"Gates had to steal the idea for Windows from Apple..."
That's kinda like the pot calling the kettle black isn't it? After all, Apple stole the Mac/Lisa interface from Xeroxs' Alto (1973) and STAR Information System (1979) pioneered by their Palo Alto Research Center (often referred to as PARC Labs).
Too true shippo. Apple picked PARCs pocket on that one but it was a wonderful implementation at the time. But then, Apple had the Palm Pilot universe in the, well, palm of its hand with the Newton only to blow it with dopey marketing. OTOH, I do database design largely using Access and if I ever get Bill Gates in the headlights of my (soon I hope) 2005 545, I'm stepping on the gas.
SMG: I had the opportunity to drive a 530 with SMG for about an hour a couple of months ago and, to me, it felt like BMW's engineers had done a fair job of imitating a manual. It did not feel like an automatic or the much hated Triptronic. For example, when you put it in first or reverse and let off the brake, the car did not creep forward like a slush bucket equipped car would. This, I assume, because when you shift an MT into first it doesn't start to move till you let the clutch out and, usually, give it some gas. So, the engineers designed SMG not to move till you give it gas as well.
I also noticed you got a little hesitation and bump between first and second and second and third but not in the higher gears much like the experience you're used to in a proper manual.
What I couldn't tell was whether this was just a good job of BMW mimicking a manual or whether, it really would perform like an MT. I've thought about getting one in my 545 but am just not sure it'll be as pleasant as an MT over time.
Would very much appreciate other opinions on this.
So far the impressions I've had driving SMG equiped cars have been positive. I've driven the Maserati Coupe Cambiocorsa on several occasions, and I find the SMG to be a fun and involving way to enjoy the typical characteristics of a stick, while at the same time, the wife can switch it to full auto and just enjoy the car. It makes the 5-speed in my XKR look like 19th century garbage, thats for sure.
MAC or PC? Forget the Mac...forget windows, get a PC and run UNIX/Linux. There really should be no further discussion about this.
Manual or SMG? For the purist, there is no substitute for a true stick. That being said, SMGs are actually quite good at replicating the driving experience of a manual. At least that is the impression I got after driving my uncle's 04 M3 SMG conv.
Here are some spy pics of the (production?) 2005 RL, taken near Dulles Airport in VA. Looks very much like the prototype, except the wheels. Overall, a pleasing design.
The front end is nice!!! The rear not soo nice, looks a bit like the BMW 7-series, Hyundai Elantra, tailights look like the recent Scion tc as well as Elantra and Tiburon. But still, the good looks of the front far outweigh the rear end and it is still alot more original than the last RL.
MAX, look at the back ends of the cars and tell us which part looks like a 7 series....
Here's what doesn't look like a 7 as I see it. The top of the trunk on the seven angles back and the honda goes forward so, the top of the shape is opposite, totally opposite. Looking down from that you can see that the BMW has a light bar that extends horizontally above the license plate mounting and extending. The honda has a chrome bar that looks like a camry, malibu or sonota. The proportion of the back in relation to the rear window is smooth on the honda and flows in a line with the top of the car. The proportion of the trunk and rear on the BMW is its own with a transition. Look the taillight shape is exactly the opposite. The shape is different. The proportion is different.
They are nothing alike.......what are you talking about?
And, the M3 with SMG is going to shift faster and more precise on a consistent basis than humanly possible with a manual clutch.
I agree with Max. The overwhelming feature of the Bangle rear ends is that the trunk lid looks like it was added on from the spare parts bin after the car was otherwise finished. There's no integration with the fenders. The RL shares this feature. The slope, light bar, etc., are all incidental compared to the bustle butt.
Yep, I definitely see the resembelance between the Bangle butt and the RL butt as well. As warthog describes, the trunk lid seems like it was added on, without any "flow". However, the RL rear is less egregious and works better than the rear of the 7 and the 6. The rear of the 7 and the 6 is just plain UGLY.
How you come up with I don't like the 7-series from my previous post is beyond me!!
In the post, did I say somewhere I do not like the 7-series?
In the post, did I say somewhere I like the RL? the RL more than the 7-series?
I merely said the RL rear has hints of 7-series back end, which it obviously does. How that translates to not liking the 7-series only you know. Good luck finding out.
Don't you guys just love seeing pics of a new model out on the road for the first time!
I agree with the notion that it has a 7-Series theme going on in the rear. The side profile is where the car falls apart imo. It simply looks like a giant Accord. The front kinda looks like a Phaeton to me. The new RL isn't an ugly car by any means (very few Honda products are), but it surely isn't a looker either at least not in pics. The front end really looks like the Phaeton to me though. The overall look is kinda like the TL, a collection of other themes from other cars that don't add up to make a good looking Acura. Still too generic.
I'll still hold off on final judgement until I actually see the car in person though.
"Hahha. No Z28 I've seen can beat an M5. Apple stole it from Xerox, so it's ultimately them who, through their own lack of vision and stupidity, lost out. I'm not sure what Windows 3.1 has to do with today's computers. I'm not saying that Windows is better than OSX. Lord knows Windows has its problems, I use Linux at work because I dont have the patience for security holes and crashes. My point was that PC hardware is faster and cheaper than Mac hardware. "
Well....Actually the prototype for windows was designed by a team at IBM. IBM did not want it and offered to sell it to Steve Jobs. Steve sent Gates (his friend) to assess the value of this program. Gates declared it useless, then had his own team copy it after IBM and Apple passed it by....
Funny how none of that came out in the Apple v. Microsoft patent infringement trial several years ago. I guess their minions of $500/hour lawyers somehow missed it.
Again, in computer years its all ancient history. The whole thing is kind of pointless, as my comments were based on the effectiveness of IBM PowerPC vs. Intel (or AMD) architecture, and not the OSes anyway.
How did this topic get to Windowing environments? By the way, Windows 1 & 2 were straight lift off's of IBM OS/2. They partenered for the first version and then went different ways. OS/2 withered away despite being a more solid operating system. I've never figured out how IBM manages to kills spectacular products.
ksoman... You wrote, "I've never figured out how IBM manages to kills spectacular products."
Back in the 1970s and 1980s IBM was the 900 pound gorilla. Feds were pursuing possible anti-trust violations. Competitors were afraid of its market dominance. I remember when people were afraid IBM might dominate hardware and software. MS was relatively small. Would be interesting to see how their products were priced and bundled. Did IBM charge more or bundle in proprietary systems? Now MS is the 9000 pound gorilla, while IBM seems to focus more on computer business intergration management. (Will be interesting to see outcome of European anti-trust action now that MS has settled its American actions.)
I was wondering which octance you are using in your M45s? Is everyone using premium? Anyone using regular? Has anyone done a comparison between the two grades? Thanks
Why would you use a lesser grade than the manufacturer recommends. They have no reason to recommend a more expensvie grade than is necessary, after all.
For cars that spec premium, if you use regular gasoline, you won't get the power or mileage that you paid for. Cars that are spec for regular get no benefit from premium though.
A midwestern newspaper would like to talk with someone who, in the past month, bought a luxury vehicle (other than a Lexus) for which no incentives were available. Please reply to jfallon@edmunds.com by Friday, October 8, 2004 with your daytime contact info and a few words about your purchase decision. Thanks!
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The STS V6 Luxury Performance is also $49.5k, just like the RL. Of course, it doesn't have AWD like the RL, but does have a few luxury knick-knacks that the RL doesn't.
Many people don't consider it on this forum b/c it's an American car, but I think it's a worthy member of this class.
The establishment is going to have to get used to Cadillac fielding serious competition (finally!). They cant afford to ignore them much in the same way that MB couldnt afford to ignore Lexus 15 years ago.
Hard to tell at this point. I dont think the XLR is selling particularly well, though. What I find harder to believe is Cadillac is thinking buyers are going to fork over $60K+ for the V8. Thats E500 money.
I think Infiniti can pull it off, the FX and G have been huge successes for Infiniti, they have shown that they can play with the Germans on their terms of power and sportiness. At this point I think the M35\M45 is the strongest midsize contender from Japan. RL, dont know. Im not sure if it has the styling to really grab attention like the M, but, having all those features as standard equipement rather than multi-thousand dollar "premium packages" plus the revolutionary AWD system and near V8 power for $48K may impress buyers. The TL definitely seems to be a hit.
Its not really the platform sharing that is killing them. The ES330 is built on the Toyota Camry. Is that any better than a Mondeo? Lexus gets people to pay thousands over a Camry XLE by how good the ES330 really is at its mission, which is the ultimate luxury\coddling machine you can get for under $50K or so. Jaguar cant do just luxury, which is the biggest problem with the X-type. It has to try and match the ES on the luxury and materials front, which it clearly does not, and then try to have Euro-car sportiness too, which it doesnt have either, because the Mondeo platform doesnt even hold a candle to the ultra-sophisticated platforms under C320, 330i, and A4. Add to that the fact that Ford cant build a competent V6, and you've got a big fat $40K flop.
The S-type's problems are numerous. The interior of the first generation was just a joke, and while it has gotten better, its still not good enough. They also have not done enough to differentiate the styling of the current car versus the first one, so I think to most people it looks like the S-type hasnt changed at all. And like the X-type, it runs into the same problems. They cant afford to spend enough on the interior, so its not as good as A6 or E500, and its LS platform is basically a joke compared to the class leaders. Then there's the engine, the 4.2L is barely good enough to take on the E430 and 540i. The Germans have new, significantly more advanced and more powerful 8s that Ford's engine cant come close to.
I really dont know how Jaguar plans to get out of this. They obviously cant afford to develop independent platforms like the new XJ for every car, but at the same time, Ford doesnt have good enough platforms in its stable for Jaguar to use against the fierce competition from all over the world. If they decide to not bother with entry and midsized contenders in this "more focused" business plans, and just make XJ and XK8s, its still going to be extremely difficult. People expect 5 to 6 year cycles now for new models, and for somebody like M-B or BMW, thats no problem. When you're a tiny 2 car company though, theres no way you can afford to do that, which would leave them in the same situation they are in now, having their cars outdated and outmatched by the competition.
lexusguy, there's one crucial difference between Xtype and ES330. ES makes no pretense of sports and doesn't try to keep up with the sports sedan crowd. One big disadvantage Jag has is it doesn't have any SUV to sell. Another is all its cars come from different platforms, making for manufacturing inefficiency. Another is it uses British manufacturing practices. I read workers there can bring food to the assembly line! Ouch!
I can understand Honda's descision. Nissan, despite being almost dead 5 years ago, has yanked the #2 spot from them. Honda needs to focus on its core business, not dreams of chasing Porsche and Ferrari. The Civic is getting beaten badly by more powerful competition, and I dont think the Accord styling went over that well with the general public. Honda and Acura need to work on updating their mainstream cars and trucks faster, not niche market exotics.
As for the ES, thats basically what I said. The ES enjoys essentially zero competition, its the IS that Lexus is trying to position against Germany and the rest of Japan, and they are still trying to figure out how to do that successfully.
Audi essentially has no SUVs either (the All-road doesnt really count) but they arent in the red like Jaguar is. That British manufacturing process may not apply anymore, as Ford has closed the Coventry plant to try and stop the money bleeding.
That they do. I almost wonder though, if Jaguar would've been better off if GM had won the bid for the company, rather than Ford. I really dont like what the General has done to Saab, but the CTS platform is much better than the Mondeo's, and it also would've allowed the X-type to be proper RWD. I know many Jaguar fans were not happy that it was stuck with an adapted FWD car. The 3.6L DOHC V6 in the CTS is also much better than Ford's engine. It can compete with international competition. The X-type 3.0 cant. I dread to think about what GM would've done to Jaguar interiors though, and a Jag version of the Chevy Tahoe?? UGHH.
And Audi is paying dearly for not having SUV's. The volume it does in US is about fourth of BMW, third of MB. Talking about a quixotic chase for glory. Touareg should be an Audi, meanwhile VW has no affordable SUV to fight the Pilot/Hlander crowd.
lexusguy, GM's proven it can destroy a brand identity faster than imaginable. Saab's having a terrible time in Europe because people know underneath it's just an Opel. Now underneath it's also a Subaru & Chevy! If GM owns Jag, XJ is just an STS, S type a CTS. Ford has done everything it could for Jag, which I think is beyond saving.
I'm surprised no one comments on Toyota's V10 & M6 challenger. I read Toyota's also building a car bigger than LS, probably with V10 as option.
lexusguy, I disagree Honda shouldn't challenge Toyota in hyper performance. Honda has the most F1 experience and talent of any company not named Ferrari. They currently lie in 2nd in F1 standings. They always pride themselves as a non-pareil engine builder. You got to stick to your roots, or else they're going to lose a lot. I think Honda's one of the three top automakers in terms of gross profits (Toy & Nissan being the other 2). So they do have the financial resources to finance a road going V10.
Agree that the Touareg should've been an Audi A7 from day one. The all-road is a tall A6 Avant with a huge price tag and no one is buying. Thats not Audi's only problem though. The A4 is strong, but the A8 has always been in the shadow of S, 7, and LS. A6 sales arent great compared to the competition either.
I also agree that GM has essentially ruined Saab. The 9-7x is the last nail in the cofffin. The Jag situation is different though. The CTS platform is much better than Mondeo. And the '05 STS beats the pants off the Lincoln LS, which is a last place finisher thats been forgotten. Ford did serious damage to the X-type and S-type by using its dated, uncompetitive platforms under them. Ford's crappy 3.0L Duratec V6 did nothing for the X-type, and their 4.2L Lincoln LS V8 isnt good enough either. Ford needs to get more power, A LOT more power, out of its DOHC engines if they want Jag to survive. The Mazda 3 platform is great for Volvo S40 and Focus. Now Ford needs to do the same thing with its midsize platform, and the Volvo P2 isnt the answer.
All that F1 talent is great, but Honda absolutely cannot ignore slipping sales of its core cars to focus on some new exotic that might sell a few thousand cars a year. VW let their core sales cars twist in the wind while they worked on the Phaeton, and look what happened there. A V10 street car from Honda, thats a lark. They were too timid to even make a V8. Honda needs to stop that conservatism. Nissan was conservative and slow moving in the 90s, and it nearly killed them. Nissan made a spectacular comeback with bold, brash moves and a "lets give er more power!" attitude. Honda needs to try some of that. Why arent Type R cars even on sale in the US? Its like they are just asking for Sentra SE-R, Focus SVT, Neon SRT-4, etc, to crush them.
Yes the S type has definitely evolved well and the XJ will always make you skip a heart beat, even if its a older model sitting rusting on the side of the street.
Good or bad the XJ is my birthday present to myself when i turn 40. period.
Yep. Rented one in London. Its a nice car, it makes the Taurus look like a joke, thats for sure. I have always wondered why Ford makes cars like the Mondeo and Falcon for other parts of the world, and we're stuck with garbage. While the Mondeo makes a very nice Ford, it makes for a poor Jaguar. The Mondeo is FWD, and the AWD X-type tries to cover that up, but the DNA is still there. Not bad, but competition for A4 or 3 series? No.
Where already well past the '70s era hp wars. Remember those were SAE gross HP ratings, so those "450hp" cars would not stack up with a 450hp engine in todays terms. The V-10 M5 would make even the most powerful GTO or Cuda look like it was standing still.
Comments
That's kinda like the pot calling the kettle black isn't it? After all, Apple stole the Mac/Lisa interface from Xeroxs' Alto (1973) and STAR Information System (1979) pioneered by their Palo Alto Research Center (often referred to as PARC Labs).
Best Regards,
Shipo
SMG: I had the opportunity to drive a 530 with SMG for about an hour a couple of months ago and, to me, it felt like BMW's engineers had done a fair job of imitating a manual. It did not feel like an automatic or the much hated Triptronic. For example, when you put it in first or reverse and let off the brake, the car did not creep forward like a slush bucket equipped car would. This, I assume, because when you shift an MT into first it doesn't start to move till you let the clutch out and, usually, give it some gas. So, the engineers designed SMG not to move till you give it gas as well.
I also noticed you got a little hesitation and bump between first and second and second and third but not in the higher gears much like the experience you're used to in a proper manual.
What I couldn't tell was whether this was just a good job of BMW mimicking a manual or whether, it really would perform like an MT. I've thought about getting one in my 545 but am just not sure it'll be as pleasant as an MT over time.
Would very much appreciate other opinions on this.
Manual or SMG? For the purist, there is no substitute for a true stick. That being said, SMGs are actually quite good at replicating the driving experience of a manual. At least that is the impression I got after driving my uncle's 04 M3 SMG conv.
There is an SH-AWD badge in the back.
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Here's what doesn't look like a 7 as I see it. The top of the trunk on the seven angles back and the honda goes forward so, the top of the shape is opposite, totally opposite. Looking down from that you can see that the BMW has a light bar that extends horizontally above the license plate mounting and extending. The honda has a chrome bar that looks like a camry, malibu or sonota. The proportion of the back in relation to the rear window is smooth on the honda and flows in a line with the top of the car. The proportion of the trunk and rear on the BMW is its own with a transition. Look the taillight shape is exactly the opposite. The shape is different. The proportion is different.
They are nothing alike.......what are you talking about?
And, the M3 with SMG is going to shift faster and more precise on a consistent basis than humanly possible with a manual clutch.
Read warthog's post. He hit the nail on the head.
The point is that the rear of these two cars are not similar. And, if we look at things objectively, it's clear they are not similar.
In the post, did I say somewhere I do not like the 7-series?
In the post, did I say somewhere I like the RL? the RL more than the 7-series?
I merely said the RL rear has hints of 7-series back end, which it obviously does. How that translates to not liking the 7-series only you know. Good luck finding out.
Not really. I have read many comments in other forums as well that the rear theme of the new RL and the 7 are similar.
So just because YOU think they don't look similar, that makes it objective? LMAO...
Let's get away from making this personal, folks.
I agree with the notion that it has a 7-Series theme going on in the rear. The side profile is where the car falls apart imo. It simply looks like a giant Accord. The front kinda looks like a Phaeton to me. The new RL isn't an ugly car by any means (very few Honda products are), but it surely isn't a looker either at least not in pics. The front end really looks like the Phaeton to me though. The overall look is kinda like the TL, a collection of other themes from other cars that don't add up to make a good looking Acura. Still too generic.
I'll still hold off on final judgement until I actually see the car in person though.
M
Well....Actually the prototype for windows was designed by a team at IBM. IBM did not want it and offered to sell it to Steve Jobs. Steve sent Gates (his friend) to assess the value of this program. Gates declared it useless, then had his own team copy it after IBM and Apple passed it by....
http://www.theautochannel.com/F/news/2004/07/28/206184.html
http://www.media.audiusa.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=9472
Looks like a well equipped A6 3.2 Quattro will be around $48,000. Nice car...
The current A6 sells about 1800 per month.
what gives?
ksso
ksso
Back in the 1970s and 1980s IBM was the 900 pound gorilla. Feds were pursuing possible anti-trust violations. Competitors were afraid of its market dominance. I remember when people were afraid IBM might dominate hardware and software. MS was relatively small. Would be interesting to see how their products were priced and bundled. Did IBM charge more or bundle in proprietary systems? Now MS is the 9000 pound gorilla, while IBM seems to focus more on computer business intergration management. (Will be interesting to see outcome of European anti-trust action now that MS has settled its American actions.)
http://secure.grubbs.com/grubbsinfiniti/_M45/Options.pdf
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Many people don't consider it on this forum b/c it's an American car, but I think it's a worthy member of this class.
http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=100963
Lexus & BMW both sell more than 200K in the US, why can't Jag sell that much worldwide?
I think platform sharing is the killer. S type is off LS, which is almost 10 year old. X type is off Mondeo.
Memo to Ford: if you want to play with the big boys, don't do it on the cheap.
It'll be interesting to see RL/M/GS duke it out for Nippon performance sedan supremacy. My guess is they will fight to a draw!
The S-type's problems are numerous. The interior of the first generation was just a joke, and while it has gotten better, its still not good enough. They also have not done enough to differentiate the styling of the current car versus the first one, so I think to most people it looks like the S-type hasnt changed at all. And like the X-type, it runs into the same problems. They cant afford to spend enough on the interior, so its not as good as A6 or E500, and its LS platform is basically a joke compared to the class leaders. Then there's the engine, the 4.2L is barely good enough to take on the E430 and 540i. The Germans have new, significantly more advanced and more powerful 8s that Ford's engine cant come close to.
I really dont know how Jaguar plans to get out of this. They obviously cant afford to develop independent platforms like the new XJ for every car, but at the same time, Ford doesnt have good enough platforms in its stable for Jaguar to use against the fierce competition from all over the world. If they decide to not bother with entry and midsized contenders in this "more focused" business plans, and just make XJ and XK8s, its still going to be extremely difficult. People expect 5 to 6 year cycles now for new models, and for somebody like M-B or BMW, thats no problem. When you're a tiny 2 car company though, theres no way you can afford to do that, which would leave them in the same situation they are in now, having their cars outdated and outmatched by the competition.
Honda decided against building a NSX successor. But if anything can change its mind, this is it!
http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=101005
lexusguy, there's one crucial difference between Xtype and ES330. ES makes no pretense of sports and doesn't try to keep up with the sports sedan crowd. One big disadvantage Jag has is it doesn't have any SUV to sell. Another is all its cars come from different platforms, making for manufacturing inefficiency. Another is it uses British manufacturing practices. I read workers there can bring food to the assembly line! Ouch!
As for the ES, thats basically what I said. The ES enjoys essentially zero competition, its the IS that Lexus is trying to position against Germany and the rest of Japan, and they are still trying to figure out how to do that successfully.
Audi essentially has no SUVs either (the All-road doesnt really count) but they arent in the red like Jaguar is. That British manufacturing process may not apply anymore, as Ford has closed the Coventry plant to try and stop the money bleeding.
lexusguy, GM's proven it can destroy a brand identity faster than imaginable. Saab's having a terrible time in Europe because people know underneath it's just an Opel. Now underneath it's also a Subaru & Chevy! If GM owns Jag, XJ is just an STS, S type a CTS. Ford has done everything it could for Jag, which I think is beyond saving.
I'm surprised no one comments on Toyota's V10 & M6 challenger. I read Toyota's also building a car bigger than LS, probably with V10 as option.
lexusguy, I disagree Honda shouldn't challenge Toyota in hyper performance. Honda has the most F1 experience and talent of any company not named Ferrari. They currently lie in 2nd in F1 standings. They always pride themselves as a non-pareil engine builder. You got to stick to your roots, or else they're going to lose a lot. I think Honda's one of the three top automakers in terms of gross profits (Toy & Nissan being the other 2). So they do have the financial resources to finance a road going V10.
I also agree that GM has essentially ruined Saab. The 9-7x is the last nail in the cofffin. The Jag situation is different though. The CTS platform is much better than Mondeo. And the '05 STS beats the pants off the Lincoln LS, which is a last place finisher thats been forgotten. Ford did serious damage to the X-type and S-type by using its dated, uncompetitive platforms under them. Ford's crappy 3.0L Duratec V6 did nothing for the X-type, and their 4.2L Lincoln LS V8 isnt good enough either. Ford needs to get more power, A LOT more power, out of its DOHC engines if they want Jag to survive. The Mazda 3 platform is great for Volvo S40 and Focus. Now Ford needs to do the same thing with its midsize platform, and the Volvo P2 isnt the answer.
All that F1 talent is great, but Honda absolutely cannot ignore slipping sales of its core cars to focus on some new exotic that might sell a few thousand cars a year. VW let their core sales cars twist in the wind while they worked on the Phaeton, and look what happened there. A V10 street car from Honda, thats a lark. They were too timid to even make a V8. Honda needs to stop that conservatism. Nissan was conservative and slow moving in the 90s, and it nearly killed them. Nissan made a spectacular comeback with bold, brash moves and a "lets give er more power!" attitude. Honda needs to try some of that. Why arent Type R cars even on sale in the US? Its like they are just asking for Sentra SE-R, Focus SVT, Neon SRT-4, etc, to crush them.
Good or bad the XJ is my birthday present to myself when i turn 40. period.
ksso
ksso
Where already well past the '70s era hp wars. Remember those were SAE gross HP ratings, so those "450hp" cars would not stack up with a 450hp engine in todays terms. The V-10 M5 would make even the most powerful GTO or Cuda look like it was standing still.