And there is a wealth of information under the Leasing section of this link (at the bottom of the page in the center) as well as the various leasing discussions on our Smart Shopper board.
I'm not elated that the RL price has dropped this far off msrp. Frankly I really am surprised this happened. I love the car and it is paid for, but I am not going to say everything is peachy keen and defend the reality of that price drop.
I feel for you and would probably be bummed as well if I were in your shoes. Clearly sales are not what Acura had hoped they would be; the interest for the RL is not nearly as high as Acura had hoped for. Motor Trend magazine ran a poll in conjunction with a 6-sedan comparison. They asked readers "Which luxury sedan would you buy?" The RL finished dead last with 1% of the vote (171,368 votes to date)
True, the survey is absolutely NOT about actual sales; it is about desirablility. Another point is that it is not anyting close to a "scientific" survey and no doubt needs to be taken with a shaker of salt - however it was a national poll by a major respectable auto magazine in conjunction with their report on these 6 cars. I am astounded by the results and Acura must be embarassed.
Not sure about Motor Trend but I do recall a similar poll on Car and Driver OnLine that asked which model you would spend $55K on (since the article compared cars in the $55K price range). The RL didn't do very well in that poll, either.
However, since the RL lists for $49K, you could also argue that only a moron would vote to spend $55K since that is $6K over its list price.
When 2 models capture 88% of the total vote, and cars as diverse as the S-Type, 5-series, STS, and RL collectively garner only 8%, there is something wrong. It's so far off real world sales that you have to wonder about the validitiy of such a poll.
I wonder if the RL is going to go the way of the Infiniti Q45. Since the Lexus 400 was generally considered the better car, the sales were almost a winner take all situation, with all going to Lexus and nearly none to the Q45. Will the same thing happen to the RL vis a vis the M? Since the M is generally favored, perhaps there will be the same kind of winner take all situation and RL sales will virtually dry up. What do you think?
Had the A6 in first place. Yet in actual sales, its 2nd to last, just above Acura by a few hundred cars. Based on actual sales, BMW, Infiniti, Lexus, and Cadillac (who enjoys a certain segment of the population that wont consider a foreign car) are doing well. MB still has a lot, but sales are way down. Audi and Acura, not so good. Then again, I'm not sure what Audi's sales expectations were.
bartalk, FWIW, the Q45 is amazingly still around. I'm pretty sure Infiniti still wants to do another one. I seriously dont see the RL going away. Part of its problem is the platform just doesnt allow for enough size, which cant be fixed with a midcycle refresh. The styling part can though. I think if Acura makes some changes and makes the car more agressive like the TSX and TL, it may get more interest.
I was pretty much set on getting a 525i at the end of the year until I saw the comparisons in some of the automobile magazines, but now I'm wavering. I love the body style of the 5 series, but the M35 seems to be the better value. I really haven't heard a negative thing about it. But, I haven't been able to find out if the M35 comes with intelligent key standard. Can anyone clue me in? Also, does anyone know if comfort access is going to be offered on the 5 series later this year? Right now, the thing that makes the 525i for me is the HUD. Also, which navigation system is better, the BMW or the Inifiniti? One more also, which car has the better voice command and recognition? Thanks!
Im pretty sure that intelligent key is standard on the M35. Technology wise, (NAV, BT, voice control, reverse camera, LDW, etc.) the M35 walks all over the BMW. Power is also no comparison.
"But, I haven't been able to find out if the M35 comes with intelligent key standard. Can anyone clue me in?"
The M has no key. It's a push button starter. Key fob in your pocket. Or your cupholder/ashtray/keyfob slot.
I can't comment on the navigation or voice command of the 5 series, as I found the interior to be so ugly (imo) that I didn't bother to explore it much further than a basic test drive. Also, if you drive both, 525i vs M35, you will find that the M35 blows the 525i away....if that sort of thing is important to you.
If you're going to truly compare the two you would have to drive the 530i. I realize it's more expensive than the 525i, but as Lexusguy and Richcream point out, the M35 has more power. I'll point out that the 525i isn't meant to have as much power as the M35 because the 530i does. I don't know where the idea came from that the technology in the M blows the BMW away (sounds like a statement based on very little true facts) because most people that have the new 5 love the voice commands and NAV as well as the HUD. What is comfort access?
Well, I guess you could doubt the validity of any test drive then because any driver could have a off day. About the numbers, yes the M slightly wins the performance side, but it really won the comparison based on styling and price (where the scoring was less close). Bottom line is, pretty much all of this is subjective to a degree. It's why I say that there are no experts when it comes to reviewing cars. I don't even look at reviews before I test drive a car. I decide that I like it enough to take it for a drive, and don't worry about what the auto rags think. I read the reviews afterwards out of interest, but they play absolutely no part in my decision to buy.
Comfort Access is BMW's version of Lexus' Smart Key. Key fob in your pocket, touch the door handle to unlock, press the start button wth foot on the brake to turn over the engine. It will be available in the new 3 series starting sometime in September. The main difference between the Lexus version and the BMW version is that the Lexus version will work.
Thanks for all the replies so far. After reading a bunch of info on the M35, I'm leaning that way. The only reason the scale hasn't completely tipped is because of the HUD. I absolutely love it, but I don't know that I can justify the extra cost of the 5 series to get all of the options that I would get on the M35x for around $49k. I was astonished to find that the M35x offers adaptive cruise control in the Journey/Tech package. The only minor quibbles I have about the M35 is the lack of rain sensing windshield and the lack of headlight washers. And the only major quibble is the HUD. I guess, contrary to most, I do like iDrive, but the controller in the M35 seems to be similar. I mean, in all fairness, the M35 is by far the better value in terms of technology/options and price, but I just can't seem to get over the HUD-bump, so to speak.
I did read on the e60.net forums that there are rumors that comfort access will be an option for the 5 series later in the year, but I think the price point would probably be around $1000.
I'm not elated that the RL price has dropped this far off msrp. Frankly I really am surprised this happened. I love the car and it is paid for, but I am not going to say everything is peachy keen and defend the reality of that price drop. The best thing that happened though was that I found a private buyer for my TL and he paid several M more than the dealer offered me on the trade.
I know this will not make you feel any better but the brand new GS 300 is currently experiencing a big price drop off MSRP right now. Based on the previous pricing history with the GS it will only get worse - or better if you want to buy one.
That old adage "Misery loves company" is appropiate for some folks but really I look at the RL for me/us and it suits my/our needs perfectly. Love the way it looks, handles, and rides. I have not had a hint of anything going wrong with this car. I started reading these foruns back in the fall and found them to be helpful in my decision making. There are a number of regular posters that bring a lot to the table. Bias is expected and the face of that can turn a guy's stomach in the beginning but you get used to it. Some people bring criticism in a way that you respect. Others may take fiendish delight in stomping on anothers comments without any tact. It all blends in. You ignore or consider the source but you read on. For me it doesn't seem addictive, but I can see where it could be. It's fun and really educational. HERES HOPING YOU LPS READERS HAVE A SAFE MEMORIAL DAY WEEKEND ...I'll be watching :shades: a parade in Elm Grove on Monday with my wife, the birthday girl!
drtravel: Can you elaborate on what you call the price drop of the GS300? Have you read something, or just where did you get this info? Is it just a couple of dealers you've checked with or is it top down from Lexus??
Sorry don't know about the GS 430 pricing although I hear it's inventory is much tighter than the GS 300's. I wasn't interested in it so I'm not on any e-mail deal lists for that car. If I'm going to spend $50K + for a Lexus it would be the LS anyway.
I posted the pricing e-mail I received from Lexus of Westminster in the Lexus GS forum - check it out for details. I consider their prices to be the highest anyone should pay - better deals should be had with a little work.
A great weekend to you as well, JJAcura! We'll be watching the Chicago White Sox kick some Anaheim.....oops.....California......oops.......Orange County.....oops......Los Angeles (huh?) Angel butt this weekend at the Cell. Much easier than rooting for those hapless Cubs.
Having previously owned a BMW 528i and after 6 weeks of test driving all major cars in the $40-55K range I bought an Infiniti M35x. While I had numerous and expensive problems with my 528i I enjoyed the ride, and found the new 5 series lacking.The features found on the M35x are amazing: adaptive AWD, 14 speaker bose 5.1 pro audio, heated and air conditioned seats, bluetooth phone connection,voice activacted control. nav system with birdseye view, 4 yr/60k warranty. Nothing come close to this car.
You get the LS. I get the GS. That's why they call you Dr. Travel and me Mr. Travel.
Actually for this forum I should be called Dr. Driver - Dr. Travel refers to my yearly overseas vacations. Anyhow I wanted a more sporty sedan - that's why I already bought an M. I had been a loyal Lexus owner since 1992 - before that Porsche.
I'm with you in that I don't really rely on the reviews to make a buying decision. I was impressed enough with what Infiniti had managed to do with the G35 and FX that I ordered the M last fall without a test drive or review.
The only reason that I mentioned the slalom test was that "Road & Track" felt compelled to mention it in their review. It seemed as if they made the comment to suggest that they did not achieve the results expected in the test.
Comments have been made regarding this particular comparison test that the M won merely because of the subjective factors. That is true but I think if one takes that approach it also fair to say that the reason the 545 finished as close as it did was because of subjective factors. While they lost big points in styling type issues they also won big points in the performance/driving area. Would this seem logical considering that the only fact based part of the test, actual performance figures, give the tiniest of edges to the M?
The remaining primary quantifiable numbers available to compare are price, residuals, safety and reliability. We know for a fact that the M easily wins the price battle and has an edge in residuals. Safety certainly is a strong point of any BMW and I think the M would be doing well to achieve the same results. Tests of recent model Infiniti's have shown that they have done quite well in this arena as well. As far as reliability goes, the M is new but I would have no reservations in betting anyone that it will be far more reliable than any BMW product at 1, 3 or 5 year reporting periods.
So after all that rambling the conclusion that one can safely reach is that everybody should buy the car they most enjoy. Reviews can be helpful in the sense that they may point someone to a car they may have not otherwise considered. Past that they are mainly a source of entertainment and debate.
"I see that the M's optional "Studio Surround" sound system includes an RCA input jack. Is such a jack also available on the GS & the RL?" Strangely, No. Except for BMW the car manufacturers in this class do not seem to have grasped the fact that so many of us now have all our music on iPods. (Virtually all of my stuff is recorded in Apple Lossless format, so it really is CD quality, and doesn't have all the "air" compressed out of it.) An input jack is standard on the new BMW's. To get the input jack on the M you have to order the full bore $7K Journey + Technology package. Neither the RL or GS offer one at any price. The question then becomes: "can I have someone add a jack after I buy the car?" The answer is "it depends" (and, it will probably void the warrantee on the audio system). I had a jack added to my 2005 Subaru Legacy GT Limited by Phantom Electronics in Thousand Oaks, CA. Since this was the first one the guy had done, he charged me $350. It is not perfect (between tracks with the volume turned up you can hear a little cross-talk from the radio). But it is vastly better than any other alternative. The service manager at the Inifinity dealer I have been talking to is pretty convinced that it would be easy to add a jack to the Journey package cars -- and probably to the base audio system as well. The Acura dealer in Albuquerque tells me that a dealer-installable add-on kit for the RL is coming. (He says that Acura goofed by not making it standard.) The Lexus dealer in Thousand Oaks, CA told me to go to Phantom. But they (Phantom) do not know if it is possible to hack the ML audio system. The Lexus dealer in Albuquerque just gave me a dumb look.
Thanks for the info. We've just started shopping for a replacement for my wife's '99 Lexus ES 300, which, unlike the top 3 candidates (M, GS & RL) on our list, is equipped with a cassette deck. Using a Radio Shack adapter, I can play my iPod through her car's sound system with acceptable results. But with the demise of the tape deck, that option is no longer available.
At least the RL's system will play MP3s. Since I've already ripped my entire music collection to MP3 format on my computer hard drive, burning an MP3 disc or 3 for car playback would take only a few minutes. It's unfortunate that the GS apparently doesn't allow that.
Interesting, I didnt know the RL had Mp3-CD capability. On the TL's Panasonic\ELS system, they specifically decided not to include it because they thought it wasnt "good enough". Apparently they forgot that 320kbps Mp3s are literally indistinguishable from CD. Personally I think its kind of arrogant and stupid to say "mp3s arent good enough for our system" when your listening room has 50-70db of constant backround noise. $4,000+ players from Denon or Lexicon will play them, but an Acura car stereo is just "too good". Whatever.
Lexusguy...you're back to rare form....I just received a complimentary disc the other day that I picked out from 5point1.com. They market the largest selection of DTS and other surround sound DVD-AUDIO Discs as well as CDs. I have never heard surround sound like this disc produced in my RL before. Incredible. I wish there was some way to let you hear it! I know you would appreciate it. check their website http://www.fortune3.com/boseacura/
That's interesting. Neither the GS brochure nor the web site mentions a tape deck. IIRC, all of the pictures of the GS interior in the brochure depict the optional ML sound system + nav.
Question for everyone on this topic. I have a Dell mp3 player and I'm wondering if there is anything different about the iPod's jacks that would make them exclusive to only iPods. Anyone know? I would think it would be pretty standard, but I'm not sure.
Acura Division set a new record with May sales rising 9.1% to 18,685 cars and light trucks, including a 225.7% increase of the RL sports luxury sedan with 1,404 units sold. Acura year-to-date sales of 86,201 rose 8.7% versus a year ago.
YTD through May, RL sales now stand at 6,867. Acura still has to hustle to reach its stated target of 20,000 annual sales. Sales tend to pick up in the warmer months, and although it's too early to say, appears they'll end the year somewhere in the ballpark of 18,000 unit sales.
Anybody have figures for Infiniti, Audi, BMW, and Mercedes?
Mercedes-Benz sales figures: Overall sales: 17,811, down 1.8% over May-04 E-class sales: 3,569 down 29% over May-04 and down 29% YTD over last year. Part of the reason may be the CLS is cannibalizing E-class sales. CLS sales were 1,550 for the May-05.
Audi Sales figures: OVerall sales: 6,455 for May-05, down 6.1% Audi A6 sales: 1,313 down 4.7% over May-04. It seems like the A6 is getting lost in the marketplace. Even the A4 isn't as strong a seller as it used to be in it's previous generation.
BMW sales figures: OVerall BMW sales dropped 5.7% to 23,048. This is probably largely due to the new 3-series production. The 5-series sold 3,611 in May-05 vs. 4,336 in May-04.
"Youch. Just 1300 A6s? That means they've lost to Acura for last place, not good for Audi. "
Yeah, as I said, not good for Audi. Their cars constantly get good ratings but it seems their sales, overall, are going down. The previous generation Audi A4 used to sell around 4K units a month, now they are down to about 2K/month. The A6 was pretty competitive with the Lexus GS in sales numbers around 1998 to 1999. Now that has fallen off also. They need that Q7 SUV ASAP.
Comments
I feel for you and would probably be bummed as well if I were in your shoes. Clearly sales are not what Acura had hoped they would be; the interest for the RL is not nearly as high as Acura had hoped for. Motor Trend magazine ran a poll in conjunction with a 6-sedan comparison. They asked readers "Which luxury sedan would you buy?" The RL finished dead last with 1% of the vote (171,368 votes to date)
Infiniti M35 - 64%
Audi A6 3.2 - 24%
Jaguar S-Type - 3%
BMW 530i - 2%
Cadillac STS V6 - 2%
Acura RL - 1%
However, since the RL lists for $49K, you could also argue that only a moron would vote to spend $55K since that is $6K over its list price.
When 2 models capture 88% of the total vote, and cars as diverse as the S-Type, 5-series, STS, and RL collectively garner only 8%, there is something wrong. It's so far off real world sales that you have to wonder about the validitiy of such a poll.
bartalk, FWIW, the Q45 is amazingly still around. I'm pretty sure Infiniti still wants to do another one. I seriously dont see the RL going away. Part of its problem is the platform just doesnt allow for enough size, which cant be fixed with a midcycle refresh. The styling part can though. I think if Acura makes some changes and makes the car more agressive like the TSX and TL, it may get more interest.
The M has no key. It's a push button starter. Key fob in your pocket. Or your cupholder/ashtray/keyfob slot.
I can't comment on the navigation or voice command of the 5 series, as I found the interior to be so ugly (imo) that I didn't bother to explore it much further than a basic test drive. Also, if you drive both, 525i vs M35, you will find that the M35 blows the 525i away....if that sort of thing is important to you.
The Smart Shopper board I linked for you is also a good resource, as I ~correctly~ noted in that post.
Key fob in your pocket, touch the door handle to unlock, press the start button wth foot on the brake to turn over the engine.
It will be available in the new 3 series starting sometime in September.
The main difference between the Lexus version and the BMW version is that the Lexus version will work.
I did read on the e60.net forums that there are rumors that comfort access will be an option for the 5 series later in the year, but I think the price point would probably be around $1000.
Any further comments will be appreciated.
I know this will not make you feel any better but the brand new GS 300 is currently experiencing a big price drop off MSRP right now. Based on the previous pricing history with the GS it will only get worse - or better if you want to buy one.
Thanks.
That's why they call you Dr. Travel and me Mr. Travel.
That's why they call you Dr. Travel and me Mr. Travel.
Actually for this forum I should be called Dr. Driver - Dr. Travel refers to my yearly overseas vacations. Anyhow I wanted a more sporty sedan - that's why I already bought an M. I had been a loyal Lexus owner since 1992 - before that Porsche.
Happy M(emorial) Day.
The only reason that I mentioned the slalom test was that "Road & Track" felt compelled to mention it in their review. It seemed as if they made the comment to suggest that they did not achieve the results expected in the test.
Comments have been made regarding this particular comparison test that the M won merely because of the subjective factors. That is true but I think if one takes that approach it also fair to say that the reason the 545 finished as close as it did was because of subjective factors. While they lost big points in styling type issues they also won big points in the performance/driving area. Would this seem logical considering that the only fact based part of the test, actual performance figures, give the tiniest of edges to the M?
The remaining primary quantifiable numbers available to compare are price, residuals, safety and reliability. We know for a fact that the M easily wins the price battle and has an edge in residuals. Safety certainly is a strong point of any BMW and I think the M would be doing well to achieve the same results. Tests of recent model Infiniti's have shown that they have done quite well in this arena as well. As far as reliability goes, the M is new but I would have no reservations in betting anyone that it will be far more reliable than any BMW product at 1, 3 or 5 year reporting periods.
So after all that rambling the conclusion that one can safely reach is that everybody should buy the car they most enjoy. Reviews can be helpful in the sense that they may point someone to a car they may have not otherwise considered. Past that they are mainly a source of entertainment and debate.
Amen, brother!
Martin
Strangely, No. Except for BMW the car manufacturers in this class do not seem to have grasped the fact that so many of us now have all our music on iPods. (Virtually all of my stuff is recorded in Apple Lossless format, so it really is CD quality, and doesn't have all the "air" compressed out of it.)
An input jack is standard on the new BMW's. To get the input jack on the M you have to order the full bore $7K Journey + Technology package. Neither the RL or GS offer one at any price.
The question then becomes: "can I have someone add a jack after I buy the car?" The answer is "it depends" (and, it will probably void the warrantee on the audio system).
I had a jack added to my 2005 Subaru Legacy GT Limited by Phantom Electronics in Thousand Oaks, CA. Since this was the first one the guy had done, he charged me $350. It is not perfect (between tracks with the volume turned up you can hear a little cross-talk from the radio). But it is vastly better than any other alternative.
The service manager at the Inifinity dealer I have been talking to is pretty convinced that it would be easy to add a jack to the Journey package cars -- and probably to the base audio system as well. The Acura dealer in Albuquerque tells me that a dealer-installable add-on kit for the RL is coming. (He says that Acura goofed by not making it standard.) The Lexus dealer in Thousand Oaks, CA told me to go to Phantom. But they (Phantom) do not know if it is possible to hack the ML audio system. The Lexus dealer in Albuquerque just gave me a dumb look.
At least the RL's system will play MP3s. Since I've already ripped my entire music collection to MP3 format on my computer hard drive, burning an MP3 disc or 3 for car playback would take only a few minutes. It's unfortunate that the GS apparently doesn't allow that.
FYI, my neighbor just got a new 2006 GS300 with the standard audio system and it HAS a cassette deck, in addition to the 6 CD-changer.
Martin
The new IS will play mp3 CD's, and it will have an input (iPOD) jack as well.
YTD through May, RL sales now stand at 6,867. Acura still has to hustle to reach its stated target of 20,000 annual sales. Sales tend to pick up in the warmer months, and although it's too early to say, appears they'll end the year somewhere in the ballpark of 18,000 unit sales.
Anybody have figures for Infiniti, Audi, BMW, and Mercedes?
Overall sales: 17,811, down 1.8% over May-04
E-class sales: 3,569 down 29% over May-04 and down 29% YTD over last year.
Part of the reason may be the CLS is cannibalizing E-class sales. CLS sales were 1,550 for the May-05.
Audi Sales figures:
OVerall sales: 6,455 for May-05, down 6.1%
Audi A6 sales: 1,313 down 4.7% over May-04.
It seems like the A6 is getting lost in the marketplace. Even the A4 isn't as strong a seller as it used to be in it's previous generation.
BMW sales figures:
OVerall BMW sales dropped 5.7% to 23,048. This is probably largely due to the new 3-series production.
The 5-series sold 3,611 in May-05 vs. 4,336 in May-04.
5 = 3,611
E = 3,569
STS = 3,346
GS = 3,141
M = 2,170
RL = 1,404
A6 = 1,313
Total = 18,554
April 2005 Sales:
5 = 4,571
E = 3,731
STS = 3,541
GS = 3,198
M = 2,288
A6 = 1,635
RL = 1,304
Total = 20,268
What's faster?: The E55 or the CLS 55?
Yeah, as I said, not good for Audi. Their cars constantly get good ratings but it seems their sales, overall, are going down. The previous generation Audi A4 used to sell around 4K units a month, now they are down to about 2K/month. The A6 was pretty competitive with the Lexus GS in sales numbers around 1998 to 1999. Now that has fallen off also. They need that Q7 SUV ASAP.