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  • r2s2r2s2 Posts: 93
    Mazda already took their run at that, with the abortive Amati line, so I doubt they'll go there again. I suspect that, as someone said before me, that they're more likely to move into the $30-35,000 market, with a car (9?) which will be to the 6 what the Avalon is to the Camry.
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    Makes sense to do it that way.
  • audia8qaudia8q Posts: 3,138
    Like you, I don't expect mazda to offer a new luxury division like Amati...but remember, they did amati on their own without Ford's help. Ford was the one who actually forced them to pull the plug on the idea...

    But as it was pointed out...Mazda has aquired a whole new bunch of buyers who purchased the MZ6...many of these owners have nowhere to go in the mazda line if they want to move up. Mazda does not want to lose these people.
  • mascmasc Posts: 21
    The possibility of a Mazda9 is very slim, at least not anytime soon anyways. Mazda itself does not even have its own mid-size engine (3-some liters) as the current 3.0L in the Mazda6 and MPV is just a Ford Duratec 30. That is why in other parts of the world, other than North America, where Ford does not own a part of Mazda, Mazda6's and MPV's only come with a 2.3L as it is Mazda's own engine. To start its way to a Mazda9, Mazda would first have to either make its own mid-size engine or have the current 3.0L V6 available thorughout the world. THEN they can start to consider to make a Mazda9.
  • ANT14ANT14 Posts: 2,687
    They will be using the Duratec 3.5L V6 from Ford.
  • carguy58carguy58 Posts: 2,303
    "Mazda itself does not even have its own mid-size engine(3-some liters)as the current 3.0L in the Mazda and Mazda MPV is just a Ford Duratec 30."

    Mazda just doesn't put the Duratec in the Mazda 6 or MPV. Mazda itself does have finishing touches on those engines.

    Mazda has made its own V-6 engines in the past. The Miller-Cycle engine that was used in the Millenia got its positive amount of press. The last generation 626 was all Mazda which was a 2.5 liter engine and made 170 horsepower. I guess Mazda uses the Duratec to save money. Nothing wrong with that all long as Mazda has finishing touches on the Ford Engines I don't have a problem with it.
  • audia8qaudia8q Posts: 3,138
    You say..."That is why in other parts of the world, other than North America, where Ford does not own a part of Mazda.."

    Ford owns controlling interest in mazda, worldwide...not just north america.

    has anyone considered the idea that a higher end mazda might have a rotary? They are currently working on more powerful versions with more than the twin rotors..
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    Geeze, I hope not. I just drove a new RX-8, and didn't like the feel of the Rotary for in town driving...... I likely wouldn't buy one unless they could really change the driving dynamics of the engine/transmission.
  • mascmasc Posts: 21
    ANT14, i DID say mid-size engine... why would they make another model, more expensive than the 6 but has an engine that is only several ten horses more power? The MAzda series would not make sense if only a 3.5L is going to be put in a 9. The 3 is a compact - 2.0L & 2.3L engines (small engines). The 6 has a 2.3L (base) and a 3.0L mid-size engine. So why make ANOTHER mid-size car for the 3.5L (supposedly put into a 9) as this mid-size engine would not provide adequate power for a larger sedan. This "9" would not be able to sell at all, the gap between the 6 and the supposed 9 would be way too close.

    Carguy58, i know Mazda makes finishing touches on the Duratec 30, which is why it makes 220hp (instead of 200) in the 6. But that is not the point. Mazda is only able to use a mid-size engine in North America because it is "borrowing" from Ford but in other parts of the world, Ford is not able to supply Mazda with the 3.0L V6 and Mazda does not haf its own. Which is why Mazda does not haf any V6's available for their Mazda 6's in any other parts of the world except in N. America, nevertheless, haf an even larger engine to use for the supposed 9.
    AND what if Mazda DID haf preivous V6's, they had the size of a 4-cylinder and did not provide power equal to modern V6's. For Mazda to even start thinking about a 9, they would first haf to have a 3.0L available in their 6's thoughout the world, which is what they are trying to do.

    Audia8q, for your comment: "Ford owns controlling interest in mazda, worldwide...not just north america." So what, the resources Ford has worldwide is measly, compared to the resourses they haf in NOrth America. This is why Ford is NOT able to supply MAzda 6's worldwide with their Duratec 30 (which Mazda still needs to refine it in their own plants).

    Please, don't pick at word usage or lack of details as it does take a long time to respond and i dont like tying... just read the points of the post and not nit-pick.
  • ANT14ANT14 Posts: 2,687
    "This "9" would not be able to sell at all, the gap between the 6 and the supposed 9 would be way too close."

    The Duratec35 can be tailored to produce anywhere from 240HP to even 300HP if need be. Considering the Mazda6 makes 220HP with it's 3.0L, the "9" with a Duratec35 can decently produce 250-260HP nicely.

    As example, let's take a look at other vehicles lines. Altima 250HP/Maxima 265HP, Camry 210HP/Avalon 220HP. Therefore having a Mazda6 with 220, and a Mazda9 with 250-260 would be ballpark with the competition.

    World markets are totally different from ours. The Mazda6 is perfectly fine with a 2.3L standard in other countries, BUT in the U.S., consumer's demand more power, hence the 3.0L.

    I wouldn't doubt it if once Ford switches to mass producing the 3.5L and implement it in vehicles currently using the 3.0L, that they might free-up some production and allow the 3.0L to be used as the standard engine around the world, for this Mazda9. In other words, numerous other countries receive OUR base engine, as their standard offering.

    But overall, I think the thing to considering is the platform, and where this vehicle will stem from. There's 2 possibilities being tossed around, the current 500/Montego/Freeestyle platform, or an enlarged Mazda6 platform. Overall, the vehicle will NOT be a standard sedan that we currently know. It's sort of a cross-over type sedan. Think Lincoln Navicross type of concept, where it's a sedan, but can be a cross-over in it's arrangement.
  • nedc2nedc2 Posts: 192
    Mazda do offer the Tribute in Europe with the 3.0 l Duratec, it's not in the 6 because with gas prices of $4 to $5 per gallon there's not much demand. The base engine on the Euro version of the Jaguar XJ is 3.0 l V6, and the only Ford in Europe other than the Maverick/Escape that offers the 3.0 l is the Mondeo ST220, a highe priced perormance version of that car. You can get almost anything with a diesel though.
  • rp64rp64 Posts: 13
    Your response is incorrect. Mazda could use the Duratec anywhere in the world if they wanted to. They ship the engine to Japan to drop into the MPV. They don't since the rest of the world pay higher gas prices, and have been conditioned to use smaller engines. Don't say Mazda borrows from Ford. Mazda is part of the Ford family, period. This is why new Ford models are based on Mazdas and Volvos. This is why the Duratec is used in Mazdas and why the Ford 2.5 V6 is going to be dropped into a Land Rover.
  • audia8qaudia8q Posts: 3,138
    I won't nit pick as long as you get your rantings correct.
  • rock44xrock44x Posts: 78
    "The Duratec35 can be tailored to produce anywhere from 240HP to even 300HP if need be."
    thats a joke ford has v8 engines that make that must power doubt if the Duratec35 will make more that 240hp max.

    and also the mazda9 was at the NY auto show it was called the Lincoln Zephyr.
  • ANT14ANT14 Posts: 2,687
    But the V8's make much torque, and fit into certain platforms.

    The Duratec35 will replace, what (or displace) where the current 4.6L is at. Meaning, the 4.6L in the Explorer now making 239HP and 282TQ, will be redesigned with 3 valve techonology next year for it's mid-generation refreshning. (What's going in the new Mustang). That engine will make around 280-290HP in the next Explorer, this will leave a huge gap between it, and the 4.0L SOHV V6 210HP/245TQ.

    That engine will be replaced by this new Duratec 35, and make much more power overall, and pretty much ALMOST match what the current V8 makes.
  • rock44xrock44x Posts: 78
    "That engine will make around 280-290HP in the next Explorer"

    i have to see that to believe it. the new f150s 4.6 231 hp and 5.4L pushing 300hp but these are trucks, in the new 05 Five Hundred and Freestyle both have 3L engine pushing out 200hp, the only company that got a 3.5 pushing out around 280-290HP is nissan. ford is not in any hp war so why the huge power jump.

    05 Mustang base will come with a 4.0L V6 pushing out 202 hp and 235 lb-ft of torque while 05 Mustang GT will have a 4.6-liter V8 300 hp and 315 pound-feet of torque.

    if ford go form a 4.0 engine to a 3.5 engine in the next Explorer that would make no sense since all the mid sized suvs have 4.0L (4Runner, 05 Pathfinder)

    and last if there is a mazde9 it is most likely be a redress ford Five Hundred with awd and more power 3L or 3.5L with 240hp, mazda is not in any hp war too.
  • ANT14ANT14 Posts: 2,687
    " the only company that got a 3.5 pushing out around 280-290HP"

    The engine I was referring to was the 4.6L, although the 3.5L could make that type of power, it is the torque that's important for those applications.

    The 4.0L Cologne Engine won't be around for long, so the Mustang will also have the 3.5L phased in a few years as well. This is why Ford wasn't sure if to place the Duratec30, or the 4.0L as the Mustang's base engine offering, and took awhile for them to decide upon that. The 4.0L will give them the torque needed, but the 3.5L will have overall refinement and efficiency which will be needed in the next few years.
  • r2s2r2s2 Posts: 93
    "and also the mazda9 was at the NY auto show it was called the Lincoln Zephyr."

    Very astute observation. Hmmmmm.
  • sukispeedsukispeed Posts: 27
    If Mazda were going to produce the Mazda9 I would think it would me an SUV. This new SUV that they are going make along side the next Aviator. I don't think Mazda wants a larger car than the Mazda6. It would be nice to see a Mazda9 sedan, but I just do not see it happening.
  • audia8qaudia8q Posts: 3,138
    mazda is currently working on a $30-40K suv that should be bigger than the tribute but smaller than an Explorer. It may even end up being a crossover like the future avaiator. It is not green lighted for production yet, but it's deff in the works for serious consideration.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,229
    "But overall, I think the thing to considering is the platform, and where this vehicle will stem from. There's 2 possibilities being tossed around, the current 500/Montego/Freeestyle platform, or an enlarged Mazda6 platform."

    That's interesting that you bring the former possibility up. Those three vehicles are built on the Volvo S80 platform. Since Mazda Ford and Volvo built the platform for the current Mazda3/Euro Focus/S40 together could it be possible that they might do it again for a larger platform that will be used to build the next gen of their respective models?

    I don't see why not.
  • ANT14ANT14 Posts: 2,687
    That's what's being tossed around currently. Also, Europe's Ford Galaxy minivan is said to be Volvo P2 platform derived since it's quite flexible as well. This will leave open options.

    Another thing to note, the Next Volvo S60 will share platforms with the next generation Jag X-type.

    So it brings out many possibilities.
  • jchan2jchan2 Posts: 4,956
    Isn't the Ford Galaxy also rebadged as a Volkswagen Touran in Europe? (either the Touran or the Sharan, I don't remember)
  • ANT14ANT14 Posts: 2,687
    Yes it is, although that joint project might be desolved pending contract.
  • npaladin2000npaladin2000 Posts: 593
    That's not even close to the whole story. There's more to an engine than size, horsepower and torque. There's also where in the curve your horsepower and torque peaks are. Now, the reason Japanese get such high horsepower out of their engines is because they sacrifice torque to some degree, and their torque peaks are pretty high. GM tends to get lower pure horsepower and torque numbers because their torque peaks are REALLY low.

    Then you have to factor in what kind of technology they use (Overhead cams, variable valve timing and/or lift, variable intakes, exhausts, etc). A pushrod 4L won't get as much power in some cases as a SOHC 4L, but the SOHC engine is more expensive to produce, and harder to work on because of greater complexity.

    Simply put, The 3.5L Duratec most likely CAN get 300 HP, depending on the choices and comprimises they make.
  • What about the 4.6 in the Cobra? That puts out 390hp and 390lb/ft, those are fairly decent numbers, wouldn't you say?
  • lexi4lifelexi4life Posts: 181
    I think this car will really show up in the future, you know. Ford already wants to share the platform of the Mazda6 to build the Fusion. So that'd be easy for Mazda to build the 9 since they could just take the platform of the 500 and build a sportier car on it. Mazda and Ford are sharing platforms since a long time (Tribute-Escape, 3-European Focus, MX-6-Probe) so I don't see why they wouldn't do it again for the next 9.
  • I would rather see a Mazda 9 on the new Ford Falcon BA platform than the five-hundred.
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    But, can the Falcon be adapted for the North American market on a cost effective basis? You'll note, that is rarely done - for a reason.... the Holden is the first attempt at this, and of course, Pontiac has sold, what 6 GTO's now???
  • ANT14ANT14 Posts: 2,687
    That's the issue. Our crash standards are very different from those in Australia. Hence, it would require some engineering to allow it. Importing it could cause an issue with the UAW.

    But interesting to note, Ford NA does have a few Falcons they are studying, so there might be a possibility in the future for such a vehicle, provided it can be built from an existing platform, that's definately a MUST. But HANG in there, it might come around.
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