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Luxury Performance Sedans



  • I don't rely on them at all. I am so skeptical indeed, that I [almost] literally think if CR likes it, I will avoid it.

    Now, while that's almost true I cannot avoid seeing the ratings since they are touted so much.

    Now we parse these things so much, "Initial Quality" -- is this different than "Quality after the first payment is made?"

    It all depends on what the definition of "is" is sometimes.

    And is quality the same a reliability and is reliability the same as durability?

    The answer is "it all depends."

    I have no idea, back to my temp Trailblazer, if the thing is reliable or durable. It "seems" at 9,000 miles to be of high quality which I would imagine would perhaps translate into some kind of durability rating. Too soon perhaps to make the connection that it will be reliable for certain.

    I suspect it would be possible to have a durable and reliable vehicle that you felt was of very low quality.

    My dad's 1966 Plymouth Valiant was durable and we beat the tar out of it -- it was, however, of the lowest quality I could imagine. But it took a lickin' and kept on tickin'

    Today, I am wearing a somewhat inexpensive watch, a Tissot -- it looks attractive it probably will outlive me but I have a couple other watches that I believe to be of much higher quality (and they cost a lot more too), but I have no reason to believe they will be of any higher durability or reliability, in fact I have two automatic watches that are probably considerably more fragile.

    Does this mechanical/quality/durability/reliability kind of view translate to cars? Is a Maybach (sp?) of higher quality or durability or reliability? Or is it simply of the highest quality but unreliable like so many here seem to attribute to Mercedes?

    The fit and finish especially of the interior of my Audi is of equal to or higher than the best quality around (and this even if it is just an opinion is not limited to my personal opinion), but even if the Audi lovers and haters all agreed with that, well does that make it of greater quality, reliability or durability or perhaps just a style that is "it" at the moment?

    I take it as a given that we all want higher durability and reliability and I assume we all want higher quality and higher performance and greater safety and even better efficiency.

    Yet it often boils down to that old saw, you can have -- fill in the blank -- "very fast or high value or high quality" but you may pick only two.

    Seems there is some correlation with cars, here. :surprise:
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Posts: 3,101
    One of my favorite anecdotes was that regarding "Initial Quality Survey" (and I don't remember if it was CR or JDP, JDP, I think...) was that the Hummer had owners complain of many "defects." One of the "defects" reported: Poor MPG!!!
    Next survey: "IQ of People who Purchase a Hummer!" No offense, Hummer owners. Please don't run over my TL!

    The Mini was cited for "small cupholders." Defect is in the eye of the beholder...

    Mark: OT. I've got an Automatic Seiko chronograph, circa 1978. Still fully functional including day/date and chronograph functions. It still holds a charge longer than my newer Tag Heuer. Cars and watches, favorite toys for boys!

    '13 Jaguar XF, possibly my favorite of all the cars I've owned. But, my '09 Jag XK was a beauty, as was my '05 Acura TL, '88 Acura Integra, '84 Mitsubishi Mirage Turbo & '78 VW Scirocco (my first!). And, of course, the '92 Nissan Sentra SE-R and '95 Saab 900s I bought for the ex... Ok, I like a lot of the cars in my life.

  • AUBURN HILLS, Mich. – Continuing the trend of sales increases from 2005, Audi of America, Inc. posted a 19.8% increase in sales for January 2006. Audi sold a total of 6,084 vehicles versus 5,077 vehicle sales in January 2005. Leading the sales gain for the month was the A6 with a total of 1,617, a 33.4% increase over last year. The A8 also had impressive gains with sales of 516 vehicles, a 44.5% increase over January 2005.

    “We are striving to make 2006 an all-time record-sales year for Audi of America,” said Johan de Nysschen, Executive Vice President of Audi of America. “With the addition of the A3 3.2 quattro premium compact and the upcoming Audi Q7 performance SUV, 2006 looks to be a very bright year for Audi.”

    OK, here is a question for the real fact finders here -- is there any available data that would tell the MODEL Name/number of the 5, E, GS, M & STS.

    My dealer, as I have noted says "40%+ of the 5's are either 525xi's or 530xi's" -- I would think our climate has something to do with this, wonder what the overall numbers are, that is?

    The M's sold here at the ONE Cincinnati dealer are "mostly" M35X's -- whatever that means.

    And, "all I see" are Mercedes 4Matics here in River City.

    Just wondering if such data points are "out there" for our consumption?


    P.S. What happened to the RL?
  • bjbird2bjbird2 Posts: 647
    The JD Powers survey I posted was not for initial quality, it was long term dependability, in which they bench-marked model year 2002 cars and trucks over a 3 year period.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    Lexus breaks it down between engine sizes, but not AWD/RWD.

    BMW is the best in this regard. They have breakdowns of engine sizes, AWD/RWD, and sedan/wagon.

    There is no question that the 5's sales increases came from the addition of AWD models and the M5.

    None of the others provide breakdowns.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Indeed not a bright month for Acura. What happened to the E class? The M was only around 100 cars off of the GS. Anyone think Infiniti will beat Lexus in 2K6?
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251
    No big concern for Acura. Acura's "Bread & Butter" cars are both the TL and TSX. Both models increased in sales versus last year. The TSX increased by over 40 percent. Based on those figures Acura is basking in the sun!
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251
    Germans are taking over the LPS segment. Audi sales increased over 19 percent and BMW LPS sales increased almost 23 percent!

    It appears buyers are willing to spend a premium price for European performance and handling. And I dont blame them.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    Apparently so!
    Sales of the E60 are up a whopping 42.8% since January 2005.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251
    What distinguishes the BMW E60 from the cars in the Japanese LPS segment is that aging makes the E60 more attractive. BMWs are similar to aged vintage wine while the Japanese alternatives are like aged Coca Cola past the expiry date. I can predict with 20/20 vision that the Lexus GS lose its sales momentum real soon.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Good posts. The German cars are hititng Lexus hard in the midrange? hey, dewey, what if the new Toyota Camry is nice enough to take away Lexus sales as well. Toyota still wins, but I wonder if they could somehow end up competing against themselves? Hmmm . . . what am I thinking here?
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I seriously doubt GS shoppers would ever consider a Camry. You can buy two V6 Camrys for the price of a GS430. The new ES350 however...
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Yes, I agree, and find it interesting that there is such an apparent overlap. Or is this just my imagination? I suppose an "overlap" would make more sense than a "gap", in order to not lose potential buyers.
  • Wow!

    BMW's are similar to aged vintage wine while . . . .?!?

    I consider myself a German car fan -- but where did this come from?

    Or perhaps a better question is what does this mean?

    I may (probably do) agree that the Japanese cars appear to have "lost some steam" of late. But I find it difficult to ever count them down even if SOME of the Japanese mfgs seem to be producing somnambulant vehicles.

    For the Lexus cars that have isolated and insulated and removed all the sharpness from the driving experience we are offered up some impressive Infintis who have threatened "to make the Germans irrelevant."

    The Germans may be on a roll of late -- but the Japanese are hardly "flat cola."

    Perhaps, again, the Japanese have turned around another car country by being sooo competitive.

    Thank you Japanese mfgs, the German mfgs are grateful.

  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    Thank you for your incredible work ethic and passion for making reliable vehicles.

    For thanks to you, BMW which was producing vehicles with questionable reliability and integrity, was forced to stand up and take notice.
    Mediocrity couldn't cut it any more.

    Now BMW has finally cleaned up its act and CR has taken notice by approving the 5 series as a reliable vehicle once again.

    Let's see if Mercedes Benz can follow.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    how sarcasm benefits this conversation...

    Could we give up the antagonism that has recently developed and get back to the very interesting and useful conversations we've had over the last many months?
  • docnukemdocnukem Posts: 485
    What distinguishes the BMW E60 from the cars in the Japanese LPS segment is that aging makes the E60 more attractive.

    I thought that only applied to Buicks... :)

    I had to read that twice because the first time made me think you were saying that BMW=Blue-hair Motor Works.

    I am aging, but I must have bucked the trend by going with Infiniti. ;)

    (BTW, I do know what you were saying, it just sounded funny the first time).
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251
    The Lexus GS I can understand, despite the fact that it is not my kind of car. The Lexus ES I will never understand especially now with the upcoming Camry hybrid and XLE and ofcourse the Toyota Avalon.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251
    Mark and Docnukem,

    It was just a tongue in cheek post!

    In fact the Japanese are invading my garage. My wife will be replacing her vintage 83 MB300D with a hybrid Toyota Camry( We were the first ones to place a deposit for the hybrid Camry at the Downtown Toyota dealership in Toronto)

    And when I replace my BMW 3 series I will definitely be open minded about the other Japanese marques including Infiniti(my only pre-requisite is a third pedal). Who knows maybe a next generation Infiniti G or a AWD Acura TL? I find it a shame that the Infiniti M and the Acura RL do not have sticks.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251
    Pastor Sells Town's Oldest Church To Buy New BMW


    The heading and link above proves that it is not mere marketing spin when BMWs are referred to as passionate vehicles. Even a member of the clergy could not resist the powerful temptations of driving a BMW. What more proof do you need then that?
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    And when I replace my BMW 3 series I will definitely be open minded about the other Japanese marques ...

    You crack me up . . . when the time really comes for you to replace your 3 series, there will only be one correct prescription for you . . .

    3 letters. :D
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Stranger still is that it appears that the GS will be the last Lexus car to get upgraded to the 3.5L V6. The ES350 hits in Chicago, and Lexus is already running ads for the RX350 (now with 270hp, what's the reason for the RX400 again?)

    That means that the ES350 will not only undercut the GS in price, but it will have 25 more horses, at least for the time being.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    There must be some changes in the wind with regards to the way they will tier these models, because that doesn't make a whole lot of sense on the surface. Maybe there is something in store for the GS?
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    The GS will get the 3.5L V6 and 4.6L V8, I'm just not sure when. My guess (since there is no official word on the GS350 and 460 yet) is that they will add the GS450h for '07, and replace the standard engines for '08. If I were Lexus, I would also replace the IS250s for IS300s. The 250 isnt any faster than the 4-cyl Acura TSX.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    If I were Lexus, I would also replace the IS250s for IS300s. The 250 isnt any faster than the 4-cyl Acura TSX.

    But then an IS300 would be too close to the 350. If anything, the 250 makes the 350 stand out, just from the difference between the two. And there are still those that won't cross the line and run to Acura. I don't know . . . I still think the 250 makes sense, but perhaps could use some other enhancements.
  • With the apparent forward and upward momentum of several of the cars in the LPS segment (speaking of units sold in January, 2006) what happened at Acura?

    Price? Performance? Subventing (or lack thereof) of leases? Bad rep in the marketplace?

    And what has happened in general to prices?

    When I started down my current path, I had actually decided the Infiniti M was the way to go since it was substantially less money (than Audi which at the time I was trying hard to justify -- even with a willingness to pay a little more, the Audi was waaaay overpriced compared to a similar M and even a similarly priced BMW 530i.)

    Just last week on a test drive of an M35X with a friend and co-worker, the Infiniti M35X equipped with Journey and Technology packages was over $100 more per month on a lease than the one I was quoted (which was identical) a year earlier. Interest rates? Demand so good they got cocky?

    She ended up with a Cadillac CTS -- and yes I know they are not exactly the same class of car, but factoring in price the Inifiniti had increased in cost sharply over the past 10 months.

    Did this kind of thing happen to Acura?

    And in the prior posting of Jan '06 sales, the STS's numbers were missing. Are they now known?

    And, the strength of the 5 series sales -- er, is THAT due to the renewal or continuation of BMW's aggressive subventing?

    Heck, even Audi (US) is giddy with their year over year results.

    What up Acura? :confuse:
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    Sounds like he should start the Church Of The New Materialist.

    Wonder which model caused the transfiguration?

    Could be the miraculous new 5 series.

    Chris Bangle has indeed caused the tired looking 5 series to be reborn.

    Sales up a scorching 42.8% since January 2005 in the USA.

    Could be the new Bangle 7 series.

    Up a respectable 23.3%.

    Or the Bangle 3 series-up 21.5%.

    Temptation may be a sin, but the Bangle stable is indeed hard to resist.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251
    Temptation may be a sin, but the Bangle stable is indeed hard to resist.

    I dont know about that. Temptations are immediate and instinctual. While Banglism is more of an acquired taste that takes time to learn.

    Have you noticed how long it took for mainstream opinion to favor Bangle styling. Unfortunately most people are slow learners and as hard as this may be to believe there are still a small minority out there who find Bangle curves ugly. I cant imagine why?
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    hpowders - You won't have to buy only the BMW to get the Bangled look . . . the way it's revealing itself even on the new MB's and Lexus. It's out there . . . maybe not as pronouncedand . . . but it's out there . . . the styling influence is recognizable, and Chris gets the credit, no doubt. Amazing turnaround, IMO.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    As far as I know, Acura RL pricing has gone down, not up. The last time I was at the Acura dealership, there was no less than 12 of them just sitting around on the lot. I just dont think the demand is there. Its an awful lot of money for a TL with AWD.
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