technology; unlike ICE, there is too little data to predict.
Of course, EVERYONE buys a car because that model has what he/she wants, so ANY permium may be acceptable to you. Don't tell the salesman that though...
Those PZEV Outbacks make 163hp. Other models will make 168hp for 2005 (2.5l base engine).
It's nice to see other PZEV options pop up, like that Outback, the Focus 2.3l, the Mazda3 2.0l, some Sentras, etc.
Here is a topic for debate: will these PZEVs take away some of the lime light enjoyed by the hybrids? Some might consider them a viable alternative (I certainly would).
-juice
You make a good point. The thing to remember is that the Prius apparently won't give the really high numbers unless carefully driven. If you drive it like a normal ICE (and like most Americans seem to accelerate), it will get mileage similar to the 42 MPG reported by C&D.
The smaller cars will get about 1/2 that in the same use, perhaps a bit better.
In town, the Prius holds an advantage, however on the highway the advantage may shrink somewhat as the smaller ICE cars get better mileage.
RE:Clean. We should remember that while the PZEV is cleaner that normal ICE, it still burns more gas than the Prius. Environmentally, this has to cost more to produce, at the very least.
I drove the Prius and it seemed small for my family's purposes, our Legacy wagon has substantially more cargo capacity. I liked it a lot, don't get me wrong, I just wish it were a wagon instead of a hatchback.
I would consider a Highlander hybrid next time around because that model is big enough for us. Maybe an Escape if it proves reliable.
-juice
The May issue of CR tested the Prius against several midsize sedans including the 4 cyl. 'Bu.
The 'Bu won the 0-60 dash (vs. Prius) 10.1 to 10.5 sec. The Prius won the mpg war 44 to 24. The Toyota was about $1100 spendier (yes, I agree, retail doesn't mean squat.) which many would, and do, gladly pay (or more) for Toyota Quality.
Honestly, I don't care what the EPA numbers are a 20mpg advantage over a car it is otherwise competitive with is awful good. And I think Doc Fill is correct that most owners of Prii will not have problems with battery depletion/acceleration drops. I will say that in a mountainous area it could be a problem.
I'm also increasingly convinced that the Prius is profitable for Toyota. After seeing the transmission/electric motor unit (it is very simple) in cutaway at the Chicago show I would not be surprised if the entire trans/motor, regen braking, battery & electronics package for the Prius is cheaper than a modern automatic trans of conventional design. It is certainly FAR less complex mechanically and modern automatics have plenty of electronic controls also.
wimsey: while Prius will sell at sticker for a little while longer (until the wait lists are gone), Malibu already has a $1750 cash incentive that will go up rapidly, I would expect. So the real-world price of the malibu you mentioned will be thousands less than the Prius. But the equipment level is also not the same.
I am VERY curious to see what the competition looks like once there is a hybrid full-size pick-up (Tundra might be the first one after it goes full-size in '06) - then there will be a head-to-head (hemi-to-hybrid) comparison to be made as to sales. The only other vehicles with a hemi are the Durango and the 300C, right? There is no full-size car like the 300 to compare to for hybid, but I guess once the Pilot hybrid gets out there, there will be a sorta-kinda comparison for the Durango.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Maxx4me-That's cool. My point wasn't that the Prius was better as a car, the score was so close (Prius by a nose) that one could certainly call it a virtual tie. I think the Maxx's (I believe the Maxx retails a good bit above the Prius, right) interior versatility is pretty slick myself, if that wets your whistle I think it is a good choice. It hits your hot button. Personally I think it is the only Malibu that gives a compelling reason for consumers to chose it (other than bowtie fever);-). The standard 'Bu is OK but it has no real area of excellence that says "buy me", the Maxx does.
If I were looking for a new midsize today I would
probably chose a Mazda 6 (wagon? I like sporty wagons.). I think the Accord is almost certainly the best all around (seems to win every comparison easily) but I love the Mazda's handling. Thats my hot button. Mazda gave people a compelling reason to look at something beside a Camcord also. Like it's styling also, I don't care for the Accord, Camry or Malibu (either version). Personal taste.
The V6 is a lot quicker, though. A lot.
-juice
Problems? Most protos seem to produce 50-60% of the power that an equivalent gas engine will and storage, production and delivery of hydrogen will need a lot of work.
ateix-resale is a good point, also the incentives have to bite into profits at the rate they are going. Even GM can only buy market share for so long.
Some of the US automakers (I believe it was Ford) are thinking it might be better in the interim just to run a conventional ICE on hydrogen as a fuel.
RE:Prius vs. Regular car
I don't think the Prius enthusiasts want to go there. Compared to a regular car it is way more expensive, and that money won't be recouped over the normal ownership life of the car. The Prius is unique, and you have to want to pay the premium.
Another thing we should keep in mind is that as the weight of the vehicle goes up, the MPG goes down. So while the upcoming SUV hybrids will do better than their ICE only counterparts (and any change is good), they will not see the really large MPGs in the 40's during normal use. I bet the Highlander will average in the mid 20's when C&D checks it out.
How well it sells depends upon two things:
1) the cost premium over normal ICE and
2) How much the hybrid technology adds to performace (or at least matches performance)
Define a regular car.
So 0-60 time trials and slalom runs are the new standards to be used for calculating a vehicles average gas milage??
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Unfortunately for hybrids, us Americans (and to a larger extent, Canadians) are very spread out compared to most other countries. We have alot of highways where we can cruise at a constant speed for large amounts of time. Although the electric system wouldn't help in this case, the smaller engine would. We can agree that for the most part, a smaller engine will be more efficient (MPG-wise) at a constant speed than a larger engine, right?
I can see hybrids being used as a family's city driver. I especially like how the Prius can go purely electric power up until 35 MPH before having to turn on the gas engine to supply additional power. I hope that Honda will do the same with their system too.
Sorry, I don't see where you are coming from. No offense intended. The Prius IS priced similarly to it's competition with no greater premium than one expects for a Toyota vs. Chevy and will probably be reflected in resale gains, therefore no price disadvantage. It IS competitive as a midsize sedan/hatch, you could argue it is not a class leader, but it is better than some competitors without considering mileage, a solid mid-pack offering. The 20 mpg extra is gravy right from the start.
I realize that some still contend that the car is heavily "subsidized" by Toyota which I related my doubts on (more in a moment). And from the consumers perspective the answer is "so what?". He gets a good car at a good price and great mileage. No penalty, no amortization period at all. Zip, zero, nada. OK, I'm getting carried away on the negative emphasis.
The aspect of the Toyota hybrid system that many seem to miss is that they have not merely "added complexity" to a vehicle. They have substituted one complex system (elect. motor/regen/trans/battery) for another (conventional auto trans.). I have a good understanding of the mechanical complexity of an auto trans, I think they are typically more complex than the vehicle engine. Toyota uses the electric motor in conjunction with an extremely simple planetary gearset to produce a very simple CVT, far simpler than the belt style. I admit that I don't have a parts count comparison but I feel very confident that the mechanical complextity of the Prius' e-motor/regen/trans is actually signifigantly less than the auto trans in a Camry, Accord or Malibu. Possibly a multiple less (half, third, quarter?). As a mechanical engineer, when I saw how they integrated the system to reduce complexity I was in awe, blown away. IMHO, it is a brilliant piece of work.
I admit that I don't have any decent comparison on the electrical control complexity, but keep in mind that modern auto trans have plenty of electonics also. Also, while electronics are expensive to replace they are usually pretty inexpensive to make. Keep in mind that Toyota is probably the best in the world at per vehicle profit, and only they and Honda really know what those batteries etc. cost to make in volume.
It would not surprise me at all to learn that the Prius is not just profitable but is competitively profitable.
Sorry if I was lengthy, I felt the subject confusing enough to merit it.
I know there's going to be a bunch of replies of all the advanced/great features of the Prius that justify the price, but all most families care about are size (can it haul all my kids and their stuff), power, safety, and reliability. Size and power the Prius does not have. Safety I guess, but there will be people who worry about that battery. Reliability - again, it may actually be reliable, but people are going to worry about bringing it into their neighborhood mechanic. And if they have to bring it to a Toyota dealer, I guarantee maintenance on this thing won't be cheap. People worry about buying the first of anything. Maybe by 2010 these fears will fall by the wayside, but until then ...
First, the Prius does have good power. Gen1's power was adequate, but Gen2's has been touted by every magazine review I've seen.
Second, justification for the Prius is NOT just fuel economy, or Toyota would never have bothered to develop the technology -- it's California emissions, which at the time Toyota started the project, threatened to hit carmakers with huge fines if they didn't have a certain percentage of zero-emission cars on the road.
Third, Californians have been waiting, and finally have hope for, an amendment to the rules regarding use of the car-pool lanes. There is presently a bill in the Cal State legislature which would allow hybrids into the lanes. This is a huge lifestyle improvement for thousands of Californians who have to contend with rush hour traffic. If it passes, I predict there will be a run on Priuses and every other available hybrid.
Second- Then what about a cheaper alternative of PZEV Ford Focus, SULEV II. It this was really Toyota's sole goal then they would have stuck with EV and worked on better batteries. Also, the Prius is sold worldwide 130,000 with the USA and California specifically only getting 1/3 (46,000) of the total cars.
Third-Maybe so.
When you pay $3000 more for a hybrid, vs. a similar conventional car, if you keep it 5 years or less (like most americans) then you'll get maybe half of that back.
In the state of MD, you can get up to $2000 in tax credits, up to 5% of the purchase price. For a Prius that means $1000-1250 or so.
So if you look at TCO for 3-5 years, resale and credits like the one in MD could actually put you ahead.
Keep in mind I'm not even factoring in gas mileage. So let's do that now. Even in CR's tests, which didn't have the Prius doing as well as you might expect, you're still saving about $500 per year if you drive 15k miles per year. Let's say you drive less, even, you'd still save about $350 or so. Per year.
So keep it for 5 years, that's another $1750 in savings. That would easily more than offset the increased service cost.
When you add these things up it might even make sense financially, in terms of TCO.
I'm not saying they're for everyone, just don't dismiss them based on sticker price alone.
-juice
As for loss of battery power, my buddy has never had a problem with it, so I don't know how common it is. And if you choose to disagree with the various reviews I've read, that's certainly your choice -- and mine to take their word over yours. Ain't freedom great? =D
I respectfully disagree with you on the other points.
For everyone else I-95 is like a parking lot. Be sure to wave at all the sports cars you blow by.
-juice
The main problem is that it's a 24/7 HOV lane, so even a 3:00 on Sunday morning, it's still in effect. The main problem I notice is that on the weekends, the left-lane campers are now much more prevalent, probably because they're thinking that faster cars can just go past in the HOV lane. Which, legally, they can't do unless they have enough occupants (I think it's only 2 occupants, though). And of course, you have people who aren't going to put up with it, so they just blow past in the HOV lane, anyway.
In general, it's just leading to more roadhogs during normally light traffic periods, and causing a lot more people to be constantly jumping lanes. Let those Priuses in the HOV lane, and on a few of the long, uphill grades, it'll only make things worse! ;-)
Aren't there already long waiting lists for them?
It actually helps me, we go to the beach a lot and the car has 4-5 occupants when we do, so I can use that lane.
I wish it went farther east! All the way to the bridge!
-juice
I really dunno if I'd buy a Prius if I needed another 4-door sedan, although the diamond-lane thing really is attractive here in LA. I agree that a good, economical car like a Corolla or any of its competitors will probably save you nearly as much gas as the Prius and save you a few thou on the purchase price (say 18k vs 21k). But the interior of the Prius has been touted as being as roomy as a Camry, so maybe it really is a viable choice for a typical family car.
Of course, in the rest of the world, Corolla-sized cars ARE the family car. Here we drive SUVs because....well, just because!!
It might help the people who can use it during rush hour, but any other time, I think it's just more trouble than it's worth. Honestly, I'd rather see them try doing something like extending the Metro out to Bowie, or maybe even Annapolis.
To me, at least, shoulder room is what really makes a car feel expansive, but the Prius is narrow enough that I'd only consider it to be a 4-passenger car. To my outdated way of thinking, a midsized car would have about 56-60 inches of shoulder room, where a full-sized should have 60+ (even though some older so-called "full-sized" cars weren't that wide. For example, the '58 Chevy was only about 58" wide inside)
I think you also have a point that many will be apprehensive of buying new technology, though the reliability data so far has been excellent for both the Toyota and Honda systems (and I noted that you were not attacking that).
But what lofty price tag on the Prius? The original WAS an expensive COMPACT. No question about that. The NEW Prius is competitvely priced as a MIDSIZE. Note the $1100 dollar retail difference between the Prius and Malibu in the CR tested I noted a while earlier. And as Ateixeira noted earlier there is a tax credit that offsets that. We could wrangle about the optional equuipment but the Prius won the comparison vs. the Malibu, however they are equipped. It is competitive.
It was the slowest accelerating in the test but the margin was small. All but one car (Galant 0-60, 9.1 sec) were over 10 sec to 60 and the spread was 10.1 to 10.5sec. Is that significant in that class? I doubt it.
As has also been noted, a malibu will get incentives breaks vs. the prius. But it will vs. any Toy or Honda or Nissan for that matter. And does anyone have any real doubts which car will have better resale?
I do respectfully resubmit that the Prius is a competitve, but not class leading (I would say the same about the Malibu) midsize sedan, it is competitvely priced and it's power is competitve in it's class (this is not about Prius vs. Malibu BTW, it is just a handy comparison from the May CR test).
Price competitive. Car competitve.
Therefore I stand by my previous contention that the extra 20 mpg is a benefit to the owner from day one. And as I did note earlier, for some that will be important others not. I'm cool with that. It's not my top prority either, I like the Mazda 6 for it's driving dynamics. Different strokes...
And please, let's not have anyone (that is NOT directed at you mirth) whining about bias in testing at CR. Their recent reaction to the GM vehicles like the Malibu, SRX and CTS have been positive and are very similar to those of other testers. Like every other person on the planet they have biases but that excuse to cover some company's mediocrity is worn out. Lame. Pathetic.
So there you have my thoughts. Again. Ad infinitum. Ad nauseum. Cheerio! ;-D