Why so many 4x4s

bottomgun

I live in the snow belt of upstate New York and
the dealers here hardly ever stock any 4x2 trucks.
I've been driving in this part of the country for
49 years and have never owned a 4x4 and have never
been stuck in the snow in my life. It seems like
the younger generations think the first time they
see a snow flake in the air they have to have a
four wheel drive vehicle to get around. If I were
plowing driveways it would be another matter, but
to just drive on plowed roads, or unplowed roads
with less than a foot of snow the four wheel drive
is just not needed. Go ahead and beat me up on this
guys, I know for my kind of driving I'm right.

hindsite

Depends on what you use your 4x4 for. I personally make quite a few trips to Buffalo from the NYC metro area in the winter and use the 4x4 over the front drive. Plus it is used for recreational use so for me it is given.

acastleman

OK, I'll jump in here. I don't need four wheel drive all that often but when I do, it is a life saver. Pulling a 20 ft gooseneck loaded with cattle up a muddy hill after it's rained all night is just one example. Or having an 11000lb tractor on a trailer and being able to use 4 wheel low to get things moving. And, althugh we don't have ice storms here in Texas very often, the way us crazy Texans drive, there are plenty of stuck people to pull out of the ditch.

Oh, and one more thing,,,,,there COOL!!

Al

dekingk

You are one of the small percentage of 4x4 owners who have a legitimate need for it. There are lots of reasons for driving a 4x4, but most of the bozos out there don't need them.
hindsite: You may or may not be one of the people who need one but from where I sit more people get into trouble than out of it with their 4x4s. Every time we have a snow storm there are more 4 whell drive vehicles off the road than anything else. The reason for this is that people get a false sense of security when they take off down the road in 4 wheel drive, then they overdrive their abilities and spin out when the going gets slippery. A 4x4 will not stop any quicker or corner any better than a 4x2, and has less control than a front wheel drive in the snow. My own feeling is there are just too many wimps out there that think they are invincable with their new 4x4 truck and get themselves and others in trouble.
I have pulled a 9,000 lb fifth wheel all over the country with my 4x2 and have never found a case where I wished I had more drive wheels.

mgdvhman

..Denial..

Such a pity..

- Tim

scape2

4x4 are a status symbol of sorts for some. I use my 4x4 as a 4x4 in the Cascade Mountains and deserts of Oregon/Washington. I like to fish, camp, hike, and just explore, boat. It is a statistic however that most 4x4's never even see gravel. I would go an all wheel drive like a Subaru or a mini SUV these are very functional in town and city driving yet offer the needed traction on demand.

moparmad

I live in the southern tier of NY,that's south west NY,80 miles south of Buffalo.My father has never owned or driven a 4X4 until he drove mine,now he owns a Grand Cherokee. It is very true that 4 wheel drive can get some in trouble,how ever to say a four wheel drive has less control in snow is ludicrous. I also own a front wheel drive Chrysler 300M complete with traction control and anti-lock brakes and it sucks in the snow compared to my 4X4 Dodge Ram. The whole trick with four wheel drive is to drive it just like a two wheel drive because it won't stop any faster. If you live on a nice main road and are retired and have the luxury of never having to travel in bad weather then don't buy a 4X4. I live in a rural area, the snowplows come out at the crack of about 8:00,I have to be to work at 7:00,I usually break trail for the plows. I have never been stuck,never been in a ditch,And have pulled many more cars out of ditches than trucks. Maybe it's the area I live in far away from large cities(yes Rochester is a large city to us in these parts). Maybe the drivers are more careful here, or maybe we are seeing a case of 4X4 envy.
One story I can relate. A friends truck broke down in a very bad storm. I drove about forty miles to get him(no noone works five miles from thier house here). We towed his truck part way back with six inches of snow on the road,we couldn't leave it because it was in the middle of the road with no shoulder to put it on. We stopped at a house to use the phone and the guy who lived there said we could put the truck in his driveway for the night. As I unhooked my truck the guy backed up behind him in his chevy. I thought the chevy was a 4X4 until the guy started spinning like crazy to slowly inch him back. I told them to wait a minute and I would pull him in. The guy insisted he had the best tires ever made on his truck and he could do it. After an hour of screwing around he did do it.But my point is he beat the crap out of his truck,and wasted alot of time just for foolish pride. I also found out it was the brand loyalty issue,his chevy could do anything my Dodge could do but even better. Yes you can get around in a two-wheel drive,but you could also cut a two foot diameter hickory tree with a hatchet because the chainsaw would cost too much. When I finally made it home that night the snow was 2 1/2 feet deep on the road and no other cars were out. I should not have been,maybe I should of just left him stranded.

Rocles

I own 4x4s for a reason. The reason? Construction sites that have too much mud!! Screw-off on the snow issue. I drove for years with two-wheel drives and never got stuck in snow. I need power from four wheels when at work--I find those conditions harder than snow.

andy_jordan

I live in rural Ontario, as you would expect most trucks are 4x4. That said I agree that 4x2 is sufficient for highway and city driving whatever the weather. Even on many of our rural routes 4x2 is sufficient.

The reason that many people have 4x4 is security. A 4x4 is a lot more forgiving than a 4x2 and can make up for deficiencies in driving ability. Now I grant you that too many people think 4x4 can never lose traction and those drivers always end up in the ditch. However in my part of the world people are used to the weather more so than people who usually drive highway / city and for them 4x4 is a sensible investment - for security if nothing else.

In my case I definitely need 4x4 because I frequently go off road in extreme conditions through my involvement in dog sled racing.

Rocles, couldn't agree more, mud is a lot worse for traction than snow. Only thing worse is freezing rain (and then it doesn't matter how many wheels are driving).

moparmad

I have driven through snow deep enough to push with the bumper of my truck. I work construction also and the thing I have seen the most people get stuck in, is offroad when deep mud is covered by deep snow. I have driven in freezing rain many times and if you go real slow fourwheel drive is twice as good as two wheel drive. The thing that really determines success is how good your tires are. I have driven up a frozen waterfall with a Jeep Commanche. It was about 2' tall,the truck didn't even spin a tire,try that in a two-wheel drive.

andy_jordan

Mud under snow, yeah that can be tough, but doesn't happen too much as mud tends to be frozen by that stage. Haven't experienced many occasions when the ground has been warm enough to keep the mud 'gooey' and then snow was fairly light so no big deal.

Driving in freezing rain - I'd never do it. Not sure where you are, but here that results in a sheet of ice over everything - no traction regardless of tires. Only way to get through is to be heavy enough to break through the ice. We are tlaking the kind of freezing rain that (when combined with wind) blows parked cars across parking lots.

Ice itself isn't too bad if you can gain traction through unevenness - your waterfall for example. The problem with freezing rain on the roads is that the surface is as smooth as glass.

mgdvhman

I've had times when all you could do was drive about 1/2 the speed you can crawl....and all you do is slide which ever way the parking lot is graded.

not a fun time.

Ice can be OK at times....and other times it's just plain impossible.

Today was our first snow fall...not a lot..but I expected to see some trucks in the ditch on the highway....not a one. Not even a car.
Come on Generation X and Yuppies!....you are letting me down!

Silverado was under control....like I need to say that...

LOL

- Tim

gwmoore

I'm with you andy, best not to drive in freezing rain. We get that stuff you are talking about, especially at the western mouth of the Columbia River Gorge on the eastern side of Portland (OR) where everything gets coated with a 1" sheet of ice (windows, signs, trees, can't get into cars because the sheet seals the car doors). The only way to walk around is with golf shoes. I have drove in it, but with a subaru with studs (and VERY slow, and I hated every minute of it).

But the thing is, pickups are built for hauling and towing stuff to places where pavement doesn't always go. Sure you can load up a couple hundred pounds of sand in the back of the bed, but how convenient is that? Heck of a lot better just to have the 4wd and drive as though you don't. Besides, it allows you to go places you wouldn't dare go without it (slippery launch ramps, muddy roads for fishing & hunting, etc.)

One more story. A couple years ago my dad and I took his 4wd '89 dodge/cummins with a 9' camper out to a hillside for some Chukar (partridge) hunting. During the night before hunting, we got about 9" of snow. While hunting the next day the snow melted and turned the ground a little soppy. The snow melting off the camper turned the ground around and under the truck very muddy. We didn't think too much of it because we had driven through a lot worse, as long as it was in 4wd. Well, the hubs did not engage, and we were stuck in 2wd. Guess, what, after about 5 hours of digging, jacking, ripping fence posts out of the ground and using them as improvised planks, we finally got to some firmer ground. Moral of the story, we NEED 4wd, even if not planning to use it.

gwmoore

Oh yeah, I've never had that problem before or since (hubs not engaging), so don't go saying that you can't trust 4wd.

Oh yeah, that road to where we were camping is normally OK for 2wd, so you can't just trust going places where 2wd can usually go, either.

moparmad

I don't advise driving in freezing rain,I'm just saying it can be done. If your at work and it starts you cant very well camp out all night. I don't mean to imply that four wheel drive is an absolute must have, but to those who say it isn't any better than two wheel drive in adverse conditions I say your wrong. We get alot of snow over mud in the spring here in the southern tier of NY(thats southwest).
Talk about an ice story when I was nineteen I bought my very first 4X4,a shiny new Jeep Commanche. We had an ice storm and my Dad's Dodge Dakota(Two wheel drive) slid down the hill it was parked on into the side of my truck. The Dakota had studded tires and about 300 pounds in the back but would not go back up the hill. We had to push it by hand up the hill off the side of my Jeep. After it was a few inches away from the Jeep my Mom had to jump in the Jeep and pull it up into the grass while we held the Dak',the Jeep did not even slip one tire.I then had to tow the Dakota up to a level spot in the lawn.

Rocles

Freezing rain is by far the worse of all conditions. We lost one of our Rams last year on 41 sliding into the concrete embankment at 40 mph because of freezing rain.

dave40

41....I hate that road..to many 18 wheelers

andy_jordan

moparmad, we must agree to disagree.

I suspect that freezing rain here is somewhat worse than you are used to. I have been caught by freezing rain in the middle of my journey home from work. There was no way I was driving, I pulled off the road onto the gravel shoulder, parked up and spent the night in the vehicle. I was in good company. If the freezing rain is bad then there is no choice in my opinion.

I didn't say that 4x4 was no better than 4x2 in adverse conditions, I said that in freezing rain it makes no difference. I stand by that. If you are driving on what is essentially a sheet of perfectly smooth ice you cannot get traction, period. If you can't break through the ice then your only option is to try and make what little friction there is your friend. In that scenario it makes no difference how many wheels are driving.

keith24

I live in Central Arkansas, and see too many people driving big (or small) 4x4 trucks and suvs. I can't see spending the extra money for 4x4, and then NOT using it. I guess some folks here think it HELPS them drive normally in rain and such. I base my conclusion on the following:

On a particularly rainy day back in the spring, I was on my normal drive to work. For reasons I can't remember, I'd driven my old 73 Scout to work. Well.......

there's this one low section of road that, after a hard rain, will "flood". Not too much, just a couple of inches of water that takes a little longer to dissipate. I was in the outside lane, and this "late model" 4-door, 4-wheel-drive Tahoe passes me at a pretty good clip. (45-50)

I was less than 50 yards behind him when he "found the excess water in the road"! I see brake lights, then, headlights, taillights, headlights, tailights, and so on. This genius spins 2 or 3 times, and winds up on the curb! Well, to try to be a good samaritan, I stopped to see if he needed any help. He actually thought that "my suv can go throught this, no problem!"

Some people just lack COMMON SENSE.

Sorry for such a long post!

keith24

moparmad

Ok must be your freezing rain is worse than ours.I have drove in many icey conditions that I know for a fact two-wheel drive would not go,I know this because they tried to follow me and could only follow on the end of my chain.This is fact. Now maybe you get slicker ice(perhaps closer to freezing than what we commonly experience)but over common ice it only takes one wheel of a two wheel drive to spin to get stuck(unless you have a locker).On a 4X4 it takes one front and one rear to spin to get stuck,now unless you use some kind of new math,two is twice as much as one.Now if your traction is 0 then you can argue that 2X0=0.But even on the slipperiest ice traction is never 0,it may be close but never 0.If you don't believe this try pushing your truck with the brakes locked on ice.99 times out of 100 you won't move it,and even if you do, in order for it to have 0 traction you would have to be able to move it move it with no force otherwise you are overcoming something(friction of the tires)which is traction. I am not saying to go out cruising in an ice storm but the whole point of this topic was if four wheel drive was better than two wheel drive in the snow.Must be we agree that it is better in the snow,now the debate is how is it on the ice,and that depends I guess on the ice.

andy_jordan

this topic was asking why there were so many 4x4s.

I am sorry Moparmad, but the more I read of your various posts on a number of topics the less respect I have for your opinions.

Your physics lesson in the previous post ignores one basic fact - inertia.

Incidentally my first post on this subject noted that I was referring to freezing rain conditions where parked cars were being blown across parking lots.

We are obviously not going to agree so you can go back to driving your detuned viper engined truck or physically pushing your truck back up a hill slick with ice. I, on the other hand will hope we don't get too much freezing rain this winter, but will be prepared to pull over and wait it out if it does.

mgdvhman

like the same feeling as in a wave runner...

It makes you feel like God and nothing can touch you!!


Hhahahahahahahahha!!!

I'm invincible!!!!

- LOL

- Tim

gwmoore

For two Dodge guys, you guys are sure in a mood to argue.

Andy, we have freezing rain like you are talking about with glassy sheet ice on everything (I've seen cars blown across the parking lot), and I was stupid enough to drive on it (I was coming home from a long trip and just couldn't resist the urge to get home with my Subaru clad with studs). I made it, but would not like to try it again (there were cars piled up in the median and on the shoulder every 100 feet). So it can be done (it's just stupid to try).

Mopar, Andy is just saying that it's stupid to try to drive in freezing rain, no matter if you have 4wd or not. He's not saying 4wd isn't better. Obviously, since he has 4wd in his new Dakota (at least I think he does).

Now boys, lets not start insulting each other and try to LISTEN to what the other is saying, which is that whoever said 4wd isn't better in slippery conditions is an IDIOT. You shouldn't have to have a Doctorate's degree in quantum mechanics or even have to know much about inertia, friction or other physics terms to realize the more drive wheels, the more GO. But 4wd does not provide anymore STOP. That's where the bafoons end up in the ditch.

jjones673

on not providing any more STOP; but everyone seems to miss at least one critical point: 4WD provides higher ground clearance, allowing for more off-road driving capability.

dekingk

Yes, the 4x4 sets higher off the road, but unless you also have bigger tires your drive gear is the same distance from the road as the 4x2. Of course if you are foolish enough to get yourself in a position where the center of your vehicle is hung up on a snowbank the 4x4 will actually be more forgiving. I think the point that was originally being made is that the great majority of the 4x4 buyers have no need for all that extra mechanical equipment the just bought and now have to maintain.
If you have a legitimate need for a 4x4 then by all means get one. If you just want to be able to blow everyone else off at the lights when the going is slick I'd rather see you stay home and let the rest of us get there safely.

gwmoore

The thing is, it's not how much you use the 4wd, its whether you will EVER need the 4wd. If you only got things that you use frequently, why have ABS or airbags. You rarely, if ever (hopefully), need them.

If you think you might need 4wd, you should get it, otherwise you will not be comfortable going places you wouldn't think twice about going to with 4wd (however infrequently). If you run into those situations, you will definitely not be as happy with your purchase.

I'm happy to say I use 4wd very frequently, I'll be using it this weekend travelling through snow to my bird hunting fields.

m1685

to those last posts. I was wondering if someone might change this topic name to FREEZING RAIN or IDIOTS WHO THINK 4x4 IS NOT BETTER THAN 4x2.

mgdvhman

people who actually think 2wd is just as good as 4WD....are the people who don't have 4wd...and probably are jealous cuz they be without?

Who cares...??

Once more....not I!

- Tim

jjones673

the original question was "why so many 4x4's," and my contribution of one 4x4 and soon another on the road is because of clearance and the ability to GO places where I want to go, and the ability to get back out. Places where I would not/could not/should not GO in a 4x2.

Drove my Dad's '69 Ford pu 4x2 15-20 years ago, and went just about anywhere I wanted in 4" to 24" of snow on the road, but got into trouble when I foolishly went off road, even in dry conditions. Vowed then that when I was able to buy a truck, it would be 4x4. Did not want to be embarassed again by having to have someone come pull my foolish a!#*$@ out of trouble.

keith24

In My Humble Opinion:

Why so many 4x4's? I think way over half of the people who buy 4x4's do it just for the status factor. I'm not trying to say thats good, bad, or indifferent, just somewhat frivolous. How many of you out there have been to the mall, or the grocery store, or Wal-Mart, and witnessed countless people trying to park their new full-size 4x4 suv. These trucks and suv's, I'd venture to say, probably NEVER get put into 4wd. Now, GENERALLY SPEAKING, it is women that you see in these behemoth trucks, with a couple of kids, (or more).

ATTENTION ALL WOMEN: That last statement was NOT an attempt to say "women can't drive!". I've seen just as many men trying to park a land barge suv with the same results.

We have become such a materialistic society, that we feel that to be accepted, we must drive the newest, biggest, most optioned, prettiest suv or truck on the market.

Whatever happened to being practical?

keith24

polsen

4x4's are superior to 4x2'x when it comes to stopping if you are going at a slow speed for the same reason that you do not touch the brakes except lightly when coming down a steep unpaved hill. You let the engine brake the tires and you are able to slow down under control.
I've been stopped in rushhour traffic going slightly up hill with a icy road and had great fun putting my jeep into low 4WD and inching along without a slip whereas the rear or front drives next to me would slip a tire and slide sideways.

gwmoore

I agree that many of the SUVs and trucks are never used off-road, lets face it, women own a lot of them and generally don't get as excited as men do about fishing, hunting, or just driving around in the mud.

However, I do plan on getting a 4wd for my wife in her next vehicle. Personally, I want her to be as safe as possible. I don't want to worry about her having to put chains on if she drives over the mountains without me to see her family. I want to know that she will have the most traction possible when making a left turn onto a busy road when its icey. I know she has never pushed the limits with driving in the past, unlike me and 99% of the teenage male population, so she does not know the limits and how to recover. Therefore, the more I can do to keep her from losing control in the first place, the better. Further, I know she won't get a big head because she has 4wd and push it. Finally, they are much safer (being larger and higher) concerning accidents where others crash into her. So I don't have any problem paying a little more for 4wd, regardless of how little she might use it, and have my wife in the safest vehicle possible. Besides, I get to drive it also.

dekingk

gwmoore: Just because a 4x4 is higher doesn't make it safer. The rollover rate of SUV's is much higher than that of your standard family car. Of course there will be exceptions to this but that is a fact that the insurance institute is well aware of. If you live in snow country and have no choice but to go out when the snow is a foot deep I don't think anyone will question your choice of a 4x4. The thing is, they are just as popular in the south, where the owners head for the barn if there is a flake in the air. I've lived in North Carolina and have seen this phenominon. Most of these drivers don't even know why they bought the 4x4 except that it's "cool" and that's a waist of money and resources.

leathal02

question of "why so many 4X4's" is almost like saying why so many duallies, or why so many powerstrokes

people around here buy duallies and crew cab powerstrokes just to have them, they dont use them for there ability one bit

me not being one of them, obviously, but i do have a 4X4, and do live in the country so often i do count on it

gwmoore

I full-well know that higher is not safer as far as your own control of the vehicle. That's why you have to drive conservatively. I maintain that you probably can't have more control of a vehicle than with an AWD Subaru, Volvo, or even the AWD Porsche. However, I do not think these are safer than a well built SUV (especially one built on a truck frame). None of the cars will do as well as an SUV when a large car or truck piles into you. Most standard cars, whether 4wd or not, will go right under a large pickup or Semi in an accident.

So, I know my wife drives conservatively, making the roll-over less of a factor than implications of someone piling into her.

mgdvhman

in any type accident thank you.

No thanks for hugging the ground.

- Tim

moparmad

My wife was hit head on by a drunk driver October 30,1998.She barely escaped with her life. The sheriff told me that the air bags and crumple zones in her Dodge Neon saved her life. When I told the deputy that she was going to take my truck to work that morning but must have forgotten,his reply was simply,"If she had been in my Dodge Ram instead of her neon the other driver would have been dead for sure(she was driving a Subaru),and my wife could have been worse off ,or much better, no one knows".He explained that not only could the truck have rolled, but more likely it would not have stopped nearly instantly like her Neon did,this could be good or bad because there is no telling where,or what might have stopped it. I guess I'm just saying that I think a vehicles wieght,build strength and probably a million other things factor into it's ability in an accident.What is good in one accident may not be good in another.
That being said I told my wife to buy the car or SUV she wanted and try not to worry too much about if you think it might be safer than another. I told her there is no sense in driving a huge vehicle you hate and can't handle just because of what might happen someday.But I also must admit I was hoping she would decide she wanted an International dumptruck.She finally settled on a Chrysler 300M,which I was happy to find out is all of 3/4 of a ton heavier than her Neon.She is happy,it is a beautiful car,and I'm glad she got something out of this ordeal, which will leave her physically,and worse emotionally scared for the rest of her life.

PS PLEASE.....DONT DRINK AND DRIVE!!!!!

Rocles

Dave,

I agree with you on 41. It's almost as bad as 222. I can't stand turning left into the Harley shop with my bike at Willow Street as whizzing trucks go by as I wait!

dave40

I live few miles from the Harley shop.

mgdvhman

It's hard to say exactly what would happen with X car and X truck...or X car and X car..or even X truck and X truck....But overall I'd say a full size truck at any height would be a better choice for safety.

Course I've driven a low rider as well...Wife still does..Mustang GT convert.

hmmmmm

Honey!....you need a truck!

- Tim

Rocles

Dave,

We got to get you a bike!

dave40

My biking days are over.

Rocles

No such thing! Which brand would you be suited for?

drzoom

I live in So.Cal and we got more 4X4's out here than Upstate N.Y. has snow in Febuary. Most folk here don't need or really use the 4WD in their four bys and "4-lo" range is something most of them are afraid to engage as they don't know what will happen if they do! However, they do enjoy the "ride height" and "suspension compliance" of stout 4 wheel drive vehicles.

So.Cal has about 8 million of the world's worst drivers and you need every advantage available to assist you with sharing the roads with these domestic and multi-national chuckle-heads.

Personally I have always loved and owned four wheel drive trucks and will never drive anything less. Unlike many others I do use my 4WD as I go four wheelin as much as possilble. Mountains in the summer and deserts in the winter.( I don't function well in snow) There are many reasons folks drive four by fours and out here in La-la Land and alot of them are wierd, but no matter. It's all for the love or anticpating need of having four wheel drive. Plus the resale value and lease residuals are huge!!!!!!

jcmdie

My last car was a full size car with a powerful V8 and rear wheel drive. W ith performance tires on that car was a pain to drive in the winter. I got 4WD because I was tired of not being able to pull out into traffic. My last truck was a 2WD and the rear end could break loose pretty easy on wet pavement. I got 4WD because I was tired of settling for less in a bad traction situation.

uo2b4x4n2

4 -wheel drive has its advantages outside of weather related situations too,. Traveling I 10 eastbound outside of Lafette, La. we were (briefly)stopped due to an overturned semi, blocking both lanes .Noticing the access road along side the highway , all the folks w/ 4x4 drove down one side and up onto the access road and continued on their merry way while all the 4x2 sat there.

meredith

After 30 or more days of inactivity....

this topic is being "frozen." It will be archived or deleted in the next 10 days or so.

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