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Porsche Panamera (4 door sedan)

highenderhighender Posts: 1,365
edited June 2014 in Porsche
Porsche has made it clear it will use the V8 developed for the Cayenne and place it in either a 2+2 coupe or 4 door sedan.... I think it will fill a gap for the sport sedan /coupe niche. What do you think ?
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Comments

  • sure, why not? maserati has the quattroporte, aston martin had the lagonda, so why not porsche?
    bring it on, zuffhausen!
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    There is no way Porsche is going to make a sedan. Yes this same thing was said about the Cayenne, but a sedan is just too much. They better not!

    I expect a 2+2 GT to take on various Bentley, Aston-Martin, and Ferrari "GT" cars.

    Aston and Maserati have a tradition of having a sedan, Porsche doesn't.

    What's next? A Ferrari SUV?

    Porsche better stay true here and bring out a 928 type car, not a sedan!!!

    The funny part is that knowing how the Germans feel about other Germans invading their special segments, like MB did with the A-Class, which caused VW to do the Phaeton.......BMW, MB and Audi won't take it sitting down if Porsche does do a sedan, they'll start building 911 competitors left and right. Audi already intends to do this with the LeMans Quattro. BMW and Mercedes will have to build a true 911 competitor if Porsche does this...the German's competitiveness won't allow anything less.

    M
  • so maybe this would be a good thing then?
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 35,964
    might not be bad if they did a variation on the RX-8 theme (sports car/coupe with an actually usable back seat). Kind of a "grown up" 911 with the engine in the front.

    2019 Acura TLX A-spec 4 cyl. (mine), and 2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD (wife's)

  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    You mean Porsche doing another GT type car like the 928 or the outbreak of competition between the German brands??

    A few hours earlier I received a new issue of Autoweek and on the cover is a mid-engine sports car from Mercedes for 2008 to do battle with the 360 Modena, Ford GT, Lambo Gallardo etc etc, also built built with help from MB's F1 partner McLaren. This car (if built) will undoubtedly do battle with the next generation 911. Seems the Germans are already doing the latter of the two scenarios huh?

    M
  • highenderhighender Posts: 1,365
    yes, I see your point.

    since others are making sports cars, albeit not direct 911 competitors, then maybe Porsche can or should do a 2+2 sport coupe. They may even do a sedan ?

      It seems they always wanted to do a replacement for the 928....a grand touring 2+2 coupe...

    But a sedan......ummmm...that would capture some or the older affluent empty nesters, the bulk of the baby boomers...
  • highenderhighender Posts: 1,365
    so if the battle is already on......at least clandestinely in the project rooms and boardrooms., then maybe Porsche should do a sedan and a 2+2 coupe. Try to maintain market share...

    But would it dilute the brand ?

    Would the thousands of retiring baby boomers (I hear that there are 5000 of them retiring every day ?) want to buy a more practical sporty Porsche, or want the purist 911 ?

    Is there a need to have a 928 replacement ?

    what do you guys think ?
  • i think porsche has surprised even people like me with their good reliability ratings of late and willingness to tackle their competitors head on. i know i was very apprehensive about the cayenne when i first heard about it, but people seem to like it.

    i think a fwd grand touring car with completely different styling than the 911/boxster egg shape would be exciting. it would add a new dimension to their line-up, that's for sure. i think a sleek 2+2 or sportwagon (shooting brake for you british types) like the RX-8 or the alfa romeo 156 sportwagon could work.

    i'm not so sure about a full sedan like the maserati quattroporte though. i guess if porsche wants to stay alive like bmw they're going to have to grow or die. maybe a sleek sedan isn't such a bad idea. even if we never buy one, it'll sure make for good reading and gawking! ha ha!
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I personally think Porsche does need to do another GT car. The Ferrari 612 Scagletti, Bentley Continental GT, and Mercedes CL65 AMG all need to be answered, since these heavy "GT" cars are able to readily outrun most 911s. I see the Porsche GT being like the 612, lighter than the others in the class (the Bentley is obese) and able to outperform them with less power.

    M
  • highenderhighender Posts: 1,365
    of you....it would be nice for Porsche to answer the sport sedans with one of its own...

    However, would it dilute the name brand, any more than the Cayenne ? I guess it may not....since it is just really updating the 928...though there are a lot of people angry at the 928 also.

      Should it be the fastest sedan on the market, or just be fast enough....ala Jaguar XJR ?
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    Maybe Porsche has seen an opportunity to invade the BMW space given Mr. Bangle's decimation of the BMW sedan lineup. I for one would love the option of replacing my E39 5-Series with a Porsche RWD sedan with a V8 and a 6-Speed manual. Drool, slobber. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • highenderhighender Posts: 1,365
    yeah, I think it would be great for a rwd GT sedan with 300 to 450 hp....but weighs less than 3400 lbs...that would make it a great performer..

    but it has to be priced right....around 60K to 90K.....IMO>
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    I don't think Porsche can do it with sports cars alone. Cayenne is saving them. There's no reason to believe they can't do it with a sedan.

    The 928 had nothing to offer enthusiasts and couldn't garner new buyers. Which market could it steal buyers from? Please, not another one.

    Give the world a Porsche that can fit four full size human beings comfortably, outperform every sedan out there with just a hint of luxury and it could bring a herd over from all corners of the performance/luxury sedan world.

    Anything they can possibly do to save themselves and their venerable sports cars gets my vote.

    Just the thought of the release of a Porsche performance sedan with their hallmark minimal styling pushes all of my car thrill buttons. I can almost visualize it.
  • speeds2muchspeeds2much Posts: 164
    Ever since Porsche announced development of the Cayenne, I've wondered why the company didn't simply leverage the 996 platform and build a sedan, preferably with an AWD version. That would pull in the Porschephiles who wanted a Porsche but needed real 4-seat capacity and a decent trunk, without taking money away from racing and sports car development. I'm not sure the Cayenne has "legs," especially if the economy turns south again.

    Anyway, like designman, I can almost picture the sedan and I bet it will be a truly desirable car.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    I often wonder how long this SUV phenomena is going to last. There's just so much excess. Then again sports/performance cars fall into the same category. What's also interesting is the plight of German cars. You have to wonder if platform diversity is necessary for survival and how Porsche plans to deal with it.

    Speeds2much, I hope things are going well and that this fall brings a lot of 997 ownership chat from you. Be careful of those FMY issues though.
  • highenderhighender Posts: 1,365
    it seems like the SUV craze will die down a bit , especially among the people who just bought it for the style, instead of the utility.

    sports sedans are still good.
    sports station wagons are going strong
    sports coupes are making a comeback...

    I just feel that Porsche is reacting to the market, and doing it really late (always late to the party), instead of being the innovative, benchmark setting , auto maker...

    Can they get their act together sooner ??

    They should know that a lot of sports 4 door sedan buyers are going to get the BMW740, Maserati, etc...and hold on to those cars for a few years....
  • steven2steven2 Posts: 37
    Why could Porsche not put out a sedan that would compete with an M5 or a Mercedes E AMG? They could offer better performance while sacraficing a little interior quality, for roughly the same price as those two.
  • speeds2muchspeeds2much Posts: 164
    Yep, designman, you make a good point on the practicality of SUVs vs sports cars. On my scale of practical vs excess, the Cayenne just falls off the chart on the excess side, whereas a Boxster or 996 justifies itself simply because it's so fun (more so than any truck would be). For those few who own a Cayenne because they wanted a Porsche but needed the space, too bad Porsche isn't building them a sedan, eh?

    Anyway, the 997 is on my radar screen. I can't predict whether I'll order one this year. Depends on my trading account, because I would not buy a car at that price if I had to make the payments out of ordinary income. Would want to put a huge chunk down or pay cash. So maybe this year, maybe next...but some day... :o))
  • sphinx99sphinx99 Posts: 776
    Porsche sedan: I think it's a great idea!
  • highenderhighender Posts: 1,365
    think a sedan or grand touring car would be about right for the changed market....I think Porsche should make a very fluid , very sensual, yet roomy sedan ....looks should be very high on the list of goals....;-)
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    This link appeared in another thread and got my heart pumping. Amazing how it looks almost exactly how I imagined it. The poster said Porsche is actually considering it but didn't give any info. Comments? Personally, I'm drooling.

    http://ww.autobild.de/projektor/projektor.php?artikel_id=6053&amp- ;amp- ;pos=1
  • speeds2muchspeeds2much Posts: 164
    For those of you who can get ahold of the July 2004 issue of Car, there are two artist's renditions of the proposed Porsche sedan on pages 14-15.

    It essentially looks like a stretch 997, although the front fascia is slightly different. There's a horizontal air intake between the front edge of the "bonnet" lid and bumper assembly, and the front airdam looks more wide-open, like the mouth of a lion. ;o)

    The article mentions Porsche's dilemma of whether to produce a sedan or a bargain-basement, 4-cylinder roadster (the little black and white rendition reminds me of a leaner version of the BMW Z3.

    The sedan is really exactly what I had in mind, and what I hoped for on these boards, so I must say I like it. Basically, it's without a doubt a classic Porsche shape and it probably can utilize the 997 platform without much difficulty, saving development time and costs. Personally, I think Porsche should go with a sedan first, and maybe never build the 4-banger. The history of capitalism (and Porsche) is littered with the remains of once-mythic brands that lose something when they get greedy for volume.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Speeds2much, thanks, will check that out. In the meantime the link in post #24 isn't working... got corrupted somehow. Here it is again:

    http://www.autobild.de/projektor/projektor.php?artikel_id=6053&am- p;am- p;pos=1
  • speeds2muchspeeds2much Posts: 164
    Nice link, Designmen. While I didn't compare the pics side-by-side, I think the pictures you unearthed are the same as the ones in Car.
  • highenderhighender Posts: 1,365
    while I like the concept of a 4 seater with a V8, I did not expect to see such close resemblance to the 993-997 . I was expecting something of a morph of the old 928 with 996/997 with some design cues from the Maserati/Feerari sedans....

    I like the one you guys posted, but think that the design should be even more exclusive. Remember the complaints about how the boxster and 911 front end looking virtually identical ? I think there should be design cues that identify it instantly as a Porsche, but without so much similarities that it steals from its own customer base(i.e. the 911 fans) without opening new territoties. Any idea whether the design we saw is still fluid, or is it in stone ?
  • speeds2muchspeeds2much Posts: 164
    highlander...The article in Car said that Porsche hasn't even decided whether to build a sedan or an entry-level roadster. The pic was only a drawing. So, I think we can conclude there's room for changes.

    You're right I think...it should be more svelte like a Maserati. Neverthless, at least a "stretch 997" would be better than a shrunken Cayenne. ;o)
  • highenderhighender Posts: 1,365
    agree , and I am a die hard Cayenne owner too.... :)

    Do you think they should have 4 doors, or just 2 , like the 928 ?
  • highenderhighender Posts: 1,365
    I think they(porsche) are already forming the design elements now...maybe they have many drawings and clay models already too.

    I'm on my 3rd Porsche now...and still have not had a 911...maybe when the kids grow up.... :(

    what car do you have, speeds2much ?
  • steven2steven2 Posts: 37
    This does not look at all like a luxuy sedan. It looks like an extended 911 with 4 doors- essentially a big hatchback. Maserati didn't have to use a coupe rear to make their sedan. Porsche really must be stuck on coupes-only.
  • highenderhighender Posts: 1,365
    had a article with a sketch that looked like a cross between a 928, a Nissan 300ZX, and 911.

    I think they should go for the sedan, if there is a market. Of course, part of the joy of owning a Porsche is the sports car aspect of it. There are lots of luxury sports cars., so I hope they make one that looks sexy, powerful and stylish....a real head turner... !!
  • speeds2muchspeeds2much Posts: 164
    highender...I'm driving a 2003 Jag X-type 2.5 with a 5-speed. The lease is up Sept 2005, so really I have no sense of urgency regarding a new car. While the car has been reliable and it gets better as it gets broken in, I'm sort of suffering with it. It just isn't pieced together in the way I expect of a $40,000 European sports sedan.

    Recently I changed career directions, including setting up a consulting business, so I've been a little cautious financially, but I'm giving serious consideration to buying a 997 coupe. Just returned from a four-day trip through New England and I was thinking the whole time what a great road car the Porsche would be....
  • highenderhighender Posts: 1,365
    Yeah...I had a 12 cylinder Jag XJ also,....and heard a lot of horror stories. Had some problems, relatively minor, but the car could not handle. The 300 hp felt like 200, and gas mileage was only 11 or 13 mpg. I mean , the style and prestige is there..."it is a JAG !" , but I think it was just not for me, at least for another 15 years.

    Sounds like you will be ready for the 997 in a year or two....good luck on your business, and may all the winds be behind you... :)
  • speeds2muchspeeds2much Posts: 164
    highender...Interesting comments on your XJ, confirming my suspicions. The X-type's deficiencies, e.g. noise, interior space, creaks, jerky handling, fuel economy have diminished my respect for the brand overall and had made me look at the XJ with a jaundiced eye. I really don't aspire to owning the higher models in the line after driving this Jag, which makes me realize that going downmarket is not necessarily the right way to hook people into a brand...it can backfire if not done right.

    Regarding the 997, there's an outside chance I'll order one this winter. Depends on how my business goes. One lingering question I'll throw out to the board...how durable do you expect a 997 to be, i.e. how many miles could be put on one, assuming synthetic oil, no track time, meticulous maintenance? I would think the body could go for hundreds of thousands of miles and last for 20 years or more. What about the engine, etc.? I'd want to purchase the car and keep it...aleady have it paid for before any future wife could say "no." lol
  • highenderhighender Posts: 1,365
    speeds2much:

    I do not know , but my guess would be that it would last a long time, since Porsches have a history of durability. They claim that over 67% of all Porsches EVER built are still road worthy and on the roads....

    again, good luck and have a great 4th...
  • highenderhighender Posts: 1,365
    porsche has not decided which way to proceed...but may not have a close derivative to 928...but may use the 911 platform....

    hope they get their act together...
  • highenderhighender Posts: 1,365
    says that Porsche is now really slow in developing the 4th model ,,.,...
    excluding the limited edition carrera super car.

    maybe a low end POrsche....one level lower than the boxster....

    or a very highend model....a $150,000 plus model....( no, the 911 turbo with X50 does not count). They have not entered this market yet...

    No 911 based 4 door or 928 substitute.... :(
  • SylviaSylvia Posts: 1,636
    Four-Door Porsche Sedan Set for Frankfurt Debut

    STUTTGART, Germany — Porsche will unveil a fifth model line, a luxury four-door coupe called the Panamera, at the Frankfurt auto show in September.

    Looking like a stretched 911, the Panamera will become Porsche's flagship, and will go head-to-head with the Mercedes-Benz CLS and the Maserati Quattroporte.

    The Panamera will go into production in 2008. It will be powered by the same 4.5-liter V8 engines found in the Cayenne SUV, in both 340-horsepower naturally aspirated form and 450-hp turbocharged form. And like the Cayenne, which shares running gear with the Volkswagen Touareg, the car could be built on a platform shared with VW. Read More >>

    image
  • highenderhighender Posts: 1,365
    nice pics, sylvia>>!

    I thought that Porsche and Weideking (CEO) said they would delay making a decision on which way to go until next year....

    but that was in a magazine...which we all know to be wrong sometimes....

    hmmm....if it looks like the picture, or some iteration close to it, I would not mind getting one...but would like to see the front and interior....
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Its too bad BMW and Mercedes don't have a true sports car on the level of the 911 because Porsche it appears is heading right for the heart of their business - sedans. CLS55, M5, RS6 lookout!

    I'm really curious to know what that Mclaren lineup of Mercedes sports cars would have looked liked. Oh well.

    Whats next for Porsche a crossover to tackle the Mercedes R-Class?

    M
  • I can't believe Porsche released an SUV before releasing a sedan. Anyway, this sedan was worth the wait. This sedan is the best looking model in the entire Porsche lineup. It's got sleek looks, and the performance to back it up. Watch out Mercedes CLS! Has pricing and performance been announced?
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    We're seeing photochops. Even if Porsche shows the concept this fall at Frankfurt, expect it to be different and then to undergo finer development with revisions. It's early in the game and I would be surprised to see it done before MY 2009.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    This year's Frankfurt "motor show" is shaping up to be the biggest in recent memory. I mean a new S-Class, a totally new model in concept form from Porsche. The last time Porsche did this, the Carrera GT was born, though at Paris in 2000. I gather we'll see the 3-Series Coupe and the Audi LeMans in production form? Should be a hell of a show.

    I doubt if the Porsche concept will look anything like that awful Carrera GT/Lexus GS looking thing floating around the net.

    M
  • highenderhighender Posts: 1,365
    the idea of a 4 seater, 4 door Porsche sedan....

    the CLS from mercedes is good looking...but hope the P will be better...

    I imagine a sedan with the V8 twin turbo will weigh about 4400 lbs....and cost around $85,000......since it would have less hardware than the cayenne...and the developemnt cost of the V8 had already been spread out.

    Did Porsche anounce that they wouold build this sedan ? Last months Motor Trend said that Prosche will decide if they will build it end of this year....
  • chris65amgchris65amg Posts: 372
    Large luxury sedans are a sticky wicket for automakers, if only because there are so many ways to approach them. You could make a big cushion like the LS430 or an ugly, albeit athletic 745. I really think that if Porsche can make this car reminiscient of the 911, then they'll be sold out fast. I don't really like the CLS, artially because it sounds like Cialis.

    "So what do you drive?"
    "A CLS 500"
    "Is that a NASCAR race?"

    Anyway, the Panamera sounds better rounded than the CLS, and in terms of performance, how much of a chance does a Mercedes stand against a Porsche? :D
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Two different design philosophies. As we know, MB is luxury plus point-and-shoot street torque. Porsche is a blend of road and track handling and speed. Will be interesting to see how Porsche sticks to its formula and just how much luxury will go into it. However it had better not be overpriced or it's going nowhere.

    It seems Porsche's financial strategies have worked in the last 10 years so I would expect this car to be well-calculated and targeted, not just an ego trip. If they overdo any aspect it could lose a lot of sales. The right blend of performance, luxury, size, price could really pickpocket the luxury makers—and what a coup that would be since they are not about luxury.

    They have to nail this from several angles if they want it to ring up the cash register IMO. Very hard to predict, not only from our side but especially theirs I would imagine. Would be nice to be a fly on the wall of their think tank to see what is transpiring with this car.

    I'm not getting my hopes up too much. In the end it may be too much for them to handle unless Toyota decides to be generous with their hybrid technology. You heard that right. It won't be long before hybrid will have come a long way from Prius.
  • chris65amgchris65amg Posts: 372
    Porsche is more about the driving than even BMW. I hope that they don't compromise this just because it's a big car.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I look at the top 3 Germans like this:

    Mercedes-Benz: ultimate power, luxury, comfort, safety, technology combined with best in class high-speed stability (especially AMGs) and timeless styling. Simply put the best darn luxury road car going today.

    BMW: ultimate handling, control, cutting edge design (for better or worse), a naturally aspirated engine and (engines period) expert, truly the ultimate driving machine. The ultimate in luxury cars if you really enjoy hard driving and even the occasional track experience. The biggest difference between MB and BMW for decades and probably always will be.

    Porsche: the scientific sports car. Precise, measured, calculating excellence, timeless design, dual-purpose street to track with no sweat. There really is no substitute.

    M
  • chris65amgchris65amg Posts: 372
    They're nice driver's cars, but there's something about Porsche that sets them in a higher tier than BMW IMO. Probably because Porsche is most meticulous making sure that everything performancewise is great. BMW has compromised (and forfeited, IMO) their spot as the world's best driving car because:

    iDrive My uncle got a 2004 760i with iDrive. He collects cars (lucky old man) He called me over so I could figure it out with him. I left with a headache. Now I have an excuse to ask to drive his 911, though :D

    Ugly styling on upper end models I know that styling is subjective, but the 7 Series just looks bad to me.

    Silly SMG.

    I dunno about Mercedes. I haven't driven one in years.
  • highenderhighender Posts: 1,365
    is bench tested and made sure each one produces at least the 340 hp or 450 hp, before they are released for installation ...

    I think AMG also does this, tho MB itself does NOT.

    I think BMW also do not ....but I don;t know if the Motorsport division does..

    at least one knows the hp is for real.....each engine will make a diff hp....even tho all components are the same....
  • xkssxkss Posts: 722
    Someone on this thread said the following about the upcoming Porsche:

    "Should it be the fastest sedan on the market, or just be fast enough....ala Jaguar XJR ?"

    Car & Driver's long-term aluminum 2004 Jaguar XJR went from 0 to 60 mph in 4.7 seconds, 0 to 100 mph in 11.3 seconds, 0 to 130 in 20.7 seconds, and the 1/4 mile in 13.2 seconds at 107 mph all for about the price of a BMW 7 series.

    The E55 AMG and the M5 are faster than the XJR, but the XJR is a bigger car. It competes more with the 7 series and S class.
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