"Acura is the only one of all the Japanese High Line cars and most of the German cars that doesn't offer a V8 engine. Why don't we go there if you're really trying to defend the RL. Why is this the case?"
You'll notice that GS430 makes up a very small percentage of GS sales. Its always been that way. Most of the LPS cars have a vast majority of a 6 sold as the engine. Acura did the math and expected maybe 10% V8 RL sales. Thats 200 cars a year, and only if the RL was selling at the rate Acura projected. So far it seems to have only turned in one month of the sales numbers required to reach a 20,000\yr goal. They decided that the expense of developing a brand new V8 from scratch would not be worth it for 200 cars a month, so there's no V8. The other possibility is to slap IMA on the existing 3.5L V6, and I think thats pretty likely to happen. They are the only ones that can compete with the GS450h, and if the Lexus does well, its a pretty sure bet that Acura will make a RL hybrid. It would also cure the RL's low end torque problem.
Lemme guess, it was the NYT article, right? I've had to defend the 400h 3 times today already. NYT completely missed the entire point of the 400h. When Lexus announced that they were going to offer hybrids, they said that the Toyota versions would strive for the best mpg, and the Lexus versions would be designed to get as much extra power out of the electric motors as possible, with any increased mpg as sort of a bonus. The RX400h was NOT designed to get Prius-like mileage. Another total misconception is the supposed $10K premium for the 400h, which is completely incorrect. The BASE RX330 stickers at just below the $40K mark, where as the RX400 starts at $49K, so everybody assumes that the 400h costs $10K more. What they fail to mention is that the $39,990 RX330 has cloth seats, and NO options. Any Lexus dealer will tell you that you cant actually buy a total stripper RX330 like that, unless you special order it. The ones on the lot all cost at least $42K.
If you actually spend the time to build an RX at lexus.com (apparently NYT was too busy for that, or too biased to report anything that would dampen their argument as to why the 400h stinks) you'll notice that a completely loaded RX330 comes in around $46,5. The 400h comes with just about every RX330 option as standard equipment. The only option is the ML stereo, which brings it up to around $51. Therefore, the actual price for JUST the hybrid motor is $4500, not $10k. Factor in the $3500 tax credit for hybrids, and you can get into a RX400h for $1000 more than a similarly loaded 330. Try going to a MB dealer and telling them you want an ML500, but you're only willing to pay $1000 more than the ML350 costs. See what kind of reaction you get there.
"Acura did the math and expected maybe 10% V8 RL sales. Thats 200 cars a year, and only if the RL was selling at the rate Acura projected. So far it seems to have only turned in one month of the sales numbers required to reach a 20,000\yr goal."
The fire sale lease I got on the car more than pays for the gas. I imagine the mpg will improve after the break-in period is over. I'm getting 19mpg in mixed driving.
The problem is that 80mph with my 325i has effortlessly become 90mph with the 545i. I'm going to really have to watch it on the interstate.
What's really a lot of fun is all the redneck flat-bed truckers who come tearing down an adjacent lane with the sole mission of attempting to pass in front of me, giving it all they have, but you know what? I just give it a little touch on the accelerator and they simply can't do it. Regards, The Titanium Silver Streak
The new issue of Autoweek has a comparison of the M45 vs. GS430, it is their cover-story. The M45 beat the GS430 by a landslide. They thought that the VDIM system on the GS is too obtrusive and the both the brakes and steering are overboosted. They also complained about the transmission not knowing the proper gear to be in at the right times. They said that the GS has a good chassis, but Lexus uses too many electronics with ill effect to try and make a great car.
They liked the M45 in almost every respect. They liked the intelligent transmission, acceleration, brakes, handling, rear-active steer, and grip. They basically say that the Infiniti has sportyness built into the car without having to resort to what Lexus does (i.e., to many electronic nanny's).
In the last sentence they call the M45 a champion, and say, "Sayonara Lexus!"
I have to agree with the thoughts on the GS430. I thought the steering and brakes were both horrible. The steering was wishy-washy. No effort required. The brakes grabby to the extreme. The GS300 was actually better. I had no problem with the brakes and steering.
Watch out for Infiniti. They are definitely an exciting story.
"So, Mr. Customer, you vant to own a BMW, vundabar! You vill luv this automobile. Oh, you say the Japanese cars are more reliable? Huh, you vant a Japanese car, go buy one. You are obviously not the kind of customer we want as a BMW owner!"
The above contrived conversation between a salesman at BMW and a would-be BMW buyer is overstated, perhaps, but that is the impression I have always gotten when I enter a BMW dealership - cavalier, obnoxious, pompous, etc. At one dealer, I had to make an appointment for a demo drive - they weren't giving any the day I was there, they said. I was wearing shorts, unshaven, etc. At an Infiniti, Acura, Lexus dealership, that would not happen, in my opinion. Needless to say, I bought my BMW at another dealership.
By the way, I own a 2006 530i AND a 2006 M35 in my household. Both vehicles are outstanding, and no, I'm not obnoxious, cavalier, pompous, just practical.
So is it just a dealer, or a few dealers, or a corporate sponsored elitism? Do they have special training courses where they train the staff to elevate their noses a few degrees?
My infiniti salesman told me, at least in the Bay area, 80% of their customers are "beback" people-they see the vehicle in person, go home, do their research, then come back and buy. So no need to pressure the customer.
Does BMW have similar data, that describes no difference in buying pattern when their staff is pleasant and when they are rude and condescending? I have been reading a few articles online that describe the importance of marketing, and how companies are just now learning the true value of getting a new customer (who will return repeatedly) versus the cost of keeping a customer. There are actually metrics giving exact values for each of these!
You have a very lucky household! a 530 and an M35. I would guess no teenagers???
The new tax credit for the RX400h will probably be nowhere near $3500. Probably more like $1000. Also, with the full credit limited to 60,000 per company and phased out after that, the credit won't really be there for Toyota vehicles after a year and a half. Toyota currently sells about 14,000 hybrid vehicles per month, so they'll reach the 60,000 limit in 4 or 5 months after 01/01/20006.
You can get an RX330 for close to invoice, but expect to pay near MSRP for an RX400h. So the real world difference between comparably equipped RX330 and RX400h is more like $8000. Of course, the RX400h has better straight line power, which alone could be worth it for some people.
I'm interested to see how Lexus prices the GS450h. I'm thinking about the same as the soon to come GS460. The GS450h probably won't qualify for more than $1000 in tax credit. Not that buyers of $60,000 cars really need it.
Alas, my 05 545 was at the dealer for over a week for a "HVAC fan motor power cable not plugged into all the way". The worst part is that, it sat for a week waiting for a stupid part that it did not need to begin with. I had to wait 2 wks for a service appt and a loaner. Could have been worse; I shouldn't be complaining about a loose power cord. But it does put a bad taste in my mouth considering I've only had the car for 2 months.
I was so glad to have the car back that as soon as I got on the fwy, I opened it up to 100 mph going north on the 55.......for about 3 secs until I hit the 5 and came to a complete stop. This is the land of $3.00/gal gas, $900,000 3 bd homes and LOTS of traffic. Back to car discussions........
No teenagers any more, thank goodness. I knew my kids were gone when my insurance premiums on the cars dropped 80% - I guess they left and didn't tell me, but the premiums don't lie, lol! Just kidding.
I worked a few years for a Lexus Dealer (once I retired from school principalling) and their approach was, "THE CUSTOMER IS A GUEST, AND SHOULD BE TREATED AS SUCH!" When I came to the world's largest Infiniti Dealership, the motto was, "...treat each customer as you would want to be treated when you go out to buy a car!" But at BMW, the first two dealerships I worked with were snobbish, etc. The place where I finally bought my 06 530i in April was a dream come true. No hassle, no pressure, negotiations took 20 minutes, and I had my new car a few weeks later. Obviously, when I bought the M35 from my own dealership, there were no negotiations, for obvious reasons. But when the sales associates in the Infiniti, Lexus and Acura dealers I'm familiar with work with customers, it is, for the most part, more relaxed and laid back.
No, no more teenagers, no more high insurance premiums, just nice new cars in the garage who have not had a teenage driver abuse them. I guess in a few years, when I my grandsons are old enough, I'll break down and let them drive my cars, but at least I'll have a respite of 15-18 years. Definitely worth the wait, let me tell you.
Not having any kids yet, I listen to tales like yours intently. Hmmm...so you are saying that having a vasectomy may improve the reliability of a vehicle....?
Seriously-was this different attitude something from a higher level than the dealership? Do the Japanese manufacturers take more pains to instill this attitude? Maybe they won't give a franchise to someone without this approach?
And on a personal note-does the wife get the M, and you the 530i? Or do you switch occasionally? How much daily driving experience do you have with each, and what do you notice from daily driving? If you had to pick one for fun on a weekend, which would it be?
"...Therefore, the actual price for JUST the hybrid motor is $4500, not $10k. Factor in the $3500 tax credit for hybrids, and you can get into a RX400h for $1000 more than a similarly loaded 330. "
Just to nitpick, the $3,500 tax credit is a tax DEDUCTION. Assuming a 30% tax bracket that means it's worth just over $1,000. I agree with your point that the hybrid motor is much cheaper than $10K, but it is more like $3,500 taking into account the tax credit.
The new hybrid tax incentive is a credit, not a deduction. It is available up to $3400. But the RX400h won't qualify for anywhere near the full amount.
The GS450h won't qualify for anywhere near the full amount either. And by the middle of 2007, Toyota hybrids will NOT qualify for ANY tax credits.
No, I'm not saying having a vasectomy will improve reliability of a vehicle, only the insurance premiums!
I know that if you own a dealership, and your CSI is marginal at best, you won't get another franchise from the Japanese manufacturer. The Japanese are intent on complete customer satisfaction and customer treatment. You can tell by the differences in their CSI surveys.
When I got my BMW, I was sent a survey with 5 questions on it. When I got my Infiniti, it had 35 questions on it. The questions on the BMW survey were general and broad. The questions on the Infiniti survey were specific and to the point for each area scored.
As for which vehicle is mine, it's the BMW 530i. I do drive the M35 occasionally, but prefer the Bimmer, not from a "status" standpoint, but rather from a practical one - it's more comfortable for "me" and the M35 is not.
Both vehicles are superior in every way imaginable. Consumer Reports wasn't wrong when it rated the M35 best 4-door sedan, sport or luxury. It's refined, reliable, and practical. The BMW is more fun to drive, handles better, and is a bit roomer inside for me.
If I had to pick a vehicle for a weekend trip, it would be the BMW - smoother road handling, handles bumps better, and drives like a dream. For driving around town, I prefer the M35 - more spirited - uses regular fuel instead of premium.
I also prefer the BMW's bluetooth as it downloads your entire phonebook from your cell phone. The M does not, you have to manually input all the numbers and names.
But to be honest, both are great luxury performance vehicles and both are hot cars.
Regarding the CSI, I had a recent interesting experience with one of the BMW dealers in SF:
I have had the two-year old car in either 14 or 15 times. At first, I would get a call from their third-party satisfaction evaluator. However, after a few not so great ratings, I never got another call. I would guess the last eight times I had service, I got no follow-up.
Through a little gentle investigation, I found that the dealer had my contact information incorrectly listed. The funny things are:
1. They had the contact info correct for the first four monhts/six visits. 2. The address had changed both in street number and street name, likely not a simple typo 3. The phone number had two digits changed, likely not a simple typo 4. The second phone number had two digits changed, likely not a simple typo
So, my suspicion is that, instead of providing appropriate service, they found the more efficient method of preventing my CSI rating from affecting their numbers.
What do you think? What would you do? I have already been in touch with the BMW NA Customer Relations Mgr, who has admitted that this SF BMW dealer is always a thorn in their side, but also tells me BMW has no control over individual dealers.
I don't think we need to make this political -- we may make this national and "thank" other countries for industrializing, becoming wealthy enough to afford cars, etc. We may also thank rickety old refineries and the companies that "could have" built more capacity for NOT doing so (perhaps the lawyers could be "thanked" for making doing so more risky.)
We could also thank ourselves, for if we didn't have as much demand, price would probably lower.
I didn't mean to start a political debate.
If we would run out of the stuff altogether due to consumption, I would really be hard pressed to place blame on any country, entity or politician.
Indeed, to close this portion out -- I believe that at a sustained price average for regular of $3.40 we would be at 98% of the "real price" that gasoline was during the Carter administration. And, I, for one, don't blame him either.
Rather my point was to wonder out loud about the future of LPS cars (and cars in general) since often LPS cars lead in the innovation of "stuff" (features, options, technologies, etc.) perhaps to ask if we will be seeing future cars and their propulsion mechanisms coming out first as luxury items (in LPS cars for example).
If more demand is made on "oil" by the users of this stuff, well, eventually there will have to be a change (and not a minute before, I'd wager.)
I love my A6 w/3.2 V6, for its ability (in THIS HEAT) to sip gas, keep me cool, entertain me with an excellent sound system all whilst I am cruising along at about 80 miles per. Round trip to Columbus from Cincinnati netted an indicated MGP of 26+ (and, shhhh, we were really bookin')! :shades:
bzzzzt $4,500 more for an RX440 nice try maybe on paper but not in real life. My dad and my boss both bought one at MSRP plus they had to take the overpriced rim to the tune of about $51k and yes my wifes loaded AWD RX330 stick at I believe $48.5 BUT we paid $42.5 for that car when we actually bought it. so you are back to and 8k difference. As far as the tax credit I'm betting the RX400 doesn't qualify for the full $3k. It doesn't qualify for the carpool lanes here in CA. I understand the point of the RX400 but given it's current supply the extra cost will not be recovered in mileage in a long time if ever.
Maybe the next generation or when production keeps up with demand and we can get the hybrids for close to invoice but right now purchasing an RX400 makes sense from a statement/ecological standpoint but not a cost standpoint.
Heck I bet its probably better to buy an RX330 and cut a check to the Sierra club for $5k.
"When I got my BMW, I was sent a survey with 5 questions on it. When I got my Infiniti, it had 35 questions on it."
That's a good point. I throw away surveys with more than 5 questions. Maybe BMW realizes that.
I also agree Lexus works hard at customer satisfaction, but you are generalizing about all BMW dealers. Mine wants to earn my business, not pretend they are doing me a favor by selling me a car. BMW or not, I would drive away (fast) from any dealer with that attitude.
Interestingly enough I encountered that attitude from a number of car dealers recently. The one that really surprised me with Lexus like customer service though was Cadillac.
The one dealer that I couldn't understand that attitutude coming from though was Honda.
We're wandering all over the place here. Let's stick with the specific luxury performance sedans that are our subject and leave the dealer and political commentary out, okay?
Have you seen the latest "2005 All-Wheel-Drive Luxury Sport Sedan Comparison Test"? What do you think?
Since I just got back from San Remo, Italy, I thought I'd fill everybody in on what the Europeans are driving at the mo. It looked like BMW was in first place in terms of just what I saw on the street, with Audi and MB too close to call for 2nd\3rd. In terms of specific LPS cars, plenty of E's (obviously) but a lot more 5s around here at least than 2005+ A6s. I can only remember seeing a small number of them. Lexus doesnt have much of any presence here (again, obviously), but I did see one or two LS430s, and almost as many RX330s (still 300 here) as X5s, which was surprising. The absolute #1 luxury SUV by a country mile though was the Cayenne, there was one litterally at every street corner. I'm not sure how the IS will do, but the RX seems to finally be gaining at least a small foothold, at least in the Monaco\Italian Rivera area.
Yes, it was a very nice vacation overall. American cars were very few and far between. Unlike London, there were almost no Fords or Opels that I can remember. The only American brand I saw was Chrysler - the occasional Crossfire, some T&C minivans, and a 300C wagon, aka Dodge Magnum. Porsche was everywhere though, lots of Boxsters and no less than two 911 Turbos at my hotel. As I said before, you couldn't throw a rock without hitting a Cayenne S. Generally the cars were overwhelmingly German, with just the occasional Lexus, Rover, Peugot\Citroen, or Fiat AG. The most unique vehicle was a lone Infiniti FX35.
Considering you were in San Remo, surprised to read that you didn't see more Alfa's or Fiats. In Sept I'll be going to Milan and Venice. Going to the Grand Prix race in Milan, which I can't wait to experience (should be better than the one in Indianapolis...ha). I'll have to wear my Honda baseball cap to that one!
How did you find the security at the airports overseas? Trying to get geared up for some delays and searches when I am there. Did you fly Alitalia and if yes, how did you find their service? That's what we're taking in Sept.
I was in Berlin and Munich last fall, and it's always interesting to see the occasional Chrysler minivan there. I also saw more than a few Jeep Grand Cherokees. But the most striking thing (compared to the US) was to see so many small Audis (A2/A3), Smart cars, and small BMWs. Most with diesel engines, to boot. Also quite a few BMW 5-series and MB E-classes with diesel engines.
And, of course, far more manual trannys. I sure wish American drivers discovered the benefits of shifting for themselves.
It would be easy for someone to read your post as if Consumer Reports indicated that the 545i was flawless, that iDrive was flawless (what a ..... joke that would be) and the car was a 'rocket on wheels.'
I think you ought to caveat your post with capital, bold IMHO's most of the time, since your experience is fairly unique wrt the 545 and BMWs in general.
Since when is my wonderful experience with the 545i and BMW's in general UNIQUE? Go to the forums, Bimmerfest.com and E60.net and you will find HUNDREDS of ecstatic people who drive 545i's and report flawless performance and trouble-free feed-back from the terrific iDrive that a 7 year old can figure out in 5 minutes.
I suppose all those folks lexusguy saw in Europe OVERWHELMINGLY driving BMW's also don't know what they are talking about.
The 545i is indeed a rocket on wheels.
Won't you join me in a toast to the greatest luxury performance sedan in the $60,000 range?
The car according to Road & Track "as a pure sports sedan...takes top honors. It remain's the true driver's car, delivering the tightest handling, the most direct feedback and the biggest smiles."
Ladies and gentleman, may I present to you the 2005 BMW 545i.
Well, my brother in law is in the market for a new car. He presently is leasing a 2002 GS 300. He likes it a lot. So, naturally, we drove the Lexus GS 300 today first. I have to admit, I was more impressed with the car than I thought I would be. The only thing that didn't do it for me was that tight opening in trunk...very narrow and would be hard to fit a real size suitcase in trunk. Also, no full size spare. I did like the brushed aluminum gauges with the bright white needles. I would like to see a type of MMI like Audi's or I-Drive in a Lexus. They have way too many buttons. Also, kind of weird to see a cassette player in a car. Next, we went to the Infiniti dealer. Well, the salesman approached us as we were walking up to the showroom. A kid ( no more than 23-25) in a t-shirt asking if we needed help. Well, we were comparing apples to apples so we told him we wanted to drive a base M35...no packages other than the base...as it would look the same inside and given it wasn't a Sport model, probably drive the same way too. Well, it does have a nice growl to the engine but that was it. I drove the car. What a jerky acceleration. Yes, it was quick but so are BMW's and they don't drive like this car. And, the whole table in center of dash...I didn't know whether to drive the car or eat my lunch off of it. The wood in this car is the worst looking I have ever seen in any automobile. Even the Q45 has the high gloss polished wood inside. It looks cheap in the M35 and felt like contact paper glued onto plastic. I did like the metal looking interior on Sport model. The whole time I was in this car, I couldn't help but think this car was invented for one thing and one thing only...to compete with BMW's. It seemed they tried to hard to go after Lexus' market. And, I'm sure a lot of would be Lexus drivers may have switched over to Infiniti. But just as I love driving the Audi I lease, I don't think I would want to buy one. Well, this is the same feeling I got in the Infiniti. Great to go ZOOM...but that's it! I couldn't help but notice cheap materials all over this car. Why didn't they put the little buttons to lock the doors outside on the car on all four doors, not just the front doors. Even the little vents on backseat air conditioning are plasticky. On the Audi, all vents have some sort of metal look to them...even if it's not really metal, it looks finished. The Lexus and Audi and many other fine cars have no mouldings screwing up the lines of the car. The M35 felt it necessary to put these on the sides. I know what you're thinking...PROTECTION...get real...those little ugly strips of plastic on side of the car aren't preventing any dings or dents...just looking ugly and dated. The Lexus may not be as quick from a dead stop as the Infiniti, but if I was going to buy one, my money would go to Lexus...they have already proved they have good resale and a good overall product. And, as I drove us home in my 2005 A6 3.2, I couldn't help think to myself that this is the car I'm glad I got!
I enjoy your spirit but before you bring back "The Gong Show" and get yourself all excited and wet about the 545i cool your jets for a minute and read what our folks at Edmunds are saying about the RL in the 2005 AWD Luxury Sport Sedan Comparison Test. "If there's a more well rounded all-wheel drive luxury sport sedan than the RL, we haven't driven it." Check it out:
Next time around (in about 2 years), I will be spending much more time driving the Infiniti M. It has come in first in many comparos and the fact that CR raved that the M is now their favorite sedan speaks volumes to me.
I am a first-time BMW owner (after owning Toyotas, Mercedes, and Volvo), and I have had a black/grey BMW 530xi for a just three weeks now. In spite of an initial issue that needed the iDrive screen to be replaced during the first week of ownership, I love this car. I have no prejudices against other makes, and I actually think the M35x was a close second to the 530xi for me, but I am VERY HAPPY that I chose the 530xi. Here are my initial impressions:
- The exterior gets me excited just walking up to the car. - I love the spartan, uncluttered interior (unlike the oppressive interior of the M). - I LOVE the way it drives with my manual transmission. - The Head-Up Display is awesome. - Bluetooth works flawlessly, AND uploads my address book. - The Logic7 stereo is great to my non-expert ears. - iDrive is easy to get used too, and then it grows on you (the uncluttered interior is actually very pleasing after a while). - The interior space is awesome -- much bigger on the inside than most other sedans. - The new 255 HP engine is fantastic -- and I am THRILLED that I get close to 30 mpg on the highway in 6th gear. That's worth a LOT to me -- and much better than the 22-25 MPG of the Infiniti M35x that my friend has.
To each his own, but I think the sentence at the end of the Edmunds comparison (they gave the 530xi 4th place out of five) says it all:
"If you consider road feel luxurious, the 2006 BMW 530xi is the best car here."
I DO consider road feel to be extremely important (my wife and I get motion sick very quickly in floaty cars like the Lexus) AND it's PERFECTLY FINE by me if the 530xi costs $10K more than the competition -- it is worth it to the people who buy it.
I ABSOLUTELY do not condone high-handed dealer behavior, but that happens with every manufacturer (you should see Toyota!), and please don't slam me for my personal opinions above -- I am just sharing them with you.
I don't know when my next time around will be but probably before the RL goes V-8 in 2011 and I might test some other vehicles in this forum. Trying to keep an open mind these days.
"At the time. . ." my two choices were the Audi A6 3.2 and the Infiniti M35X. A couple of distant choices included the Acura RL, BMW 5(x only) and even a Chrysler 300C AWD. The timing was such that I was unable to get something that I really wanted (a FEATURE that I really wanted to clarify) and that is a manual transmission. Also "at the time" the 530x was "not quite" for sale in the US.
I, after a long story that I will not repeat again, ended up with the Audi A6 3.2 with the 6spd tiptronic (with regular and sport mode auto shift, too.)
With some 3,000+ miles on my Audi, I am very pleased. Two weeks ago I took at new 530xi out for a test drive. The ONLY version they inventory (at Ohio's largest BMW dealer) are automatics ("we will, from time to time, have a stick. . .we do not usually order either stick or sport package equipped versions as they do not sell well.")
The BMW 530xi was very nice -- but with the automatic it was, basically, emasculated (just like my Audi). Now, having driven a 225HP 530i with an auto, my wife's X3 3.0 (225HP) with a stick, etc -- the 530xi was plenty peppy (the term I use is "adequate.") But my A6 seems close enough to make the BMW NOT seem all that special.
However, the very fact that the BMW 530xi can be had with a stick shift would make me seriously consider putting the Bimmer at the top of my shopping list. For, even though I damn with faint praise ("adequate" engine power, etc.), I can by imagination extrapolate that the 530xi would be THE performer of this group when equipped with the 6speed manual.
I love my A6 3.2, but I am more than a little envious that ONE LPS car, at least, can be had with a proper transmission.
Congratulations on your new BMW 530xi -- I look forward to you regaling us with your experiences with this car. BTW, iDrive and MMI (I have the latter) are not as bad as they are cracked up to be. But still they seem to be on these cars somewhat because "they can be" on these cars.
I don't know if I can honestly say I am better off with MMI than I would be without it -- my main reason for actually LIKING MMI is the fact that my Navigation, Radio/Sound system and Telephone are all voice controlled with the Voice Command option for MMI.
Very biased opinion I found the report to be heavily weighted towards the subjective. The text strongly hinted at looks being more important than performance. This is an LPS forum, where the L stands for Luxury and not looks
I have been soundly beat down over in the RL forum for daring to suggest to that Consumer Reports is a reliable and useful automoble information source (of course over in the RL forum they have to trash all comparos except Edmunds). The main argument against CR seems to be that they have very poor test facilities and very poor testers relative to EVERY other car resource. So I have a question; how does one go about investigating just how good these car mags are at testing cars? How can I find out about Road & Tracks faciliites and their engineers? Ditto Car & Driver? Or even Edmunds? After a quick look at their respective websites I could not find links giving information regarding their test facilites or the bios of who does the tests. On the other hand CR makes this info readily available on their website.
Often on this site comparos are referred to and discussed. What makes a comparo worthy of discussion? Are any better than others (other than the one picking your car)? Does one magazine have a superior testing facility than the orhers? I'm sure the other mags have a test track, but its not obvious on their websites!
Comments
You'll notice that GS430 makes up a very small percentage of GS sales. Its always been that way. Most of the LPS cars have a vast majority of a 6 sold as the engine. Acura did the math and expected maybe 10% V8 RL sales. Thats 200 cars a year, and only if the RL was selling at the rate Acura projected. So far it seems to have only turned in one month of the sales numbers required to reach a 20,000\yr goal. They decided that the expense of developing a brand new V8 from scratch would not be worth it for 200 cars a month, so there's no V8. The other possibility is to slap IMA on the existing 3.5L V6, and I think thats pretty likely to happen. They are the only ones that can compete with the GS450h, and if the Lexus does well, its a pretty sure bet that Acura will make a RL hybrid. It would also cure the RL's low end torque problem.
If you actually spend the time to build an RX at lexus.com (apparently NYT was too busy for that, or too biased to report anything that would dampen their argument as to why the 400h stinks) you'll notice that a completely loaded RX330 comes in around $46,5. The 400h comes with just about every RX330 option as standard equipment. The only option is the ML stereo, which brings it up to around $51. Therefore, the actual price for JUST the hybrid motor is $4500, not $10k. Factor in the $3500 tax credit for hybrids, and you can get into a RX400h for $1000 more than a similarly loaded 330. Try going to a MB dealer and telling them you want an ML500, but you're only willing to pay $1000 more than the ML350 costs. See what kind of reaction you get there.
My 10% of 20,000 math equals 2,000 :P
The problem is that 80mph with my 325i has effortlessly become 90mph with the 545i.
I'm going to really have to watch it on the interstate.
What's really a lot of fun is all the redneck flat-bed truckers who come tearing down an adjacent lane with the sole mission of attempting to pass in front of me, giving it all they have, but you know what? I just give it a little touch on the accelerator and they simply can't do it.
Regards,
The Titanium Silver Streak
They liked the M45 in almost every respect. They liked the intelligent transmission, acceleration, brakes, handling, rear-active steer, and grip. They basically say that the Infiniti has sportyness built into the car without having to resort to what Lexus does (i.e., to many electronic nanny's).
In the last sentence they call the M45 a champion, and say, "Sayonara Lexus!"
Wow, not where I live. The three bedroom house next door just went for $750,000.
The only time I rode in an e60 530, I found the hesitation on acceleration to be very annoying. How's yours?
The steering was wishy-washy. No effort required. The brakes grabby to the extreme.
The GS300 was actually better. I had no problem with the brakes and steering.
Watch out for Infiniti. They are definitely an exciting story.
"So, Mr. Customer, you vant to own a BMW, vundabar! You vill luv this automobile. Oh, you say the Japanese cars are more reliable? Huh, you vant a Japanese car, go buy one. You are obviously not the kind of customer we want as a BMW owner!"
The above contrived conversation between a salesman at BMW and a would-be BMW buyer is overstated, perhaps, but that is the impression I have always gotten when I enter a BMW dealership - cavalier, obnoxious, pompous, etc. At one dealer, I had to make an appointment for a demo drive - they weren't giving any the day I was there, they said. I was wearing shorts, unshaven, etc. At an Infiniti, Acura, Lexus dealership, that would not happen, in my opinion. Needless to say, I bought my BMW at another dealership.
By the way, I own a 2006 530i AND a 2006 M35 in my household. Both vehicles are outstanding, and no, I'm not obnoxious, cavalier, pompous, just practical.
"Ahso, our vehicles come as they are, you cannot choose any options"
Like the conversation between a mythical salesperson and a person buying an RL. Come back next week for a test drive.
There are good dealers and bad dealers across the board.
I suggest we talk about cars...
regards,
kyfdx
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Too good!
So is it just a dealer, or a few dealers, or a corporate sponsored elitism? Do they have special training courses where they train the staff to elevate their noses a few degrees?
My infiniti salesman told me, at least in the Bay area, 80% of their customers are "beback" people-they see the vehicle in person, go home, do their research, then come back and buy. So no need to pressure the customer.
Does BMW have similar data, that describes no difference in buying pattern when their staff is pleasant and when they are rude and condescending? I have been reading a few articles online that describe the importance of marketing, and how companies are just now learning the true value of getting a new customer (who will return repeatedly) versus the cost of keeping a customer. There are actually metrics giving exact values for each of these!
You have a very lucky household! a 530 and an M35. I would guess no teenagers???
The new tax credit for the RX400h will probably be nowhere near $3500. Probably more like $1000. Also, with the full credit limited to 60,000 per company and phased out after that, the credit won't really be there for Toyota vehicles after a year and a half. Toyota currently sells about 14,000 hybrid vehicles per month, so they'll reach the 60,000 limit in 4 or 5 months after 01/01/20006.
You can get an RX330 for close to invoice, but expect to pay near MSRP for an RX400h. So the real world difference between comparably equipped RX330 and RX400h is more like $8000. Of course, the RX400h has better straight line power, which alone could be worth it for some people.
I'm interested to see how Lexus prices the GS450h. I'm thinking about the same as the soon to come GS460. The GS450h probably won't qualify for more than $1000 in tax credit. Not that buyers of $60,000 cars really need it.
I was so glad to have the car back that as soon as I got on the fwy, I opened it up to 100 mph going north on the 55.......for about 3 secs until I hit the 5 and came to a complete stop. This is the land of $3.00/gal gas, $900,000 3 bd homes and LOTS of traffic. Back to car discussions........
I worked a few years for a Lexus Dealer (once I retired from school principalling) and their approach was, "THE CUSTOMER IS A GUEST, AND SHOULD BE TREATED AS SUCH!" When I came to the world's largest Infiniti Dealership, the motto was, "...treat each customer as you would want to be treated when you go out to buy a car!" But at BMW, the first two dealerships I worked with were snobbish, etc. The place where I finally bought my 06 530i in April was a dream come true. No hassle, no pressure, negotiations took 20 minutes, and I had my new car a few weeks later. Obviously, when I bought the M35 from my own dealership, there were no negotiations, for obvious reasons. But when the sales associates in the Infiniti, Lexus and Acura dealers I'm familiar with work with customers, it is, for the most part, more relaxed and laid back.
No, no more teenagers, no more high insurance premiums, just nice new cars in the garage who have not had a teenage driver abuse them. I guess in a few years, when I my grandsons are old enough, I'll break down and let them drive my cars, but at least I'll have a respite of 15-18 years. Definitely worth the wait, let me tell you.
Not having any kids yet, I listen to tales like yours intently. Hmmm...so you are saying that having a vasectomy may improve the reliability of a vehicle....?
Seriously-was this different attitude something from a higher level than the dealership? Do the Japanese manufacturers take more pains to instill this attitude? Maybe they won't give a franchise to someone without this approach?
And on a personal note-does the wife get the M, and you the 530i? Or do you switch occasionally? How much daily driving experience do you have with each, and what do you notice from daily driving? If you had to pick one for fun on a weekend, which would it be?
Cheers!
Just to nitpick, the $3,500 tax credit is a tax DEDUCTION. Assuming a 30% tax bracket that means it's worth just over $1,000. I agree with your point that the hybrid motor is much cheaper than $10K, but it is more like $3,500 taking into account the tax credit.
The new hybrid tax incentive is a credit, not a deduction. It is available up to $3400. But the RX400h won't qualify for anywhere near the full amount.
The GS450h won't qualify for anywhere near the full amount either. And by the middle of 2007, Toyota hybrids will NOT qualify for ANY tax credits.
I know that if you own a dealership, and your CSI is marginal at best, you won't get another franchise from the Japanese manufacturer. The Japanese are intent on complete customer satisfaction and customer treatment. You can tell by the differences in their CSI surveys.
When I got my BMW, I was sent a survey with 5 questions on it. When I got my Infiniti, it had 35 questions on it. The questions on the BMW survey were general and broad. The questions on the Infiniti survey were specific and to the point for each area scored.
As for which vehicle is mine, it's the BMW 530i. I do drive the M35 occasionally, but prefer the Bimmer, not from a "status" standpoint, but rather from a practical one - it's more comfortable for "me" and the M35 is not.
Both vehicles are superior in every way imaginable. Consumer Reports wasn't wrong when it rated the M35 best 4-door sedan, sport or luxury. It's refined, reliable, and practical. The BMW is more fun to drive, handles better, and is a bit roomer inside for me.
If I had to pick a vehicle for a weekend trip, it would be the BMW - smoother road handling, handles bumps better, and drives like a dream. For driving around town, I prefer the M35 - more spirited - uses regular fuel instead of premium.
I also prefer the BMW's bluetooth as it downloads your entire phonebook from your cell phone. The M does not, you have to manually input all the numbers and names.
But to be honest, both are great luxury performance vehicles and both are hot cars.
Hope the above helped a bit.
Regarding the CSI, I had a recent interesting experience with one of the BMW dealers in SF:
I have had the two-year old car in either 14 or 15 times. At first, I would get a call from their third-party satisfaction evaluator. However, after a few not so great ratings, I never got another call. I would guess the last eight times I had service, I got no follow-up.
Through a little gentle investigation, I found that the dealer had my contact information incorrectly listed. The funny things are:
1. They had the contact info correct for the first four monhts/six visits.
2. The address had changed both in street number and street name, likely not a simple typo
3. The phone number had two digits changed, likely not a simple typo
4. The second phone number had two digits changed, likely not a simple typo
So, my suspicion is that, instead of providing appropriate service, they found the more efficient method of preventing my CSI rating from affecting their numbers.
What do you think? What would you do? I have already been in touch with the BMW NA Customer Relations Mgr, who has admitted that this SF BMW dealer is always a thorn in their side, but also tells me BMW has no control over individual dealers.
What should I believe?
We could also thank ourselves, for if we didn't have as much demand, price would probably lower.
I didn't mean to start a political debate.
If we would run out of the stuff altogether due to consumption, I would really be hard pressed to place blame on any country, entity or politician.
Indeed, to close this portion out -- I believe that at a sustained price average for regular of $3.40 we would be at 98% of the "real price" that gasoline was during the Carter administration. And, I, for one, don't blame him either.
Rather my point was to wonder out loud about the future of LPS cars (and cars in general) since often LPS cars lead in the innovation of "stuff" (features, options, technologies, etc.) perhaps to ask if we will be seeing future cars and their propulsion mechanisms coming out first as luxury items (in LPS cars for example).
If more demand is made on "oil" by the users of this stuff, well, eventually there will have to be a change (and not a minute before, I'd wager.)
I love my A6 w/3.2 V6, for its ability (in THIS HEAT) to sip gas, keep me cool, entertain me with an excellent sound system all whilst I am cruising along at about 80 miles per. Round trip to Columbus from Cincinnati netted an indicated MGP of 26+ (and, shhhh, we were really bookin')! :shades:
"Peak gas and oil"
!
Maybe the next generation or when production keeps up with demand and we can get the hybrids for close to invoice but right now purchasing an RX400 makes sense from a statement/ecological standpoint but not a cost standpoint.
Heck I bet its probably better to buy an RX330 and cut a check to the Sierra club for $5k.
That's a good point. I throw away surveys with more than 5 questions. Maybe BMW realizes that.
I also agree Lexus works hard at customer satisfaction, but you are generalizing about all BMW dealers. Mine wants to earn my business, not pretend they are doing me a favor by selling me a car. BMW or not, I would drive away (fast) from any dealer with that attitude.
Interestingly enough I encountered that attitude from a number of car dealers recently. The one that really surprised me with Lexus like customer service though was Cadillac.
The one dealer that I couldn't understand that attitutude coming from though was Honda.
I am not a big fan of the RL exterior, but I saw light blue RL on the street yesterday and thought it was a knock out, it was very elegant looking.
Have you seen the latest "2005 All-Wheel-Drive Luxury Sport Sedan Comparison Test"? What do you think?
The results of that comparison test lends more credibility to a great car...thanks for sharing that Pat.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=106555
Considering you were in San Remo, surprised to read that you didn't see more Alfa's or Fiats. In Sept I'll be going to Milan and Venice. Going to the Grand Prix race in Milan, which I can't wait to experience (should be better than the one in Indianapolis...ha). I'll have to wear my Honda baseball cap to that one!
How did you find the security at the airports overseas? Trying to get geared up for some delays and searches when I am there. Did you fly Alitalia and if yes, how did you find their service? That's what we're taking in Sept.
I was in Berlin and Munich last fall, and it's always interesting to see the occasional Chrysler minivan there. I also saw more than a few Jeep Grand Cherokees. But the most striking thing (compared to the US) was to see so many small Audis (A2/A3), Smart cars, and small BMWs. Most with diesel engines, to boot. Also quite a few BMW 5-series and MB E-classes with diesel engines.
And, of course, far more manual trannys. I sure wish American drivers discovered the benefits of shifting for themselves.
I think you ought to caveat your post with capital, bold IMHO's most of the time, since your experience is fairly unique wrt the 545 and BMWs in general.
Go to the forums, Bimmerfest.com and E60.net and you will find HUNDREDS of ecstatic people who drive 545i's and report flawless performance and trouble-free feed-back from the terrific iDrive that a 7 year old can figure out in 5 minutes.
I suppose all those folks lexusguy saw in Europe OVERWHELMINGLY driving BMW's also don't know what they are talking about.
The 545i is indeed a rocket on wheels.
Won't you join me in a toast to the greatest luxury performance sedan in the $60,000 range?
The car according to Road & Track "as a pure sports sedan...takes top honors. It remain's the true driver's car, delivering the tightest handling, the most direct feedback and the biggest smiles."
Ladies and gentleman, may I present to you the 2005 BMW 545i.
Cheers and big smiles.
hpowders
Next, we went to the Infiniti dealer. Well, the salesman approached us as we were walking up to the showroom. A kid ( no more than 23-25) in a t-shirt asking if we needed help. Well, we were comparing apples to apples so we told him we wanted to drive a base M35...no packages other than the base...as it would look the same inside and given it wasn't a Sport model, probably drive the same way too. Well, it does have a nice growl to the engine but that was it. I drove the car. What a jerky acceleration. Yes, it was quick but so are BMW's and they don't drive like this car. And, the whole table in center of dash...I didn't know whether to drive the car or eat my lunch off of it. The wood in this car is the worst looking I have ever seen in any automobile. Even the Q45 has the high gloss polished wood inside. It looks cheap in the M35 and felt like contact paper glued onto plastic. I did like the metal looking interior on Sport model. The whole time I was in this car, I couldn't help but think this car was invented for one thing and one thing only...to compete with BMW's. It seemed they tried to hard to go after Lexus' market. And, I'm sure a lot of would be Lexus drivers may have switched over to Infiniti. But just as I love driving the Audi I lease, I don't think I would want to buy one. Well, this is the same feeling I got in the Infiniti. Great to go ZOOM...but that's it! I couldn't help but notice cheap materials all over this car. Why didn't they put the little buttons to lock the doors outside on the car on all four doors, not just the front doors. Even the little vents on backseat air conditioning are plasticky. On the Audi, all vents have some sort of metal look to them...even if it's not really metal, it looks finished. The Lexus and Audi and many other fine cars have no mouldings screwing up the lines of the car. The M35 felt it necessary to put these on the sides. I know what you're thinking...PROTECTION...get real...those little ugly strips of plastic on side of the car aren't preventing any dings or dents...just looking ugly and dated. The Lexus may not be as quick from a dead stop as the Infiniti, but if I was going to buy one, my money would go to Lexus...they have already proved they have good resale and a good overall product. And, as I drove us home in my 2005 A6 3.2, I couldn't help think to myself that this is the car I'm glad I got!
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=106555
In truth, nobody would go wrong with purchasing or leasing any of the LPS's being discussed here.
If for some reason I couldn't have a 545i and had an RL instead, I'm sure I would like it too.
I wouldn't turn down any of these LPS's. I just happen to prefer BMW.
It has come in first in many comparos and the fact that CR raved that the M is now their favorite sedan speaks volumes to me.
- The exterior gets me excited just walking up to the car.
- I love the spartan, uncluttered interior (unlike the oppressive interior of the M).
- I LOVE the way it drives with my manual transmission.
- The Head-Up Display is awesome.
- Bluetooth works flawlessly, AND uploads my address book.
- The Logic7 stereo is great to my non-expert ears.
- iDrive is easy to get used too, and then it grows on you (the uncluttered interior is actually very pleasing after a while).
- The interior space is awesome -- much bigger on the inside than most other sedans.
- The new 255 HP engine is fantastic -- and I am THRILLED that I get close to 30 mpg on the highway in 6th gear. That's worth a LOT to me -- and much better than the 22-25 MPG of the Infiniti M35x that my friend has.
To each his own, but I think the sentence at the end of the Edmunds comparison (they gave the 530xi 4th place out of five) says it all:
"If you consider road feel luxurious, the 2006 BMW 530xi is the best car here."
I DO consider road feel to be extremely important (my wife and I get motion sick very quickly in floaty cars like the Lexus) AND it's PERFECTLY FINE by me if the 530xi costs $10K more than the competition -- it is worth it to the people who buy it.
I ABSOLUTELY do not condone high-handed dealer behavior, but that happens with every manufacturer (you should see Toyota!), and please don't slam me for my personal opinions above -- I am just sharing them with you.
Cheers!
I, after a long story that I will not repeat again, ended up with the Audi A6 3.2 with the 6spd tiptronic (with regular and sport mode auto shift, too.)
With some 3,000+ miles on my Audi, I am very pleased. Two weeks ago I took at new 530xi out for a test drive. The ONLY version they inventory (at Ohio's largest BMW dealer) are automatics ("we will, from time to time, have a stick. . .we do not usually order either stick or sport package equipped versions as they do not sell well.")
The BMW 530xi was very nice -- but with the automatic it was, basically, emasculated (just like my Audi). Now, having driven a 225HP 530i with an auto, my wife's X3 3.0 (225HP) with a stick, etc -- the 530xi was plenty peppy (the term I use is "adequate.") But my A6 seems close enough to make the BMW NOT seem all that special.
However, the very fact that the BMW 530xi can be had with a stick shift would make me seriously consider putting the Bimmer at the top of my shopping list. For, even though I damn with faint praise ("adequate" engine power, etc.), I can by imagination extrapolate that the 530xi would be THE performer of this group when equipped with the 6speed manual.
I love my A6 3.2, but I am more than a little envious that ONE LPS car, at least, can be had with a proper transmission.
Congratulations on your new BMW 530xi -- I look forward to you regaling us with your experiences with this car. BTW, iDrive and MMI (I have the latter) are not as bad as they are cracked up to be. But still they seem to be on these cars somewhat because "they can be" on these cars.
I don't know if I can honestly say I am better off with MMI than I would be without it -- my main reason for actually LIKING MMI is the fact that my Navigation, Radio/Sound system and Telephone are all voice controlled with the Voice Command option for MMI.
Cheers right back at you! :shades:
Very biased opinion
Often on this site comparos are referred to and discussed. What makes a comparo worthy of discussion? Are any better than others (other than the one picking your car)? Does one magazine have a superior testing facility than the orhers? I'm sure the other mags have a test track, but its not obvious on their websites!