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Lincoln Zephyr/MKZ



  • fsvfsv Posts: 196
    I don't know, if Ford people realize, how important the looks of this car are. Since it is not a performer (with a 3 liter engine) this car should be smart luxury through and through. Ford has just screwed it up with Montego - what was the big deal to KEEP THE CAR ATTRACTIVE? Why you have to wait 4 month for a 300C Chrysler and there is already $1000 off on the Montego? There are now Acura TL & Lexus 330 "competing" for the luxury FWD market. The new Zephyr NOW looks fully confident to take on these 2. If it will not be happening, somebody at Ford must be fired on the spot.
  • Exterior styling is very nice.

    What platform was used for the concept?

    How much of the interior chrome will remain in production?

    The beachwood is nice but a shade too light.

    Side question, does Ford have plans to rework the CrownVic into a sleeker more modern design.
  • ANT14ANT14 Posts: 2,687
    Uusually concepts are build at a smaller scale of the actual production vehicle. So what you saw, is really a smaller version of what will be.

    The platform is CD3, which is shared with the upcoming Fusion and Milan, derived from the Mazda6 platform.

    Interior trimmings, might be a bit toned down. Chrome while looking nice for some, can constantly cause the sun to shine in your face/eyes, therefore it's tricky to play with it in trim pieces. The actual shape/console etc. will pretty much stay the same, the final trimmings haven't been finalized. Quality control is currently taking place, so if replacing one material, with another to make it feel more solid is needed, so it'll be.

    Crown Vic might die at the end of the decade. One last reworking will take place in a few years. If sales continue to fall (as expected), and just be able to serve livery/rental/taxi/police fleets, and a business case isn't justifiable, it might be phased out at that time, but that yet as it be decided.
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    "Any changes will make it compete with Pontiac G6 "

    Please! Perish the thought!! Lincoln competing with Buick makes me ill, but with Pontiac? That will drive me out of my bird for sure.....
  • ANT14ANT14 Posts: 2,687
    Heh, Pontiac is trying to go upmarket, so is Saturn... Let's talk about what is NOT going upmarket for GM...Chevrolet. But if everything else above it can sell, off rebadged vehicles, sure...why not.

    In my opinion, Buick, the brand and it's customer's will follow Oldsmobile... R.I.P. But GM is really counting on Buick taking Cadillac's spot. From the auto shows I've seen lately, I see it happening much quicker than anticipated.
  • fsvfsv Posts: 196
    Acting half-heartedly is the major problem with Detroit. Build the right car, wich is on par with the best of the best - and the buyer will come. Lincoln LS felt like a breath of fresh air, and I leased it. And then there was nothing after it. My lease was over, and I leased Mercury Mountaineer, since where we live it's the same dealer and I already was at the dealership. Not that I really wanted it; not that I don't like it at all now (suspension could be softer, though. Tough guys should get Explorer. Build Merc as more comfortable.). If Zephyr is not what I am looking for - sorry, now my money goes elsewhere. Showing an attractive car at the show (for an half-alive brand) and then building it as miserly imitation of what people saw, and liked inspite of this vehicle being THAT BRAND - it is a suicidal mistake. Especialy in segment where customers should be inspired to buy a particular car (Lexus, or Infinity, or Acura, or - Lincoln). BTW, American Luxury thing wasn't bad. I liked it.
  • ANT14ANT14 Posts: 2,687
    The Explorer and Mountaineer have different suspension tuning. Some might not feel the difference, but the Mountaineer is actually a tad softer. Of course, it's not pillowy soft, as it might enduce nauseu on some people, which is what journalists complained about in the previous generation.

    The seats on the Mountaineer are also softer, and easier to get into than the Explorer. This was made to allow easier ingress for women. Various things were tuned differently, since the vehicle is designed to appeal more to women and make it a bit less truck like.
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    must be working, since my wife is now driving her 3rd Mountaineer in a row......
  • fsvfsv Posts: 196
    As it was just pointed out, A TAD softer. They should have inserted driver seat with some sort of suspension, like on bigger trucks. And, again, it is not a bad truck.
  • I am a past LS owner and now lease a 2000 Jag S type (8 cyl.). I love the design of the new Zephyr and have these questions:

    1. Will it perform like the LS in driving stability/cornering ("the LS smile" factor)?
    2. How much legroom is there in the back seat? Is it similar to S Type or LS ?
    3. Is this car on same platform as the 500 or Montego? What is the difference besides luxury?
    4. Will it have cooled seats in addition to heated seats?
    5. Will it have rain sensing wipers like the Jag and LS?
    6. Will I really notice much difference in power vs my 8 cyl. Jag S (note: I am not a "racer")?

    I want to come back to Lincoln; the Jag $400 oil changes and expensive parts are killing me. I assume this Lincoln will be more reasonable in this respect??

  • ANT14ANT14 Posts: 2,687
    Wow, that's quite an early list. Unfortunately much of what your asking has yet to be finalized, but I'll give you some ideas on a few of those points...

    1) Yes, it will almost be as similar. If you've ever test driven a Mazda6, you will notice that even if it's FWD, it doesn't have the deep nose-end plow most FWD vehicles have. The 500 also does this as well, without FWD front-end drama.

    Compared to the LS, I would say you might not be as involved as the LS is... For example, when I wish to do a U-Turn on a tight street(and it's wet) I turn off Stability Control system, turn the wheel fully, then after a car has passed on the opposite direction, I slam the gas hard, then let go... That's a trick you can do with RWD on the LS (don't try this at home, if you overdo it, you could be doing a 360 instead).

    With RWD your able to stabilize the vehicle, thru sharp turns by gradually accelerating (sometimes stability control will kill this for you AHEAD of time, but for those brave souls that override it).

    The Zephyr will have AWD made available soon after introduction which I prefer over FWD as well. Again, this is only for hardcore driver's, 95% might not even know what's driving their vehicle.

    2) Legroom wise, your looking at almost similar dimensions. Mainly because the flexible platform makes best use of the structure, and allows for good dimensions in a trimmer (compared to rivals) package. The 500 and Focus, both shows us this example well.

    3) The platform is penned CD3, which is derived from the Mazda6 JV platform. Although it'll be bigger than the Mazda6, and being it's flexible, engineers are able to widen, lengthen it, without issues. The Ford Fusion and Mercury Milan will also share this similar platform.

    Differences will be the Lincoln versions will be more luxuriously appointed, have more toys than the F/M versions. Best example, what the Camry is to the ES330 and it's pretty much the concept your looking at.

    4) Most possibly it will have cooled and heated seats. All depends on the suppliers, option packages, what the consumer clients say they want, etc. But common sense shows us that it's a high probability since most Lincoln vehicles have it.

    5) Same as above, not sure yet... It hasn't been an item everyone has been crazy over, so it's still up in the air.

    6) Power wise, there's no denying that a V8 will usually have more low torque that might enduce some grins. But as with the Ford 500, even if it has just 200HP, it can outperform Chrysler 300's 3.5L with 250HP and Avalon's 210HP. This is done with a 6 speed automatic that's geared to take full advantage of the engines power at all levels of the RPM range.

    The standard engine (for awhile) will be the 3.0L DOHC Duratec, but as in the S-type and LS, it'll be tweaked to produce more power, over it's more economical cousins.

    Lincolns maintenence is quite reasonable considering other luxury brands. Although I wasn't aware the S-type maintenence can be THAT expensive. Then again, I go 10K+ miles without changing oil or anything, but again... Don't try this at home, and I usually expire the warranty within the first year anyways.
  • First let me say I really like this car, but in regards to your question re-legroom in the photo below it shows what I percieve to be a handicap to the left foot of drivers as the sidewall angles in and reduces foot space. I saw this car at the NY auto show but unfortunately it was on a platform and I could not sit in or see the drivers footwell or if the same exists on the passenger side. Whether this will be part of the final product, your guess is as good as mine. Until I can sit in this car it's just something to consider, but I do look forward to them building this car. 600x1200.jpg
  • Thanks ANT 14 & Buckwheat - When can I expect to see the car on sale? Thanks
  • ANT14ANT14 Posts: 2,687
    Can't give you a specific month yet, since final details and supplier input, etc. hasn't just been finalized, but more accurate announcement will be made in January.
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    FWIW, for what its worth, the Ford Five Hundred outaccelerates neither the Chrysler 300 3.5L or the 2004 Avalon according to MT. The new Avalon will seriously trump both.

    I do agree however, that the 6sp makes the best of the situation, obviously.

  • ANT14ANT14 Posts: 2,687
    That was according to Motor Trend which isn't the holy grail when it comes to instrumented testing, but according to ASCI independent testing it did. I personally rather go with an organization which isn't influenced by advertising dollars.
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    How does ASCI do its numbers? Is it not commissioned by the automakers? I've seen such comparisons only in mfg. literature.

  • ANT14ANT14 Posts: 2,687
    Not sure if ASCI has a website related to information that might answer that question.
  • First of all,
     What the Hell is Ford on? Replacing their bread and butter cars in every model line with a rebadged, slightly reworked Mazda? Especially Lincoln- that marque used to mean quality and luxury, now their sales are fading away and they are introducing rebadged Mazda 6's and F150's! Well Ford has made their bed- now they will have to lie in it. Who on Earth would buy a rebadged Mazda 6 over a 3 series, CTS, or G35? Who?
  • "The New Avalon will seriously trump both."

    Are you serious? Don't get me wrong, even for someone who thinks Toyota is the most over-rated product under the Sun, I can say that the Avalon is a very decent car. But it is not made for performance, and it's about as much fun as watching Public Access Television. It might have an advantage over the Five Hundred, but a 300 Touring? I doubt it.

    And whether or not independent testing has a different outcome or not, I also would rather go with that. Whoever said magazines like Motor Trend are influenced by advertising dollars hit the nail on the head.
  • ANT14ANT14 Posts: 2,687
    For decades, many Lincolns have been rebadged, slightly modified Ford. It's the only econimcally feasable way.

    Mark8 = Tbird/Cougar
    Continental = Taurus
    Town Car = CrownVic/Grand Marquis


    Navigator = Expedition
    Aviator = Explorer/Mountaineer (next one won't be)

    And it's the same formula that has worked with other automakers....

    G20 = Primera (euro)
    I30 = Maxima
    QX4 = Pathfinder
    QX56 = Armada

    ES330 = Camry
    LX470 = Land Cruiser
    GX470 = 4Runner
    RX330 = Highlander

    I can go on and on, and I'm missing a few in there, but you get the idea.

    The platform might be the same, but it'll drive very differently from the Mazda6. That's just it's starting point, doesn't mean it'll be a rebadged twin either.

    It'll be as different, as the Focus, Mazda3 and Volvo S40 triplets are. And you have test driven each one, you will see they vary within each other in driving feel.
  • Yeah, but. Cadillac does not share platforms. Or BMW and Mersedes. And even Lexus. So Lincoln will be more Acura than one of these brands. That is an American luxury, now I understand. Thank you Jacque !
  • samnoesamnoe Posts: 731
    Cadillac does not share platforms? Sure they are, maybe not with the new STS or CTS, but they always used to share platforms. Cadillac Deville is the same as Buick Park Avenue (and Chevy Impala?), All Acuras share platform with the Honda cars.

    Of course BMW and MB don't share - they have no "parent companies" to share platforms with! They are both luxury brands on their own.

    But most other brands do share.
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    And it's just a very new development that Cadillac doesn't share platforms too - In fact the Deville still shares the platform with the Buick Park Avenue, as did the Seville until 05, and the Eldo, until it died last year, and the whole damn Cadillac lineup until the Sigma platform came over from, OPEL, which, Oh, my gosh, is shared with OPEL, so Cadillac shares its platform with OPEL! How about that!!! Don't forget too, that the Escalade, Slade EXT and Escalanche are Chevy Trucks, that's platform sharing.
  • Why was my last post in the topic deleted? It explained what I was trying to say- but now there's no trace of it anywhere. Was it deleted because I asked what Bill Ford was snorting?

    Update: No, it seems it was deleted for a partially censored swear.

    Here's the edited post:
     I am well aware that platform sharing- even among luxury brands is nothing new. But to base an expensive Lincoln sports sedan on a cheap underwhelming import? Okay, the Mazda 6 may be built domestically but you get the idea. The previous rebadged Mazdas had a questionable reliability record at best. The Probe is a prime example. Then again, so is so much of the crap Ford is trying to sell these days. The only reliable car they make is very likely the Crown Victoria, which is big, and seriously dated. It doesn't even have Rack and Pinion steering! What is Bill Ford snorting? It must be some powerful stuff if he expects people to choose the Zephyr over it's competition without a serious price advantage. Though the exterior design does look attractive...
  • samnoesamnoe Posts: 731
    First of all, the Crown Vic do have rack & pinion steering since the '04 update.

    Second, The Mazda6 got excellent reviews everywhere for ride and handling, though not for reliability (in contrast to the Mazda3 which have excellent reliability), and reliability is nothing related to platform, just other electronics.

    Do you think that if (Bill) Ford will built a new platform from scratch will be better than the Mazda6? So far Ford had mostly platforms that was not to the liking of most reviewers... Maybe if they would had the cash Toyota have, to sell that many cars for actual customers (not rental or fleets) and without those huge rebates, you can expect one from Ford.

    But so far, it's much cheaper to copy platforms, as they did with the 500 and Montego now which shares the platform with Volvo (FWD as well as AWD), and the new cars and minivans will be shared with the EXCELLENT RATED Mazda6. (Note that I just said excellent rated, b/c I've driven the Mazda6 my self and was not particular impressed).

    Add to that what ANT14 said above, that the actual car can feel totally different than the platform shared vehicle, it could make a difference.

    I myself always questioned the way people look on vehicle platform. Some people actually believe that some platform are bad, and will not look on the car anymore, but mostly they find surprises. For example, the new Buick LaCrosse sits on an old dated platform, and all forecast on this car was that it will be very outdated - but now everybody is impressed with the platform. And so is with the GM vans. I'm sure if you tell people that a car sits on a Lexus or MB platform, everybody would get the car.

    I think that manufacturers should hide (if possible) the platform their cars is built unto, and customers would have no clue whether it's a platform they believe it's good or not. Hence, the Ford 500 sells better than expected due to sharing a Volvo platform.

    So take it in your mind: A Platform means very little to the actual car. It can be tweaked in so many ways, that you can turn a plush Buick into a sports car... Well, almost.
  • I am sorry, I haven't really followed the Crown Victoria's updates since I left Ford in 2002. My mistake.

    My understanding however, is that all 4 cars share a great deal of parts. Correct me if I am wrong, that may very well be the case. I was assuming the transmission would be a Mazda product, and they are usually rather troublesome.

    I think the people should expect Ford to develop their own platforms, at least for their major divisions. They don't have enough money because of greed. They cancelled the cars that provided too much for the money, and replaced them with cars that were cheap to make but appealing enough to consumers to sell at a big markup. Now that those cars have a proven record of being pieces of junk they are in a sticky situation. But they made their bed, and they shall now have to lie in it.

    I am just saying that sharing platforms among similar segments is perfectly okay, but what they are trying to do is make a grand piano with a cheap keyboard.
  • ANT14ANT14 Posts: 2,687
    The transmission used in the Mazda6, are built by Aisin. A company which is 1/3rd owned by Toyota which also supplies transmission to them, and various other automakers.

    Ford is choosing the Mazda6 platform (codenamed) CD3, because as Samnoe stated, it's regarded as one of the best flexible platforms out there. From this platform, 10 vehicles will be spawned. Everything from the new generation of minivans and SUV's, to a few different sedans that will span different brands within Ford.

    I dislike FWD sedan, but was very impressed with the engineering, sophistication and flexibility of that platform. There's no need to use any other platform other than the D3 platform (Volvo's P2).

    Ford has made much more money on the platform of the CV, GM, TC, than pretty much any other vehicle in recent time. That is the companies cash cow since the tooling and engineering have been paid off. Some of the platforms that were VERY sophisticated, yet expensive to produce have been the DEW98 (which is now being used Exlusively for Jaguar, sans Lincoln LS and Tbird), and the MN (90-98 Tbird, Cougar, Mark8).

    You can take a simple platform that's flexible and alter/improve it so much, that it's quite different than it's predessesor. And I've spoken about this in another forum which someone mentioned how the Camry (last time it was refreshened, was totally new) and it's really just a carry over, but much improved. Unfortunately there's no legal guidelines that state "Well, after you change a platform 30%, you must classify it as totally new"... as an example.

    If such a guideline were implemented, the 500/Montego would receive a totally different desgination (apart than Volvo's) as well as the new CD3 (Mazda6 based) sedans.

    Platform sharing also doesn't mean your taking a $12K Focus platform, and dressing it into a $30K Volvo S40. It just means there's a $20-25K quality platform, that will require them to build MANY $15K Focus', for it to become profittable. And that's a good thing, because it allows them to stay focused (pun intended) and continue to improve the platform and vehicle, so the upper sedans based on the same platform, are improved too.

    This isn't the detroit of 10 years ago, things have drastically changed in regards to engineering.
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