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Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    BMWs are both the ultimate driving sedans and ugliest driving sedans. It’s the former quality that sells them. Had they built a better looking 5 they would sell many more. Given the pathetic state of vehicles in this thread there isn’t much to choose from anyway with regard to styling. We are living in the age of ugly—the GS is a porpoise, the M is a watermelon, the A6 is a fish groping for food, the E is a dorkmobile. So, what do I do if I want a great driving sedan? Shrug, pick the 5. But I’d go into it kicking and screaming because it’s fugly wuggly.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    And the Jag S-Type is?

    M
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,331
    Most people are critical of how a car looks. It's human nature. We are hung up on attractiveness-whether it's people or cars. We want to be seen in an attractive vehicle.

    Thanks to Chris Bangle, LPS buyers now have an obvious choice for performance and smart, bold, aggressive styling.
    Judging from the sales figures, the vast majority of LPS buyers agree with me.
    Criticize all you want.
    The people have spoken. The Bangle E60 is the preferred LPS.

    Ladies, gentlemen and the stubborn unconverted:
    I proudly present to you the BMW E60 sedan!
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Not sure if I can comment on the front end of the S-type without being censored. That grille is quite successful with human anatomy, but not on a car.

    ;-)
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Can you please explain your apparent catharsis? Didn’t you slam Bangle last year when you were shopping around?
  • docnukemdocnukem Member Posts: 485
    Where've you been? Hpowders has proudly presented the E60 only 40-50 times.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    You're hard to please, maybe impossibly so because this group of cars doesn't look nearly as bad as you stated, IMO of course. The only ones that don't look like anything and/or are unnattractive are the GS and STS to me.

    M
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,331
    It's very simple. If you go back and read my posts from long ago in yesteryear, you will see that I said the E60 was not photogenic-a position I have never changed. Based on the photos alone, I was critical of the Bangle design. At that time, I had never actually seen one.

    Someone on another forum asked me to post photos of my new 545. I refused and still refuse because the photos would not do the vehicle justice.

    I also posted that I visited a relative and saw an E60 in person for the first time at his house. I wrote that I was extremely impressed and marvelled at how the car could be so breathtaking in person and yet photograph so poorly.

    Once I saw it and then drove it, the choice for me was obvious.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,331
    You are correct Docnukem. It has been 47 glorious and proud times.
    Of course, even I can do better, and one of my New Year resolutions is to expand and enlighten even more for those of you who have been given eyes and unfortunately cannot see.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    OK, we’re getting somewhere. Now, look me square in the eye and tell me styling was a major reason you bought the 5. Look me square in the eye and tell me performance wasn’t numero uno, and by a wide margin.
  • drtraveldrtravel Member Posts: 395
    Just curious... how many forum members actually buy their LPS? If you rented, why not buy?
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    You're hard to please, maybe impossibly so…

    The first half of that is true. But Porsches still live up to my expectations. And off the top of my head I like the styling of the following everyday cars, all current versions in no order of importance,

    Sonata
    XG350
    Accord
    Civic
    Scion
    LF-Sh concept
    Passat (sort of)
    Sky

    I did like the IS but it has grown down on me. And of course I wear the Boxster styling like my skin. There are others which currently escape me...

    Hard, not impossible ;-)
  • drtraveldrtravel Member Posts: 395
    While you are looking designman squarely in the eye, tell him that the badge was not an important factor plus tell him about your love affair with Mr. Bangle - is he really godlike? Sorry host, couldn't resist - too much caffeine this morning.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    And off the top of my head I like the styling of the following everyday cars, all current versions in no order of importance,

    Sonata
    XG350
    Accord
    Civic
    Scion
    LF-Sh concept
    Passat (sort of)
    Sky


    Ok, tell me you're kidding about the XG350 and Accord, those are two of the ugliest/blandest cars going, IMO. This new Passat is too bulbuous to me like it more than the previous generation car - at least so far. Though I have yet to see it with the right wheels, it still looks good, but not enough of a leap over the old car. Wheelbase looks too short and maybe too large of a rear overhang. Please tell me you're talking about the Scion TC, which is an ok looking car, but far to tall and and slad-sided for a coupe. The new Civic Coupe is ok, the only thing messing it up being the A-pillar/windshield treatment. They slicked back the windshield with no regards to how it would look relative to the rest of the car. The new Sonata is actually a decent looking car along with the Ford Fusion. The Accord and XG350? :sick:

    Some of my recent favorites: 996 Turbo and C4S, Quattroporte, F360, Murcielago, and of course I wear the Boxster styling like my skin.

    Now these I can agree on no doubt. I'll be waiting for you tell me "gotcha" with that first list of cars though.

    M
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    I don't believe for one minute that he bought it for the badge. I also don't believe you understand why most people buy BMWs.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Please tell me you're talking about the Scion TC

    Yes it is the tC. Sorry about that.

    Ok, tell me you're kidding about the XG350 and Accord…

    Nope, sorry, I am quite serious. The Accord has returned to normalcy and the XG350 is a good cheap knockoff of Bentley styling.

    I'll be waiting for you tell me "gotcha" with that first list of cars though.

    Maybe you’re the one who should be telling me “gotcha” with the 300C and the grille on the S8 is it? Throw in the plump, endomorphic Vantage V8 also.

    Merc, that 300C styling reminds me of these hip-hop kids who wear baggy clothes and flat-billed baseball caps that are 10 sizes too big for them and hang over their ears. Is the Merc who likes the 300C the same guy who likes the Quattroporte?

    ;-)
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Merc, that 300C styling reminds me of these hip-hop kids who wear baggy clothes and flat-billed baseball caps that are 10 sizes too big for them, hanging over their ears. Is this the same guy who likes the Quattroporte?

    Yes its me. Love the Quattroporte right along with the 300C, well now the 300C SRT8 to be exact. One is gorgeous and slick, the other brash and bold, but both beautiful imo. The S8 is another favorite, correct!

    image
    Noting wrong with this to me, in fact it looks good, or better than good to me.

    Now you know I'll not have any bad talk about any Aston-Martins! :mad: They make the most gorgeous car on the planet - the DB9!

    M
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    "one must credit the company for boldly going where no man has gone before."

    "Just one small step for mankind"...huh" Powder...you should have been on my sales team. It's good to see that kind of passion for anything.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I lease.

    My two dealers, in Cincinnati -- one Audi (of the two in the city) and one BMW (also of the two in our little town) -- have told me that at least 3 out of every 4 of the cars they sell are leased.

    The dealer who owns the Audi dealer also owns (or used to) a VW dealer -- he says it used to be virtually no leased VW's, now, not so much.

    My CPA said years ago: buy what appreciates, rent what depreciates. With subvented leases from so many companies, it is sometimes difficult to NOT lease.

    Audi and BMW seem to want you to get into a cycle of making permanent payments, always having a young car and always having it cared for at no additional cost.

    I do not know if this is really sound -- I have read the posts that conclusively prove you should never lease and those that say cars depreciate so quickly that subvented leases are the only way to go. Both camps are often wrong, but NEVER uncertain.

    To each his/her own.

    If my miles per year were to drop to 10,000, perhaps I would consider buying and holding.

    On the other hand, I like the new technology that seems to come out every two or three years, so I just keep going back to the market and saying to myself "gotta have the new tech!"

    Some of my friends buy ONE car (usually a pickup truck or SUV or minivan with 0% interest -- remember that?) and lease another. They tell themselves they will keep their purchased vehicle "until the wheels turn square."

    What inevitably seems to transpire is that in month 49, after all the payments have been made, the car needs a four figure repair, then another, then new tires then then then -- and son of a gun if they don't bail out of their "it's paid for" statement because they keep pouring money into a 4 or 5 model year old vehicle. Despite what would probably be an overall lower cost to buy and hold, they just get so disenchanted with their old car (that they keep making payments -- service payments -- on) they repeat the cycle with the certainty that "this time it will be different."

    The only one I know that actually made this work was the guy who bought the 5 year old SUV (that was in really good shape) for a song and kept it another 5 years, had it repainted and sold it for what he paid for it.

    I could never make this kind of thing work.

    Cars -- to me -- are like computers and electronics, they just keep moving the tech (and design) forward so much, I just like to have the latest and greatest.

    My wife does the same thing with running shoes and pens.

    But she too has never had a car more than 3 MY old.

    Maybe opposites don't attract, after all.

    Drive it like you live. :shades:
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    Good headline....can't go with you on the A8 tho'...agree with the oversize comments. But the DB9...Amazing...beyond LPS and then some! Merc...can you post a picture of it for us please... http://www.astonmartin.com/thecars/db9 ...
    Trivia question for you Ian Fleming fans: Which James Bond novel featured Bond driving an Aston Martin?
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    . . .an S8 would be my choice.

    Must be the kid in me, but for me the S8 is The Batmobile.
  • c5_4func5_4fun Member Posts: 59
    I happened to run across a new '05 RL and am considering buying it for $42K. However, I'm also interested in the M and GS; probably the AWD versions so I can get through the snow. Its unfortunate the AWD versions are only 6cyl's as I typically run my cars hard (and can always use more power!). Has anyone done this comparison and have any guidance?
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    I bought mine. Never have leased a car and never will.
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    You, of course, are an expert on why we all bought our BMW's right? Fact is, people buy cars for lots of different reasons. I bought mine for a combination of reasons. Performance, styling, comfort and (I know you'll find this hard to believe) I happen to like electronic gadgets in my cars so even that played a part in my decision.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Infiniti Q45

    Hyundai XG350

    The Hyundai XG350 copied the old Infiniti Q45 pretty much to the letter. Talk about the blind leading the blind. Ugly, and boring. I dont think the '06 Accord is that much of an improvement over the old car. The front still looks the same, and I think the back actually looks more bulbous now than it did with the horizontal light bar. I think the '07 Camry is going to put A LOT of pressure on Honda to come up with an Accord thats not an eyesore.

    I dont like the Passat either. It gained like a foot in body length, with basically no increase in wheelbase, so the front and rear are literally hanging off the car.

    Definitely agree about the LF-Sh though :)
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The M35x has plenty of muscle. The RL isnt bad, but the powerband is higher than the M's, so it doesnt feel as strong off of the line. The GS300 AWD is a little slow. As for handling, the M is the sportiest of the three, the RL is somewhere in the middle, and the GS is the softest. The M has the best use of interior space. Considering the street price of the RL, its basically a bargain compared to the M and GS. They offer all of the RL's standard equipment of course, but you'll pay a lot more than $42K for it. Whether they are worth the extra money is up to you. The RL definitely isnt a bad choice though, the owners here seem to be quite happy with their choice.
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    The RL is a great handling car with enough power unless you are into drag racing. It is a superior steal for 42 G's. If you decide to buy it have them replace the Michelin OE's with the better Michelin Pilot ultra performance all-seasons.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,331
    Of course, performance was the prime factor. Nobody gets a BMW for its great exteriors and interiors.
    But if I considered the E60 hideous, I would have gone with a 2003 E39.

    I also agree that the new Accord is one smart-looking car.
    I may pick one up just to see what life is like riding among the common folk.
  • kgarykgary Member Posts: 180
    Rich,

    I am with you. I don't believe in leasing or financing. I either own it, or I don't. By the way, I love my 05 A6 4.2.

    Kevin
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,331
    The badge is so important to me that if I were offered the choice between a Mercedes E class and a Honda Accord EX 6, I would without any hesitation choose the Accord and if I could find a $28,000 car that handled like a BMW, I wouldn't hesitate in changing brands.
    Since that will probably never happen in my lifetime, I will continue enjoying BMW's. I certainly do not enjoy paying a highway robbery premium to drive a BMW.
    I have plenty of other things I could be doing with some of that money.
    But what it really comes down to mrtravel is: I will be the one laughing on all those sharp little twisties.
  • starman98starman98 Member Posts: 119
    An all new Accord is scheduled for the 2008 model year.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,331
    Good to hear.
    I will be watching for it.
    My neighbor just got a 2006 Accord in white and that is one handsome looking vehicle.
    I may test drive one in 2 weeks.
    I would not be at all surprised if I wind up liking the Accord EX 6 better than the Lexus GS300 for interior room, engine pick-up and handling.
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    "I also agree that the new Accord is one smart-looking car.
    I may pick one up just to see what life is like riding among the common folk."

    DOH! :surprise:
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,331
    ;)
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    That's good to hear because the 4.2 A6 may very well be the next car I buy. I love my wife's 3.2 A6 Avant. I know that the 4.2 is slightly slower than the 550, but I wouldn't be surprised if they offer a newer engine in a couple of years. Not that there's anything wrong with the current 4.2. I'm sure it's plenty fast enough, and with a kid on the way I'd say my need for speed is going to be a thing of the past. I love the nav system and MMI in general.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,331
    No more sales.
    Full time golfer.
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    I worked with a gentleman for 20 years who kept us all amused, not only because he was funny or witty but because he had the uncanny ability to come up with comments or ideas no one else thinks about. Makes you stop and think....

    I'll be riding around in the comfort of my lovable RL for the rest of the weekend but my wife's Civic would be just fine. (Common folk and enjoying it) :D

    No more sales either...full time racquetball competitor/traveler. (Golf raises H--- with my lower back.)
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,331
    On this we agree.
    If I could only find a $28k vehicle that handled like a BMW, I would switch in a minute.
    It's really all about the fun.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,331
    Whenever I travel, I get the cheapest rental car available at the airport.
    The thought that anyone may be looking down at me because I am driving a Ford Focus just never enters my mind.
    Several weeks ago, that's what I rented and found it had a delightful amount of handling spunk!
    When I am in my 545, I am truly oblivious to other drivers.
    Who cares what they think?
    I can't believe people can be that insecure!
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,331
    Speaking of the lower back, I feel the lumbar-suported driver's seat is absolutely the greatest thing to happen to vehicles in recent times.
    I had 2 325's, neither of which had the lumbar support.
    After driving for 1 1/2 hours, I would have to get out and stretch.
  • kgarykgary Member Posts: 180
    I have two kids of my own. I had the video entertainment system installed in the headrests. Its a must when the time comes.

    Kevin
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    The Hyundai XG350 copied the old Infiniti Q45 pretty much to the letter. Talk about the blind leading the blind. Ugly, and boring.

    Thanks for pointing that out Lexusguy. The front always reminded me of something but I never realized it was the Q45 until today, probably because there is hardly a Q on the road. The rear is distinctly Bentley. Yes, I’ll accept the “boring” characterization, but in my opinion boring beats ugly and feeble attempts at being different. In addition to the spectacular and flamboyant dream machines, I am a fan of simple, unassuming, everyday wash-and-wear cars that you can don like a pair of jeans.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    You, of course, are an expert on why we all bought our BMW's right?

    Yes, I have a PhD in Automotive Sociology, I teach graduate courses at Harvard on the Global Social Effects of Banglization, and am a Nobel Prize Laureate in BMW Buying.

    Fact is, people buy cars for lots of different reasons. I bought mine for a combination of reasons. Performance, styling, comfort and (I know you'll find this hard to believe) I happen to like electronic gadgets in my cars so even that played a part in my decision.

    I understand. My wife is the same way with gadgets. I have an attic full of them collecting dust. Now, tell the class and Professor Designman the main reason why you bought your awesome 545. Can we come to any significant conclusion as to why performance was mentioned first on your list? Don’t bother answering, we’ve beat this subject to death and I plead guilty!

    ;-)
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Merc, that S8 grille looks like a sewer grid. People will be inclined to throw candy wrappers and cigarette butts into it. And it has the net effect of some fat ol’ plumber walking around with a big square patch cut out of from the seat of his pants. Help me out, am I missing something?
  • drtraveldrtravel Member Posts: 395
    I also don't believe you understand why most people buy BMWs.

    I have actually owned a BMW and M-B and have become personal friends with sales managers from both brands although they have both moved on to other dealers. We have actually chatted about what motivates people to buy their particular car and how important they felt their brand was in the decision process. Our general conclusion was that people do indeed buy cars for lots of different reasons and yes the brand is a factor - more so to some than others. The goal of the salesperson is to extract as much money from you as possible. One method is too find out which factor is important to the buyer and use it against you. Some of their comments were really bizarre. I wish more salespersons hung out here and would offer their honest opinions. Some interesting comments included that they were surprised that many who could afford these cars were not really that sophisticated of car buyers - of course no one on Edmunds falls into this group - but it is surprising how ill-prepared some LPS buyers are. And some do buy the brand but felt that admitting this made them appear shallow so they deny it 1000% - again no one on Edmunds falls into this group. I'm sure other Edmund forum members have heard even better stories.

    Every once in awhile I try to stir up the pot to generate some thinking outside the box and see if anyone has any more insight into why people buy these cars. Mark always has some great things to add. Do I understand why most people buy BMWs or M-Bs? Not really but then again neither do most people including the extremely intelligent members in this forum. At least I'll admit it. I can tell you why I bought a particular car but these cars sell close to 20,000 every month. What factors were critical to these people? And realize that the members on this forum represent an infintestimal number of these buyers.

    Unfortunately I have also becomes friends with the service managers but that's another story.

    At least my buying vs. renting message stirred up a little activity.
  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    Ha--I wondered why all those wrappers etc. were in there...
  • james27james27 Member Posts: 433
    I previously had an A6. Ordered it without a sunroof way back when. Liked it. The new ones can only be purchased without a sunroof if ordered nearly bare. There were several things that I want on a luxury car, and you can't get them on Audi without a sunroof package. I just don't fit in the new one with a sunroof. I tried the BMW, the Lexus, the Acura, the MB (not only not enough room, two other things - when the seat is back, you have to crawl around the door pilar to get out, and the new one I sat in and closed the door, it RATTLED! on a $60K car - brand new), then I tried the M35x. It was the only one that I could find a comfortable seating position where my hair or head didn't hit the roof. Now, I 'm not all that tall, but am long waisted. Personally, I'd prefer no sunroof, but since the Mxx chasis is tall, and I fit and it had the other things I cared for in this kind of car, it was my best compromise. Now, if you could buy one of these with things like the xenon lamps and a few other things without a sunroof, I'd think of other things. BTW, the dealer checked the US inventory on Audi - three cars in stock without sunroofs - one in FL, and two in HI. I live in NH, so, also, since I won't buy one without driving it first, thatwas out of the question. So far, I'm happy with the Infiniti. Liked some things on the Audi better, but the M does handle better (ride's worse, but not much) and I was getting tired with the old one.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,331
    The E60 looks absolutely awesome from the side- a really aggressive, aerodynamic design. No car in its class looks so good from the side.
    So given a winning design plus best performance in its class translates into a total mega-hit for BMW.
    The sales figures don't lie.
    Is there any other LPS of the cars included in this thread that has a better sales record from 2004-2005 than the BMW E60?
    You folks may be envious and jealous but please don't take it out on me.
    I am only the messenger and there will be a lot more where that came from.
    If BMW's success upsets some of you so much, I guess you will just have to find an E60 to key.
    Perhaps that will help ease your pain.

    Thanks again Chris Bangle. You are indeed a god among men.
    Combining the expected BMW performance with such an innovative and challenging new design has breathed new life into a car that was really starting to look a bit boring and stale. (the uninspiring E39)
    When the dictionary defines awesome, it should include a photo of you to help folks comprehend the true meaning of the word.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I understand they were trying to bring back the classic Auto Union grill, but even the old ones were not THAT big. I think they need to tone down the gaping mouth just a tad.

    Old audi grill
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,331
    Great news for all you BMW admirers out there-should be at least 2 of you at last count:

    November 2005 sales of the 5 series are up a whopping 43.2% compared to November 2004.

    Another piece of evidence adding to the Chris Bangle success story.

    For those of you BMW detractors-should be 18 at last count-who are getting even more frustrated as the unbearable truth is revealed in more sharpened focus, my advice would be to take deep breaths and count to 10 slowly. And then just accept it.
    There's Death, Taxes and Bangle.

    Just trying to help...
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