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Luxury Performance Sedans



  • docnukemdocnukem Posts: 485
    I am a little confused as to why all your percentages seem to have differing degrees of accuracy/uncertainty. Some seem to have 5 or 6 significant digits to the right of the decimal, while one (poor drivers) only has 2.

    ...wasting a little more than .002872% of my time...
  • ksomanksoman Posts: 593
    differing sources of information.

    ksso #2.01beta
  • jjacurajjacura Posts: 808
    KSSO, sorry, I researched your Greenspan numbers and they correct to 0.002572 less productivity because you didn't account for those of us LPS owners that are retired and don't have to be accountable for our time, unless you adjust for important time useage on the golf course or on a racquetball court....and maybe that would skew those numbers by another 4.065%. :)

    PS I for one get along with "Grinning BMW owners"! My son took us to Lake Geneva in his M3 Saturday and :shades: grinned all the way.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I normally do too, unless one blows by me at 140mph in the right lane. I'm grinning, but only after I see the bimmer nailed by the cop.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    "but only after I see the bimmer nailed by the cop. "

    Change to Lexus and we're on the right track. :)
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    With the "lowly" 2006 Passat getting the 280hp/265 torque 3.6L engine, is it likely that the 2006 Audi A6 will get this engine as well?
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Unfortunately, no. The new VW's engine is transversely-mounted. The Audis use longitudinally-mounted engines. That means no VR6 for Audi.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    That's too bad. It's weird how carmakers are making mainstream sedans that are significantly outpowering its luxury cars that cost 1.5 times more.

    For example, Passat 3.6 > A6 3.2, and Avalon > GS300.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    BMW announced the price of the 2006 550i.

    2006 550i MSRP: $58,095
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Or how about Corvette > Cadillac XLR
  • gohorns1gohorns1 Posts: 53
    Does that include the tires, steering wheel and breaks? Oh yeah, I forgot, those are included in one of the many packages BMW offers.
  • ksomanksoman Posts: 593
    but atleast it's a delicious engine... atleast as tested in the 750i (NOT Li)
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,343
    I would assume the 3.2 will be tuned and tweaked to increase its output.

    I hope and pray for this engine to be given the Audi bi-turbo treatment -- but I can't imagine Audi doing this, for if this engine were blown (even mildly) it would surely get to or exceed 300HP and a like amount of torque. The torque, typical of turbos, would be at full boil about 2,000 RPM (with imperceptible lag) and all other things being the same would be quicker than the V8.

    Maybe Audi will do this -- my assumption is they won't since having the V8 as the more costly "middle" performer could hurt V8 sales.

    The grand scheme appears to be to have the engines and cars perform on a scale that basically is represented by the price (like BMW). I would imagine a 3.2T would be quicker than the 4.2 -- I would think that would not be desirable.

    I've been wrong before.

    I hope I am this time, too.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Er, how is that typical of turbos? Audi bi-turbos yes, but.. say Subie or Volvo turbos? With their smaller engines, there's literally no power until past 3500 rpm or so.

    Isnt that exactly what Audi did last time with the A6 2.7T? Especially the S-line version, which was definitely faster than the 4.2.
  • frisconickfrisconick Posts: 1,275
    Good point, that is strange. Maybe they are relying on the badge to sell the upscale sedans, while people can by these mainstream sedans and claim "I have more power than the badge!"

    It is a very interesting marketing idea, and maybe not a good one. For example, I think the Avalon is going to hurt Lexus sales.
  • ksomanksoman Posts: 593
    it depends on what the demographics end up to be. I may not have the right statistical information, but my gut feel and my eyes tell me that lexus, despite it's exemplary quality is becoming more and more a brand for people further up the age ladder.. aka buick.. well ok, sorry didn't mean to sound insulting.

    Avalon has been a caprice & crown victoria competitor in the distant past (i don't know about recent) and i think the audience was largely skewed towards seniors. IF it is still the same, then there's an overlap coming about between avalon's and lexus, so a more powerful toyota than a lexus is going to be bad.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    To a certain extent, you're right. There are exceptions though. The people who actually bought the IS300 were younger than buyers of BMW 3 series or Audi A4. Lexus wants to get more sales by trying to appeal to people 30-45 for the new IS250\350, vs. 29 for the IS300.

    The Avalon was a Buick and Crown Vic competitor in the past, but the new one isnt, especially the "sport version". Check out C&D or Edmunds comparison tests. The Avalon destroyed the Buick LaCrosse, and even beat the Nissan Maxima and Chrysler 300. Buick definitely wont have anything like the upcoming 500hp Lexus supercar.

    That said, I think the Avalon may step on the ES330's toes a little, at least for people who are willing to live without the Lexus ownership experience. Toyota dealers arent exactly fun places to be. The 2007 ES should move the car further upmarket from the Avalon.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,343
    Sorry. I should have said the less general and been more specific -- Audi turbos (although the Volvos seem to get their torque early from their turbos, too.)

    The A6 2.7T, way before S-Line could publish a 0-60 time of 6.0 seconds, the V8, 6.7. The S-Line only made things worse in that regard.

    However, the A6 4.2 had some visual queues that the 2.7T lacked (it looked more muscular.)

    The new A6 3.2 and 4.2 if debadged could not be told apart from each other, however. If the 3.2T came out and nothing was done to differentiate the V8, why would anyone even bother with the V8 if they wanted performance?

    Make mine an A6 3.2T S-Line, please.

    I enjoyed my two Audi A6 4.2's -- but it did not go unnoticed that the 2.7T was the quicker of the two. But, I could tell the two apart.

    Not so with the new A6's -- they all have the same "look" regardless of what is under the hood.
  • frisconickfrisconick Posts: 1,275
    The new Avalon is a major improvement. It no longer looks like a big Camry, and with 280hp can really fly for a big car. I really think that I prefer it over the Lexus ES.
  • warthogwarthog Posts: 216
    And why are we talking about the Avalon in the LPS? I thought we just went through a painful purge of the non-Big 6. Yoohoo, Pat?
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    With Volvo it depends on the engine. The old 2.3L HPT "T5" motor had basically nothing to give until almost 4,000rpm. It had wonderful passing power on the highway though. The 2.5T engine on the other hand has great low end grunt, but starts to run out of steam when the T5 was just kicking in.
  • kfhmailkfhmail Posts: 199
    Does anyone else think it is a "little odd" that the price of the NAV systems have not started getting less expensive?

    It appears that $2,000 is the "going" price for a NAV system when the NAV is available as an option.

    NAV is a $2,000 option on the M35/45 and the GS300.

    The price of the NAV system was also $2,000 for the 2003 Infiniti G35 and the 2004 Acura TL.

    With the way the prices for electronics keep appears...the price for the NAV systems should be dropping.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 4,056
    I'm sure the cost (to the OEM) is dropping. It's the price that's stuck, because none of the OEM's have decided (yet) to cut into their margin by choosing to compete on the price of NAV. Since the invoice prices of the cars themselves have become common knowledge, options are one way to boost OEM margins and provide the cash that comes back to the dealers in various incentives.

    The house always wins.

    Well, not always -- GM and Ford aren't exactly setting the world on fire, in terms of profitibility..
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    GS430: 280 ps = 276 hp
    GS350: 315 ps = 311 hp

    Of course, the GS430 has more torque, but it's interesting that the GS350 has more hp nontheless.

    Note: 1 pferdestarke (ps) = 0.9863201 horsepower
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,343
    Nav systems are the "buzz" option. Demand (actual sales, i.e.) thus far, however, is still somewhat below what it would take to cause a reduction in price. Part of the reason for the low demand -- if you can place much credence in ONE dealership as a representative of the larger population of them -- is the low supply in inventory. You can't sell what you don't have and most people won't consider navi a deal breaker. Indeed, for some, "navi is nice but if two otherwise identical cars are in inventory, I'll take the non-navi version." Navi is still pretty new, despite the fact that I got my first one in 2000 in an Audi A6.

    At the local Infiniti dealership, there are lots of M's with the Journey package (most of them are M35's). There are a few M45's with the technology package, but even if the number is 2/3'ds of the M45's, there ARE fewer 45's than 35's and so on. If you want to get a car with the navi, it is (at this time) pretty clear that you are probably not too concerned if the option is $1,000 or $2,000.

    At the Audi dealership, there are a few A4's and A6's IN inventory with navi (all the A8's have them, of course.) My salesperson says that most of the new cars he sells (the dealership averages about 50 per month) do NOT have this feature (which makes sense since most of the cars are sold from inventory and at this point in time "parktronic" is much more likely to be in demand than navi.)

    To a certain extent this is a supply and demand issue and to a lesser extent, I'm assuming, this is a cost issue.

    "What once were vices are now virtues" as the song goes. When navi is considered as "pedestrian" as a CD changer or heated seats or ABS/stability control, the price will plummet.

    Who knows they may soon GIVE the navi away -- essentially -- in order to get you to pay for a "real time" subscription (like sat radio, On*star, etc.)

    Navi and voice command are two toys that -- have become "necessities" as far as I'm concerned -- and pushbutton start, despite the fact that I bought it -- isn't worth $750. If voice command is $350, then pushbutton start/stop is worth about $250.
  • bartalk3bartalk3 Posts: 692
    When did Consumer Reports have an article on the GS? The current GS? I haven't seen it.
  • docnukemdocnukem Posts: 485
    I don't know about push-button start. When your hands (or pockets) are full and getting your keys out of your pockets is difficult, it sure is nice to not have to worry about it. Granted, you still have to push the button on the door to unlock it, but you don't ever have to dig for keys. It may be an even bigger benefit for women who keep their keys in their purses and can avoid digging through those labyrinths.

    I am slowly getting used to voice commands, but I might rate it as equivalent to the push-button start and key-fob that you never need to handle. I think its best use is for the phone book.
  • davidc1davidc1 Posts: 168
    That's probably due to unwritten rule among Japanese manufacturers to limit PS on domestic models to 280 (even if the actual number is higher). I understand that they recently abandoned the practice.
  • msu79gt82msu79gt82 Posts: 541
    Does anyone else think it is a "little odd" that the price of the NAV systems have not started getting less expensive?

    I think perhaps in a way they have. Navi was a $2200 option in my old '01 MDX; now its a much better and improved system for "only" $2000.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I think a large part of it may have to with the fact that Nav systems have only been good across the board for a few years. Acura beat Lexus to the Nav punch in the US by offering a system in the RL all the way back in '96, but it covered just a few major cities and was not very useful.

    In many cases, opting for a Nav system meant you used to have to give up features as well. In a '98-'00 Lexus, getting Nav meant you could not get the Nackamichi stereo. In the old 3 series, you got stuck with a lousy tape deck.
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