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Luxury Performance Sedans



  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 64,724
    I think you can also attribute the smaller gain in sales for the 3-series to that fact that the coupes and convertibles are still the previous generation... Once they come out with the E90 version of the coupes, sales should really take off..


    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • aas5aas5 Posts: 50
    wait till he gets an infiniti after his lease is up, we'll be hearing all about carlos ghosn and how infiniti will be taking over the world.

    I for one don't like the new bmw designs and think the previous ones looked elegant and classy while also looking sporty, especially 540 and M. The new designs are not bad but anyone claiming that they are the best the world currently has to offer is seriously mistaken.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Hmm. According to the website, CR's new top rated family car is the Passat 3.6, just edging out their former favorite the Accord Hybrid.

    They rank the TL at the top of the "upscale sedan" entry lux category.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251
    It appears CR loves Front Wheel Drive Performance Vehicles.

    That in itself tells me a lot about the credibility of CR opinion.
  • . . .I know some folks swear by CR, and I DON'T swear at them. But I call them a "data point" -- a data point that I would find hard pressed could move me to or not to.

    They would have to write something so "over the top" (which would probably not have the desired effect) to make me give their comments much merit.

    To make the point:

    I wouldn't seek CR's advice on my choice of a date or mate; and, while I hardly think of a car as a date or mate, it still seems (despite or because of the tens of thousands -- or more -- posts here) that our car purchases are more akin to our choice of friends and spouses than our selection of washing machines, microwaves and room air-conditioners.

    Buying cars, driving cars, owning cars, talking about cars, almost everything under the sun about cars is emotional, opinionated, passionate.

    A circle with a half-moon in it or a dot in the middle is, IMHO, virtually useless data.

    It reminds me of the "joke or story or parable or what ever" where the guy says "where am I?" And the reply is, "you are at such and such latitude and longitude at this altitude above sea level."

    Clearly the person knew the precise location on the planet earth in answer to the question -- but the information was practically meaningless (PM).

    To me: CR = PM.

    Of course that is just my opinion, which, too is PM. :shades:
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    In the latest issue of CR, the TL is listed as the number one family car over $25k ( although not tested this month) with the Passat 3.6, number two.

    There is an obvious discrepancy between the magazine and the website.

    In their latest test, the VW Passat 3.6 finished number one and the rest were: the Ford Fusion/Mercury Milan, Hyundai Sonata, Chevy Impala and Dodge Charger. (from second to last place).

    Even though the Passat finished first, some disturbing comments:
    "The interior and ride comfort have slightly diminished."
    "The V6 can be hesitant at takeoff from a rolling stop and sometimes bangs between gears."
    "It rides comfortably but isn't as isolated from the road as its predecessor."
    "The brake pedal felt spongy."
    "Some dash trim does not fit well."
    And so on.
    Not exactly an inspiring review.
    Sounds like a winner by default.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    Yup! No excuse on that one. Wrote it too early, I guess!
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    Whoa! I don't believe I ever said that the Bangle 5 is the best design in the world.

    There are many, many cars I lust for that top the 5's design by far, IMO-starting with the 911 Carrera 4 2-door coupe.
    I get palpitations thinking about that one!

    I am limiting myself to a certain price category when I comment on the 5.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251
    How about JD Power's approach? How credible is their approach? Depending on JD Powers for car buying info is like depending on 60 Minutes for objective Audi information(if you were not beyond the age of infancy in the 1980s then you may not know what I am talking about)

    Below are paragraphs of the article I linked below:

    1)A few years ago Hummer and MINI protested because their vehicles received low IQS scores because of poor fuel economy and awful cupholders, respectively. These weren't things as the dealer could fix, as the were endemic to the vehicles' designs. But because consumsers reported them as problems, J.D. Power counted them.

    Some consumers would like all sources of dissatisfaction to count. Others would only want to know the rate of repairable issues. With J.D. Power's scores there's no way to separate the two. Ultimately, it's not clear what is being measured.

    2)Like Consumer Reports', J.D. Power on its consumer site rates models on a five-point scale. (Model-level absolute numbers with a few exceptions are reserved for the manufacturers.) Their one to five dot ratings appear simple to understand, but they conceal far more than the convey. If one vehicle has a three dot rating, and another has a five dot rating, what will this really mean in terms of the number of trips to the shop and the number of days spent there?.

    3)The VDS used to survey consumers after five years of ownership, but a couple of years ago this was changed to three years to better suit manufacturers' needs. Once a vehicle design is more than three years old manufacturers rarely update it, so reliability information on older vehicles is of no use to them.

    4)One issue with this approach is that people often associate the IQS numbers with reliability, when it is more a measure of assembly quality.

    JD Powers Weaknesses
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    I joined True Delta. Waiting for them to include the 5 series in their reliability studies.
  • . . .at age 54 (and my wife is, shall we say somewhat "younger") we have had ONE unreliable car (we have had cars we didn't like as well as others, etc, but the thread here seems to be "buying based on reliability or durability ratings from CR or JDP" or something akin to that.)

    That unreliable car: A new 1976 Plymouth Volare 318 V8 with at the time every possible do dad Chryco had on their option sheet.

    The car rusted so completely, had every power operated gizmo on it go south and on and on, it is hard to characterize how bad it was.

    My wife's GTO (when I met her -- and it had the white ball Hurst Shifter) was a gas hog and had weak brakes, but the car was a BLAST.

    The Chevette we had in college wasn't much fun but it ran fine, and so on.

    I have, consequently, little "fear" of any car in that regard.

    I buy the car that seems the "most rewarding" to drive.

    What I am concluding is that most rewarding must also include reliability scores that probably have as much validity and influence as my personal experiences with cars should to you.

    The IQ scores noted above (cupholders that I don't like are counted? -- what if I don't like the color?) are about as useful [to me] as knowing my latitude and longitude and feet above sea level.

    We're buying $50,000+ cars here -- and while we certainly don't want them to fall apart (like the Volare), cars are substantially more reliable now than they ever have been (it's in all the papers.) :surprise:

    I want to know what "you guys" think about the content, performance, looks, fun factors, and stories YOU tell -- far more than I give a "tinker's cuss" about JD Power or CR.

    Maybe I need to read some of that stuff more.

    Nahhh, it was sumptin' I et. :shades:
  • bartalk3bartalk3 Posts: 692

    You mentioned your one unreliable car--the rust bucket '76 Plymouth Volare. They were the worst! Its twin was the Dodge Aspen, also the world's worst rust bucket. Now it seems Dodge is ressurecting the name Aspen to stick on some car! Now I ask you, why would any auto exec in his right mind want to remind buyers of that horrible Dodge Aspen of yore? Do these guys have a clue? No wonder the U.S. industry is going under. It just completely baffles me. And these guys are paid millions for these kinds of mistakes!
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Yeah I read that on the web road test of the car. Some of the mags have said similar things about the interior quality of the A4 going down when compared to the previous A4 2.8. VW has to try and make money somewhere.
  • Everyones trying to make some money including Lexus trying to sell an Avalon that parks itself :P
  • Good day people. Im interested in buying the GS 300 but not sure its worth to spring for the extra 3K for AWD.

    What id like to know is whoever owns a 300 rwd can you kindly let me know how it handles in the snow??

    Is it passable in snow?? Does it get stuck or is it ok.

  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Hi - a better place to ask that would be in the dedicated Lexus GS 300/GS 430 - 2006+ discussion. Check it out.
  • However, NOTE WELL: China's stats.

    Source Audi AG:

    Audi sold more than 69,400 vehicles worldwide in January 2006, an increase of 26.7 percent on the same month of last year (January 2005: 54,825).

    “We are delighted with this positive start to 2006. This result is an ideal basis for the global launch of the new Audi Q7, beginning on 10 March in Central Europe,” stated Ralph Weyler, Member of the AUDI AG Board of Management for Marketing and Sales. “We will introduce a whole range of attractive new models this year, putting us on course for the eleventh record year in succession.”

    Around 51,100 vehicles were handed over to their new owners in Europe (up 17.0 percent, 43,699)*. Of this total, 16,300 were sold in Germany (up 11.2 percent, 14,670). The European markets with the highest growth rates were France with 3,600 (up 30.3 percent, 2,736), Great Britain with 7,800 (up 13.4 percent, 6,905) and Italy with 4,800 vehicles sold (up 20.2 percent, 3,974). Sales in North America rose by 21.5 percent to 6,900 vehicles (5,659). 6,084 of these vehicles were handed over to customers in the USA (up 19.8 percent, 5,077). Business in Asia/Pacific was also highly successful, with 8,600 vehicles sold in this region (up 153.6 percent, 3,380). Of this total, 6,300 were purchased by customers in China (up 238.4 percent, 1,848).

    *) Growth and last year’s figures in brackets
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Interesting, because VW is losing sales in China after being the leader for years.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251
    Audi sales have been booming for years while VW sales have been declining for years. This is a "Tale of Two Marques" despite the fact that both are owned by the same company.
  • . . .BMW and Mercedes are "up too" aren't they?

    Acura is down -- or is it?

    Lexus is ?

    Infiniti is ?

    By these ?'s I mean in ref to the Audi news article, to ask the "worldwide" sales changes.

    I am 99% certain BMW like Audi is up (more or less is not the point, "up" is the point.)

    I thought the same was true of Mercedes (worldwide.)

    Man o man, a new Passat is $299 a month no drive off costs and VW's is in the dumper?

    Perhaps VW has become irrelevant -- despite Infiniti's fans declaration that Inifiti will make Audi, BMW and Mercedes irrelevant, it seems the Europeans (or at least the Germans) are on ein roll! :shades:

    Achtung Baby!
  • I don't think Acura is down. I just read that they were up, but I don't recall where. The RL has been a disappointment for sure, but I think Acura/Honda is still very profitable.
    It's funny how most of the conversations as far as the car companies go are either up or down depending on perspective from a lot of posters. Especially over in the "high end luxury marquee" thread where it is back and forth on who is selling the most blah,blahblah. I think the competition is clearly improving every ones personal favorite brand. I know I agree with Mark that Audi needs to improve on weight and balance issues. At the same time I'm going to pretty much like whatever they and Acura come out with due to the fact that they're products speak to me on an emotional,or more practical level.
    Yes I am biased. Lexus would have to knock my socks off with something in order for me to look they're way. Just how it is and at least I can admit it. :blush:
  • aflcaflc Posts: 8
    It looks like car owners in Germany seem to have a slightly different veiwpoint about their cars than those in the US.

    I think that if more people gave Audi a little test drive they would see what others in the rest of the world seem to really enjoy.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251
    These future A4 pics and design drawings are from the German car magazine called Autobild. A torquey manual TDI Avant version will definitely get my attention. I read that at least in Canada Audi intends to introduce diesels. I am looking forward to them.


  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Oh geez... And I thought the decision to get an A3 was going to be easy. NOT! If this is the car that hits the streets, then I'm afraid that the A3 just ain't gonna happen. ;-)

    Best Regards,
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Dewey -
    Looks like you guys in Canada can get pretty lucky once in a while! WOW!
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251
    Love the A3. BUT IMHO no 2.0 Quattros and no manual 3.2's are deal breakers

    At least that is my excuse for waiting on patiently for the new A4. :)
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251
    The beauty of a diesel is that you can buy a fuel efficient vehicle that is actually a sport sedan. Versus buying the hybrid versions of fuel efficiency that are anti-sport sedans.
  • This will definitly be added to MY waiting list along with the GS 350 and the new generation of Acura TL.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    if Audi doesn't get its quality control act together.
  • With Len Hunt as my witness, the quality of both my wife's X3 and my A6 (and the allroad that preceded it) have been non-issues.

    Even with the brake rotor problems of the previous A6's and the issues with the A8, these cars have never been so bad in this regard as to slow down sales (to us.)

    The fact that Audi and BMW seem to be on yet another roll, is testimony that for the time being QC isn't much of an issue these days.

    I would steer anyone to either BMW or Audi based on what I have seen over the past few years -- and reportedly it just keeps getting better all the time.

    I'd bet both Audi and BMW are going to continue to succeed in the marketplace.

    Audis recent GLOBAL sales are in some part due to the quality of the cars -- as are, I would assume, BMW's.

    The Q7, gas hoginess and all, will probably do wonders for Audi. The new X5 will certainly be a boost to BMW as will the upgraded X3 and the "improvements" in the 5 series, too.

    It is a great time in German car history, from my warped point of view.

    I hope the Germans send thank you letters to Infiniti, Lexus and even Acura for their small part in aiding and abetting the German's comeback.

    If the American car companies don't thank the Japanese, they need to rewind the past 20 years and see that without the Japanese they would be dead.

    Maybe the Japanese will need to thank the Germans in a couple of years for making their cars more dynamic and fun to drive all the while retaining their reliability.

    Can't wait for 2010!
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