Lincoln Zephyr/MKZ

cougar87

All right, I will not turn this into an arguement. But I will leave it at this: Time will tell who's arguement is the one the Buying Public agrees with. Personally I doubt this car will be a success.

alpha01

In acceleration, the 280 hp Avalon will out run the overrated 250 hp 300 Touring.. and I will bet on that.

~alpha

samnoe

There is one discussion here in Town Hall which gives you outstanding and unusual useful information all about Ford's platforms and engines. (Seems that ANT14 had a lot of time on his hand at that time...) It's about a year ago. Read the first 5-6 pages...

ANT14 "Mercury Mariner" May 4, 2003 3:15am

ANT14

Cougar,

Don't perceive it as an argument, it's just normal discussions and sharing of ideas and points. It's nice to listen to other viewpoints and interact. At time same time, "others" are listening, which helps.

cougar87

For one thing, I wouldn't call the Chrysler 300 overrated. It offers fresh styling and rather impressive performance with RWD. Toyota knows they've been topped with that one. The Avalon stirs emotions about as much as...return address labels.

Moving On:
The new Avalon doesn't seem like anything special either. The styling seems nicer, but it just doesn't come close to 300. The performance might top the 300 Touring's, but I don't think it would TRUMP it. You also have to consider torque; how well can the NG Avalon maintain high speeds up hills? Wait for independent testing results before waving the Toyota victory flag. M'kay?

Getting back on topic...
I'm glad you don't think it was really an arguement brewing, but it wouldn't be all that good to bicker back and forth about whether the Lincoln Zephyr will A) Be reliable, Worth the money, and Worthy of the Lincoln Marque or Become a hit with the buying public. Time will tell.

buckwheat

These three cars—the Volvo S80, Mazda6 and Mazda3—form the building blocks for Ford, Mercury and Lincoln models as the company moves forward.
 
In the coming years, Ford cars will have a distinctly global flavor. Three basic platforms will comprise the bulk of Ford's automotive lineup through 2008, with Mazda and Volvo providing the building blocks for Ford, Mercury and Lincoln.

VOLVO S80: At a minimum the vehicles to be built off this platform include the Ford 500, Mercury Montego, two Lincoln sedans, the Ford Freestyle, its Mercury and Lincoln cousins (Aviator) in front- and all-wheel drive versions.
MAZDA6: Eleven vehicles are to be built from this base, including the Ford Fusion, Lincoln Zephyr, and their Mercury cousin. Also expect to see the Escape, Mariner and small Lincoln SUVs to use this base, as well as the Ford of Europe Mondeo and (possibly) Jaguar X-Type. The next generation Ford Freestar and Mercury Monterey also will use this component set.
MAZDA3: Ford's North American Focus willjoin this architecture in approximately three years when all Volvo, Ford, Mazda, and Mercury small cars and crossovers adopt this platform. Cost concerns kept Ford from launching the Focus on this platform this year.
Jaguar will launch the next S-type off the aluminum XJ sedan architecture, and may yet receive approval for a rear-drive X-Type replacement. The F-150, Expedition and Navigator will share a common frame, while the Explorer, Mountaineer, Town Car, Crown Victoria, and Grand Marquis join the body-on-frame platform group in order to keep costs under control. Current plans have the large sedans being dropped or replaced by 2010.
 
http://www.autofieldguide.com/articles/090401.html#Three's

alpha01

Not to belabour the point, but the new Avalon will have more torque and additional cog over the 300/300 Touring/300 Limited. I dont think its a stretch to say that the Avalon will easily outrun that vehicle, but sure, we'll wait for instrumented testing to prove it. You can ask ANT for his opinion on the 3.5L Chrysler mill. I tend to agree with him... the 250hp never seems to make it from the spec sheet to the pavement. Indeed, in their last test of the 300 Limited, Motor Trend managed only 8.0 seconds to 60....

The Five Hundred and Avalon may not be exciting, but I dont think they will face a trend issue either. Sure the 300 is something different, but I think its going to meet the same fate as the PT Cruiser- high initial interest and strong sales without rebates..... which drops off sharply after two years... only to need serious incentives to move at decent levels.

In anycase, this new Lincoln Zephyr looks to be a promising competitor. With Fords upcoming 3.5L, at least.

~alpha

cougar87

Like I said, time will tell what is nearly impossible to predict. I don't have the specs of the latest Avalon, so to tell the truth I can't tell you. Though I doubt the 300 would be HAMMERED. It certainly had enough oomph when I test drove it. If I am wrong, than what can I say? Personally I don't think either car (maybe excluding the 300C) is built for speed, so as long as power is a bit more than adequate, it shouldn't be a problem.

Though, I truely believe Chrysler has got something with the 300. I don't think it will go away like some people think it will. Many people predicted it would flop from the get-go. But no one has a crystal ball, so someone is going to end up with their foot in their mouth...

ANT14

What the 300 does have going for it, is attention and that's something Chrysler desperatly needed. It's actually one of the better vehicles they have designed/engineered in recent memory. Therefore, it's gained willing acceptance for the most part.

It's the same sort of excitement that GM was wanting when it redesigned the Malibu, which was supposedly going to be world class and battle the import. We obviously see that wasn't the case. But the momentum leading to it, was quite exciting overall, and it's that same excitement that has helped Chrysler, once the initial results were widely accepted.

Buckwheat,
the next Aviator will be based on the CD3 platform (Mazda6). And the next Escape/Mariner/Tribute/Freelander will be based on the Focus platform. (C1 architecture)

buckwheat

The info: I posted was a copy/paste via the link at the bottom of the post, a November 2004 article.

ANT14

Ok, just clarifying that part. I believe I read that article awhile back as well, nodding my head as to how they came up with that info....

buckwheat

You are right about reading it awhile back it turns out to be a Sept. 2004 article. I got that link from a current article, FWIW,

http://www.autofieldguide.com/articles/110403.html

buckwheat

"New" Lincoln can't arrive to soon for Ford product line!

http://www.detnews.com/2004/insiders/0412/04/C01-22795.htm

buckwheat

A 12/14/04 article, not much different than what has been said already but it is current.

 

http://www.forbes.com/2004/12/14/cx_dl_1214vow_print.html

brucelinc

I understand that initially the Zephyr will have the 3.0 engine with VVT and the 6 speed auto. When can we expect the 3.5 and CVT to be available? Or, will the CVT handle the power of the 3.5?

ANT14

That's still being worked out, it'll be a year after till the Duratec35 is phased in. Before so, there's a few other vehicles that will receive that engine.

speedlux

I like to say Zephyr concept have the best exterior Licoln ever had design, as much as I known of, but It interior is another grandpa car. Why does the gauge have to be a box, look at the gear stick, just plain straight down, dash board and it steering wheel also square. It look so boring, and the CD player look like it have nothing else to do beside put a CD in and out. I have no doubt It interior designer is a 50's yrs. Lincoln need to think younger and more excitement, or else It'll be another gonner soon.

ANT14

Actually the designer/stylists of that program are waayyyy under 50. Some elements harken back to historic cues from the past, but not everything you saw is concrete.

dieselone

I can't believe Ford is going to drop the 3.0 Duratech in the Zephyr. The styling looks very promising, but I'll have to see one in person. The current 3.0 doesn't belong in the 500, much less a Lincoln. This car is going to get hammered for lack of power which the new transmissions won't be able to make up for. With all of the engines Ford has access to I can't believe they are going to make due with the 3.0. They've already borrowed the Volvo platform, why not bring use some T5 or T6 powerplants. Even with VVT I'd be surprised if it has more than 220hp and maybe a little more torque. The upcoming 3.5 better be worth the wait, because the competition has a pretty big head start.

 

Regarding the 300, I'm with the camp which says it will continue to do well. I've generally not been a Chrysler fan, but it seems the Mercedes merger is starting to payoff. What other car on the road in the 300's price range has the presence which the 300 has. It may be to bold for some, but I really think it has an upscale look. Time will tell. The Malibu, what a joke. The only people that are impressed with that car, are the ones who where impressed with the previous Malibu. The car is plain ugly.

ANT14

The CD13 platform is able to fit a Durtec30/35 "V" engine, more so than it can an Inline5/6. Also, the I6 engine from Volvo is too wide for this vehicle and would increase the turning radius of the vehicle. Not to mention, a totally new subframe would be needed if that decision were to take place, and considering the I6 is being planned on growing, it'll just make it worse.

 

The Duratec30 with VVT will sport around 230HP, that with a 6 Speed automatic your looking at under 7 second 0-60 times. As it is, the 500 FWD/CVT does it in 7.35 seconds, and that vehicle weights 400lbs more than this one.

alpha01

ANT, with all due respect, the 7.35 was from the lightest iteration of the 500, with the more responsive of the two transmissions, and that number was achieved ONLY by the Ford-commissioned AMCI report. I havent seen anything close to that from a 500 or Montego in any of the well regarded magazines.

 

~alpha

ANT14

Which is why I quoted the FWD/CVT combo which is the lightest of the bunch. The majority (if not probably all) have tested the AWD versions since it's what Ford has mostly lent out for testing and comparisons.

brucelinc

Alpha, I agree completely. I know the CVT is a bit quicker but I drove a Montego recently with the 6 speed and found it to be a bit of a dog. My wife's Duratec Taurus feels like a real hot-rod by comparison.

 

I think the Zephyr is an important vehicle for Ford and I hate to see the first year models acquire the reputation of being behind the competition in terms of performance.

 

I will consider a Zephyr to replace my 2000 LS V8 when the 3.5 and CVT are available. Of course, a Lincoln version of the 500 (Continental?) with a V8 might be worth the wait. Where are we on that, ANT?

alpha01

Well MT and Consumer Reports both tested SEL 6 speeds, and needed 8.8 and 8.7 seconds to hit 60, respectively. Since you cant get a 500 FWD with the CVT in any trim other than basic SE, I dont feel the 7.4 that you cite is indicative of the line.

 

I was impressed by Car and Drivers time of 8.2 to 60 in the Freestyle AWD CVT, but that was using a brake-torquing technique that 99.5% of consumers would never use. In the more realistic street start, that vehicle hit 60 in 8.8 seconds.

 

My only point is that Ford's literature seems to highlight what just may be one the lowest selling engine/tranny combo. Articles Ive read have already stated that production of higher trim versions is ramping up.

 

~alpha

ANT14

Bruce,

 

There will be 2 Lincoln versions of the D3 platform. In other words, a LS and Town Car replacement on the 500 platform.

 

Alpha,

 

Yes, the higher trim versions are selling better than expected, therefore production has been increased for SEL/LIM.

speedlux

ANT14, "Some elements harken back to historic cues from the past"

 

   Well, historic deos mean old, what do you think of my personal description about it interior and do you think any mid 00's to late 50's appriciate it interior?

ANT14

According to consumer clinics, and auto shows samplings, people loved the interior. Mind you, I myself do not even remember ANY of these styling elements were from the past, but it only caught my eye because it was different when I saw it designed at first...a being different.

 

There's a few specific items that won't make it in the end. The new round of auto shows in the next few weeks will give better details of the final version.

ANT14

Ok well, yes there's a few details I can share :-) The rectangular IP your worried about, won't make it. Just expect the regular circular style. The wood a bit darker than the light maple displayed. Side curtain airbags, and all the usual safety equipment standard.

 

The Duratec will produce around 210HP and 200TQ, but coupled with the 6 Speed automatic, it'll feel much more than that. Actually the engines are "underated"... Don't want another Mustang Cobra, or Miata senario, but 210HP is conservative for what it really is. The engine will also receive ULEVII classification, electronic throttle control as well.

 

HID will be an option, 17inch wheels standard. AWD optional later in the year. The cabin will be extremely quiet, since it's needed for the optional next generation THX 2 sound system.

dave2222

What happened to the original concept? It looks nothing like the original. How did you make the Fusion look sooo good yet the Zephyr looks so bad. The interior has good materials, but its not integrated and theres no navigation system. Please tell me that those pictures arent the actual zephyr and theres a real model that looks like the concept.

ANT14

Not much was changed from concept to final production. As I mentioned (waayyyyy back when), the bumper's obviously would need to standout, unlike the concept. Overall, everything else made it except the rear tail-lights which have a strip of white in the center, and are a bit bolder than the concept, and wrap around the corner. Everything else is pretty much the same.

 

As for the interior, only the steering wheel, shiftgate, and IP were modified. Clock added between the center airvents, as well as a storage niche above it, wood darkened. Everything else passed.

 

Yes, there will be a Navi system optional.

savetheland

"There will be 2 Lincoln versions of the D3 platform. In other words, a LS and Town Car replacement on the 500 platform. "

 

Isn't it more reasonable to make it on more expensive Volvo platform (even though everyone understands that Volvo is not a luxury car eigther). Or Lincoln had become just another Mercury ? Is Volvo higher in hierarchy than Lincoln ?

dave2222

The cluster is my real problem. It looks way too boxy for a modern car in my opinion. Im sure the pictures dont give justice to the actual model and the pre production models I sat in were fairly comfortable, but are those pictures just bad ones would you say? I was told by a friend in the marketing deparment that Lincoln was to be look completely different by 2010. Is this one of Lincolns renaissance cars?

 

note- the pre production models were the one in the garage at the Ford product development centers garage near the IMAX.



 



 



 

the one in the garage didnt look that compressed. Maybe it was just the angle?

 



 



 

Im assuming the navigation is a popup navigation where the "map holder " used to be.

buckwheat

the answer to your last question is yes.

  

The Premier Automotive Group (PAG), is a section of the Ford Motor Company that combines the business operations of its four European luxury automobile manufacturers: Aston Martin, Jaguar, Land Rover, Volvo Cars..

 

Lincoln was briefly a part of PAG until heavy losses (in part due to the Firestone tire recall) caused Ford to bring the brand back under American control.

 

But the real question is what/why did they change the Zephyr when it was a real looker. It could have been a contender. While there is a basic resemblance it does not look like the car I saw at the NY auto show.

nedc2

Except for the tail, which they really messed up -- I mean it's better than the Honda Accord's droopy rear but that ain't saying much, it looks pretty good, better than the concept in many ways. I'm a bit disappointed with the HP numbers, I would find them more than adequate but I can already hear some jaded and bitter auto reviewers licking their chops getting ready to take a bite at Ford over those numbers. I hope the luggage space and interior room at least is class leading, with a proper split folding rear seat and front folding passenger seat as in the Volvo's and the Montego. As Red Green says "If women don't find you handsome at least they should find you handy."

ehaase

The Zephyr looks fine. It is too small for my tastes, but it will make a good replacement for the LS V6 and will make some money for Ford since it shares so many components with the Fusion and Milan. It looks as much like the concept car as any production car in recent memory has resembled the concept version. The whining and hysterics I read at the various message boards (not here at Edmund's) is absurd.

ANT14

"Isn't it more reasonable to make it on more expensive Volvo platform (even though everyone understands that Volvo is not a luxury car eigther). Or Lincoln had become just another Mercury ? Is Volvo higher in hierarchy than Lincoln ? "

 

The D3 is a Volvo platform. It's originally a Volvo P2 platform. The Ford 500/Montego/Freestyle are built upon the same platform, but in Ford lingo it's named D3.

 

"The Zephyr looks fine. It is too small for my tastes"

 

It's actually a bit bigger than most anticipate, although some people perceive it being 'small' because it's an entry vehicle, and because it's derived from a Mazda6 platform. But all the porportions have been extended.

 

IN some dimensions, it'll be bigger than the LS actually.

ANT14

Let's disect the concept and production versions...

Concept



Production



The lower front fascia is made of a different material, tweaked a bit.

 

Concept



Production



 

This is probably the part where it was tweaked a bit more. Tail-light lens' are a bit larger, and white backup lamps integrated in the center of it, rather than an after thought like the concept. Lower rear clip also missing.

 

Concept



Production



 

Some things changed in the interior, such as the rectangular IP, now circular. Clock added between the center air vents. Some materials on some of the panels, switched, but look is almost the same.

savetheland

Dashboard on production model looks more integrated, but also seems to be made of cheaper materials. Vents are similar to Mustang. No navigation screen, it is strange. Front of concept looks more classy.

 

But anyway I more interested in Milan so far. It seems to be a compromise between affordable car and premium feel. But of course if they don't screw it again making cheapo like did with Sable.

savetheland

It is interesting that the key in production model looks identical to remote on my Sable and Focus. Is remote integrated into the key and why they didn't make it a bit more different and upperscale ?

fsv

there is huge distance between both, obviously. Pictures are very disappointing to me.

1.)Dropped grill and fully white bumper made the front look as lower-sittin than it actually was, and in whole as very tastefull design. The hood also was nearly flat, what made the car to look wider, than it actually is. The frontlights, being longer on the side, also helped to that. The look also was very upscale (Lincoln supposed to be upscale). Not anymore.

2.)On the side - what happened to these very well though-out mirrors and why there is so much black on the doors?

3.)The rear. Very nice and tastefull, it was changed to something cheapened previous-gen Infinity Q45. Why? Q45 has never sold well. Again, what was the big deal to keep the bumper original, all the way white?

4.)Inside. Dashboard looks ok to me, just don't make IP black.

Though expecting changes, I should say, I am disappointed. Striking concept looks now as a compressed, boxed, uglified Toyota Avalon, vehicle of lower class, targeted on completely different audience; the car even blander that Camry, bought by such older people, who are not afraid to get something uglier than Buick. It is wrong, since Lincoln's class of vehicles - Acuras, Infinities, Audies, BMW's & now Caddilacs and Chryslers are emotional cars, selling on looks, performance and reputation. Lincoln's reputation is, well, with the Town Car, about the rest I already spoke above. It looks like business decision makers at Ford liked idea of Zephyr being Ford Aztec. Car renessaince decade? Furgedabout, or whatever they say in Sopranos. I won't be surprised if some designers at Ford are heavily polishing their resumes now. Them, unlike too many at Ford, have something real to put on their resumes...

Well, it looks like my 30+G's are not going to Ford for this particular car.

I am pretty sure that if the pics above are what the this car will actually look like, it will never sell well.

alpha01

The front end styling of this vehicle is very sharp, in my opinion. However, I like the Production taillights much less than the Concept version, and the IP overall is very tall/SUV-like in appearence. Are we finally getting electroluminescent gauges on this entry Lincoln (would be nice since Toyota is using them on the $16K Corolla these days...)?

 

~alpha

fsv

Also, shiny chrome wheels are mistake. They completely don't look right on this vehicle. What's wrong with powdercoating? BTW, chromed wheel on my LS rusted within a year.

dlincs

I've been following the launch of the Zephyr very closely and I am very disappointed with the changes made from the concept to the production vehicle. The interior of the vehicle is inspiring, and is executed very tastefully, but the exterior of the production vehicle is lacking inspiration. The bloated back end looks like nothing more than a dramatized Avalon. I am 20 years old and currently own a 2004 Lincoln LS6. I am a Z-Planner, and this vehicle with rebates and incentives was well below the cost of my `02 Explorer Sport(around $28k fully loaded). I decided to purchase this vehicle after envying my mom's 2000 LS8 for 4 years, and the price was more than excellent. The LS is a great vehicle with ride and handling characteristics not found on, nor worthy of, most domestic vehicles. The LS is truly what an "American Luxury" car should be. Now, after the great launch of the LS 4 years ago, and the 2000 Motor Trend C.O.Y. award on what was supposed to be the entry-level Lincoln, they are trying to introduce the Zephyr as a base model. For any vehicle that is trying to compete in the entry level luxury market, it must meet certain requirements and, unfortunately, I don't think this vehicle will hold any weight against the foreign market in this segment. Maybe the display vehicle at the NAIAS in Detroit next month will inspire me more in person than just the paper version. I was looking at the Zephyr to be a replacement for my LS next fall, I guess I will have to wait a little longer. Hey ANT14, any inside info on a Mark 9?

ANT14

That's still far in the future....

fsv

ANT, did this horrible parody on the original Zephyr concept go through customers clinics already? How could it have passed them? How is it possible to become a member of these clinics? Is possible to stop these changes, may be?

 

I really regret this concept wasn't created by Chrysler. They know to respect their designers work and customers expectation. That's why you have to wait 4 month for 300C with 5.7L and that's why they are selling this car with no (or very little) incentives. That's why PT Cruiser was so hot. Etc.

ANT14

Clinics did extremely well for it to have gotten to this point. Compare the Montego sketch concept (of 2 years ago), and I would say there was a major difference between the sketch and production version.... hence, dissapointment is understandable in it's case.

 

But now on the Zephyr (as I pointed out some posts ago), other than the rear tail-lights and lower f/r fascias, there was really no other major change. Although I (and a few others) are beginning to think it's maybe the beige color (pearlescent tri-coat) that might be giving a negative perception on the preview pictures released.

 

Other than that, it did extremely well in clinics. One website, Autoweek, currently has a poll in it's entrance page on people's taste among a few other sedans being introduced in 2005. Zephyr has been getting more votes over the Fusion which surprised me, although not scientific either... Since one Toyota fan-site got it's members to join in and vote for their Avalon.

fsv

There could be only on explanation for that - all GM, DC, Toyota and Honda employees gave their votes in order to kill competition.

 

No matter what Ford management talks itself into, this car will not sell. Save maney and image, kill it now.

buckwheat

Maybe someone at Ford will smarten up BEFORE the new Zephyr is released. It's better to delay a car and come out with something good - worthy of the Lincoln name - then it is to release a dud. Ford you know you can do much better than this production model, the Concept demonstrates that!

nvbanker

Can't wait to see this controversial debut.

buckwheat

"Beauty" as it was, apparently the NAIAS is not aware of the desecration..

 

http://www.autoweek.com/files/specials/2005_detroit/lincoln/zephy- r/pages/1.htm