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Has Honda's run - run out?
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Comments
What's the deal with the NSX and S2000 when they could build a "Honda 3 series" that would blow the automotive world away.
Honda has set a benchmark for others to follow, by consolidating the platforms. Until now, Honda had to focus on launching new vehicles and tweak/expand its production facilities. With a handful of platforms (that everybody else is trying to achieve), and a flexible manufacturing system (a production line is no longer limited to a platform), all that remains is focus perfection in terms of quality while being able to adapt to market changes and demand.
I agreed with the current Honda CEO when he took the charge couple of years ago, that focus needs to be on quality and not on quality. I would rather see Honda continue to focus on quality, even if the growth is just a percent or two. A rapid growth often results in quality mishaps (Nissan is a good example today).
Yeah, just like a $90K mid engine sports car is not the answer to anything, but they developed it anyway.
"As much as I would like to see Honda develop a RWD platform, I just don't see the need, so it stays a "want"."
Honda needs the S2000 and NSX as much as they need to develop a new space shuttle. IMO, a BMW fighter comes before a Ferrari and Miata fighter.
Sidenote: I love inline 6's and the ONE manufacturer I always wanted to make a modern I6 has been Honda. Strap that puppy into a RWD Acura TSX type vehicle and they'd put BMW in a world of hurt overnight.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Think S2000 motor with 2 more cylinders added on. Hello M3.
"oh yeah, and i'd bet they'd sell just a few more than NSX's and S2000 sales combined! ;-)"
Exactly. Which is why the need/want argument makes no sense.
And as to the remark above about having in-fighting, I think the thought is more that the next gen TL and TSX could be RWD instead, not that they would develop separate models to be RWD.
AWD is not a proper substitute, but it is a start and will not require a lot of investment on Honda's part. Not to mention they can advertise the "poor weather traction benefits". (not sure how much wet traction advantage there IS on cars running on summer tires)
Lexus should really rethink killing the inline six on the next-gen IS.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Why? Its not like the inline 6 is a strong selling point now. Also, have you driven the engine that is to take its place? How do you know that it will not be even smoother than the current (read: aged) InLine?
Personally, I find much validity in the AWD vs. RWD debate in terms of Honda, but I feel that many, like me, could care less if Honda/Acura and Toyota/Lexus never have another straight 6.
BMW fans can keep their straight 6s, as well, for what its worth. I'd happily take the TL's AMAZING 3.2L unit over BMWs straight 3.0L in the 3 and 5 series anyday. FWD masks the beauty of the engine in the TL.
~alpha
I'll buy ANYTHING Nissan has out there right now from a looks and styling vantage point, over any other Asian product on the market. Personally, I think the Quest is the best looking minivan on the road - not sure about the instrument pod thing, but the rest of it is cool. YMMV
But there is a certain purity to that old Supra engine.
The newer engine for the next gen will definitely boost those moderately poor fuel economy numbers though, and probably give them a SULEV into the bargain. So I can see the benefits of it. I am just nostalgic!
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I'm just guessing here, but I think it was a show me car.
That's what doesn't make sense to me. They spent money on a mid-engine wannabe Ferrari and a RWD Miata killer, but no RWD luxury/sport sedan???????
Maybe they adapted a racing car design? Doesn't make much sense to me either.
The 3.2L SOHC v6 in the TL is a sweet engine, but the torque curve is flatter and power is more available at lower rpms in the BMW inline 6.
An inline 6 is perfectly balanced, no first or second degree order vibrations. In contrast, a v6 needs a balancer shaft to keep the engine from vibrating which adds a little friction and weight, thus robbing the v6 engine of a little, but not a lot, of efficiency.
Also, the 3.2L DOHC I6 in the M3 gets 300+ HP, but it does so by using super high compression and has to use some really high quality materials to keep the engine from exploding.
Well, there you have it... to each his own. To me, it looks like a bunch of windows plopped on the top of a half-used bar of soap. And if I were in the market for a minivan, I'd take an Odyssey in a heartbeat over the Quest. But then, the simple elegance of most Honda designs appeals to me a lot more than the studies in excess (and in some cases, grotesque) that some recent Nissan designs represent, IMO.
A minivan... cool? I guess their advertising campaign has spoken to you. Too bad it doesn't seem to have gotten through to the women who are clearly their target market based on the ads I've seen. To them, a minivan is a minivan, and an (arguably) "cool looking" minivan is still a minivan. If they consider driving a minivan to be a "stigma", the Quest doesn't overcome that stigma. At any rate, sales are falling significantly below their target. I suspect Nissan may be going after a niche market that's so small as to be virtually non-existent. The idea must have sounded clever at some marketing brainstorming session, though.
If I am not mistaken the TL matches or beats the 330i in both 0-60 and the 1/4 mile. So even if there is more power available it doesn't look like the BMW is making the most of it.
As for the Quest, the interior is nasty. We just bought a 2004 Ody and didn't think once about buying a Quest.
The price of an M3 is what? $20,000 greater than a TL? This is specifically why I stated "3 and 5 series", meaning the general, more highly sold 4 door iterations.
~alpha
Saugatuak - Yeah, the S2K was a 50th birthday present for the company. Like the NSX, the decision to build was about showing off their technical prowess and giving their engineers a chance to dream. I'd say it worked.
I had one as a loaner once. I have never had to put so much gas in anything other than a Silverado that I owned briefly. The 3.0 I6 is an aging beast also. It's been around since the mid 80's. Toyota just missed to boat on engineering a true Bimmer beater. Kinda like the new Pontiac GTO or Chevy SSR. Looks good on paper, but the execution leaves a bit to be desired.
I don't know where to look this stuff up and I'm curious how the 3 series and G35 do compared to the TSX?
Varmint, IMO, Honda could build a much better BMW than Toyota.
Actually, I think Honda might even be able to build a better BMW than BMW, in that if Honda's RWD offering was equal to BMW, it'd be better b/c it'd be more reliable.
Saugatuak - Yeah, the S2K was a 50th birthday present for the company. Like the NSX, the decision to build was about showing off their technical prowess and giving their engineers a chance to dream. I'd say it worked.
You'll never get an argument from me about Honda's engineering prowess. I think Newcar's point is that, if they're going to build a RWD car as a present to themselves, why didn't they build a 3-series killer and make mucho bucks off of it?
TSX - 8,402
G35 - 23,515
Also, for the record, since Acura really has 2 cars in that market space...
TL - 25,331
I think that as long as BMW doesn't do anything monumentally stupid with the 3 Series (like beating it with the Bangle stick), it's going to be a tough car to beat saleswise. Acura and Infiniti simply lack that "nurtured to perfection" snob appeal of BMW.
Yes, and not only would they make more money on it that the S2000, it would make Acura more legitimate as a luxury car maker.
I was watching Car and Driver TV this morning, and they had a sport sedan comparo. The brand new TL was beat by an aging 3 series with almost 100 less hp and the G35. They said it would have won the comparo had it been RWD. That's a shame.
On something as big as the TL and RL I guess I'll grudgingly move into the "they should go RWD" group. But not their smaller cars, except those that are more purely sport and don't need space in the back.
I wonder if Honda being a "small company" has anything to do with how much they can develop. How small do people mean when they say Honda is "small?" I grew up thinking they were neck and neck with Toyota, which made me all the more impressed when I found out they weren't. And if they're small enough then it's a valid excuse.
but also, size is a factor. Pilot has one of the shortest times "on the shelf" (sitting in inventory after being built) of any vehicle sold in America. But Ford builds a WHOLE lot more Explorers per year, so they still win the sales race.
I'm casting my mind back....are S2000 and Del Sol the only convertibles Hondas has ever produced?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I don't think they'll ever do a RWD luxury sedan or a V8 powered one. The business case (in Honda's eyes) just isn't there.
M
I think SH-AWD will be fantastic and will do wonders for Honda. What I'd like to know is, will SH-AWD improve the weight balance in the RL and all the other cars in which it is to be incorporated?
Someone in the RL thread said that SH-AWD is based off of the VTM-4 system in the MDX. I drive an MDX and I can tell you for sure that VTM-4 has not helped the weight balance at all, as the MDX is a typically nose heavy FWD car.
No matter how good the handling of SH-AWD, it's not going to help it gain much traction among the sporty/enthusiast crowd IMO if the RL remains nose heavy.
What hurts Honda is their limited size. Honda must choose more carefully and cannot afford a roll-out such as a rwd platform or V-8 engine program with limited application to their core business. Conversely, Toyota is a huge company with lots of resources ($10 billion in profit) to meet any niche. Honda very well may have reached its peak.
I think there are things they could do to clarify their products (swap the RSX as the next Prelude for the Accord as a TSX coupe). Otherwise, look for continued compromises such as the forthcomming SUT and RL sedans.
But they CAN afford to do that. They did with the S2000 and the NSX. I'll bet Honda makes more money on Accords in one year than they have made on the NSX the entire time they've been selling it.
just like a $90K mid engine sports car is not the answer to anything, but they developed it anyway.
Neither S2000 nor NSX are Honda’s bread and butter cars. There exist, probably to “play the game” rather than build Honda’s economy.
S2000 was in fact released as a part of Honda’s 50th. Honda’s first cars were S-series (S500 was first Honda production car) and S2000 was brought in to serve the nostalgia.
alpha01
FWD masks the beauty of the engine in the TL.
Couldn’t disagree. TL w/SH-AWD would be a lovely combination for well under $40K w/sport package and 6-speed.
saugatak
The 3.2L SOHC v6 in the TL is a sweet engine, but the torque curve is flatter and power is more available at lower rpms in the BMW inline 6.
No. :-)
What I'd like to know is, will SH-AWD improve the weight balance in the RL and all the other cars in which it is to be incorporated?
While SH-AWD may send some weight to the rear, and improve the theoretical weight balance (front to rear), the chassis set up is all that really counts and that is where SH-AWD should help.
nippononly
I'm casting my mind back....are S2000 and Del Sol the only convertibles Hondas has ever produced?
In American market, I think so. Besides the S-series sportsters (including those from the 1960s), in the Japanese market, they had a mid-engined/RWD offering in the form of Honda Beat.
merc1
I personally have always wondered why the TSX wasn't based on the S2000 chassis.
This may have to do with the High X-Bone chassis design of the purpose-built platform for S2000. Even if it could be adapted to build a coupe and add two doors to it (and call it TSX), it would be similar to RX-8.
Instead, it would be nice if Honda could squeeze in the 3.0-liter V6 plus SH-AWD as a trim level in the TSX.
Play what game? The Ferrari and Miata game? Why no BMW game? That game makes more sense than the Ferrari and Miata game.
Maybe, maybe not. Maybe one deciding factor was that they already had/have/planned sedans (the TL and the TSX) based on available platforms that compete in that space, and that could easily be produced at fairly high volumes on existing production lines. As long as they didn't consider the RWD purists as mission critical to reach their target market, they could fill that space with a small additional investment and have some highly profitable cars.
Perhaps they don't compete as directly and effectively against BMW's as some people would like, but they still have been recognized success stories for Acura.
Was that the right decision? Who knows? We're not the ones who have to answer to the stockholders if a potentially risky proposal flops, so it's easy for us to say they have done this or they should have done that.
I am not trying to say they made a wrong decision. I am saying that if you can justify the S2000 and NSX, then you should have NO trouble justifing a BMW fighter. If a BMW fighter makes no sense, then limited volumn Ferrari and Miata fighters make no sense either.
Not if you're looking to sell the cars in volume. Then you either have to ramp up new production lines and facilities for a brand new and totally different design (very expensive) or leverage your current production facilities (much less expensive if your existing production lines have been designed to scale to higher capacities).
The difference is that the NSX and S2000 were designed and intended as low volume "boutique" or image cars, while the TL in particular and the TSX to an extent are intended to be the volume "bread and butter" cars.
A BMW fighter would sell much better than the NSX and S2000, so I'm not sure what your point is here.
"The difference is that the NSX and S2000 were designed and intended as low volume "boutique" or image cars, while the TL in particular and the TSX to an extent are intended to be the volume "bread and butter" cars"
I know the difference between "bread and butter" cars and "boutique" cars; it's part of my point. If Honda can spend money developing "boutique" cars, why can't they develop a RWD platform for the RL and TL? Is FWD a selling point for these cars?
Well then, why not just make a "boutique" 3-series fighter? Probably sell every one they made, and if it did well, would justify making it a mass produced car. Even going the "boutique" route, a 3 series fighter makes more sense than the S2000.
The point is, if you want to come up with a volume seller without a lot of investment, the way to do it is by leveraging existing designs and existing production facilities.
Whereas if you design a completely brand new platform from scratch, you have the expense of new and different production lines.
Given the low volume targets of the NSX and S2000, and the much higher volume targets of cars like the TL or this theoretical RWD replacement, I don't think you can extrapolate anything regarding sports sedans from the former 2 cars.
Not necessarily, because they already had cars competing successfully in that space for their target market. They didn't have anything competing in the S2000 space.
Ya know, we could debate this thing to death... (oops, too late!). But we can only speculate what lead Honda and Acura to make the decisions they made, and second-guessing those decisions after the fact proves nothing. There are countless pieces of information that product management at Honda had available that we have no idea about when we claim that this or that different move would have made more sense.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Just because the sales targets of the S2000 and NSX platforms were low volumn doesn't mean they spent any less money developing them. You cannot argue that Honda would get more for their investment with the NSX and S2000 than they would with a BMW fighter in Acura's lineup. As far as I know, the RL doesn't share a platform with any other vehicle either, so why make it FWD? The RL platform doesn't need to be shared with any "bread and butter" sedans, yet Honda still made it FWD. Why?
Nor can you argue that Honda wouldn't get more for their investment by designing and utilizing a single global platform to handle higher end family cars to lower end luxury sporty sedans than they would by designing a separate BMW fighter.
Why is the RL FWD? Mostly because that's been Honda's design paradigm for many, many years. And only since other manufacturers such as Infiniti and Cadillac have "discovered" RWD have manufacturers been take to task to such a degree for using FWD.
Like I said before, we can speculate and second-guess until we're blue in the face... we don't have all the facts. So I'm done here. Keep going if you must.
But I'm not arguing that. You're debating something that is not being debated.
What I am saying, and what I have been saying all along, is if Honda can do the S2000 and NSX, then I see no reason why they can't do a BMW too. In fact, as far as "image" or "boutique" cars are concerned, a BMW fighter would do more for Honda/Acura's image than the S2000 and NSX IMO.
The RL's main competitors have ALWAYS been RWD.