Has Honda's run - run out?

ateixeira

But you can't hit a home run on every first at-bat in every inning.

People tend to push the payload limits, the towing limits, the capacity of large vans like the Odyssey. I believe that's where the tranny issues showed up first, and most often. Isn't that right? (I'm asking, that's where I read about it)

My theory is that is because it's the model carrying the heaviest load. Just common sense, basically. A weak spot in some trannies was exposed in the vehicle in which it had to work the hardest, and the one in which owners were most likely to push those payload limits.

Didn't matter much, Ody was a home run.

OK, they broke the bat while swinging. But it still flew out of the park.

-juice

imidazol97

Most of the failures seem to be driveable to a degree so that they don't just die on site. But the transmission problems permeat the various lines and should be happening, especially after years and years. Extending the warranty pacifies the dedicated but doesn't really do anything with the design/engineering problems.

grbeck

I guess Honda could have taken the approach that GM is taking with the leaking intake manifolds of certain V-6 engines, a problem that, if left unchecked, will ruin the engine.

Issue a TSB, but don't tell the customers or officially extend the warranty. Under this policy, customers pay for repairs - or, in some cases, an entire engine - unless they scream loud enough at the dealer, or know someone who can find the TSB for them. (Which is what happened with my co-worker when her Impala had this problem. Fortunately, I was able to save her some big money by tracking down the TSB for her. The dealer, however, was ready to charge her full price for the repair. And she had to have it done, as the problem would have eventually ruined the engine if not repaired.)

But some people still defend GM. Talk about passive dedication...

imidazol97

The GM fix takes care of the problem. It seems with the transmissions the problems are still there. Some people have repeated failures by 100,000. If they own the car longer, they are just waiting for the next time the design fails.

anythngbutgm

I suppose if I read it in a forum, I'd be a bit scared about the tranny in my X. Guess I should stay out of the problems and solutions boards and just go buy a Buick...

anythngbutgm

That last post was merely tongue in cheek. No offense intended.

Seriously though, there isn't much out there that will pull me out of my Hondas. Without spending twice as much for a Lexus, Benz or BMW, I have been plenty satisfied with all of my H/A cars. My wife and I have had a total of (8) combined and will most likely continue to cross-shop them for future buys. And unfortunately, not one GM vehicle stands a chance of being added to our list. Don't like the designs, don't like the way they drive, don't like the styling. So underwhelming it's pathetic, and yet they are the #1 brand in the world. :confuse:

andre1969

do they actually FIX those leaking intake manifolds with a re-engineered part so that they don't fail again, or do they just replace the manifold with the same type? If they're just throwing on a new manifold that's designed the same as the old one, the opportunity is there for it to fail again.

Heck, I've made it to around 112,000 miles on a single CHRYSLER tranny! So I think I could handle a Honda tranny without staying up late at night wondering if it's going to fail. :P

BTW, what's a typical bill for a replacement Honda tranny?

anonymousposts

I don't like the rear of the 06 Accord's either. I much prefer the design of my 2004. Like it or not I think that at least the 03-05 Accord rear-end looked like it was designed with the whole car in mind. The rear of the 06 just doesn't seem to match the rest of the car.

nippononly

The rear of the Accord now looks like every single other midsize sedan out there. I was struck by the similarity of the new design to the Impala, the LaCrosse, the Five Hundred, the Avalon, the Camry, the TL, and others I can't even think of right now.

I always prefer that the turn signals be a separate orange light, rather than red, and especially rather than using the brake light as the signal also. I didn't really like the '04, but disliked the '05 even more (they went to all red lights for that year), and now it just looks totally generic and forgettable.

stickguy

They design something different/unique, and get slammed for making ugly cars that are blamed for a sales drop. So, they design something mainstream (aka "normal") and get slammed for not being unique.

As always, you can't please everyone, so buy what you like. To me, the taillight design is way down the list of factors I use to make a decision, but maybe that is just me.

I think the new butt looks fine. I never thought the old one was attractive, but it did sorta blend with the car, but in any case I could live with it. I would also rarely see it, since I am usually driving my car, not following it!

varmint

"But you can't hit a home run on every first at-bat in every inning."

Very true. Depending on how you measure success, the Ridgeline makes a good example for that truism.

But I don't think I would ever assume that a mistake was made because it was the first time a manufacturer had done something. Not without any evidence. The fact that the Accord V6 and TL also experienced these problems kinda makes me think that load issues were not central to the problem.

varmint

HCCI Engine

Was this included in anyone's crystal ball?

carguy58

"The rear of the Accord now looks like every single other midsize sedan out there. I was struck by the similarity of the new design to the Impala, the LaCrosse, the Five Hundred, the Avalon, the Camry, the TL, and others I can't even think of right now. "

I think there is a similarity in the talight set-up to the Ford 500, TL, and maybe the Implala. But the Avalon talights wrap around the side of the car where as the Accord's tailights don't. The Camry back end is more tall looking and slanted than the Accord's back end is.

andre1969

is just an evolution of that thing Ford was going back in the late 90's, when a lot of its car rumps started taking on a bit of a tapered, Jaguar-esque look. Maybe this is what started it all? Or perhaps this?. I guess when you think about it, with the way most car rears are shaped, and when you take into account the cutout of the decklid, maybe that roughly triangular style is just the easiest, most logical, (and cheapest) way to go? Basically just fill in the area from the edge of the trunk lid with taillight and take it either to the edge of the car, or wrap it around a bit. It's actually pretty hard to make a good looking rear-end where the taillights carry over onto the trunklid. If any of the body parts are just the least bit out of alignment, it draws attention to it.

carguy58

Your right car makers can't win unless your Chrysler. I do dislike the 300C exterior design but the car buying public seems to like it. Also, Chrysler did produce gorgeous looking cars in the mid to late 90's with the Sebring, Concorde, and the Caravan.

On a side note on producing cars that are hit and miss in the styling didn't Honda did try to go youthful with the exterior design with the 5th generatrion Accord(94-95) and people didn't like it? Then they came out with the 98 Accord and people said bland styling. I myself thought the 96-97 Accord was a great looking car in my opinion and still is. I thought it was close(almost as good looking)to some Chrysler designs too from that time period.

andre1969

I think the 1990-93 was my favorite. I liked the proportions, the generous amount of window area, the low beltline, and the way the C-pillar had that BMW-esque jig to it. Still, I don't think there's ever been an Accord ugly enough to get your panties into an uproar over. There are generations that I like better than others, but none that I really hate. I do think the '98-02 Accord looked better than the current one (even with the tail-lift), but the '03+ model is roomier, bigger, more comfy, and would fit my needs better.

ateixeira

Sounds interesting. No plugs should mean lower maintenance, also. But you'd probably need a beefier engine block and some serious noise-suppression technology.

I'm a bit surprised, Honda engines are usually very precise and controlled (cams, valves, spark), and it seems like the HCCI process is hard to control.

So no, this was not in my crystal ball, in fact I'd be shocked if they ever made a production engine this way.

-juice

gee35coupe

I totally agree. I'd drive one of those to this day. I've owned 2 of them and my mom currently drives one.

carguy58

"MDX is a great vehicle, I can attest to that. My dad put 135k or so on an 01' (probably one of the first ones sold) and never replaced a tranny either."

I didn't think the MDX was part of the recall that Honda put out for the tranny to get the oil jet kit installed. I thought the tranny recall only affected the 00-02 TL's and 01-02 CL's as well as some 03 CL's and TL's as far as Acura products go. I didn;t see any black marks on CR's chart for the trouble spot of tranny for the MDX. To get into further detail for the trouble spot of "tranny" in CR's charts for the MDX for 01 and 02 model years ranked above average and for 03 and 04 had excellent reliability for the trouble spot of tranny. Remember though the average 04 model only had 3,000 miles on it at the time of their surveys of 04 cars in CR's last big issue.

I wonder if owners of 98-02 Accord V6's and also owners of 99-maybe 02 Oddy mini-vans had the oil jet kit installed in their tranny.

stickguy

that Honda is developing a line of RWD cars, and might bring one in as the next RL.

That should be the highlight of the year for a few of the folks that hang out around here!

ateixeira

It will help the image of their flagship, but with SH-AWD there's not real need for it.

-juice

stickguy

maybe not, but it will allow them to have higher end stuff without AWD, since not everyone actually wants or needs it. besides, there is the prestige factor to consider (gotta keep up with the Jones').

I would be more excited with it at the lower/mid level (at least of Acura). think how nice the TL would be if it was switched to RWD. Say goodbye torque steer! TSX too could be quite the 3 series fighter.

carguy58

"I think the 1990-93 was my favorite. I liked the proportions, the generous amount of window area, the low beltline, and the way the C-pillar had that BMW-esque jig to it."

Yeah the die-hard Honda fans and enthusiasts (save for maybe me) think the 90-93 were the best looking Accord's.

"Still, I don't think there's ever been an Accord ugly enough to get your panties into an uproar over."

The current generation (03-04's) while I don;t really entirely like it isn't as ugly as I once though it was. The 03-04's just look extremely bland to me whereas like I said before with the 06's the front end just doesn't match the back end. The 05's I can;t point out the words in terms of what I don;t like about it.

ateixeira

I think that was the last time the Accord held the best selling car throne as well. And that's before it even got a V6!

-juice

varmint

Not missed. Just don't care.

Well... that's putting it too plainly. There's just not enough information provided. They're looking at a RWD platform. At the least, it's 5 years off into the future. No idea how extensively it will be used. For all we know it will be used for the RL and something larger than the RL. But the TL would remain FWD and AWD. (That scenario actually makes the most sense to me.)

So, it's kinda like the V8 talk. Nice to hear, but neither surprising nor all that informative.

varmint

The HHCI would be a lot like a modified diesel engine, so I'm sure the engine architecture is not a significant issue. Diesels are becoming less noisy than petrols in some cases. So, I'm not sure that's a significant concern. Besides, noise suppression can be handled with the same ANC system they already have coupled with VCM.

I didn't know anything about these engines prior to reading a post with this link, so it's been new territory for me. Having read a few other links, I suspect Honda's expertise in valve control would be exactly the kind of thing needed to make a viable engine of this type.

First, researchers think that a mixed-mode HCCI engine is the most likely type to make it to market. It would operate in HCCI mode in the low to mid rpm range. Then it would switch over to a more traditional spark ignition system for high load operation.

There are thermal issues to address with this sort of thing, but also a risk of early detonation. During high rpm operation, the spark should ignite the fuel, but, with a high compression design, there's also a risk of detonation by compression.

One possible solution would be to over-lap the intake and exhaust valve timing during high rpm operation. With the intake valve not-quite closed during the compression stroke, some of the compressed gas would be leaked up the pipe (so to speak). That reduces the compression and might eliminate the risk of early detonation.

That's just a theory, but Honda already has several engines which already allow for this kind of over-lap.

anythngbutgm

Supposedly, the early models (01' 02') were recalled to have the oil jet kit installed. The Pilot as well. My dad had the kit installed on his. It took a day to install and he ended up with an 02' TL for a loaner. That thing was quick, damn quick.

03accordman

The last time was 2001 or 2002, the Accord outsold the redesigned Camry

03accordman

i agree with you, the 03-04 was the best rear end

andre1969

on the Accord for '05? The only thing I can really see different is that the lower parts of the entire taillight assembly for '05 are white, compared to just a little white rectangle for the backup lights on the '03-04. I kinda like the '05 taillights better, because having the white go all the way across makes them look not quite as big and overpowering.

nippononly

Huh? They changed the '06 taillights, from the wide style of before to a pyramid shape that mimics every car on the road.

The '05 was unchanged, except that the turn signal became red instead of the orange it was before.

carguy58

I think if I'm positive the last time the Accord outsold the Camry was 2001 when the 4th generation Camry was in its last generation of bodystyle(97-01.) The 2002+ Camry did however come out in September of 2001.

carguy58

"Well... that's putting it too plainly. There's just not enough information provided. They're looking at a RWD platform. At the least, it's 5 years off into the future. No idea how extensively it will be used. For all we know it will be used for the RL and something larger than the RL."

I don't know about the next generation RL going RWD. Its hard to believe Honda would make the move from an AWD format to a RWD format in the RL in just one passing generation since the current generation RL is currently AWD. The current RL seems to be selling well where I live in NJ. I haven;t really looked at RL sales in detail to know exactly how well the RL is selling but this is the best the RL has been selling since the indroduction of the 96-98 model according to a little article on autochannel.com along with last month Honda/Acura sales. I did however skim through last months Acura sales and the current RL seems to be outselling the last generation RL twice.

"But the TL would remain FWD and AWD. (That scenario actually makes the most sense to me.)"

Yeah that makes sense to me that the TL would either remain FWD or go to AWD since alot of TL buyers live in the Northeastern States where we get snow in the winter. For Honda to make the TL RWD wouldn't make any sense for its buying audience up in the Northeast.

varmint

http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0510/27/01-363355.htm

Plus an ad for the Prius conspicuously inserted into the article.

ateixeira

With a better-looking Accord and a new Civic off to a good start, perhaps we should retire this thread.

-juice

varmint

Despite the title, this kinda serves as a general dumping ground for anything Honda-related, but not applicable to a specific thread.

Moderator's choice...

nwng

thanks for the link, there was another story on that page about bathroom break inside Ford's plant, that cracks me up

nippononly

the minivan disguised as a crew-cab pick-up has not set the world on fire. Automotive News today has an article about Honda scaling back Ridgeline production as the model is off to a slow start. Not a HUGE shock there...

Seems like the Accord and Civic are picking the pace back up though, and I can't wait to see some instrumented testing of the new SI.

ateixeira

But it's not like the Odyssey won't pick up the slack. They won't have any assembly lines going idle, they just might not be doing as much overtime.

-juice

nippononly

they will maintain full production without missing a beat. But with the projected reduction to be 3000 units a quarter, they are figuring to miss their sales forecast by about 25% next year. I am more surprised that there are 35-40K people per year for whom the Ridgeline is just the right puppy. And I guess even that many is still more than lots of companies sell of lots of their models.

varmint

The Ford Explorer Sport Trac averaged about 40K units per year. With that vehicle as a base-line, the Ridgeline doesn't seem to be doing that badly.

But no matter how you spin the sales numbers, it's clear that Honda was expecting to do better with the Ridgeline. I think we'll see substantial changes to the content and styling in the near future. Not the usual new color and extra cupholders Honda typically does from year to year.

andre1969

is that it suffers from the "kitchen sink" syndrome. As in, everything but the ___. Every single one comes with AWD, a powerful V-6, that handy storage bin under the bed, power windows, locks, and other assorted gadgets. And with a base price of around $28,000, it's not all that cheap. Perhaps if they offered stripper versions of it, a FWD-only (or RWD-only) version, a weaker base V-6, etc, it might have sold better.

nippononly

I don't know about other dealers, but pretty much all my dealer keeps in stock are ones with leather seats, the top-line models. And he has a MILLION of them, they just sit there.

The thing about the price is, you figure Honda's costs for this thing must be not far off those of the Odyssey, and there isn't any really cheap Odyssey either. It may be very difficult for them to find ways to make an econo trim of this model.

I also have to remind myself that this is Honda's first "truck" ever, and it does take time for new concepts like that to catch on with the public. More time than Honda thought, I guess.

ateixeira

What I find incredible is that Ford was doing those numbers with a truck platform dating back to the stone ages, approximately. :confuse:

The new Sport Trac looks tremendously better, but I bet the prices go up too. Let's see how the segment shakes out.

FWIW, they now offer a FWD Pilot for the first time, with VCM too. Anyone know the EPA numbers on them? I'm wondering if they did it to lower prices or to boost CAFE figures and capture fuel misers.

-juice

varmint

"It may be very difficult for them to find ways to make an econo trim of this mode."

Exactly. However, I think some of the things mentioned so far would be too integral to the design to remove. AWD, for example, would be a difficult thing to remove without effectively neutering the truck's capabilities. I think it's the other stuff that jacks up the price. Things like...

Honda's safety for everyone program. Every Ridgeline comes with ABS, VSA, and a full set of airbags.

Every model comes with remote keyless entry, power sliding rear glass, bed lighting, cruise control, and rear window defroster.

The base radio has a single CD, where they could probably get away with just an AM/FM receiver.

Most of the buyers Honda wants to attract do, in fact, want most of this stuff. But the market is accustomed to seeing ad prices for absolutely stripped models where you have to specify that you want a floor pan and some brakes, please.

1racefan

styling. Sure it is better than an Avalanche (IMO), but a lot of people consider it "out there". The other Sunday, I had a car load of passengers with me, and drove through the Honda lot just to check out the new Civic, new Accord rear end, etc... We passed the row of RLs, and my 3 passengers didn't care for the looks, but I find it to look fairly good. That made me start to wonder, because the demographics of the people in the car with me would look at a truck equipped like the RL, and priced like it if they were in the market for a truck. I just wonder if the RL had looked more "mainstream", but still incoprporated many of the elements that make it unique if it might be selling better now?

ateixeira

a floor pan and some brakes, please

And brakes are usually extra.

I recall bumpers being an extra-cost option on some pickups. It's ridiculous.

I think that is slowly changing.

FWIW it hurt the Baja as well, Subaru made leather and a sunroof standard (gosh, study the demographic much?) and that put prices way to high for the only truly "compact" compact remaining.

-juice

varmint

Yep, the styling seems to be another factor. That's why I think styling and content will get larger adjustments with the yearly updates.

The content issue almost makes me think they should have introduced an Acura version before the Honda.

nippononly

if you price out a 4x4 V-6 Tacoma crew cab these days with the safety equipment of the Honda (or at least as much as you can get - does the Toyota offer side curtains and stability control?), you will come out to about a $27K price tag, $29K if you want the offroad package. That is a much truckier truck (in both good and bad ways, depending on what you want it for), but still: that thing sells very well, and most commonly in crew cab configuration.

This either proves that people still want their trucks trucky (numb steering, sloppy handling, but unstoppable off the pavement and very rugged and prepared for abuse), or that truck buyers hate Honda and love Toyota.

??

Or is it just the Ridge's looks, handicapping it?

ateixeira

Keep in mind they sell probably 100 variations of that truck. It comes with a manual tranny, even. So Honda can't compete with the sheer variety offered by Toyota.

Compare the Tundra to the F-150, and you have the same result. With no HD models, they can't compete with the F-350 - F-650 nor can they come close in overall sales.

-juice