Lincoln Zephyr/MKZ

nvbanker · December 2004

That hurt. I do agree though, the American Luxury thing was working. Meanwhile, has Lincoln totally abandoned the LS? That's still a far better car than the Zephur portends to be, why not promote that?

cdnpinhead · December 2004

because:

1) It costs more to make than people are willing to pay for it.

2) The dealers are as clueless as the day is long as to why it's worth what it costs.

ANT14 · December 2004

The LS is being killed off after the Jag S-type/Tbird cycle dies off. It's too costly to produce and build an engine specific to that vehicle. It's financially feasable to keep that platform and engine combination over in Jag (and not even since the value in currency exchange makes it that much more expensive for Jaguars to be imported).

I blame marketing, and Lincoln dealership sales people in not promoting the vehicle. The majority of the sales people have no idea what the vehicle is made from, and rather sell you a TownCar instead.

But that's another long story....

savetheland · December 2004

Before jumping into conclusions lets consider facts.

Jaguar makes AWD car based on Mondeo. The car supposed to be entry level Jag with cheapo interior (I could recognize just by smell and feel that they used parts from Ford). It was criticized before and after introduction and hurt Jaguar image as a luxury car manufacturer.

Note that BMW and Mercedes both make cheap small cars and still nobody cares. Cheap BMW lost comparison test to everyone, including Ford Focus when I watched DW Motorsport last time.

Acura makes all its luxury cars based on FWD Accord platform. Few people complain. But still if you have a choice what would you prefer Acura TL, Jaguar X-class or Zephyr?

So there is nothing new about making cheap entry level car with luxury car moniker. Do you remember Packard Clipper?

Yes, many will say that BMW and Jaguar had no choice, they were only brands they had. Well, then Lincoln could make cheap cars under Mercury brand. Why Ford needs Mercury brand after all if it has to further cheapen Lincoln brand. A good question indeed. Sometimes it is hard to understand what is going on in heads of Ford strategists.

ehaase · December 2004

"Why Ford needs Mercury brand after all if it has to further cheapen Lincoln brand."

Ford needs Mercury brand to keep Lincoln dealers in business. Those dealers can't survive with Lincoln alone.

nvbanker · December 2004

"if you have a choice what would you prefer Acura TL, Jaguar X-class or Zephyr?"

1: X-Class

2: Acura TL

3: Zephur, don't know yet.......

carlisimo · December 2004

None of the new pictures are working. Did they really neuter the Zephyr?

And I don't see the big deal with the chassis. I don't see this car attracting drivers who can feel the difference in chassis setups. And if it's a cheaper car's chassis, well... only 2% of our DNA is different from a halibut's.

fsv · December 2004

was deleted, for whatever reason. Obviously my quote of somebody else. The point is, 207 had link to Zephyr's pic's - check them out: http://forums.autoweek.com/thread.jspa?forumID=31&threadID=11- - 668&tstart=0

I did some research on all the car forums and I found may be 1.5 post not being EXTREMELY negative about Ford's translation of the Zephyr's concepts styling into production and process of decision-naking at Ford.

tincup47 · December 2004

As one who regularly gets to drive an X-type (my own) along with the new XJ, XK, and S-Type, I really question your statement that the interior is cheap and uses Ford parts. I find the same controls in the new XJ that are in my X-type along with real wood in the dash. What Ford have you been in that has an interior with the same parts as the X-type?

Also BMW's 3 series is the comparable entry level vehicle to the X-type and has done nothing to bring BMW's prestige down. In some ways the design and execution of the Bangelized 7 Series are hurting BMW's image more than the new 1 series will ever do.

nvbanker · January 2005

I agree with tincup. I have a dealer friend with Jags on his lot, and friends with lotsa Jags. I think the baby Jag has Jag quality interior for the money in there, just fine..... Looks great, feels great too.

brucelinc · January 2005

I have been about as loyal to Lincoln as anyone - to the point of being hardheaded, my friends might say. However, it is hard to stay loyal when I look at some of the products produced the past few years and what seems to be coming.

I liked the '98 restyle of the TC - but they cheaped the interior and didn't offer the 32 valve 4.6. No longer in the same league with the big Caddies and their Northstar engines. Now, the once proud TC is just another rental car from Budget or Hertz.

The Continental was a glorified Taurus and drove like one - not nearly worthy of its name. Thankfully, it was put out of its misery.

The LS has one of the best platforms in the industry in my opinion. The ride/handling/performance balance of the '00-02 V8 non-sport version is perfect for me. But, the LS has been saddled with a generic name, too-conserative syling, and little to no marketing support. The '03 update addressed some shortcomings but also dropped the non-sport V8 and did nothing to make the car more style expressive. Now the CTS and 300 make the LS look like any 1995 mid-size sedan. No one cares how great it drives anymore.

I won't even mention the Blackwood. At least we have the Mark LT coming....

Now we will soon have the Zephyr. Here was a chance to take a few risks with the styling and stand out from the crowd - but they are playing ultra-conservative again. Also, here was a chance to introduce the car with the Duratec 35 and CVT - but instead we get the same engine that (under)powers Montegos and 500s. As has already been posted, there appears to be no reason for anyone to desire this car.

ANT, your input is excellent and you are appreciated. Now, please tell me that there is a Lincoln on the horizon that the company is really serious about making competitive.

cdnpinhead · January 2005

is not "really serious" about anything except pocketing huge margins on obsolete cars and borrowed trucks.

jagsowner · January 2005

I have now looked over the production model photos at Autoweek link. I am very disappointed... I will be buying a Ford 500 for sure compared to this thing. The neat looking back end tail lights (that on the concept looked neat and hit me like a "swoosh"!), and exhaust (like the neat looking new Acuras) are gone. The interior is not close.. What happened to the "roll top" desk type ribbed center stack?? Now it is just another cheap looking mono-fake satin stack. Also, the wood around the radio has been removed. And the shifter knob looks fake, not real wood. I am disappointed that they felt they needed to darken the wood. The front looks similar to the concept but they really messed up the distintive rear of the concept. I will look at this at the Atlanta auto show, but I will save my money and get a 500 Limited early next year, which I think is a home run.

nvbanker · January 2005

The Zephyr is, after all, "entry level" guys, right? So.......are we expecting a little too much for the entry level money? Frankly, I wasn't expecting much from the Zephyr. It wasn't going to be my next Lincoln. From the beginning, it was going to be too small, on the Mazda 6 platform, too little power, and not enough room inside. It was good looking inside alright, but the concept always is. Would have been nice if the production car would have turned out more like it, but they rarely do make it that far. The LS is too small for me, the Zephyr wasn't going to do it for me. So, I'm not that turned off. Nonetheless, I agree with much that has been said above, I am a Lincoln man to the bone deep, and wish Lincoln would throw off some product that would make me proud. I'm happy for now, but clearly, were it not for the Navigator, I would be "lookin around" and thinkin about cheatin.......

ANT14 · January 2005

Bruce,

It's true what you state. There's been some vehicles in Lincolns stable that have been a bit lackluster compared to other entries. There was even a time (late 90's) where Lincoln really just had 3 vehicles selling at that time, yet one year they posted record sales.

Directions and priorities changed, and lowering fleet sales have been a priority. The Navi has helped Lincoln quite a bit, and the LS (under the previous direction) helped revive the brand from a glorified Crown Vic=TC and Taurus=Conti (Mark8 killed 98).

But let's not concentrate too much on what the LS was, moreso the future entries debuting in a few years. While indeed the LS has great ride/handling (I'm on my 2nd for that reason), it's still a vehicle designed in 98-99 for 00. Hence, the new vehicles being designed NOW, debuting in a year or 2 or 3, actually have a better performing structure/platform than what the LS has.

For personal use, I always chose the "over-engineered" platforms from Ford. Some examples, Tbird/Cougar/Mark8 in the 90's (MN112), LS (DEW98) 00-07.

Personally, I'm very impressed at the quality and over-engineering of the 500/Freestyle platform (D3), just as I was with the LS (DEW98) back in 99. And this new (D3) platform will surely be the over-engineered platform Ford will use for this decade. Now, that's just the skeleton and main ingredient. The brains, the muscles, and joints are what will make it excel.

Although without having to stray off the topic. You can have a "weaker" platform, but require MORE work to help it hold up and keep it fresh... that at some point your adding hundreds of pounds to a vehicle with minimal gains (last generation Mustang). You might as well just start from scratch (as Ford did).

But notice how Lincoln (in it's next entries) will solidify it's standing as "American Luxury". What is American luxury? A vehicle that is economically accessible for Americans. One example will be the Mark LT starting at $39K. Compare that with the ill-fated Blackwoods' pricing, or even the Escalade for that matter.Similar situation will occur with the Zephyr, as well as the next Aviator.

Reminds me of the pricing speculation the media reported over the 500/Freestyle. Some were bad mouthing Ford for even trying to offer a $30-40K sedan, yet many were shocked to hear it would start at $23K.

And while Lincoln will offer vehicles up to a certain price range, there's always Jaguar, Land Rover, Aston Martin which command higher prices.

There's a few tricks up Lincolns sleaves... Don't concentrate on some expensive, upper echelon, ultra-luxury V-12 performance super sedan that's unrealistic.... instead, ecomically accessible vehicles that boast american luxury.

Jagsowner,

As I mentioned in the beginning of this forum, the light wood was probably something that would be killed. They usually reflect off the windshield and can pose a safety hazzard. Same with the large volume of chrome and the ribbed panel.

Instead of the expense of those items, that investment was better used to improve the leather, soft-touch panels, carpeting, and plastics...Items we'll touch much more.

fsv · January 2005

we hear about them since early 90. The only thing that was done somehow - it was LS. It is easier to believe in WMD in Iraq, than in seriousness of Ford execs to do anything good for Lincoln. If they are up to any good, do Zephyr right and do it now...

"Are we being too hard to please guys?" I don't think so. Many on this forum are Ford owner out of unexplainable loyalty, hoping that there is something for us in the future. Each of us could have gone out and gotten same or better product from other manufacturers. In return we don't see any desire to do their job from execs, forget about loyalty from Ford, in this instance Mercury/Lincoln.

heyjewel · January 2005

has finally stood up. I just looked at the photos linked to above and all I got to say is "What a shame." The concept looked real nice. But the prod version I see in those pix looks like a gussied-up econobox, which I guess is what it is. The tail end design is so bad now - what that H... happened to the beautiful tail design of the concept? Why the h... did they change that? It looks like an old Saturn, cept for the tail lights.

Plus, the d... thing engineered in Japan and is made in Mexico. I want an AMERICAN car, not one which threw Americans out of work.

Think I'll be looking at a Japanese car next. At least THEY are made in America!

The only thing this is an entry to is Lincoln's epitaph.

nvbanker · January 2005

I see what you mean about the taillights, at least. The concept LED taillights would have at least been nice to have held onto. I don't mind the front end - reminds me of the 92 Continental I owned.

savetheland · January 2005

The irony how things developed last 10 years not only Cadillac becoming superior to Lincoln, but that VW now makes more luxurious cars than Lincoln. Who could imagine it in 60s and 70s.

The questions we asking now are more like "will Zephyr be as good as new Passat" , than "will it be able to compete with likes of Mercedes or Caddy or even Audi".

carlisimo · January 2005

Oh man it's true, the real thing doesn't have the character that the concept had. It didn't look like the concept was difficult to mass-manufacture. Oh well, Lincoln's gonna remain an old fogey brand to me.

brucelinc · January 2005

Sorry if it seems like I am ranting, but another comment or two:

When I look at the Zephyr and its specs, the term "adequate" comes to mind. "Adequate" might be fine for a $17,000 Taurus but you expect more even from an "entry-level" luxury car. For my money it needs something that is special to make it worth more than a 500, a loaded Camry, or Accord. I just don't see anything very special about the Zephyr, so far.

Lincoln really has some heritage when it comes to style - the earlier Marks or the 61 Continental, for example. Recently it seems that Lincoln (and Ford) has taken the approach of "bland will not offend anyone." I think Cadillac and Chrysler have proven that it is OK to think outside of that box.

As for platforms, I have no major problem with the Mazda6 or the D3. My preference would have been the DEW98 or even the less expensive Mustang version (except with IRS). The added weight, complexity, and friction of AWD doesn't make sense to me yet, but I will keep an open mind.

Regardless of the platform, I just think American Luxury should mean something special - expressive styling, exceptional performance, or something that sets it apart from a low-end vehicle with lots of options.

I really look forward to hearing more about the Lincoln version of the D3.

ehaase · January 2005

Regarding the Zephyr, page 38 of the February 2005 issue of Car and Driver says: ". . thankfully, much of the style and panache and concept are retained in the production version." If the hypercritical C&D can make such a comment, obviously, people on the message boards are carrying on too much.

buckwheat · January 2005

There might be some merit to that but then again it is subjective, (referring to the differences between concept & production).

Car and Driver quote;

". . thankfully, much of the style and panache and concept are retained in the production version."

I'm not completely convinced the new photos are produced or authorized by Ford, that is to say "are they actual Ford Motor Co. photos?"

The car will be on display this month at the Detroit NAIAS and the truth should be known then..

carlisimo · January 2005

Gotta agree with brucelinc. I've said it before; American cars across the board are currently "value purchases," not aspirational ones. They're cars people settle for, and that means they'll sell when they're on sale more than anything else.

It could've been unique at least in styling, inside and out...

fsv · January 2005

they say, that journalism/(reporter) is second profession in the world, after - you all know, what the first profession was, right?

hypercritical C&D???!!!

"The car will be on display this month at the Detroit NAIAS" - let's wait. For sake of whatever loyalty is left in all of us toward Lincoln, CD better be right...

fsv · January 2005

Just found it in News:

http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=101535 (this is link to news, not to autoforum!!!)

"Fisker scissors Ford ties

As of late December, Henrik Fisker has resigned from Ford, where he served as director of advanced design producing the Lincoln Zephyr..."

I wonder why...

buckwheat · January 2005

Within a few days the Detroit NAIAS show starts, on their website they now show two new photos along with a number of original concept photos.

I guess they are covering the bases, but it appears the production car will be different..

http://www.autoweek.com/files/specials/2005_detroit/lincoln/zephy- r/pages/6LincolnZephyr_02_hr.htm

ANT14 · January 2005

Next generation THX certified Stereo system...

http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=19884

fsv · January 2005

I have a suggestion: judging by activity on this forum (obviously inspired by "good" looks of the car and Fords inability and unwillingliness to fullfill even the most innocent hopes of it's loyalists) to rename Zephyr while it is still not late. Name Lincoln Cimarron will fit it much better, since it is the best ever recreation of a situation of a miserable GM failure ever matched by Ford.

Fusion looks much more attractive thank's to front fascia, don't you guys agree?

nedc2 · January 2005

No! I like the Fusion, and while I'm not fond of the taillights on the Zephyr, they're far more attractive than the tuner specials on the Fusion. The interiors of both vehicles seem atrractive, but the Zephyr's is obviously a Lincoln design. I really don't think it's fair to do much more comparison between the two vehicles until pricing is announced and one has actually had hands on experience with both vehicles. Only then will one be able to make a reasonable judgement on their relative values.

fsmmcsi · January 2005

After being very interested in the Five Hundred and Montego, then very diasppointed by the things they did wrong (too small engine, squeezed footwells, lack of fancy features common on many other cars, wide and boxy center consiole), the Fusion and Zephyr show that Ford is getting better with each new model.

I especially like the interior, and am glad that Lincoln has finally abandoned the "monument to the license plate" design and moved the ugly thing down into the bumper where it belongs.

The key question will be the price. Since it does not have rear wheel drive or a powerful engine, it should be priced well below the $35,000 cars which do have those features (e.g. 300C, I35, and CTX).

While the 3.0 is inadequate in the bigger cars, it should be just fine in these substantially lighter vehicles.

I like the interior so much that I hope that I do not wind up buying a Charger or Magnum just to meet my atypical needs for carrying bulky equipment for my business. I see that Ford is continuing the trend of offering larger than typical trunks on all of their new vehicles. It adds greatly to the practicality, while probably adding very little to the weight and cost, and probably improving the rear crash performance to meet the upcoming requirements.

ANT14 - will there be a Fusion/Milan/Zephy wagon, or will the next minivan be based on this platform?

ANT14 · January 2005

The prices will be WELL south of $35K. Many interior items/surfaces of the Fusion/Zephyr are better tuned for better tactile quality to avoid the critisizm some had over the 500's interior.

Yes, next minivan will be based upon this platform which can also accept AWD drivetrain as well. Something Ford is trying to implement quite a bit of.

buckwheat · January 2005

Squeezed footwells won't be avoided in this car, check out the following, click to increase the photo size and you will see the angle on the left reduces foot space. While this is a photo of the original concept interior I don't think this part changed. Aside from the clearly disappointing rear end it is still a reasonably nice car, not as nice as the concept though.

http://www.seriouswheels.com/pics-2006/2006-Lincoln-Zephyr-Dash-1- - 600x1200.jpg

ANT14 · January 2005

The concept vehicle was 8/10th production sized, therefore what you see, will be bigger.

The footwells will accept Size 14 shoes, and was designed to make it easier on ingress/degress for such large shoes. Which mean door openings were increased as well.

fsmmcsi · January 2005

Good observation, buckwheat (by the way, my favorite pancakes), and very interesting, ANT14 about the concept being 8/10. I don't know anywhere else on the Internet where such information is so readily available. This is just one more indication that Ford really is listening, learning, and then acting to improve their designs. By the way, the Mazda 6 footwells do not feel as squeezed as the Five Hundred, and since the Zephyr is wider, it should be even better.

ehaase · January 2005

Rename it the Lincoln Versailles. The Zephyr is to the Fusion/Milan as the Versailles was to the Granada/Monarch. The Zephyr is not an ugly car, and I don't dislike it, but I'd rather have a Mercury Montego.

buckwheat · January 2005

Think there are any carryovers from this Zephyr the original 1936 model, bet you there was plenty of footwell space.

http://www.seriouswheels.com/pics-1930-1939/1936-Lincoln-Zephyr-1- - - 280x960.jpg

grega · January 2005

There is overwhelming negative response (90%+) on the web chat rooms to the Zephyr.

The production version lost all of the sex appeal that the concept promised - long and low with bigger tires and tight bumpers and beautiful lower fascia details. THis could have set Lincoln apart and given it some design DNA that makes it sexy.

But the production model with the shortened and upright look of a Camry and "Giant" tailights do NOTHING to inspire positive emotion to buy this car. THere are just too many better choices in the market with more sex appeal and HP - G35, TL, CTS, BMW, Audi etc.

Ant - why would anyone really consider buying this warmed over, un-sexy pile of !@#$%?

Lincoln had another opportunity (ref. 2000 LS) to really define itself and standout, but they took the safe road. Even the president of Lincoln says they are only forecasting 40,000 sales with the 3.5 engine and AWD. So how many do they expect to sell until then, maybe 20,000 to the greyhairs, because no one 30-45 is going to buy this when you can get the awaresome 300C!

fsmmcsi · January 2005

grega,

To me, the Zephyr is far nicer looking inside and out than the 300C, and I don't think the G35, TL, and others are anything to write home about.

However, the Zephyr will have to handle, ride, and stop well, accelerate nicely with the 3.0, be quiet, be equipped with the fancy features those other cars all have, and be no more than $30,000 to have a chance.

Also, don't forget the new Charger, which to me looks better than the 300C, and which will be priced well under the 300C.

grega · January 2005

Your's is just one opinion and my point is the mass majority think Lincoln (again) missed a styling opportunity.

As far as the G35, TL and 300C, just look at their sales numbers, all are way over 50,000 per year and the Zephyr doesn't expect those kind of numbers. Makes you think Lincoln knew all along they have a dog on their hands. The only way to have any success is price below $30K price with a load of features.

Again, not an emotional sale, a price-driven sale!

ANT14 · January 2005

"Ant - why would anyone really consider buying this warmed over, un-sexy pile of !@#$%? "

All depends on what the person needs and what they are looking for in a car. It'll be priced rather reasonably, and will have AWD made available soon after. Sales target is around 30K.

grega · January 2005

Ant - But, if a customer wants luxury, 250hp, good looking car with an emotional "buy" factor, there are just too many better choices than the Zephyr!

Is there any hope of Lincoln delaying the fall'05 intro and fixing some of the styling problems that these chat rooms are ranting about?

We, the participants of these chat rooms, are the key "influentials" that create the buzz for a product and spread positive (or negative) word-of-mouth. You'd think Lincoln would respect what we are saying and gave us some response to these concerns before its too late.

ANT14 · January 2005

I understand that, but most of the time when people head into forums of discussion, it's over some problem or issue they are having. While the styling clinics overwhemingly approved a specific vehicle, we won't see compliments gushing out either.

Granted, if it were up to me I would have implemented various other items into the car, such as the 3.5L V6, or even 3.9L V8, but because of various other factors, it wasn't able to at this time.

What the vehicle does have is 6 speed, Availability of AWD, a few other toys included as well, all at a good price. The Zephyr wasn't ment to compete directly against a BMW or G35, those vehicles are tailored to be a bit sporty, while the Zephyr is more about luxury indulgance and pampering.

The next LS, will definately be the performing vehicle those people can shop for.

grega · January 2005

I appreciate your feedback and like you, I owned a 2000 LS8 Sport for 3-years. Too many quality problems with that car even though it drove and performed reasonably well. I look forward to the next generation and hope Lincoln (please) take some design risks and give us something to get emotional about.

Your designers for the past 5-years have talked about the new style & theme for Lincoln, but the Zephyr is a real disappointment.

I understand it shares the platform and center section (doors, windshields & roof) with the great looking Fusion and up coming Milan - they could do well. The butt-ugly backend needs work, even the heavy chrome licenseplate surround looked better, at least it was a consistent Lincoln theme.

If you're planning only 30,000 sales, I predict you'll canibalize 10K Towncars and 10K LS's and 10K from the old Continental crowd.

savetheland · January 2005

Zephyr has a strange look for a small car. I mean that grill and ins. panel does not belong there, it belong to something like 1966 Lincoln. But it is IMHO of course. I have to see the car in flesh, sit in a cabin and drive it to decide does it worth consideration.

But my question is in what aspect it is better than Milan? The suspension looks identical, engines are the same, even switches and radio/climate controls are the same. Steering wheel looks the same. So why to pay more, for what?

fsv · January 2005

Fusion's look is sort of cool... Mercury tends to be better value, than Ford. So, may be Milan is an option. Let's wait. Still sorry for messing up Zephyr so bad. Testdrove Acura TL yesterday. Marvelous. May be it is it, if Ford can not do anything for me?

fsmmcsi · January 2005

For 30,000 annual sales, I see why they did not bother to develope new rear fenders to allow for the narrow lights of the concept. All they did was come up with a different skin for the trunk lid and a different rear bumper cover. It will be interesting to see the whole new Lincoln line-up. If the pampering means quiet and smooth, good, but let's hope it does not mean wallowy and floaty like the current Town Car.

nvbanker · January 2005

" let's hope it does not mean wallowy and floaty like the current Town Car."

No disrespect intended fsm....but when was the last time you drove a Town Car? 1989? They're not that floaty anymore. Big they are, smooth and quiet yes, but they are quite precise and nimble now. The old understeer is long gone now, they are well balanced, peppy and a delight to drive aggresively on any turnpike. No longer a land yacht anymore, yet still very roomy and comfortable. At least, that's how I see them. I'm not saying they're a Turbo Carrera, but they're almost identical to a Lexus LX-430. The Zephyr will likely be stiffer, but also less isolated, quiet & comfy.

ANT14 · January 2005

"If you're planning only 30,000 sales, I predict you'll canibalize 10K Towncars and 10K LS's and 10K from the old Continental crowd. "

Actually the vehicle is different in numerous ways from the Town Car, and LS, it really won't cannabilize as many sales from those two. Plus many conquest sales are expected.

fsmmcsi · January 2005

nvbanker, the last time I drove a rental town car was the winter of 2003, so maybe it did not have the same suspension and frame as they now use. I can't remember when they changed it. The Town car would be an excellent vehicle with two simple changes - an optional 3-valve 5.4 V8, and a modern interior (mainly a new instrument panel and door panels, along the lines of the Zephyr and Navigator), and one not-so simple change - an independent rear suspension (maybe the '97 Thunderbird / Cougar / Mark VIII design would work).

Lincoln Zephyr/MKZ

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