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Mazda9

dondiliodondilio Posts: 56
edited March 2014 in Mazda
Is there space for a rwd or awd entry luxury Mazda 9? V6 or V8?
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Comments

  • joey2brixjoey2brix Posts: 463
    The millinium never did very well. I think Mazda wants to stick to the cheaper, smaller, sportier version cars.
  • mazda6smazda6s Posts: 1,901
  • nedc2nedc2 Posts: 192
    Mazda really needs something a bit bigger and more luxurious to offer, the problem right now is with engines; they haven't got one that'll work in a bigger car. A V8 from the Ford/Jaguar parts bin would price them out of competition, and would require converting the platform to RWD or AWD. There is a 3.5l V6 in the pipeline but it's over a year away. Of course using a blown engine is an option, but they have their own problems. Maybe in 2 years. Mazda have said that they are looking to build a car on a stretched 6 platform, I really hope that car is a 9 and not a replacement for the 6, which is a good size right now to work with a 4 cyl. engine.
  • mazda6smazda6s Posts: 1,901
    And monkeys are going to start flying out of my butt any minute now. ;)
  • lngtonge18lngtonge18 Posts: 2,228
    I'd like to see one produced. I like a nice luxury car but don't require the cache of the expensive big name brands. The 6 is more sports oriented and not all that luxurious. Mazda has really limited itself by not offering something above the 6. The Millenia/929 were nice cars and I'd be interested in one if Mazda brought them back. A BMW 5 series performance luxury car that costs 30% less? Now that sounds like a great idea!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    They're doing a 6 wagon and 5 door. Those will offer more space.

    Above that, they'd just end up making another Lincoln LS clone. Or worse, a Taurus.

    I just don't see that happening.

    -juice
  • audia8qaudia8q Posts: 3,138
    Mazda is working on a larger car that will be based off the next generation MZ6 platform. It is not a sure thing at this point.
  • dondiliodondilio Posts: 56
    Maybe an adaptation of the Lincoln LS platform would be cool. I dont think they would build a Mazda9 of a Taurus platform since its being discontinued in 2007 and before that it will only be sold to fleet buyers. A Mazda6 stretched platform would be nice with awd.

    I think all depends on how consumers accept their new line-up. At least the automotive press has praise all their new offerings and I believe the public has done so too since Ive seen a lot more new Mazdas on the street.
  • ANT14ANT14 Posts: 2,687
    The Lincoln LS will grow into another platform, since the DEW98 platform will go to Jaguar exclusively.

    As for something on the Taurus platform, won't happen either since the platform will die in the next few years.

    The 3.5L will debut in a Lincoln product first, before it is being phased into other vehicles.

    Don't be surprised if the 9 becomes a close twin to the Ford Futura since it'll be vastly bigger in size.
  • carguy58carguy58 Posts: 2,303
    Why would Mazda want to do offer a near-luxury again when the first 2(929, Millenia)really did nothing on the market? First off Mazda dealers don't have class A customer service, then too top it off the Lexus Es330 and Acura TL are tough to go up against in that particular segement.

    Also Mazda has announced they will supersize the 6 for 2007 or 2008 model year just for the NA market while Europe and Japan get the regular versions. Myself I don't think thats a good move to supersize the 6 but if mazda thinks that well thats their call I guess they have to make.

    Mazda sales are up 21.3% percent this year. The 6 has done well where the last generation 626 really didn't do that well. The 3 is doing splendid. Mazda has been the most interesting car company to watch the last 2 years it seems.
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    Well, I think if they did a good job, there is still a market for the larger Mazda. I have some clients and acquaintances who liked the 929 especially, because it was very nice, but lacked the showiness of a Lexus or Infiniti. The Millenia was too small, I think that was the major failing and why it was never popular. Looked at one myself, it was cramped inside.
  • ANT14ANT14 Posts: 2,687
    The Millenia was the still-born child of Mazda's luxury line Amanti that was never born. This was the only product under development at that time, which is why Mazda decided to use it in the Mazda line.

    The Mazda 929 failed because RWD vehicle with an anemic 3.0L didn't set it apart in any sense.

    Now Mazda has the resources to grow a bit if it wanted to. It's 4year/50K warranty (as many other luxury automaker's use) helps it's case as well. One more vehicle slotted about the 6, if outsourced correctly, can be done profittably even if it's sold in limited quantities.
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    You know, if Kia can hit the road with their Amanti, Avalon sized, Mazda could do something....
  • ANT14ANT14 Posts: 2,687
    You know, if Kia can exsist period, Mazda could sell a pet-rock with wheels !
  • lngtonge18lngtonge18 Posts: 2,228
    The 929 and Millenia failed for very specific reasons that can easily be learned from and improved upon. The 929's fault was the expressive elegant style made the cockpit much too small and intimate for the size and class it competed in. Plus, the engine didn't provide memorable performance and Mazda wasn't known for luxury cars. The Millenia's main fault was the standard 2.5 V6 and steep MSRP. That engine killed interest in the car. I drove one and couldn't believe how slow it was. It was a good handling nice looking car in need of a better engine. Mazda can easily combine elegant attractive styling with a better engine to make an entry level luxury car work.

    There is a narrow niche market where a Mazda 9 could work. It's the 25-29k luxury sedan category. Make it nicer styling wise then the mundane Accord/Carmy bunch and offer more features at a price less then the TL/ES330 class. The competitors would be the XG350, Amanti, Diamante, Avalon, and Maxima. Nothing wrong with Mazda trying to get a piece of the pie. The more competition the merrier!
  • mazda6smazda6s Posts: 1,901
    Why would they want a repeat of that?

    I can see up-sizing (please don't say super-sizing) the Mazda6 a little though, to compete with the interior volume of the Accord and Camry, as long as it doesn't hurt the handling.

    However, I really think Ford will sell any big cars that are based on the Mazda6 platform as Ford or Lincoln, or maybe even Volvo.
  • ANT14ANT14 Posts: 2,687
    Mazda may have lost money because of the stradegy but can learn from it. If they can use various components, platforms, engines with other exsisting vehicles (within Ford in general), then there shouldn't be a loss provided the program is effectively carried out.

    The Camry & Avalon kinship is what comes to mind....
  • dondiliodondilio Posts: 56
    I think Mazda might use the upsized 6 platform for a 9, even the ford 500 platform which is derived from Volvo's p2 (S60/S80) underpinnings. There are a lot of options but they should keep brand identity and the sporty feeling in any new product they offer.

    Ever brand most mature with its costumers in order to not lose them to other brands. In a couple of years some 6 costumers might need a bigger car, even though they like the characteristics of Mazda and might want to buy another Mazda they wont have any alternative within the Mazda lineup, therefor they'll have to look for different brands.
  • nedc2nedc2 Posts: 192
    The Edmunds chart for 1999-2000 sales http://www.edmunds.com/news/feature/vehicles/44695/page001. shows them below that of most other Japanese entry level luxury models but there must be some significant regional differences, Millenias were absurdly popular in the Detroit metro area. I would say that I still see more of them than either Acuras or Infinitis. Of course the Millenia is a small midsize, like the 6, and with a 3.0 litre available its Miller cycle 2.5 made no sense at all. The last generation 929 was interesting, but it was way short on space and performance given its price. So I really don't see how the real or alleged failure of these two models would affect a new 9. A new 9 would not likely be a separate platform and would benefit greatly from cost and parts sharing with other Mazdas and Ford products. Mazda's biggest issue would likely be finding production capacity to build it.
  • mazda6smazda6s Posts: 1,901
    What is the market segment (or niche) that a bigger Mazda would address, that a Ford on the Mazda6 platform would not? Mazda's niche is clear now - the sporty but practical and affordable market. This is what saved Mazda from the same fate as Oldsmobile. Mazda provides an alternative to the everyday ho-hum Toyotas and Hondas. Look at the RX-8, the Mazda3 and the Mazda6. Even the Tribute is a little sportier than your average SUV. So, what would Mazda build, a sportier alternative to the Avalon? Huh?

    So how would a "big" Mazda make sense, and what advantage would this have over a Ford-badged product based on a stretched Mazda6 platform?
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 39,293
    maybe a TL competitor (if the 6 is a cheaper TSX option, the 9 could be a cheaper TL option). Think of it as the supersized 6 that people are afraid of. If the 6 is still around to cover the bottom end, the 9 can be the real sports sedan alterntive in a larger size.

    Avalon room + zoom zoom+ sporty styling and handling doesn't sound too bad to me.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD

  • carguy58carguy58 Posts: 2,303
    for Mazda is putting lots of standard features into the car for about 30K. Thats it. I just think now if Mazda wants to put a near-luxury they should wait 5 years because they are in the middle of establishing their brand idenity right now. The Millenia had nice style(i did sit in one) the front was comfy to sit in. The backseat was terrible.

    Mitsu is putting out a Diamante for the 06 model year. I'm kinda shocked at that myself: we will see how that sells.

    Another I am worried if Mazda decides to put a mid-luxury car in another couple years will it be too close to a Mazda 6s on the sticker price?
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 39,293
    one problem the 6 has is that it has to bridge a wide gap, from mid-high teens econ car, to mid+ 20's luxo/sport sedan. Hard to do with the same basic car. A 9 conceptually can relieve the 6 of some of the high end duties (almost like the TL covers the Accord).

    Of course, the 3 can cover some of the low end duties, so you could really focus the 6 if you wanted to.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD

  • rock44xrock44x Posts: 78
    IMO making a bigger and more expensive car doesn't make a Luxury car. a mazda9 is not the way to go, rather i like to see a Luxury model of the 6, high quality interior, AWD, wider stances, more power(240-250), nav, xenon light,etc, for under 30k, the TL and G35 are both the same Length as the 6 and they are known for being great driving cars, people moving up market after a 6 will look for a more refined 6 like ride with more Luxury look,feel, and features, while those people looking for more space will get a wagon, minivan or a suv (and keep their 6), not a big over priced 6. look at the 2004 nissan maxima a big expensive altima. mazda9 not for me.
  • rctennis3811rctennis3811 Posts: 1,031
    I still think Amati should've been born. By now, they would've been very sporty because of Mazda's newfound ZOOM-ZOOM image.
  • mazda6smazda6s Posts: 1,901
    "maybe a TL competitor (if the 6 is a cheaper TSX option, the 9 could be a cheaper TL option)"

    Maybe, but with the Mazda6 being "up-sized" in a couple of years (gaining interior volume), couldn't that compete with the TL, assuming the right drivetrain and luxury equipment?
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    It doesn't have to be luxury, or even really near luxury, just in the class with an Avalon, with Zoom-Zoom, you know? And why not buy the similar sized Ford? Some people just won't buy a Ford, won't buy American, like Japanese better, lots of reasons. The Avalon is still dull, though much better than the last one. I think if they made it nice, it would sell. But, what do I know?
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 39,293
    that was part of my point. The super size 6 would become the 9 instead, so the 6 could stay as the more compact alternative.

    Similar to what Ford is doing to replace the Taurus (Futura smaller, 500 bigger).

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD

  • mazda6smazda6s Posts: 1,901
    I'd go for that idea!
  • lngtonge18lngtonge18 Posts: 2,228
    Mazda needs something higher then the 6 for consumers to grow into, plain and simple. They can continue their "sporty" character to a highline bigger sedan. It doesn't have to be a lot bigger then the 6, just roomier, better equipped, and more luxurious/elegant. 5-7 inches longer with most of it in the wheelbase might be a good compromise. If they only concentrate on building economy/sporty inexpensive models, their image will stagnate and be more known for "cheaper" cars rather then "nicer" cars (which will not help them build resale value). Kia has run into the same situation, thus why Kia has started introducing more luxurious and expensive cars, like the Amanti, Sorento, and Sedona. While the 6 is a nice car, it still is rather boring and common styling wise in base versions and is simply a family sedan with a sporty flair. A near luxury car has a different image that attracts different buyers, ones like me. I own a 2003 Diamante. That car is hardly competitive in today's market but the amount of luxury and style it provides for a reasonable price is what attracted me to it. I would buy a 9 but not a 6 and definitely not a Ford. The idea of a Diamante class car with a sportier character is quite appealing to me. There are others like me, enough to make the 9 feasible.
  • audia8qaudia8q Posts: 3,138
    One big reason mazda is considering some higher priced vehicles is for profit. For the mazda company and the dealer network...The dealerbody is having a hard time justifying stand alone mazda stores, which is what mazda is demanding, at the tune of millions of dollars to sell small mark up cars. There would never be enough return on the investment to justify the huge expense. We sell alot of other brands and our Ford store, for example, makes almost double the profit, selling half as many cars. Also look at things from the mfg side...Ford division makes around $10k-12K per expedition they sell to dealers....it takes mazda a dozen sales to make that kind of profit. It costs billions to design and build a brand new new car, it takes alot of cars to come up with that kind of money.
  • rock44xrock44x Posts: 78
    "While the 6 is a nice car, it still is rather boring and common styling wise in base versions"

    a 2003 Diamante is near luxury car and has sportier character than the 6?

    the 9 is a bad move for mazda look at the Volkswagen Phaeton.

    Honda and Subaru don't have big near luxury car and their doing will.
  • mazda6smazda6s Posts: 1,901
    You guys convinced me. I guess it's OK if Mazda offers a larger car, but only if it's "sporty" and available with a manual transmission!
  • carguy58carguy58 Posts: 2,303
    Ingtonge 18:

    "While the 6 is a nice car it still is rather boring and common styling wise in base versions
    ans simply is a sedan with a sporty flair".

    I don't see nothing wrong where the 6 is positioned in the car market. Not everybody wants a super-sized sedan like the Accord and Altima.

    The Mitsubishi Diamante I'll judge that car when they come put with a new one in a couple of years. The current one is kinda dated.

    On Kia they sell cars on the 10 year/100,000 mile warranty mainly. I wouldn't buy a Kia over any Japanese Car.

    I also agree all a near luxury car for Mazda would have to do is be a little more roomier than the 6.

    Audi8q:

    I was on Mazda's case alot on of these boards when the 6 first came out. Since you are a Mazda salesman isn't Mazda's higer up(bosses) happy they are finally regaining a little presence in the US after kind of a bad mid to late 90's period?

    I have read Mazda wants to add more dealerships around the US. As long as they have good product I don't see why Mazda can't have stand alone dealerships.

    On another matter Mazda just needs to grow to where they were around 1993 in terms of market presence to compete with Honda and Nissan.
  • rock44xrock44x Posts: 78
    "Mazda offers a larger car, but only if it's "sporty" and available with a manual transmission!"
     what are the chances of that.
  • mazda6smazda6s Posts: 1,901
    About the same chances as me getting date this weekend.
  • ANT14ANT14 Posts: 2,687
    Let me throw an idea out...

    What if the Mazda9 were the Mazda6 based AWD sedan that Lincoln will be getting? (Which will be displayed at the NYC Auto Show).
  • mazda6smazda6s Posts: 1,901
    What's it going to be called, and when is it due out?
  • nedc2nedc2 Posts: 192
    Any conceivable Mazda 9 wouldn't be something like the VW Phaeton. The Phaeton isn't a largish maintsream midsize sedan, it's a high end luxury car, like a BMW 7, Mercedes S Class, VW's own Audi A8, that's a real smart move, or Jguar XJ. The only Japanese cars that come close are the Lexus LS and Infiniti Q45. The real competition would be the higher end Camrys, Avalon, Accord and Acura. The 6 is great the way it is, especially with the 4 cyl. because it's smaller than any of those cars and comes in a variety of bodystyles. A 9 would be more like sportier, an hopefully prettier, Avalon. Believe me it's a better idea to add a 9 than to supersize the current 6, it's carved out its own niche already. Mazda and Ford should do this because, sad to say, there are alot of people, especially on the coasts, who won't even look at anything that isn't Japanese, they are a beyond the ability of the Ford's Five Hundred or Futura to reach them, a bigger Mazda could.
  • ANT14ANT14 Posts: 2,687
    Mazda6s, those specifics have yet to be released.
  • dondiliodondilio Posts: 56
    The Futura based AWD Lincoln would be a great idea for the future Mazda9. Hope they give it a different exterior, interior, different suspension tuning, and sheetmetal. Do the same they've done with the Mazda3, Volvo S40 and European Focus.
    That move would make the car profitable for Lincoln since it'll have a cheaper versions, the 9 and the Futura, and Mazda would make profit out of it, even if it sells in small numbers. After all in the future we wont see a lot of 200 or 300k sales for a particular model since the market is going to to be more segmented, for example Ford Five Hundred & Ford Futura.
  • audia8qaudia8q Posts: 3,138
    well I'm not really a salesperson but it takes millions of dollars to build a stand alone dealership....most mazda dealer are now mixed in with other franchises. Mazda has lofty aspirations but to get there it requires a very profitable dealerbody. Without a larger or more profitable carline this isnt possible. The current profit margins on mazda cars is small compared to car companies that have larger potential profit margins. Without an expanded product line with larger profit margins a larger dealerbody with stand alone franchises is not possible. Mazda realizes that to expand market share they must expand the product line...at this point there is nowhere for them to look expect up. Either larger cars or more expensive products. With Ford's power and the other companies within ford's stable, this is now possible. In the days of the Millenia or Amanti, they were going alone and it was a longshot...now they have a legit shot. The new product line which started with the Tribute and went on with the 6,3,8 have proven Mazda's abilities when they have Ford buying power and scale of economies with shared platforms. It took Ford a while to figure out how to mesh their companies skills but we are just starting to see the benefits and they look great.

    oh, BTW: to all you mazda6 fans....There is going to be a Mazda6 based AWD Lincoln car making a debut in a few weeks at the NY auto show. This different than the mazda6 based Aviator replacement that we have already seen.
  • rock44xrock44x Posts: 78
    i'm not comparing the VW Phaeton to the mazda9 price and class wise but success wise, VW is losing big money on Phaeton and mazda have already mess-up with the 929 and Millenia so way keep getting burnt i rather see the rx-7 than a big 6 or 9.
  • mazda6smazda6s Posts: 1,901
    OK, how about a Mazda6 coupe? Or how about a SUV or cross-over vehicle based on the Mazda6 platform?
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    That's fine for you. But I'll never buy an RX at my age, I'm done with cars I need a lift to get out of forever, now I'm into comfort, and a bigger more luxurious Mazda would be considered. The VW Phaeton is way over the top for VW, IMO, too much money, too much engineering, too much. Should have been an Audi.
  • ANT14ANT14 Posts: 2,687
    "SUV or cross-over vehicle based on the Mazda6 platform?"

    Yes, this will be coming from Ford and Mazda around 2007-2008 (this will "compliment" the Explorer"). Look at the Honda Pilot as an example....Built on the Mazda6 platform, AWD, 3 rows of seats, etc.
  • dondiliodondilio Posts: 56
    This is what I've heard over the internet, some might be rumors others might be true.

    Future Tribute, currently built on a last generation Mazda 626 will switch to a Mazda3 platform.

    New crossover built on the 6 platform.

    New B- series Pick up, developed by Ford and Mazda.

    Possibly a Mazda9, maybe from an stretched 6 platform with AWD.

    New Miata MX-5, built on the current RX-8 platform.

    The Mazda2, possibly coming up next year, expect styling very similar to the MX Micro Concept shown this year at Detroit.

    IMO it seems Mazda, might turn out with a very complete and competitive Line-up.
  • lngtonge18lngtonge18 Posts: 2,228
    Who, what, where? I never said the Diamante was a sportier car then the 6. It is a near luxury car though. The idea of a 9 combining the 6's sporty handling with the Diamante's style, comfort, and luxury features would be an interesting car.
  • lngtonge18lngtonge18 Posts: 2,228
    I agree about the 6. There is nothing wrong with the car's standing in the marketplace and it should be left alone size wise.
  • rock44xrock44x Posts: 78
    the Diamante's style? what style.

    just joking!
This discussion has been closed.