"There is a lot more than opinion in that article. The subject of handling behavior in that article is based on fact, not opinion."
Sure it contains facts, and also the priority that the author places on those facts. That doesn't make that article the definitive statement about automotive engineering. He considers some things to be mission critical for a car. Not everybody considers those same things to be mission critical.
As I said, it's old news and it doesn't change a thing.
You know you've got a good point when some longtime users start attacking you or dismissing your comments as trivial.
At least you're not being told that a magazine that didn't rate the Accord as tops must have gotten a fleet car that had been in an accident as in another Accord discussion group!!!
"There is a lot more than opinion in that article. The subject of handling behavior in that article is based on fact, not opinion."
Sure it contains facts, and also the priority that the author places on those facts. That doesn't make that article the definitive statement about automotive engineering. He considers some things to be mission critical for a car. Not everybody considers those same things to be mission critical.
As I said, it's nothing new and it doesn't change a thing.
"I'm just saying that the article is not important"
What exactly ARE you trying to say?"
Include the whole statement when you're criticizing someone else's post. I didn't say "the article is not important", I said " the article is not important or breaking news." "Important", along with "breaking", described the "news" aspect of the article, not the content of the article. And as old news that I already know very well, I didn't consider it "important or breaking news". In fact, I didn't consider it to be news at all.
Let's just call it a day... the sniping is getting tedious. And before you jump on that, I include the sniping from me as well.
"I'm not talking down to anybody, nor am I demanding that someone else comply with my idea of correct behavior."
I apologize for my attitude. I detected a slight bit of arrogance in your "old news" statement, but I realize it's hard to determine someone's tone using only written words.
"Include the whole statement when you're criticizing someone else's post."
I don't think it would matter. I read both of your statements entirely and they appear contradictory to me. Your explanation doesn't change this.
"I detected a slight bit of arrogance in your "old news" statement, but I realize it's hard to determine someone's tone using only written words."
Well, I wouldn't be totally honest if I said that I didn't intend for a bit of attitude to show through. It was directed at the article, not you (somewhat of a fine point, I realize, since you offered it for consideration). At any rate, I apologize for my attitude as well.
As for my statements, your interpretation wasn't my intended meaning... perhaps I should have expressed myself better. But I don't think further discussion would make much difference, so I'll pass on trying to explain further.
Sure it's relevant. RWD is better than FWD from a purely performance-oriented outlook. I don't think that was ever in doubt. The question is, does Acura need to resort to purpose-built designs to get enough "sportiness" into their product line? I rather doubt it. They seem to be doing just fine with FWD and AWD.
The Williams Honda? I watched Nigal Mansel rip up formula one in a Williams Honda. I can see were people are coming from when they desire a rear drive sports sedan from Acura. Honda can do it and they have spent the money in R&D to accomplish this and do it well. I think that for people like me and a majority the issue of front drive is not a major issue. The last two cars I have purchased are front drive and I have found them to be just fine for my transportation needs. But by the same token if Acura desires to be a serious sports sedan than they will have to go to rear drive. Without rear drive an Acura is just a fancy Accord when it comes to handling.
They are in totally different galaxies in the automotive universe. Acura would have a very hard time selling a RL for the price of the LS. Not to mention the advances in refinement, luxury features, and panache the LS affords you.
The RL, even the new one, will at best compete against the GS300/GS430. Acura has nothing on the drawing board to battle the LS. Toyota even has a 48V V12 already running in a Japanese Toyota. They are just waiting for the chance to market it here.
"Sure it's relevant. RWD is better than FWD from a purely performance-oriented outlook. I don't think that was ever in doubt. The question is, does Acura need to resort to purpose-built designs to get enough "sportiness" into their product line? I rather doubt it. They seem to be doing just fine with FWD and AWD."
The benefits of FWD are obvious and mostly cost related, but Acura is a sporty luxury car maker. So how exactly does using FWD platforms for the sake of platform sharing and saving money take precedence over competing with other luxury car makers? Yeah, they're coming with AWD, but that almost seems like the easy way out. That's what Ford did when they needed to turn the Mondeo, a FWD platform, into a Jaguar X-type. England would've nuked us if Ford tried to sell a FWD Jaguar, so woila, AWD. AWD can be fun, but it is not as fun as RWD. BMW purposely designed their AWD 3 series to still feel like a RWD car, apparently it's close, but not the same. Keep in mind that ANY performance oriented car with performance tires is going to need winter tires for winter climates. Just because an S4 is AWD doesn't mean it won't be flying into a ditch when it snows out.
"At least you're not being told that a magazine that didn't rate the Accord as tops must have gotten a fleet car that had been in an accident as in another Accord discussion group!!!"
That argument would be futile anyways because I can't think of a major comparison test the latest generation Accord hasn't won.
this "Without rear drive an Acura is just a fancy Accord when it comes to handling" I think, hits it right on the head.
When GM comes out and spends a buttload of money remaking Cadillac in a RWD image, you gotta know someone with their finger in the wind is getting a strong sense of market direction.
Of course, this begs the question, since most of the most popular Lexus offerings are merely fancy versions of Toyota products, does Acura really need to develop a seriously sporty RWD sedan platform (or two) to make tons of money? Maybe not. I think they might have a hard time living up to the image of the NSX (and for that matter, SELLING any of the fancy new '06) if they continue down the FWD path though.
as to this though "Toyota even has a 48V V12 already running in a Japanese Toyota. They are just waiting for the chance to market it here."
I am not so sure Toyota is chomping at the bit to bring out the Japan-market Century engine in any Lexus products. Word is the next LS will have a 5-liter V-8 in a hybrid powertrain with twin electric motors to produce a combined power rating of anywhere from 400-600 hp. And if the Volta ever makes it to production (please plase!) I would wonder at the use of that engine.
So Honda has managed to draw 300 hp from a 3.5L V-6 for this fall's new RL? Pretty impressive. Performance should be very good if SH-AWD really works as advertised and it has 50/50 torque split at launch from a dead stop. But it is also true this is still no true LS430/7-series fighter.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
There is no way the LS400/430 would be where it is today in relation to BMW and Mercedes if it were fwd. They used have Lincolns for that role and Cadillac has finally seen the light.
RWD like it or not is at least one of the prerequisites for the upper luxury class. Everyone knows (or at least I thought everyone did) that the Q45 is a victim of Infiniti's own marketing blunders. First rocks and trees and then a 1997 "Q41" model that was smaller, slower, more expensive and worse looking than the previous car. All of these things have ruined the "Q45" nameplate in the market, while Lexus stayed true to the original theme (a Japanese S-Class) from day one.
I also agree that the new RL however great it may be still won't be a S-Class/LS/7-Series competitor. Different cars, different purposes. It will match up with the E/GS/5/A6/M45/S-Type group of cars.
BMW and Mercedes offer awd to make their cars more attractive to people in snowier climates nothing more. Their awd systems are no match for Audi's Quattro in most cases.
Like it or not for Acura to compete past the lower and mid-level segments they'll have to do a rwd car and most likely with a V8 to be taken seriously.
Please don't associate BMW 7-series to Lexus LS430. One is a boat compared to the other, regardless of the wheels that drive it. I doubt anybody buys LS for its "handling prowess". Am I right, or wrong?
That says enough... I don't want to see Acura RL to be a LS competitor. I want to see RL to be BMW 545 challenger (745iL would be too large and expensive).
"That says enough... I don't want to see Acura RL to be a LS competitor. I want to see RL to be BMW 545 challenger (745iL would be too large and expensive)."
Agreed... I guess one of the things that puzzles me in this exchange is this attitude... "This is how BMW does it, so that's how Acura should do it too."
What happened to diversity? What happened to alternatives? Where is it written that every "premium brand" manufacturer must be in lock step with BMW? After all, BMW has its share of gaffes as well. For example, two extremely prominent ones that have been in the news for a couple of years are Chris Bangle and iDrive.
"What happened to diversity? What happened to alternatives?"
Are you saying the RL being FWD with a V6 for all these years was to be different and offer an alternative to the RWD cars?
"Where is it written that every "premium brand" manufacturer must be in lock step with BMW?"
It isn't written anywhere, but BMW is generally seen as the benchmark when it comes to sporty luxury sedans, is it not? Having said that, would it make sense for a company that builds sporty luxury sedans to completely ignore BMW?
"For example, two extremely prominent ones that have been in the news for a couple of years are Chris Bangle and iDrive."
Perfect opportunity to steal some of BMW's fire. As a BMW fan, I'm disapointed with what Bangle has done.
"Are you saying the RL being FWD with a V6 for all these years was to be different and offer an alternative to the RWD cars?"
Sure. That's certainly the message they're sending even now with the upcoming new RL. Remember that the RL is sized and priced to compete with the 5 Series, not the 7 Series. And as I understand it, the vast majority of 5 Series units are purchased with the six.
As hard as it may be for you to believe, the sun doesn't rise and set on BMW for everybody.
Having said that, would it make sense for a company that builds sporty luxury sedans to completely ignore BMW?
There certainly are middle ground positions between "completely ignoring" and "slavishly emulating", the latter position seeming to be the recommendation of the BMW fans on this forum. Just because an auto manufacturer doesn't try to match BMW model per model, configuration to configuration, doesn't mean that they're "completely ignoring" them.
"Perfect opportunity to steal some of BMW's fire. As a BMW fan, I'm disapointed with what Bangle has done."
Unless they have the "BMW killers" that you demand of them up their sleeve and ready to go in no more than a year or so, there's not enough time for Acura to take any significant advantage of this "opportunity". According to Autonews, BMW is already in the process of undoing Bangle's damage as soon as possible. A significantly updated (read de-Banglized) version of the 7 Series is expected sometime next year.
So Acura is supposed to slavishly emulate the RWD 5 Series? Once again demonstrating my earlier point about the unyielding and uncompromising attitudes displayed here. Anyway, I don't think that's necessary. With the significantly upgraded interior and equipment, much sportier styling, a MUCH more powerful 6-cyl. engine than the 5 Series' most powerful 6, and AWD, I think it's in a much better competitive position against the 5 Series than you do, especially with the current downtrend in 5 Series sales. Time will tell.
"Yeah, there is middle ground, and Acura is not there. Acura is way closer to "completely ignoring" BMW than they are "slavishly emulating" BMW."
IYHO, of course. Just because the results don't match comparably priced BMWs in design characteristics doesn't mean that Acura is "completely ignoring" BMW.
By the way, the latest rumor is that with the next generation LS, Lexus is going to take a serious shot at competing directly with BMW.
It will be fun watching BMW 7-series and Lexus LS guys take it on a track, after all they have got RWD. ;-)
I always thought Lexus wanted to have GS (and IS after that) compete with BMW and let LS work for those who prefer complete isolation. Even with GS, I think, the “disconnect” is a bit too much. I’m hoping the new RL is a driver’s car, and specs suggest that.
"The benefits of FWD are obvious and mostly cost related, but Acura is a sporty luxury car maker."
I think what you are failing to acknowledge is the difference between a "sports" car and a "sportee" car. Acura makes sportee cars, which places them between BMW and Lexus.
"So how exactly does using FWD platforms for the sake of platform sharing and saving money take precedence over competing with other luxury car makers? Yeah, they're coming with AWD, but that almost seems like the easy way out."
Lemme get this straight. Going with AWD is cheap and easy. Going to RWD is expensive and difficult. You're recommending RWD.
"Acura makes sportee cars, which places them between BMW and Lexus."
IMHO,(seems I have to put that in there) Acura isn't anywhere near Lexus or BMW for higher end vehicles, let alone in between them. Obviously, you and many others don't agree with me, so lets leave it at that.
"Lemme get this straight. Going with AWD is cheap and easy. Going to RWD is expensive and difficult. You're recommending RWD."
Yup, converting a FWD platform to AWD is easier than starting over with a RWD platform, and yes, I prefer RWD. IMHO, AWD is more liability than asset, ESPECIALLY if you live in a climate with no snow.
NOW you're talking! A WRX fighter with a 220 hp version of the K20A and four doors. Put in a really slick Honda six speed, give it EX trim and a proper ground package, and sell it for around $23K sticker. I think it would sell like gangbusters. Plus there would be the added advantage that the SI wouldn't have to fill the shoes of the sportiest member of the Civic family.
newcar: I think possibly all varmint meant was that on a scale of sportiness, BMW and Lexus are widely separated, with Acura somewhere in the middle. I would agree with that.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
That is exactly what first popped into my mind. If Honda did it for around 23K that could almost make WRX a footnote in history. How much fun would the tuners have with that?
Honda does sell a 2.0 version of the Civic sedan in other markets. That part isn't a problem.
That Civic does not have AWD and it certainly doesn't have SH-AWD. The trouble with SH-AWD being that it weighs an estimated 220 lbs. Not bad as far as most other full-time systems go, but that's quite a bit of weight to add to a car with a 2.0L. This part is the problem (IMHO).
Honda has been using RT4WD with the Civic platform for several years (Stream, CR-V, Element, etc.). RT4WD only adds about 110-120 lbs, which is much more feasible. However, it's not a proactive system and would not benefit handling the way that a sporty car would require.
I don't think Honda should try to go head to head with the WRX and EVO niche market. Keep their budget performance options under $20K and leave them FWD.
For the mid to high $20K range, I think a TSX coupe with SH-AWD is the way to go. Eliminate some weight by shortening the wheelbase and cutting down on rear seat accommodations. The weight would be added back on with SH-AWD, but the torquier 2.4L engine is better equipped to handle that weight. I expect they can tweak the engine for another 20-40 hp at the top end while they're at it.
An Accord Coupe with SH-AWD and the 3.0L would also be quite the darling. But, for marketing reasons, I think Acura needs to keep the SH-AWD system to themselves for a while. It just doesn't bode well to have Hondas dusting their Acura brethren.
"Eliminate some weight by shortening the wheelbase and cutting down on rear seat accommodations."
That's the thing... having to sacrifice rear seat accommodations. It'd be giving up one thing that Honda has always been applauded for. I'm all for it in a large car where it doesn't make that much of a difference, but in a midsizer and smaller you can really tell.
In I believe it was the March Motor Trend there is a shootout between a Chevy Malibu, Toyota Camry and a Honda Accord. A like optioned Malibu goes for over $3,000 less than an Accord... Is this what you are talking about?
Malibu LT was far from “like equipped” to Accord EXV6. The latter had $2K on NAV system as well. Drop it, and the price is close. The market may be much lower on the Malibu (due to rebates/incentives), but I would still get Accord over it (for that matter, over just about any car in the class)
Carlismo - I'm not so sure that Honda has always been well known for rear seat accommodations. I mean, the Integra, Prelude, and even the new RSX are not exactly spacious. The Accord Coupe is decent, but it's kind of an anomaly in the coupe line.
Anyway, I suggest going with a coupe because weight savings are important if you're going to add 200+ lbs to a car. Something's gotta give. If you put a premium on backseat space, a TL would be the car to shop.
Robertsmx - Not just any other car! I'd take the 'bu over a Taurus and maybe even the Sonata (hate Hyundai engines). The 'bu has a few things going for it. Like you, I'd prefer an Accord, Mazda6, Altima, or Camry, but the Chevy isn't a tragedy. In many ways it's "almost there".
Much like TL and CL. Although I wished CL was smaller and lighter version of TL. Instead, AHM decided to give it nearly the same size, and less than impressive styling for a coupe. RSX and TSX could do it, and more successfully.
It just sounds redundant to call... Accord "sedan" and Accord "coupe", or G35 "sedan" and G35 "coupe". While sharing the powertrain and platform, the models (TSX and RSX) could still be very different, and be independent of each other more than they could as a single model.
I would like to see RSX stay in the lineup, but it isn't serving the purpose well enough the way it is. It is a fine car, but being underappreciated lately, and lack of lower trims (rightfully) that Integra did, is keeping the sales numbers down as well.
on-line the other day where someone was cross-shopping the RSX with the Celica and the Mazda3. Which is similar to what I did. And really, if Acura wants to upscale the brand image, they can't have their lowest models competing directly with non-premium compacts with prices starting in the mid-teens. No offense to RSX, since I actually bought one. Fun to drive and cheap to operate, and I certainly wouldn't have cared if it had been a Honda instead of an Acura.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
As I understand it, the Integra was brought into the Acura line just in case the Legend flopped. The dealers knew they could sell a small Honda with sporty handling. They weren't so sure that a big Honda like the Legend was going to sell.
I assume that when the Integra "took off" with the youth crowd, they had little choice but to keep bringing it back year after year.
IMHO, the RSX is a much more deserving vehicle for the Acura badge. It's more refined, better equipped, and such. But I agree that it's still not a luxury car. As has been said many times before, it might be time to retire the small global car platform from the Acura line and use the TSX as the base for their next entry level coupe.
One of the main reasons that the RSX seems "out of place" in a premium marque such as Acura is that no other premium marque markets something comparable in size in NA (not including the Mini, which isn't marketed as a BMW).
However, Audi has indicated that they will be bringing the A3 to NA, and BMW has considered doing the same with the 1 Series. Both would be in the same general size and price range as the RSX, although they're 4 door hatchbacks as opposed to a 2 door sport coupe. But if those cars were introduced in NA and were successful, the RSX size and price range would be "legitimized" for a premium marque. However, Acura would probably be forced to come up with a more direct competitor, as the RSX doesn't have comparable utility, and the TSX is too large and expensive by comparison.
Maybe something based on the Euro-spec Civic 5 door Type-S.
that integra had some of its best years at the very same time the 318ti was failing in the market...did integra and then RSX sell better than the C230 coupe?
It may say something about the expectations people have in this price range. Which may highlight once again why it is dangerous for a supposedly premium marque to be playing around in such low-priced terrirtory.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Yeah, Infiniti also stuck a toe into the shallow end of the luxury pool with the G20. Acura has the EL up in Canada, too. Of all the low-end luxury cars only the Integra made a significant splash. And I agree with Nippon that the reason is probably the fact that it was cheap and not especially luxurious (not very Acura-esque).
I think that the greater focus on luxury (relatively speaking) for the RSX and the corresponding higher price is probably the death of the car.
On the other hand, I can't blame Acura for trying. Ultimately, I think they need to eliminate the lowest end of their line, but they'd have been crucified if they just terminated the Integra and left no replacement.
My suggestion (because these guys care about what I write) would be to rescue the Civic Si or CR-X first. Let either of those cars carry the torch. Then move the RSX to the TSX platform.
what of the Civic SI now, given that AHM has stopped importing the EP hatch from England? I hope there are more sporty cars in Civic's future. I kinda doubt they would bring back the CRX though. Two seaters have a limited audience.
There seems to be a lot of consensus in here that the next RSX should be a two-door on the TSX platform. I think that would be good for the brand image, although if that were what it were now, I would not just have bought one.
How come Honda can't have sport wagons like everyone else?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
"How come Honda can't have sport wagons like everyone else?"
Not to put too fine a point on it, but why bother? Both of the Lexus Sportcross wagons sold here in the US have failed to raise many eyebrows or pad any wallets. Volvo is about the only one that does brisk business in wagons. And that's only because they have a history with them.
Since this thread started up in part because of sagging Accord sales, it's interesting to note that Accord sales for May in the US increased by 21.6% over last year, while Civic sales increased 26.9% over last year. That's with no increase in incentives, no buyer direct rebates.
Accord sales had enough of a boost to bring YTD sales within 3% of 2003. That's a significant improvement over April YTD sales which were down 9%.
It's also interesting to note the trends... after months and months of cars downtrending and SUVs uptrending, May showed the reverse. Pilot, CR-V and MDX all were very slightly down. Perhaps people are beginning to adjust their sights as to the type of vehicle they want to drive in the face of the soaring gas prices.
Anyway, there's lots of time left this year, and the Accord could lag again or surge again... who knows? But May is a positive sign, an indication that things may not be as dire for the Accord as some seem to think.
it's kinda interesting, that with all those surveys and people saying they would not change their habits until gas was $5/gallon, they have begun instead to change them at $2.50 (what it costs in CA now).
May sales were up tremendously for all carmakers, from what little I have seen on the news. So part of the upswing at Honda may just be due to everyone deciding it was time for a new car last month! :-)
varmint: OK, how about "sport hatches" then? The 4-door variety, like everyone else seems to be having so much success with...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
It's affecting me. If my Infiniti weren't in the body shop, I'd be driving it more and my Navigator less right now. I'm even looking around for a Sedan replacement when the lease is up. Not sure I'll be happy that way, but I'm considering it.
Nippon - Okay, I see what you mean. When you asked about sport wagons, I was thinking of something bigger like an Accord, TL, or TSX based wagon. My bad.
Yeah, a small five-door hatch would be a nice addition to the Honda line. Something along the lines of the Matrix or Protege5. They'd have to get the styling right, though. While I personally find the current Si look to be kinda nifty, it isn't calling any attention in the market.
Anybody see the rumor about Honda cancelling the S2000 and HSC project? What do you think, good business sense or blasphemy?
how many times is that now that the HSC project has been cancelled?! ;-)
They should just keep selling the S2000 for a few years - no need to update a car like this a whole lot for a while, especially with all the early updates they gave it last year. They gotta have something really sporty in the line - they are Honda for goodness' sake!
Honda has new styling for the '05 hatches in Europe, and I would still love to see them bring that 5-door Civic over here.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Sometimes I don't understand why Honda offers more variety in lower volume markets than in its high volume market.
Honda launched "Avancier" in 1999 for the Japanese market, a largish (American Accord size) wagon in a market that favors higher volume for smaller wagons. This car was offered with AWD, and choice of two engines (same as 1998-2002 American Accord, 2.3/I-4 with 150 HP and 3.0/V6 with 215 HP). Both engines mated to 5-speed automatic with SportShift.
While Avancier may not have had the sales success of Civic and Accord selling at the pace of 300-400K units/year, I’m sure American market would be several times larger than it is in Japan for a car like it. And ofcourse, the car is no longer sold, and has been replaced by the current Accord wagon (which also existed in Japan alongside the Avancier, but with choice of 150 HP 2.3/I-4 SOHC or 200 HP 2.3/I-4 DOHC).
Comments
Sure it contains facts, and also the priority that the author places on those facts. That doesn't make that article the definitive statement about automotive engineering. He considers some things to be mission critical for a car. Not everybody considers those same things to be mission critical.
As I said, it's old news and it doesn't change a thing.
At least you're not being told that a magazine that didn't rate the Accord as tops must have gotten a fleet car that had been in an accident as in another Accord discussion group!!!
Carry on.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Sure it contains facts, and also the priority that the author places on those facts. That doesn't make that article the definitive statement about automotive engineering. He considers some things to be mission critical for a car. Not everybody considers those same things to be mission critical.
As I said, it's nothing new and it doesn't change a thing.
"I'm just saying that the article is not important"
What exactly ARE you trying to say?"
Include the whole statement when you're criticizing someone else's post. I didn't say "the article is not important", I said " the article is not important or breaking news." "Important", along with "breaking", described the "news" aspect of the article, not the content of the article. And as old news that I already know very well, I didn't consider it "important or breaking news". In fact, I didn't consider it to be news at all.
Let's just call it a day... the sniping is getting tedious. And before you jump on that, I include the sniping from me as well.
I apologize for my attitude. I detected a slight bit of arrogance in your "old news" statement, but I realize it's hard to determine someone's tone using only written words.
"Include the whole statement when you're criticizing someone else's post."
I don't think it would matter. I read both of your statements entirely and they appear contradictory to me. Your explanation doesn't change this.
Well, I wouldn't be totally honest if I said that I didn't intend for a bit of attitude to show through. It was directed at the article, not you (somewhat of a fine point, I realize, since you offered it for consideration). At any rate, I apologize for my attitude as well.
As for my statements, your interpretation wasn't my intended meaning... perhaps I should have expressed myself better. But I don't think further discussion would make much difference, so I'll pass on trying to explain further.
The RL, even the new one, will at best compete against the GS300/GS430. Acura has nothing on the drawing board to battle the LS. Toyota even has a 48V V12 already running in a Japanese Toyota. They are just waiting for the chance to market it here.
The benefits of FWD are obvious and mostly cost related, but Acura is a sporty luxury car maker. So how exactly does using FWD platforms for the sake of platform sharing and saving money take precedence over competing with other luxury car makers? Yeah, they're coming with AWD, but that almost seems like the easy way out. That's what Ford did when they needed to turn the Mondeo, a FWD platform, into a Jaguar X-type. England would've nuked us if Ford tried to sell a FWD Jaguar, so woila, AWD. AWD can be fun, but it is not as fun as RWD. BMW purposely designed their AWD 3 series to still feel like a RWD car, apparently it's close, but not the same. Keep in mind that ANY performance oriented car with performance tires is going to need winter tires for winter climates. Just because an S4 is AWD doesn't mean it won't be flying into a ditch when it snows out.
That argument would be futile anyways because I can't think of a major comparison test the latest generation Accord hasn't won.
this
"Without rear drive an Acura is just a fancy Accord when it comes to handling"
I think, hits it right on the head.
When GM comes out and spends a buttload of money remaking Cadillac in a RWD image, you gotta know someone with their finger in the wind is getting a strong sense of market direction.
Of course, this begs the question, since most of the most popular Lexus offerings are merely fancy versions of Toyota products, does Acura really need to develop a seriously sporty RWD sedan platform (or two) to make tons of money? Maybe not. I think they might have a hard time living up to the image of the NSX (and for that matter, SELLING any of the fancy new '06) if they continue down the FWD path though.
as to this though
"Toyota even has a 48V V12 already running in a Japanese Toyota. They are just waiting for the chance to market it here."
I am not so sure Toyota is chomping at the bit to bring out the Japan-market Century engine in any Lexus products. Word is the next LS will have a 5-liter V-8 in a hybrid powertrain with twin electric motors to produce a combined power rating of anywhere from 400-600 hp. And if the Volta ever makes it to production (please plase!) I would wonder at the use of that engine.
So Honda has managed to draw 300 hp from a 3.5L V-6 for this fall's new RL? Pretty impressive. Performance should be very good if SH-AWD really works as advertised and it has 50/50 torque split at launch from a dead stop. But it is also true this is still no true LS430/7-series fighter.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
There is no way the LS400/430 would be where it is today in relation to BMW and Mercedes if it were fwd. They used have Lincolns for that role and Cadillac has finally seen the light.
RWD like it or not is at least one of the prerequisites for the upper luxury class. Everyone knows (or at least I thought everyone did) that the Q45 is a victim of Infiniti's own marketing blunders. First rocks and trees and then a 1997 "Q41" model that was smaller, slower, more expensive and worse looking than the previous car. All of these things have ruined the "Q45" nameplate in the market, while Lexus stayed true to the original theme (a Japanese S-Class) from day one.
I also agree that the new RL however great it may be still won't be a S-Class/LS/7-Series competitor. Different cars, different purposes. It will match up with the E/GS/5/A6/M45/S-Type group of cars.
BMW and Mercedes offer awd to make their cars more attractive to people in snowier climates nothing more. Their awd systems are no match for Audi's Quattro in most cases.
Like it or not for Acura to compete past the lower and mid-level segments they'll have to do a rwd car and most likely with a V8 to be taken seriously.
M
That says enough... I don't want to see Acura RL to be a LS competitor. I want to see RL to be BMW 545 challenger (745iL would be too large and expensive).
Agreed... I guess one of the things that puzzles me in this exchange is this attitude... "This is how BMW does it, so that's how Acura should do it too."
What happened to diversity? What happened to alternatives? Where is it written that every "premium brand" manufacturer must be in lock step with BMW? After all, BMW has its share of gaffes as well. For example, two extremely prominent ones that have been in the news for a couple of years are Chris Bangle and iDrive.
By the way, the latest rumor is that with the next generation LS, Lexus is going to take a serious shot at competing directly with BMW.
Are you saying the RL being FWD with a V6 for all these years was to be different and offer an alternative to the RWD cars?
"Where is it written that every "premium brand" manufacturer must be in lock step with BMW?"
It isn't written anywhere, but BMW is generally seen as the benchmark when it comes to sporty luxury sedans, is it not? Having said that, would it make sense for a company that builds sporty luxury sedans to completely ignore BMW?
"For example, two extremely prominent ones that have been in the news for a couple of years are Chris Bangle and iDrive."
Perfect opportunity to steal some of BMW's fire. As a BMW fan, I'm disapointed with what Bangle has done.
"Are you saying the RL being FWD with a V6 for all these years was to be different and offer an alternative to the RWD cars?"
Sure. That's certainly the message they're sending even now with the upcoming new RL. Remember that the RL is sized and priced to compete with the 5 Series, not the 7 Series. And as I understand it, the vast majority of 5 Series units are purchased with the six.
As hard as it may be for you to believe, the sun doesn't rise and set on BMW for everybody.
Having said that, would it make sense for a company that builds sporty luxury sedans to completely ignore BMW?
There certainly are middle ground positions between "completely ignoring" and "slavishly emulating", the latter position seeming to be the recommendation of the BMW fans on this forum. Just because an auto manufacturer doesn't try to match BMW model per model, configuration to configuration, doesn't mean that they're "completely ignoring" them.
"Perfect opportunity to steal some of BMW's fire. As a BMW fan, I'm disapointed with what Bangle has done."
Unless they have the "BMW killers" that you demand of them up their sleeve and ready to go in no more than a year or so, there's not enough time for Acura to take any significant advantage of this "opportunity". According to Autonews, BMW is already in the process of undoing Bangle's damage as soon as possible. A significantly updated (read de-Banglized) version of the 7 Series is expected sometime next year.
and they're all RWD.
"There certainly are middle ground positions between "completely ignoring" and "slavishly emulating".
Yeah, there is middle ground, and Acura is not there. Acura is way closer to "completely ignoring" BMW than they are "slavishly emulating" BMW.
So Acura is supposed to slavishly emulate the RWD 5 Series? Once again demonstrating my earlier point about the unyielding and uncompromising attitudes displayed here. Anyway, I don't think that's necessary. With the significantly upgraded interior and equipment, much sportier styling, a MUCH more powerful 6-cyl. engine than the 5 Series' most powerful 6, and AWD, I think it's in a much better competitive position against the 5 Series than you do, especially with the current downtrend in 5 Series sales. Time will tell.
"Yeah, there is middle ground, and Acura is not there. Acura is way closer to "completely ignoring" BMW than they are "slavishly emulating" BMW."
IYHO, of course. Just because the results don't match comparably priced BMWs in design characteristics doesn't mean that Acura is "completely ignoring" BMW.
It will be fun watching BMW 7-series and Lexus LS guys take it on a track, after all they have got RWD. ;-)
I always thought Lexus wanted to have GS (and IS after that) compete with BMW and let LS work for those who prefer complete isolation. Even with GS, I think, the “disconnect” is a bit too much. I’m hoping the new RL is a driver’s car, and specs suggest that.
I think what you are failing to acknowledge is the difference between a "sports" car and a "sportee" car. Acura makes sportee cars, which places them between BMW and Lexus.
"So how exactly does using FWD platforms for the sake of platform sharing and saving money take precedence over competing with other luxury car makers? Yeah, they're coming with AWD, but that almost seems like the easy way out."
Lemme get this straight. Going with AWD is cheap and easy. Going to RWD is expensive and difficult. You're recommending RWD.
IMHO,(seems I have to put that in there) Acura isn't anywhere near Lexus or BMW for higher end vehicles, let alone in between them. Obviously, you and many others don't agree with me, so lets leave it at that.
"Lemme get this straight. Going with AWD is cheap and easy. Going to RWD is expensive and difficult. You're recommending RWD."
Yup, converting a FWD platform to AWD is easier than starting over with a RWD platform, and yes, I prefer RWD. IMHO, AWD is more liability than asset, ESPECIALLY if you live in a climate with no snow.
The Civic is a Civic, CR-V, Element. Why not a 2.0 AWD Civic sized sport sedan.
newcar: I think possibly all varmint meant was that on a scale of sportiness, BMW and Lexus are widely separated, with Acura somewhere in the middle. I would agree with that.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
"Why not a 2.0 AWD Civic sized sport sedan."
The Acura EL (with upgrades).
Honda does sell a 2.0 version of the Civic sedan in other markets. That part isn't a problem.
That Civic does not have AWD and it certainly doesn't have SH-AWD. The trouble with SH-AWD being that it weighs an estimated 220 lbs. Not bad as far as most other full-time systems go, but that's quite a bit of weight to add to a car with a 2.0L. This part is the problem (IMHO).
Honda has been using RT4WD with the Civic platform for several years (Stream, CR-V, Element, etc.). RT4WD only adds about 110-120 lbs, which is much more feasible. However, it's not a proactive system and would not benefit handling the way that a sporty car would require.
I don't think Honda should try to go head to head with the WRX and EVO niche market. Keep their budget performance options under $20K and leave them FWD.
For the mid to high $20K range, I think a TSX coupe with SH-AWD is the way to go. Eliminate some weight by shortening the wheelbase and cutting down on rear seat accommodations. The weight would be added back on with SH-AWD, but the torquier 2.4L engine is better equipped to handle that weight. I expect they can tweak the engine for another 20-40 hp at the top end while they're at it.
An Accord Coupe with SH-AWD and the 3.0L would also be quite the darling. But, for marketing reasons, I think Acura needs to keep the SH-AWD system to themselves for a while. It just doesn't bode well to have Hondas dusting their Acura brethren.
That's the thing... having to sacrifice rear seat accommodations. It'd be giving up one thing that Honda has always been applauded for. I'm all for it in a large car where it doesn't make that much of a difference, but in a midsizer and smaller you can really tell.
Anyway, I suggest going with a coupe because weight savings are important if you're going to add 200+ lbs to a car. Something's gotta give. If you put a premium on backseat space, a TL would be the car to shop.
Robertsmx - Not just any other car! I'd take the 'bu over a Taurus and maybe even the Sonata (hate Hyundai engines). The 'bu has a few things going for it. Like you, I'd prefer an Accord, Mazda6, Altima, or Camry, but the Chevy isn't a tragedy. In many ways it's "almost there".
Thats where I think the next RSX should play a role. TSX can continue to be a little on the practical side, and leave the rest for RSX.
In other words, move RSX to share platform & engine w/TSX, and throw in SH-AWD, while keeping the curb weight under 3000 lb.
What's the difference between a TSX coupe and an RSX using the same platform and engine as the TSX?
It just sounds redundant to call... Accord "sedan" and Accord "coupe", or G35 "sedan" and G35 "coupe". While sharing the powertrain and platform, the models (TSX and RSX) could still be very different, and be independent of each other more than they could as a single model.
I would like to see RSX stay in the lineup, but it isn't serving the purpose well enough the way it is. It is a fine car, but being underappreciated lately, and lack of lower trims (rightfully) that Integra did, is keeping the sales numbers down as well.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I assume that when the Integra "took off" with the youth crowd, they had little choice but to keep bringing it back year after year.
IMHO, the RSX is a much more deserving vehicle for the Acura badge. It's more refined, better equipped, and such. But I agree that it's still not a luxury car. As has been said many times before, it might be time to retire the small global car platform from the Acura line and use the TSX as the base for their next entry level coupe.
However, Audi has indicated that they will be bringing the A3 to NA, and BMW has considered doing the same with the 1 Series. Both would be in the same general size and price range as the RSX, although they're 4 door hatchbacks as opposed to a 2 door sport coupe. But if those cars were introduced in NA and were successful, the RSX size and price range would be "legitimized" for a premium marque. However, Acura would probably be forced to come up with a more direct competitor, as the RSX doesn't have comparable utility, and the TSX is too large and expensive by comparison.
Maybe something based on the Euro-spec Civic 5 door Type-S.
It may say something about the expectations people have in this price range. Which may highlight once again why it is dangerous for a supposedly premium marque to be playing around in such low-priced terrirtory.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I think that the greater focus on luxury (relatively speaking) for the RSX and the corresponding higher price is probably the death of the car.
On the other hand, I can't blame Acura for trying. Ultimately, I think they need to eliminate the lowest end of their line, but they'd have been crucified if they just terminated the Integra and left no replacement.
My suggestion (because these guys care about what I write) would be to rescue the Civic Si or CR-X first. Let either of those cars carry the torch. Then move the RSX to the TSX platform.
There seems to be a lot of consensus in here that the next RSX should be a two-door on the TSX platform. I think that would be good for the brand image, although if that were what it were now, I would not just have bought one.
How come Honda can't have sport wagons like everyone else?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Not to put too fine a point on it, but why bother? Both of the Lexus Sportcross wagons sold here in the US have failed to raise many eyebrows or pad any wallets. Volvo is about the only one that does brisk business in wagons. And that's only because they have a history with them.
Accord sales had enough of a boost to bring YTD sales within 3% of 2003. That's a significant improvement over April YTD sales which were down 9%.
It's also interesting to note the trends... after months and months of cars downtrending and SUVs uptrending, May showed the reverse. Pilot, CR-V and MDX all were very slightly down. Perhaps people are beginning to adjust their sights as to the type of vehicle they want to drive in the face of the soaring gas prices.
Anyway, there's lots of time left this year, and the Accord could lag again or surge again... who knows? But May is a positive sign, an indication that things may not be as dire for the Accord as some seem to think.
May sales were up tremendously for all carmakers, from what little I have seen on the news. So part of the upswing at Honda may just be due to everyone deciding it was time for a new car last month! :-)
varmint: OK, how about "sport hatches" then? The 4-door variety, like everyone else seems to be having so much success with...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Yeah, a small five-door hatch would be a nice addition to the Honda line. Something along the lines of the Matrix or Protege5. They'd have to get the styling right, though. While I personally find the current Si look to be kinda nifty, it isn't calling any attention in the market.
Anybody see the rumor about Honda cancelling the S2000 and HSC project? What do you think, good business sense or blasphemy?
They should just keep selling the S2000 for a few years - no need to update a car like this a whole lot for a while, especially with all the early updates they gave it last year. They gotta have something really sporty in the line - they are Honda for goodness' sake!
Honda has new styling for the '05 hatches in Europe, and I would still love to see them bring that 5-door Civic over here.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Honda launched "Avancier" in 1999 for the Japanese market, a largish (American Accord size) wagon in a market that favors higher volume for smaller wagons. This car was offered with AWD, and choice of two engines (same as 1998-2002 American Accord, 2.3/I-4 with 150 HP and 3.0/V6 with 215 HP). Both engines mated to 5-speed automatic with SportShift.
Avancier: Front View
Avancier: Side View
Avancier: Rear View
While Avancier may not have had the sales success of Civic and Accord selling at the pace of 300-400K units/year, I’m sure American market would be several times larger than it is in Japan for a car like it. And ofcourse, the car is no longer sold, and has been replaced by the current Accord wagon (which also existed in Japan alongside the Avancier, but with choice of 150 HP 2.3/I-4 SOHC or 200 HP 2.3/I-4 DOHC).