Luxury Performance Sedans

mtjohn

I love driving my '01 530ia. I never feel that I am being "driven" in it. There have been many times that I wish I had a manual transmission when pushing the car hard through the great coastal roads of Northern California, but my Steptronic definitely helps bridge the numb-gap a little from AT to manual. It allows for decent compression in and out of turns and I rarely move out of 2nd & 3rd gear through most of the fun bits. Reality always sets in: I am a father of 3 sm. kids and commute to San Francisco. My job requires that I am out and about in the Bay Area traffic daily. Letting the clutch pedal out 3,000 times a day in traffic does not sound like much fun. This whole board is about Luxury/Performance which, I agree, is oxymoronic. But c'mon Riez--a heavy 5 series sedan like the 540i6 you used to run is itself something of a trade off. Your could get more pure performance out of many other smaller, lighter cars for the same money. Heck, I'm leaning toward a S2000 as a third vehicle. You mentioned 50/50 weight distribution--with no mention of hp or torque requirements--but the 540 is the least balanced of the 5 series lineup.
Bottom line: I definitely "drive" my 530 and love it.

designman

mtjohn… good post.

Listening to the Lexus guys, they don't care for a ride that is too firm. They like to be insulated and isolated from the road. Understandable… this is the luxury aspect. The LS fans are VERY enthusiastic about their cars so you have to tip your hat to luxury.

Listening to the sport drivers who are stuck with sedans, they need their sport packages, RWD and manual transmissions. Very easy to comprehend… sport driving is invigorating and fun, there are no two ways about it.

It's hard to find equanimity and adequately define the luxury performance sedan in light of these two camps. But this is where BMW has been at its best, bringing the qualities of sport into the world of utility and luxury, satisfying preferences on both sides of the fence.

But to me, BMW has been at its VERY best at the dead center of the scale. The E39 530 with automatic transmission and without sport package is the most perfect, most balanced combination of performance and luxury. This is why CR called it the best sedan they ever tested. It has enough firmness, stability and power to be road confident; enough luxury to sooth; straightforward, well-dressed in its appearance; silky-smooth automatic transmission. Certainly the E60 530 continues this with regard to performance even though its other aspects are in question—reckless style, frivolous engineering, electronic excess.

Have your preferences either way, but in this thread, balance is the sweet spot and BMW has had the recipe for years. They are less about sports cars and more about road savvy sedans. Besides, I don't like the three-pedal 530. The stick is tentative, loose, the clutch pedal soft. The Audi S4 manual is better IMO, closer to a sports car.

The BMW sport package is definitely for the driver. I love it when driving but hate it when I'm a passenger. A colleague of mine has an 01 540 with sport package. When I'm his co-pilot I do NOT find the ride to be comfortable.

Bottom line for me: the BMW 5 with automatic, without sport package has better manners as a family/client limo. The sport configuration is too edgy for all-around sedan use. If I spent most of my time in it by myself, I might go with the sport setup. But then again, this is what sports cars are for. Better to keep them separate… better to appreciate the qualities of each.

"Cowboys like smoky ol' pool rooms and clear mountain skies."

-Willie Nelson

riez

designman... CR as the ultimate arbiter of driving pleasure? C&D. R&T. SCI. Automobile. Maybe MT or Autoweek. But CR?

When the car magazines test and rave about BMWs (esp. the E39 5 Series and E46 3 Series), it is almost always with Sport Pkg and manual transmission. Just read all the old reviews of the E39 540i6. Think I have over a dozen. All positive. A classic sedan. Practical and very, very fun to drive!

CR is the ultimate arbiter of toasters, cell phones, cameras, refrigerators, but driving pleasure isn't their primary concern.

Believe CR has now determined the Acura TL to be the "best car".

mtjohn... I'm the father of one teen and one pre-teen. I and they love driving! I have no trouble getting around Omaha, NE, with manual transmission. (Greater metro area has almost 500k people.)

designman

"CR as the ultimate arbiter of driving pleasure?"

Never said that. I'm the ultimate arbiter and used it because of its poignancy.

"CR is the ultimate arbiter of toasters, cell phones, cameras, refrigerators, but driving pleasure isn't their primary concern."

Can you be sure of this? Have you read other product reviews of these items that you can compare? More importantly, have you bought a toaster etc. recommended by CR that you can verify?

lexusguy

Sharon, if she likes the GS, there's no real reason to get a 2003. The GS was completely unchanged from '01 until it will ultimately be replaced next year. Go back another year or two, and get a maxed out GS430 with the Nav\Mark Levinson, and 17" wheel\tire package. That engine is silky smooth and has effortless power, and is at the same time ULEV certified, and can achieve about 22mpg. The GS300 makes do with only 220hp from Lexus' long in the tooth IL6, which isnt really enough power for a sedan that large with an automatic transmission, and its not a particularly fuel efficient engine either. MPG is about the same as the GS430, except it takes almost 3 full seconds longer to get to 60mph.

The C-class is ok, but 4 cylinders arent something the Germans do particularly well. I've never liked M-B's Supercharged 4, its power is uncompetivive, and its noisy. M-B stopped offering the SLK230 quite awhile ago because nobody liked the 4.

Riez, now the cars must be normally aspirated as well? That wasnt in your previous list of requirements, and is just plain silly. The turbocharged boxer 6 Porsche GT2 is about as pure as you can get, certainly much more so than any BMW 5 series with a stick

sharonf

Well, we didn't set out looking for a 2003...originally it was a 2004 ES that we were looking at....but decided against. The dealer just happened to have a 2003 there that he thought she might like. Today we went to a different dealer to see what the 2004's were going for...and to see the color choices. One of her top color choices would be the same color the other dealer has the 2003 in. Asking price for the 2004 is about $5K more than the 2003...but given that the 2005's will be coming soon...maybe we'd be able to get them down some?
I don't think she's much concerned with the engine power difference between the 300 and 430....she doesn't drive fast....nor does she do much driving other than around town.
Are they changing the body style for 2005?
I do think that as of this afternoon she is leaning towards Lexus now...rather than MB.
Thanks for all your input!

sharonf

Oh...forgot...she also doesn't want the navigation....and doesn't even own CD's....so that that should tell you how much she'd appreciate the sound system!

mtjohn

Riez:
I realize that Omaha has a decent population center, but the 9 county Bay Area, which is one big population center, has close to 7 million people. Some of its congested freeways trump even those of the Los Angeles area. The cool thing is that I get to go back over the Golden Gate Bridge every day to sparsely populated Marin Co. where some of the country's best driving roads are. There is one stretch near the peak of Mt. Tamalpais that overlooks the Pacific where dozens of car commercials have been filmed over the years. They wet the road down and it just has "the look". I live a few miles down the road from there. But make no mistake, it is easy to be stuck for over an hour in stop and go traffic through Silicon Valley or across the bay near Oakland.
The reason that I bought a 530ia SP is that it was the closest thing to a "drivers car" that I could get and still explain to my wife that it is simply a replacement vehicle for my aging Volvo 850. I had no idea what I was getting myself into. The 530 has changed my perception from car-as-appliance to something that moves my soul. Thus I spend a good couple of hours each week reading posts and chatting about it online. I am not sure where the balance lies between Lux/Perf. but I would like to say that I believe that as far as BMWs are concerned, the e39 01-03 530i is the best car they ever built all things considered. I also believe that it is the best example of what a "sport sedan" implies. (This subject has been aired out pretty well on the 5 Series Sedan board)Lux/Perf. is harder to quantify and fairly subjective.

lexusguy

Another question, does she plan on keeping this car as long as her previous Acura? I just heard today on Motorweek that M-B is recalling more than 600,000 cars to fix a defect in those "great" electronic brakes that Merc was so enthusiastic about. As I've said before, something like my cars ability to STOP is not something I'm going to trust to another pointless example of German "cause we can" gadgetry. I wouldnt recommend a M-B to someone who wants to keep one long out of warranty.

mtjohn

Riez:
I realize that Omaha has a decent population center, but the 9 county Bay Area, which is one big population center, has close to 7 million people. Some of its congested freeways trump even those of the Los Angeles area. The cool thing is that I get to go back over the Golden Gate Bridge every day to sparsely populated Marin Co. where some of the country's best driving roads are. There is one stretch near the peak of Mt. Tamalpais that overlooks the Pacific where dozens of car commercials have been filmed over the years. They wet the road down and it just has "the look". I live a few miles down the road from there. But make no mistake, it is easy to be stuck for over an hour in stop and go traffic through Silicon Valley or across the bay near Oakland.
The reason that I bought a 530ia SP is that it was the closest thing to a "drivers car" that I could get and still explain to my wife that it is simply a replacement vehicle for my aging Volvo 850. I had no idea what I was getting myself into. The 530 has changed my perception from car-as-appliance to something that moves my soul. Thus I spend a good couple of hours each week reading posts and chatting about it online. I am not sure where the balance lies between Lux/Perf. but I would like to say that I believe that as far as BMWs are concerned, the e39 01-03 530i is the best car they ever built all things considered. I also believe that it is the best example of what a "sport sedan" implies. (This subject has been aired out pretty well on the 5 Series Sedan board)Lux/Perf. is harder to quantify and fairly subjective.

karmikan

Interesting statement: "A true performance car needs manual transmission with clutch pedal". I think you'd agree that an F1 car encapsulates "true performance" and SMG was developed through F1.

I'd say that one of the prerequisites of "sport" in car terms is to give the driver the ability to select precisely the right gear at precisely the right time. The presence or absence of a clutch pedal is peripheral to that requirement. F1 developed SMG because it is orders of magnitude faster than than manual gear selection, hence greatly improved performance. If SMG improves Schumacher's ability to go fast, there's probably something to it.

Now let's see - a true calculator needs beads and rods, a true ship needs sails.......

merc1

Actually the SLK230 is still on sale until Sept, when the new SLK350 lands.

Thanks for not totally trashing the C-Class because it is on my list...lol. Seriously though the 2005 model has been much improved.

riez,

I respect the hell out of your viewpoints, but I think your type is dying breed. As you noted even BMW is going the SMG route for their next monster, the 2005 M5. Anyway, have you read that stats on this thing? Yikes. E55 poof! One question, have you driven the Audi TT V6 with the DSG gearbox?

M

jrock65

C sales have marked improved since the refresh. I think the C is now outselling MB's bread and butter E.

Personally, I think there are other cars out there that offer a lot more for the money (or for even less money), but apparently many people see what I don't see.

Normally, I like MB styling. I think the current S is still one of the best looking sedans ever made, and the E looks elegant (though not exciting). The C looks a bit out of proportion though. It looks as if the S and E tried to produce a "junior" and something a bit funky came out.

What's the news on MB's 3.5 V6? Are all current models with the 3.2 V6 getting upgraded, and when?

sharonf

Interesting about the brakes. I know one of the salesmen made a point out of showing us the brake rotor(I think that's what it is)..with the holes in it...supposedly to keep the heat from building up. Is this what you're referring to?
Yes, mom plans on keeping this car a while...she's not into cars...so is not the type to be trading in every couple years. She hates this whole experience because she just doesn't see any cars she likes on the road. I, on the other hand...wouldn't have that problem!
I think she is pretty much gonna go with Lexus...just deciding whether to get 2004 or an older one. My bro-in-law got an internet quote stating that they can discount a minimum $4000 off of MSRP right now...which would be about $37700....so it's a matter of working to get that down further....or go with the 2003 we saw with 20K miles for about $33K

merc1

Actually the C has outsold the E (in this country) for the last few years, but not by much. I'm sure Mercedes would like the higher margin E to be the bestselling Benz again, but oh well.

As for the new engines, the C won't get them until the next generation appears in 2007. A mistake in my opinion. Anyway at that time there will be a 205hp C250 (2.5L V6), a 225hp C300 (3.0L V6) and a C350 with 268hp. This should have been the case for 2005, but I'm not in charge. No more I4 "Kompressors" at that time. Just like they've done with the SLK for 2005. There will be a SLK300 (225hp 3.0L V6) introduced at the Paris car show in Sept.

The other "320" models (E320, CLK320 etc) will become "350" models for the 2006 MY.

M

lexusguy

What the salesman was refering to was a "drilled" brake rotor. What I'm talking about is Mercedes brake-by-wire system thats in the E and SL class, for now. This system is fully electronic, and has no psychical connection from the pedal to the actual brakes. It's supposed to make them better than traditional brakes, but it doesnt work as advertised. Stopping distances arent better, and if it werent for Mercedes putting in a back up mechanical system in case of emergency (apparently even they didnt trust their own crap) I think there would be a lot more accident reports. Also, they cant get the pedal feel right, because its a computer simulation of pedal feel, so it feels more like an on\off switch than a brake pedal. I've worked with computers long enough to know that software shouldn't be trusted for anything life dependant like brakes.

Sharon, I would honestly suggest you go with a 1-2 year old C.P.O model. There really isnt any advantage to the brand new car. The CPO warranty is just as long, and you dont have to baby the engine until it breaks in, or inhale toxic "new car" smell.

merc1

That braking distances aren't shorter simply isn't true in every Benz with SBC.

M

riez

karmikian... F1 is road course racing on tracks. We drive on streets. Can't say I care what NASCAR, IRL, F1, etc. use for engines or transmissions. [Is interesting that FIA did try, as part of their huge recent rule package, to go back to purely manual transmissions. Drivers and manufacturers fought them. Sad. Thought point of racing was to see who was better driver, not who has better TC, launch control, ABS, etc.]

I'll take Fangio driving a real car (one with full manual transmission, no TC, no ABS, etc.) over Michael Schumacher driving today's electronic aid extravaganzas any day!

brightness

Personally, I think there are other cars out there that offer a lot more for the money (or for even less money), but apparently many people see what I don't see.

The V6-powered hatchback is actually a reasonable value with the unique panorama sunroof. Now MB had better put the new 3.5 4-valve in there before someone else copies the targa-top.

brightness

Thought point of racing was to see who was better driver, not who has better TC, launch control, ABS, etc.

Then shouldn't they all drive identical regulation car supplied by the organizer (and draw lots to even out manufacturing variations)? Racing is fundamentally a product promotion event. IMHO, all the technological improvements should be allowed, including hybrids etc.. Otherwise, there will be a day soon enough that a road car can outrun a race car.

designman

As someone who appreciates both apples and oranges, and is not afraid to compare them, I think it’s time to sing praises for the human clutch. After all, everything has its proper place, and when it comes to sport driving in the real world, the manual transmission is as natural as the jockey’s horse.

The most significant part of conventional transmissions is that the human being is actually part of the drive train… not so with any kind of automatic or sequential shift mechanism. Speed is only one aspect… engagement with the engine, the road and the forces of nature are others. It is on this level that I believe manual transmissions may not die, just as the sail is still alive, well and highly revered on the water.

It is the work involved, the sophistication of natural elements, and connection to these elements that we crave. Technology has shown us a lot, but it has also demonstrated that it cannot remove us from nature. This is demonstrated by a wealth of other sporting activities. The next time you see an Olympic swimmer nearly in the buff, ask yourself exactly where technology fits into his next heat, and why it is not important to know that he can drive faster than he swims.

I think enough kids are being weaned on sticks these days to maintain a demand. Also the economy of manuals may remain a trump in its attempts to stay alive. We are in a transition period of auto technology where the dust will take quite a few years to settle. SMGs, CVTs… these things are not nailed down yet.

Look to Porsche as a telltale. Porsche owners are the biggest collection of stick enthusiasts around and they will die the hardest. Porsches are the ultimate real-world driving machines and when they abandon the manual transmission it may spell the end. Says here it won’t happen, but that’s only if they can stay alive and independent.

The baseball bat, the golf club, the horse, the sail—will the manual transmission settle into sporting eternity garnering as much reverence and significance? Or is it as doomed as the typewriter? Stick zealots, light the votive candles and pray. But in the meantime, enjoy the good pickins’ that are left.

:-)

lexusguy

I, for one, wont mind when the majority of the manuals have died. Like designman said, I dont think they will ever completely disappear, at least, not for quite a long time, but the strengths of a manual continue to disappear, one after the other. Manuals used to get better mpg. Now some cars get worse mpg with the stick. Manuals used to ALWAYS be faster. In most cases, with most engines, they still are. But in some cases, they are not. Manuals used to be the only way to get six cogs. Not anymore. Personally I think SMGs are great, and I am very interested to take a drive in a DSG equiped Audi. Rowing my own gears was great when I was a kid, but I get tired enough from work these days, I dont need my drive home to make matters worse. Manuals arent going anywhere for now though, at least not in Europe. I'm not sure if you even CAN rent an AT equiped car in France.

bmwmrc1

couldn't agree more. Some of us enjoyed manuals immensely for many years. We have now grown up and have other priorities. And one of those priorities is NOT shifting after a long day's work or a two hour stop and go traffic mess.

Sylvia

A newspaper reporter is looking for someone who bought a luxury car with lots of high-end gadgets and ended up either not programming most of it or having lots of problems getting it to work. Please respond to jfallon@edmunds.com by Thursday, July 8, 2004 by 5 p.m. Eastern and be sure to include your daytime phone number and a few words about your vehicle and gadgets.

Thanks!
Jeannine Fallon
PR Director
Edmunds.com

pg48477

I guess you would take IS300 with 5speed manual over Enzo with SMG. Just so you know you can't get it with MT and it runs aobut 1mill used and 650K MSRP.
I will not argue that SMG is the best way to drive( fun wise) but it's sure the fastest ay to move around the track and street.

lexusguy

The next RS6 will probably be DSG equiped as well, making it, the M5, the E55, and the S-TypeR all automatics. Only the Cadillac will be a stick, because lets face it, if they tried to use their 1980s 4-speed slushbox, people would just laugh in their face.

mariner7

Did anyone see the performance car comparo in Brit magazine EVO? They had Ferrari Stradale, Porsche GT3 and a Lambo, and a Mitsu Evo and a bunch of other cars. In the 0-100-0 and road course tests, the Evo just demolished everything else, I mean, nothing could come close enough to touch it. Wow, I bet new M5, RS6, E55 can't either.

I didn't know Mitsu had such engineering magic, but they may not be able to survive their marketing/manufacturing woes!

w210

BMW is most successful combining performance and luxury

BMW's latest take on luxury is not to my liking, I'm not impressed with their poorly designed user interface at all.

I find iDrive a pain instead of a luxury.

I think Audi and MB are more down to earth with superior ergonomics.

designman

"I will not argue that SMG is the best way to drive( fun wise) but it's sure the fastest ay to move around the track and street."

I believe the difference in speed capabilities between SMG and Manual is marginal. Furthermore, I read somewhere in a recent mag (can't remeber exactly) that an M3 with manual clocked better times than one with SMG. This of course is narrow in scope but the bottom line is that the difference does not seem overwhelming—lot's of hyperbole. The loss of sport going from human clutch to SMG is very overwhelming IMO.

What I do like about SMG is that they seem to be perfecting it for people who are basically AT drivers... making them smoother for cruising. I hear the new BMW SMGs have 11 modes. Would like to take one for a day and play around with it to see where it's at.

lexusguy

I guess you arent much of a WRC fan are you? The Subies and Evos that we get here in the states are TAME, though word is we are getting the Lancer Evo MR, which can pull 1G on the skidpad. You wont see an E55 or M5 doing that. The German cars are just too big and heavy, and they dont have the rally bred AWD systems that let the Evo drive like its on rails. This 320hp Subie WR1 SE, for example, will make an M3 look like its driving backwards.

designman

Nice post. I like Subies too.
But you're killing us with the
size of the shot...
Please limit to 640 pixel width maximum.
Thanks.

lexusguy

Stuck on narrowband?

designman

Nah, I'm on a T1. It's just that my neck gets
sore reading the long horizontal line measures.
And anyone on small screen at low res might
pull an Elvis and shoot the monitor because
of all the scrolling.

;-)

pat

You would do the community a favor if you delete and repost using either a smaller pic, or a link to the one you displayed.

riez

w210... Too bad both MB and Audi have followed BMW down the iDrive road to perdition. Their systems may be slightly less bad, but they are a step backward from where they used to be before the systems.

All things are relative. I concur with your concerns regarding BMW's path. But MB and Audi appear to be making the same mistakes. Driver interfaces. Ugly design. Just look at the new Audi nose. Were they on drugs?

karmikan

I've respected the contents of your posts designman but this time you're way off base. SMG is not simply another rendition of a slush box, it's a manual gearbox with a computer-actuated clutch and shift mechanism (you likely know this but...). It is possible to put the system in "auto" mode with the shift changes being made based on revs rather than driver input but it is not an auto box in normal mode.

I don't know what the testing process was in the article you read but I believe that it's impossible that a manual can beat an SMG given equal conditions (tires, traction control on/off etc). The total shift process with SMG takes a few tenths of a second, no-one (I mean no-one) can shift that quickly. Surely, logic would say that if the best drivers in the world benefit immensely from SMG it must be superior to manual. Remember that SMG replaced a racing clutch and a sequential shift mechanism in F1. The difference between SMG and a standard clutch and gated shifter in a street car is quantum.

I've driven manual transmissions most of my life and had the opportunity to autocross an SMG-equipped M3 at the BMW driving school last summer. I was amazed how much it ENHANCES the driving experience (although the M3 shift was slightly harsh, I've read that the Audi system is better). Both hands on the wheel, left foot braking, point and shoot - wow! The system even 'blips' the throttle on downshifts.

Analogy - manual clutch = dial knob on a TV (remember those?). SMG = TV remote. Neither improves or degrades the quality of the reception or programs, one just requires relatively slow manual effort. I'm not in favor of technology for its own sake (e.g. iDrive) but IMO, SMG will prove to be a significant milestone.

karmikan

The Subaru WR1 and Lancer Evo are about as closely related to real WRC cars as the Camaro IROC Z was to the racing series. The only commonalties are the name, badge and appearance.

lexusguy

Not quite. Sure, if it was EXACTLY the same as the race car, it would cost about as much as a Ferrari Enzo. There are things that have made the transition to street car though, the driver adjustable center diff, intercooler sprayers, etc. The WR1 or EvoMR share a lot more with their racing counterparts than say, a Ford Taurus does with its Nascar counterpart, which is nothing at all. Mitsubishi's Turbocharged 2.0L 4 for example is the same engine the WRC car uses. Subaru however uses a purpose built 2.5L turbo in their street cars which isnt rally spec.

warthog

While these cars are certainly "performance" sedans, they are not "luxury" sedans. Doesn't that make them off-topic for this thread?

lexusguy

The whole Evo\WRX topic was started by someone saying that an Evo was beating some VERY prominent and VERY expensive luxury performance cars. I just chimed in with my 2 cents.

designman

Drats! I'm suddenly locking horns with one of my favorite posters. Wish you'd come around more often. I hope you didn't take my use of the sail analogy as touche… wasn't my intention.

Allow me to make myself clear. I think I've acknowledged in no uncertain terms that advanced transmissions and technology are manifest destiny, putting perspective on manual transmission with my typewriter analogy. I guess we're stuck on hyperbole. I'll waive a white flag here where track is concerned. Heck, the difference between first and second is quantum indeed.

Also, I pretty much dismissed the manual transmission vs SMG M3 comparison I cited by calling it narrow in scope. There probably were extenuating circumstances. I wish I could remember where I read it and I don't library auto mags. It was over a month ago so the issue is no longer on the newsstand. What I do remember is that it was a sidebar, low-key in tenor, and that I wrote it off as the driver's lack of familiarity with the SMG transmission. So yes, I can be indicted for specious use of information that was never intended to be scientific or profound.

Here's my only challenge and I trust this will not become exacerbated. I don't see the MT/SMG comparison in your abacus/calculator analogy. We're not exactly going from scribes to the Gutenberg press here. A simpleton with a calculator can outperform a genius with an abacus. An idiot with SMG will not outperform a skilled stick man. Chances of seeing this on professional tracks may be slim-to-nil, but I think there could be a fair share of street urchins rubbing this in each other's faces.

mariner7

It was me just commenting that mag EVO had the Mitsu Evo demolishing Ferrari/Porsche/Lambo in its comparo. I still can't quite believe, and will have to look at that feature more carefully. BTW, they also had a WRX, which did well but not in same league as Evo.

Let me throw a question at you: do you think any of the Nippon 3 can produce a car on par with Evo if it wants to? My answer has to be no, until someone proves otherwise.

lexusguy

Its not really that they cant, the question is whether or not they want to make a street car like that. Ford competes in the WRC with the Focus, and yet they dont seem to offer an AWD 300+hp road going version. Peugot, Citroen, and Toyota also dont offer street versions of their rally cars. Honda and Nissan dont race in the WRC, so yes, a car like the Evo from them isnt likely. Which version of the WRX was it? Our WRX STi is pretty tame, the really hot, super performance versions like the WR1, P1, and 22b, we've never gotten.

manybmws

You need a faster computer not a faster car!

designman

I have news for you. A lot of people have faster cars than me but there aren't too many that have faster computers. My PC does 0-60 in 4.2 secs, my Macs... 2.2 secs. They handle the curves great also. They have to because my workday has plenty of them ;-)

warthog

I'm with you--Macs rule. (Sorry for off-topic, but I couldn't resist.)

lexusguy

LOL, I might not be the most knowledgable about cars in this forum, but you guys don't want to tangle with me on computing horsepower. Mac fanatics are fanatic (for some reason) about OSX. Most Mac people are either completely ignorant of what's in their computers all together, or buy in to the Apple advertising that they are faster even though they are GREATLY outclocked by PCs. Not true guys, sorry. G4s can be crushed by Pentium IIIs. (and ripped in half by the PIII derived Pentium-M). Then of course theres the G5. "First 64-bit desktop processor" says Apple. Wrong. AMD beat them by months. Then Steve Jobs says "3Ghz by the end of 2003!" Im still waiting Steve. IBM bit off a bit more than they could chew, thinking hey Motorola could never do it, but WE'VE got what it takes to tango with Intel and AMD. No, no you dont. Everything you can do on a Mac you can do on a PC faster and cheaper, (with the single exception of Final Cut pro, and there ARE alternatives). Another little tidbit, as much as Mac people love to bash Microsoft, Windows updates dont cost a single penny. OSX 10.1, 10.2, and now 10.3 have cost $130 each. When you've got a blindly devoted fanbase who will pay your blatantly outrageous mark ups for inferior hardware, I guess that doesnt matter much. - End rant.

designman

Warthog, I don't know about you but I'm biting my knuckles after that one. Lexusguy, thanks for challenge but I think I'll pass. This ain't the place. Cars are a hobby for me, computers are work and it's Saturday morning.

warthog

Yes, and a Camaro will whip a BMW 5 at the dragstrip. So what? Gates had to steal the idea for Windows from Apple and after that it took him another 10 years to get within shouting distance of the Mac interface. I'll concede that they are now about even, but Microsoft is about as innovative as the Japanese carmakers. And speaking of fanatics . . .

lexusguy

Hahha. No Z28 I've seen can beat an M5. Apple stole it from Xerox, so it's ultimately them who, through their own lack of vision and stupidity, lost out. I'm not sure what Windows 3.1 has to do with today's computers. I'm not saying that Windows is better than OSX. Lord knows Windows has its problems, I use Linux at work because I dont have the patience for security holes and crashes. My point was that PC hardware is faster and cheaper than Mac hardware.